View Full Version : Canadian GP: Winners & Losers + Conclusions
vcs316
14th June 2010, 15:43
It was an epic encounter, with heroes and villains, late race muggings and no groundhogs were killed in the making of this race...
Star of the Race
Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 1st
Hamilton drove a far more controlled race than usual - he had to, given the propensity of the tyre to become "a lovely Wensleydale, Grommit" halfway round the circuit. Despite being given a strategy that depended on an early Safety Car (and not getting one) he pulled his McLaren through to win. Clearly both he and Jenson could put in fastest laps at will, depending on how much they wanted to take out of their tyres at any one time, so it was a day for patience. There was just that one Taz moment when he came out of the pits with Fernando and you thought "for pity's sake, let Alonso go, you're not going to win that one". And he did.
It would have been so much easier for Hamilton to sit behind Webber when he caught him at the end, but Lewis went straight on through. When Button got past Alonso he edged out an unassailable gap on chewed up old tyres.
Overtaking Move of the Race
Lap 56: Jenson Button, McLaren, on Fernando Alonso, Ferrari for P2
Felipe Massa also did a cheeky little move on Adrian Sutil when they came across a backmarker, which was reminiscent of his double overtake into the Casino Hairpin of a couple of years ago. However he and Sutil were nose to tail at the time.
Button came from over a second back to sweep past Alonso as the Ferrari misjudged his closing speed on Chandhok's Hispania and Button pounced. It was such an unexpected move that F1 TV didn't even realise it had happened till afterwards and had to review all the tapes to get it on screen.
As for Jenson's race it showed the virtue of patience that maybe Michael Schumacher could have learnt from. When Mark Webber came past him on Lap 5, Jenson was still in front, Mark was about the same distance behind the McLaren as he was behind Vettel when Vettel moved over on him.
Button bowed to the inevitable, braked early and let him through. Had he tried to contest the corner with a bit of Schumi/Kubica rallycross then he would probably have thrown away what proved to be a P2 finish.
Winners
Fernando Alonso, Ferrari, 3rd
Outwardly he looked a bit grumpy but that was just Fernando masking his inner delirium at finishing on the podium. As he said, after being such a long way back in Turkey this was a Re-sult! And yes it was true, he could easily have won it if he hadn't been held up on Lap 27 and that would have made it a Re-sult and a half.
From battling with the No. 2 Renault driver to watching the Red Bulls in his mirrors is quite a turn round from race to race and something that gives us hope for the rest of the season.
Nico Rosberg, Mercedes, 6th
Nico recovered from a poor start to keep his car away from most of the conflict and also the cameras.
Robert Kubica, Renault, 7th
Kubica entering the pitlane at speed in front of Sutil was one of those - I can't quite believe I've just seen that - moments. He was reprimanded for it, because it had all the portents of being like a Scalextric crossover track piece where the cars swap lanes and hit each other.
It would have been interesting to know how much performance Robert lost from his front wing damage (for further discussion of the rallycross section of the race see below) and hence the ultimate power of the Renault on the Circuit Gilles.
Sebastian Buemi, Toro Rosso, 8th
Buemi led the race for one fleeting lap and capitalised on having the right tyres on his car at the start.
Force Indias, 9th and 10th
Liuzzi was too optimistic at the start at the start and paid a heavy price for it. Sutil was more measured against Kubica but was the victim of some bad luck - he could have been 6th or 7th but for that puncture. In the end they stole some points after mugging an old man on the final lap, but it must have been a roller-coaster ride in the garage.
Rubens Barrichello, Williams
He may have got another of his dodgy starts (those pesky clutch bite points - what ARE they like?) and he may have finished in a remote Himalayan village of a position in the race, but on Lap 59 he completed his 15,000th lap of a grand prix, which is a pretty good milestone. Pity he still hasn't learnt how to get the car off the line.
Former team-mate Schumi also beat Riccardo Patrese's 255 GP starts. No mean feat, given that Michael's got potentially another two-and-a-half seasons to go.
F1
The Canadian GP was the perfect advert for the sport. Not only was it a great race, it was a sold-out race. Not even Monaco was sold out this year. With the new American GP in Austin, Texas, Montreal will still be the destination of choice for north North American F1 fans. Spa, Suzuka, Silverstone, Monza, Monaco and Montreal should be rubber-stamped into any F1 calendar.
Losers
Red Bull Strategy/Reliability
Going into the weekend they probably thought they were only going to be looking at third or fourth place - so fourth and fifth shouldn't really be enough to set them in the Losers column...?
The fact is they lost two gearboxes over the weekend - one on Mark's car that showed up in the Saturday oil analysis, and one on Seb's car that almost put him out of the race (plus a new clutch and steering wheel for Vettel in parc ferme). Had Felipe Massa not carved into Tonio Liuzzi (and vice versa) and had Michael been a bit more even tempered about letting Kubica through, then they might have been staring at seventh and eighth.
Michael Schumacher
Martin Brundle said he drove "appallingly" and he certainly didn't make any friends out there. Going into Turn 1 it looked like he hit Kubica up the rear (later in the race when Sutil was following him, you could see something swinging around at the back of Kubica's car).
The incident with Kubica when he emerged from the pits was hard to comprehend from a driver of Michael's experience. Kubica was coming through on warm tyres and had the line on the inside. He needed to be given some room at least but was put on the grass. Had Robert done a Petrov then and slewed his car (into the barriers) it could have been Olivier Panis's accident all over again.
As it transpired at the next corner, trying to go through a turn side-by side saw them both across the grass and Michael get a puncture from it, so it not only looked bad for Michael, it was self-destructive to boot.
With Massa he sustained no damage but Felipe was closing so quickly and Schumi's tyres were going off so fast that it wouldn't have hurt Michael to just let him go instead of blocking him on the straight.
Finally with the Force Indias he got severely mugged on the final lap, though Liuzzi probably thought it was justified having been kept behind by virtue of the Mercedes missing the final chicane to keep in front of him.
Felipe Massa
Given the unpunished antics of some of those on track it was slightly bizarre that Massa should end up with one of the worst a 20-second penalty for braking the pitlane speed limit by 3mph. "More sinned against than sinning" would be the theme of his GP. At first sight it looked like he was trying to crowd Jenson Button out at the start, but the replays showed that Liuzzi tried a move that was never going to come off into Turn 1 and the Force India should have settled back and accepted P6.
Massa got a lightning start and drove some phenomenally quick laps to put himself into contention along with a bit of cheeky opportunism to get past Sutil. It would have been interesting to ride with a number of cars for the entire race and Felipe was one of them. Getting put off the road by a man you admire is not a great way to end the race, but it was a hell of a journey.
Ron Dennis
It was good to see Ron back at the track in Montreal. Unfortunately they switched the microphone on and ruined it.
Safety Car Fans
We were on a promise and look what happened. There was a 75% chance of a Safety Car but we all knew that once we'd played out the Kamui Kobayashi card, it was less and less likely. Michael tried his best for us. Massa and Liuzzi had their moments and you can never discount Petrov, but no, a Safety Car free race. We'll have eight in Valencia.
Andrew Davies(PF1)
vcs316
14th June 2010, 15:44
Instead of repeating the obvious plaudits for Lewis, don't forget to give credit to Jenson and Fernando. On another day...
McLaren Have The Edge. If Only For Now
Tis the season of the quickly forgotten. Monaco, scene of Red Bull dominance and the prompter of 2010 obituaries, already seems like months ago. Bahrain? Was that really this year? F1 is a sport based on speed, but rarely, if ever, has it moved as quickly as this.
First it was Fernando Alonso to be billed as favourite for the title. Then it was Sebastian Vettel. Then Mark Webber. And now, as the fifth different driver to top the standings this year after eight events, it's Lewis Hamilton's turn. The balance of power seems to be shifting with every race. At present, the advantage rests with McLaren and Hamilton has the momentum, but there are mere fractions separating the three front-running teams. Even after consecutive one-twos for Macca, what's the betting on a Ferrari victory in Valencia and a Red Bull romp in Silverstone?
They could certainly do with the fillip. The post-Monaco concern that the Bulls had propelled themselves into a league of their own making has given way to the worry that they might have already missed their time. Both McLaren, expected to deliver another radical upgrade for Silverstone and to find Valencia to their liking, and Ferrari have evidently beaten the Bulls in the latest stage of the ongoing Development War. Nor do their problems end there. Seb Vettel is still off colour, reliability woes are becoming habitual, the mud of Turkey will stick for a while yet, and their tyre gamble this weekend backfired to costly effect.
Who'd be a team principal? Christian Horner must have been tearing his hair out on the pitwall when Vettel, supposed to nursing his stricken car to the end of the race, demanded to be informed what time had been set as the fastest lap of the race. Responsibility is a strength that he still lacks and his youthful age is no excuse. Can anyone imagine Fernando Alonso asking after the fastest lap in an identical situation when he was 22? In the circumstances of Red Bull's current predicament, Horner's response of "Don't even think about it" was admirably restrained.
Jenson Is A Fair Match For Lewis On Race Day
As the plaudits for the outstanding Lewis will be both bountiful and comprehensive, a word or two instead for Jenson Button. It is an entirely subjective viewpoint, but the World Champion is impressing more so this season than he did in his title campaign. Even in the wake of consecutive victories for Hamilton, it should not be overlooked that Jenson finished scarcely a second behind Lewis in both races. The distance between them at the finishing line was no more than the distance between them at the start of both races when Hamilton began on the front row and Button from fourth. He is only losing out to Hamilton on the Sundays because of the scale of his defeats on Saturday.
Yet that is not to diminish Hamilton's race performance, either. His move past Alonso was the equal of Button's and the critical lap in their in-house battle occurred with six remaining when, having been told over the radio that "Jenson has Fernando just behind him so is pushing hard", he responded with the fastest lap of the race on tyres that had already churned out more than 20 circuits. So much for the notion that Hamilton is incapable of nursing his tyres. Is it a skill that he has developed this term from close study of his team-mate's driving habits? Maybe. Even if not, it looks as if both drivers have promoted the other to a new level.
The Worst Drive Of Schumi's Career? Maybe
Oh Schumi! Even the die-hards will have a job defending his defending in Montreal. The first refusal to yield was splendid; a reminder that the old boy's competitive spirit still burns as strong as ever. The second refusal, with Robert Kubica pushed on to the grass, crossed a literal and metaphorical line. The third, which saw Felipe Massa almost shunted into the wall, crossed the line from naughty to dangerous. There are only so many front wings one driver can put out of joint in a single race without the weight of evidence itself presenting a convincing case for the prosecution.
Schumacher's return has given the season an extra zest, just not in the way that anyone - including the man himself - could have expected. With Mercedes' pace moderate, the role he has assumed is not that of frontrunner but pantomime villain. Not that Sunday ended as a laughing matter. Martin Brundle described Schumacher's performance as the worst of his career.
Ferrari Are Back In The Hunt
The pain of defeat for Fernando Alonso will be alleviated by the relief of Ferrari's advance. After a torrid weekend in Turkey, both Alonso and Felipe Massa had sufficient pace to take victory in Montreal. McLaren have the momentum, but Ferrari might have made their breakthrough. This one got away from Fernando but at least his team are back in the hunt for victories ahead of F1's return to his homeland.
Nonetheless, Alonso's irritation with backmarkers was both palpable and vocal on Sunday night. The Spaniard was overtaken by both McLaren drivers as he passed a slower vehicle and, less obviously, Alonso was also badly hampered by an unidentified backmarker during his final lap before taking his last pit-stop. Having just set the two fastest laps of the race after being released by Hamilton pitting first, the delay meant that the McLaren driver was able to return to the track ahead of his one-time team-mate. "I lost 2.5secs passing another car and I exited the pits 0.5secs behind Lewis," remarked Alonso. "It was a race decided by small details." It so often is in F1.
Listen Out For Legard's Ticking Clock
It's like being stuck in a room with a ticking clock. As soon as you become aware of the tick-tock, it's impossible not to hear it. Sorry to stick you into F1's version of Room 101, but just try listening to the utterly charmless Jonathan Legard during the next race without hearing him make commentary by citing "what everyone was saying", or "lots people", or just "people" in general. It's particularly aggravating because the things he generally claims are said by "everyone" were practically said by nobody.
It Helps When There's A Few Million In The Bank, But...
The unfamiliar sight of a cheerful Ron Dennis is a smiling advertisement for the wonders of early retirement.
Pete Gill(PF1)
DIEK
14th June 2010, 17:43
Ron Dennis
It was good to see Ron back at the track in Montreal. Unfortunately they switched the microphone on and ruined it.
What was what he said? :lou
Hermann
14th June 2010, 17:57
What was what he said? :lou
"We were racing Fernando."
Alessandra
14th June 2010, 19:01
"We were racing Fernando."
Perhaps that would explain Fernando's thunderous looks at the end of the race, it is after all exactly what Dennis said at the end of the 2007 final GP which gave Kimi the DWC title, "We were so busy racing Alonso we didn't notice Kimi coming up" or words to that effect. It also gave the lie to the McLaren pretence that both drivers were given equality ( support) in that season.
Or am I missing the joke?:-)
Hermann
14th June 2010, 19:23
Perhaps that would explain Fernando's thunderous looks at the end of the race, it is after all exactly what Dennis said at the end of the 2007 final GP which gave Kimi the DWC title, "We were so busy racing Alonso we didn't notice Kimi coming up" or words to that effect. It also gave the lie to the McLaren pretence that both drivers were given equality ( support) in that season.
Or am I missing the joke?:-)
Yes. :-D
justjesper
15th June 2010, 14:21
I personally think Michael drove a good race.
He hit Kubica in the first corner, but there was an accident in front of them.
The second incident with Kubica was great. they didn't touch and Kubica could not even make the corner himself.
He's in a car that does not deliver and people might say but his teammate, He did not run into the same incidents as Michael did.
Massa was really fast, and I think he would had been right up there in the front had it not been for the first corner incident.
A good race also for Alonso, just wish he could look just a little happy on the podium and at the press conference. Why was he so mad ?
Hermann
15th June 2010, 14:28
Because he could have won the race without those backmarker incidents? And maybe because he didn't like the other two on the podium- especially not in front of him.
Tifosi
15th June 2010, 14:58
I personally think Michael drove a good race.
:-E
The second incident with Kubica was great. they didn't touch and Kubica could not even make the corner himself.
MS couldn't make the corner you mean! He went for a corner that Kubica already had and had to damage his car to avoid a collision. How is that wise driving?
He's in a car that does not deliver and people might say but his teammate, He did not run into the same incidents as Michael did.
He was compromised by being on the softer tyre was the issue. He was a sitting duck and yet he opted for colliding with people rather than facing the fact he should have let them go. Just made him look a bit daft really. Moving back on Massa was just a daft thing to do too.
A good race also for Alonso, just wish he could look just a little happy on the podium and at the press conference. Why was he so mad ?
I think cos the backmarkers prolly cost him a win. That would hack me off :-)
Greig
15th June 2010, 15:12
If that is a good race for MS then his standards really have lowered
Agron
15th June 2010, 17:07
I personally think Michael drove a good race.
He hit Kubica in the first corner, but there was an accident in front of them.
The second incident with Kubica was great. they didn't touch and Kubica could not even make the corner himself.
He's in a car that does not deliver and people might say but his teammate, He did not run into the same incidents as Michael did.
Massa was really fast, and I think he would had been right up there in the front had it not been for the first corner incident.
A good race also for Alonso, just wish he could look just a little happy on the podium and at the press conference. Why was he so mad ?The fact you think it was a good race for Michael says all we need to know about you really XD; at least you are right about him running into incidents, he almost crashes both Kubica and Massa; who again I agree with you, could have been higher, although MS breaking his car when he was fighting for points didn't help.
And finally about Fernando, he isn't a bit more happy because he is a winner, just because you are happy doesn't mean him or someone who supports him should be happy about that result.
Alessandra
15th June 2010, 18:05
Yes. :-D
Damn:-??
Suzie
15th June 2010, 19:02
Michael drove a good race?! If he was a rookie, it wouldn't have been regarded as a good race.
justjesper
15th June 2010, 21:08
The Massa incident : Even Ferrari said that Massa got caught out because of Michael's bad tires, He had to break a bit earlier.
So is Ferrari Lying ?
If running in to incidents like the first corner one, makes you a bad driver, well then there is a lot of really bad drivers in F1.
Michael was still in front of kubica, why should he stop fighting ?
Greig
15th June 2010, 21:09
The Massa incident : Even Ferrari said that Massa got caught out because of Michael's bad tires, He had to break a bit earlier.
So is Ferrari Lying ?
Clearly to anyone that actually seen it, yes they were lying, did you see it at all or just read about it?
Him running Kubica onto the grass at the pitstops was just usual MS, once we would have to defend it, now we can just admit he was in the wrong :-)
Tifosi
15th June 2010, 21:22
The Massa incident : Even Ferrari said that Massa got caught out because of Michael's bad tires, He had to break a bit earlier.
So is Ferrari Lying ?
Did you not see it? He moved over also!
If running in to incidents like the first corner one, makes you a bad driver, well then there is a lot of really bad drivers in F1.
Who said that was anything to do with him having a bad race?
Michael was still in front of kubica, why should he stop fighting ?
...because he didn't have the corner - a fact he realised after it was too late - compromising his own race by damaging his car. It was a bad move. simple as. :-)
CurdaNeta
15th June 2010, 21:22
I personally think Michael drove a good race.
He hit Kubica in the first corner, but there was an accident in front of them.
The second incident with Kubica was great. they didn't touch and Kubica could not even make the corner himself.
He's in a car that does not deliver and people might say but his teammate, He did not run into the same incidents as Michael did.
Massa was really fast, and I think he would had been right up there in the front had it not been for the first corner incident.
A good race also for Alonso, just wish he could look just a little happy on the podium and at the press conference. Why was he so mad ?
Man! you don't even comment on MS losing Massa 1 point! how's that a good race???
I'm sorry to say this but MS is OLD! and it's starting to show...
justjesper
15th June 2010, 21:23
Clearly to anyone that actually seen it, yes they were lying, did you see it at all or just read about it?
Him running Kubica onto the grass at the pitstops was just usual MS, once we would have to defend it, now we can just admit he was in the wrong :-)
Hi Greig. Good to see your always happy responses.
I did see it thank you. and I can see it again a million times if I want to.
I guess your replying like this as you have the insight info such as telemetry to back up your comment.
So Ferrari is lying, :lou interesting.
Here I was actually giving your favorite driver a Compliment and you just start trowing mud as always. Please give your self a 2 hour timeout for not respecting people in the forum.
Greig
15th June 2010, 21:27
Hi Greig. Good to see your always happy responses.
I did see it thank you. and I can see it again a million times if I want to.
I guess your replying like this as you have the insight info such as telemetry to back up your comment.
So Ferrari is lying, :lou interesting.
Here I was actually giving your favorite driver a Compliment and you just start trowing mud as always. Please give your self a 2 hour timeout for not respecting people in the forum.
Ferrari is lying? show me the comments from Ferrari, Rob was interviewed after the race and the BBC put it to him that MS brake tested Massa, clearly this was not the case, as he simply moved over on him in the braking zone, which is a no no, but you know that, as you seen it right? Anyway Rob said there was no brake test, he did not mention the weave because he was not asked, this interview I guess is your source, unless you can show me other comments from Felipe or Stefano, both of whom as far as I read just mention it as a incident, Ferrari in their race report said Massa was the victim of Schumacher.
Throwing mud? Schumacher was a disgrace on Sunday and for you to come on here and say he had a good race is just laughable, a good race that cost Ferrari points, maybe you should post on a MS forum. He did the same with Kubica and put him on the grass, or maybe you never seen that as well :-)
justjesper
15th June 2010, 21:30
Man! you don't even comment on MS losing Massa 1 point! how's that a good race???
I'm sorry to say this but MS is OLD! and it's starting to show...
If what Ferrari is saying is true ( according to Greig Ferrari is lying, for what reason Ferrari would start lying about this I have no idea, but I'm sure Greig has the answer ) then Michael did not cause Massa the 1 point.
If you know me you would know that I rather had Massa win all the races. I'm a big fan.
I was commenting of the Journalists who said that MS drove a bad race, and to that I say he didn't.
Suzie
15th June 2010, 21:38
Sorry but you are the only person I have read on any forum saying MS had a good race. Maybe you should take the rose tinted spectacles off when it comes to him - as a lot of us have finally had to. Even without his race in Canada I don't see how any fan can hand on heart say this comeback has been a good idea.
justjesper
15th June 2010, 21:44
No what I said was that it was not Bad.
Greig
15th June 2010, 21:46
And denied he moved across the track to take Massa's front wing off, sure thing :-) He got schooled and could not take it, pretty usual MS tactics
Suzie
15th June 2010, 21:49
No what I said was that it was not Bad.
So it wasn't good OR bad? Mediocre?
justjesper
15th June 2010, 21:49
Clearly to anyone that actually seen it, yes they were lying,
Here is your own words Greig. So Ferrari is lying according to your self.
Greig
15th June 2010, 21:53
Here is your own words Greig. So Ferrari is lying according to your self.
LOL you told us Ferrari said Massa got caught out due to early breaking by MS, post the source of that please, not the Rob comments as they were not right and the BBC spoonfed the interview, I took your word for it, and said they must be lying, but since you have not yet posted the Ferrari comments about early breaking I shall twiddle my thumbs until you do. So if you can show me Ferrari comments saying early braking caused it, then yes they will be lying, but you won't post any.
If you are saying MS did not move across on Massa, then you are lying :-)
justjesper
15th June 2010, 21:55
Ferrari engineer Rob Smedley said: "I think that Michael had to possibly brake a little bit early as his tyres were not great - much earlier than Felipe was expecting and he drove into the back of him."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8738074.stm
Greig
15th June 2010, 21:58
As I said, the Rob interview was right after the race, he had clearly not really seen it and the BBC spoonfed him the brake testing line :-) Don't you see Rob was wrong with his comments right after the race? Felipe clearly did not drive into the back of MS, you have seen it, you know that, how could Rob say that if he had seen it properly....you make me laugh. The BBC then went to Brawn and told him Ferrari was claiming MS brake tested Felipe, when Ferrari did no such thing, but hey ho.
Show me Ferrari's comments, Stefano and Felipe saying anything about it being a brake test or early breaking, please
justjesper
15th June 2010, 21:59
If you are saying MS did not move across on Massa, then you are lying :-)
I'm getting tired of you Greig. When did I ever say that ?
This is what you always do you keep saying that we all need to back op what we say with facts. but if you get caught in not having the facts you trow a new ball.
I never said Ferrari was lying. YOU DID.
Greig
15th June 2010, 22:04
I'm getting tired of you Greig. When did I ever say that ?
This is what you always do you keep saying that we all need to back op what we say with facts. but if you get caught in not having the facts you trow a new ball.
I never said Ferrari was lying. YOU DID.
So you admit MS moved across the track in the braking zone and damaged Felipe's front wing, in that case we both agree the comments from Rob (not Ferrari) were wrong, and I have explained to you why they are wrong, I watched it happen as the BBC tried to create something. Massa did not get caught out by early braking, he was not behind MS when he braked, Massa did not run into the back of MS, he was on the outside of him, MS did move across the track and damaged the front wing of Massa, saying otherwise is wrong.
justjesper
15th June 2010, 22:06
I like to clear this thing. I was commenting on the 2 articles on top of this Thread.
Michael Schumacher
Martin Brundle said he drove "appallingly". I personally do not think he did. He kept fighting.
No news that the Brits don't like Michael. David Coulthard was the only one defending MS.
Tifosi
15th June 2010, 23:28
I like to clear this thing. I was commenting on the 2 articles on top of this Thread.
Michael Schumacher
Martin Brundle said he drove "appallingly". I personally do not think he did. He kept fighting.
No news that the Brits don't like Michael. David Coulthard was the only one defending MS.
With respect, you said he had a good race.
You feel that he kept fighting but you dont address the following points made by other posters:
1. He moved back into the breaking zone causing Massa to hit him. This was unneccesary and against the agreed code of conduct followed by F1 drivers. This has nothing to do with his tyre issues at all.
2. He failed to yield to Kubica until it was too late, thus compromising his own race as he incurred damage as a result of that move.
3. He virtually crashed his way through the last lap despite the obvious conclusion that he was going to be passed by the Force Indias.
There's "fighting" and there's pointless scrapping and ignoring the agreed rules and codes of conduct.
Also, DC didn't defend him. Here is his quote: "There are VERY CLEAR RULES. In Motor racing you do not make 2 moves and you don't deliberately drive off the circuit.... it's as simple as that!"
"The Brits" have nothing to do with it either btw. If another driver had done that to MS he would have stormed into their pit garage looking for a fight after the race ;-)
Nova
17th June 2010, 14:58
^Agree...pointless way to drive actually...wouldve been great to see Massa get some much needed points...
He seemed to have to claw his way thru the field really earning every position..shame that he got
taken out by his pal..
MS doesnt need to drive in this manner..his past records speak for themself..he doesnt have anything to prove..
He shouldve taken out the Force cars, that way Massa couldve had a cleaner race and may not have gone a lap down...:-G
Salvador Dali
18th June 2010, 14:00
With respect, you said he had a good race.
You feel that he kept fighting but you dont address the following points made by other posters:
1. He moved back into the breaking zone causing Massa to hit him. This was unneccesary and against the agreed code of conduct followed by F1 drivers. This has nothing to do with his tyre issues at all.
2. He failed to yield to Kubica until it was too late, thus compromising his own race as he incurred damage as a result of that move.
3. He virtually crashed his way through the last lap despite the obvious conclusion that he was going to be passed by the Force Indias.
There's "fighting" and there's pointless scrapping and ignoring the agreed rules and codes of conduct.
Also, DC didn't defend him. Here is his quote: "There are VERY CLEAR RULES. In Motor racing you do not make 2 moves and you don't deliberately drive off the circuit.... it's as simple as that!"
"The Brits" have nothing to do with it either btw. If another driver had done that to MS he would have stormed into their pit garage looking for a fight after the race ;-)
OMG... A whole thread about MS again...
Let me try and set this into a NON BIAS mode - OK?
1. They are all racing drivers and they dont move over for another driver (except for laped cars and cars with damage) - and you all know this is true...
2. The driver who is infront can choose his line as long as the driver behind is not side-by-side (but then he is not really behind is he...) and they can come back to the racing line before the corner (that doesnt count as a move to block someone)
3. Racing incidents hapen - deal with it or watch golf...
It was a shame that it happend to Massa but in a way it was his own fault. He had the pace and tires to get past MS (heck even a torro rosso and 2 force Indias got past - but they went for it when there was space and a chanse) but he just didnt wait for the right moment.
And I'm not saying that what MS did was ok or even that he had a good race (well when he was 3 and before the tire change it looked like a solid race for him...) but come on it is F1 and there were situations that were way more dangerus and stupid than that.
And I know I will get some heat from the rest of the forum members that think that MS was a disaster and a cheat and should have just pulled over, I for one think that F1 driver are paid to race!
Every now and then it would be nice to at lest try to be non bias (sorry Greig but as I see it you are at the top of that list)...
Have a nice day and try to enjoy races for what they are - RACES.
Tifosi
18th June 2010, 18:21
OMG... A whole thread about MS again...
Let me try and set this into a NON BIAS mode - OK?
1. They are all racing drivers and they dont move over for another driver (except for laped cars and cars with damage) - and you all know this is true...
2. The driver who is infront can choose his line as long as the driver behind is not side-by-side (but then he is not really behind is he...) and they can come back to the racing line before the corner (that doesnt count as a move to block someone)
3. Racing incidents hapen - deal with it or watch golf...
It was a shame that it happend to Massa but in a way it was his own fault. He had the pace and tires to get past MS (heck even a torro rosso and 2 force Indias got past - but they went for it when there was space and a chanse) but he just didnt wait for the right moment.
And I'm not saying that what MS did was ok or even that he had a good race (well when he was 3 and before the tire change it looked like a solid race for him...) but come on it is F1 and there were situations that were way more dangerus and stupid than that.
And I know I will get some heat from the rest of the forum members that think that MS was a disaster and a cheat and should have just pulled over, I for one think that F1 driver are paid to race!
Every now and then it would be nice to at lest try to be non bias (sorry Greig but as I see it you are at the top of that list)...
Have a nice day and try to enjoy races for what they are - RACES.
Do you listen to what racing drivers say? They all said that he was out of order. That is what his fellow drivers think. It isn't bias, it's a code of conduct!
Personally im not biased against MS. What happened in Monaco was alright with me tbh. What he did in Canada wasn't, so take your rose tinted specs off or stop accusing others of bias - one of the two!
If you love MS and can see no wrong in what he did then that's up to you, just don't try and pull the wool over everyone else's eyes in the process :-)
Greig
18th June 2010, 18:44
For justjesper
I was heading for the points in the closing stages: I was tenth, but Michael (Schumacher) who was ahead of me was much slower, maybe three seconds and Buemi in front of him was also slow, so I was in with a chance of finishing eighth. But then came the problem with Michael. He closed the door on me too much. He braked on the right and moved across to the left where I was. There was nothing I could do, as I was already on the limit of my braking and when he moved across even more, he broke my front wing. - Felipe Massa
Salvador Dali
18th June 2010, 18:57
Do you listen to what racing drivers say? They all said that he was out of order. That is what his fellow drivers think. It isn't bias, it's a code of conduct!
Hmmm... yeah I know what they all mean as I have seen many a times how these same drivers let faster cars pass when racing for position. Please...
Read my post again, think twice and then read your post again... Some times it seems that all the words are for nothing or people just don't bother to read the whole thing...
My bottom line is that they race at the very limit and stuff happens. If there was something wrong with the incidents the stewards would act (baring in mind their bias, if any). How have you came up with the idea that I love MS is beyond me, but I will tell you one thing: I'm not here because of MS, I'm here because of FERRARI! I didn't like what happened to Massa or Alonso, I was mad even. But looking at it again after I have calmed down gave me a clearer picture of the incident. And when looking from ALL the angles then yes what I have read in this thread is in MY OPINION bias.
But hey that is just me, as all of you agree that must mean that I'm wrong and this thread is totally non bias...
I don't post much because I don't like to argue over silly stuff, I post only to state my opinion when and where I think it could have some use. As it seems I was wrong again...
Have a nice day sir
Tifosi
18th June 2010, 20:39
Hmmm... yeah I know what they all mean as I have seen many a times how these same drivers let faster cars pass when racing for position. Please...
Read my post again, think twice and then read your post again... Some times it seems that all the words are for nothing or people just don't bother to read the whole thing...
My bottom line is that they race at the very limit and stuff happens. If there was something wrong with the incidents the stewards would act (baring in mind their bias, if any). How have you came up with the idea that I love MS is beyond me, but I will tell you one thing: I'm not here because of MS, I'm here because of FERRARI! I didn't like what happened to Massa or Alonso, I was mad even. But looking at it again after I have calmed down gave me a clearer picture of the incident. And when looking from ALL the angles then yes what I have read in this thread is in MY OPINION bias.
But hey that is just me, as all of you agree that must mean that I'm wrong and this thread is totally non bias...
I don't post much because I don't like to argue over silly stuff, I post only to state my opinion when and where I think it could have some use. As it seems I was wrong again...
Have a nice day sir
OK. Look at it this way. Brawn and Schumacher's defense was that his tyres were shot and he was having to brake way too early than normal for the corner. Why would he move back into the braking zone knowing that he was braking far to early for the car behind him? Everyone agrees (including Merc) that MS was having to brake way to early in order to make the corner. So why would he do that knowing that the driver behind him could not expect to encounter such an early braking car weaving back into his path?
How is that bias? It's reading everyone's opinions of it, including both drivers, other drivers, Ross Brawn's and also Massa's race engineer. :-)
Please explain to me how its OK to move back into the braking zone - knowing that you are way to slow for the car behind you and that it is likely to cause an accident? The word "Braketest" was used for a reason!!!
Salvador Dali
18th June 2010, 21:03
OK. Look at it this way. Brawn and Schumacher's defense was that his tyres were shot and he was having to brake way too early than normal for the corner. Why would he move back into the braking zone knowing that he was braking far to early for the car behind him? Everyone agrees (including Merc) that MS was having to brake way to early in order to make the corner. So why would be do that knowing that the driver behind him could not expect to encounter such an early braking car?
IMHO looking from a regulation point of view the whole thing is very simple! - He was in front had the line and corner. They can do that it is not nice but not illegal.
Looking from MS's point oview is also simple. His tires were shot so he was loosing seconds in the corners. If he was to defend he had to keep other behind him before the corner. He did a sloppy work and didn't give Massa enough space.
From Massa's point of view it is also very clear. He was faster, he was loosing time, he had to make up for the lost places and collect as many points as possible. But alas his heart was bigger than his share of luck. He saw MS's pace and could see that he was breaking early. The only way that move was going to work was if MS played along. He didn't...
Simple as that... racing incident!
Good night
Tifosi
18th June 2010, 21:06
IMHO looking from a regulation point of view the whole thing is very simple! - He was in front had the line and corner. They can do that it is not nice but not illegal.
Looking from MS's point oview is also simple. His tires were shot so he was loosing seconds in the corners. If he was to defend he had to keep other behind him before the corner. He did a sloppy work and didn't give Massa enough space.
From Massa's point of view it is also very clear. He was faster, he was loosing time, he had to make up for the lost places and collect as many points as possible. But alas his heart was bigger than his share of luck. He saw MS's pace and could see that he was breaking early. The only way that move was going to work was if MS played along. He didn't...
Simple as that... racing incident!
Good night
You don't answer my question. You basically just say its ok to do that.
Sleep Well :-)
Nova
18th June 2010, 23:28
It may as well been a racing incident, but in my opinion, anyone w/as much experience as him knows very well what he was doing..what, are we talking about a driver w/very little experience?
I dont think so...we're talking about a guy thats been racing for longer than some of these guys have been on the planet...If someone tries to tell me he didnt know what he was doing, they are wrong...IMHO..
I feel compelled to add that..IMHO..Im not that humble so mabey I should leave out the H...And I want to add, if he didnt pull of that cute little stunt, there would be not much more talk than a few posts about his mediocre race...Why didnt he take out the Force cars? Could it be because they have Merc engines?? Salvadores post makes it sound as if it was Massa's fault...What???? If I never rooted for a Ferrari in my entire life, I would have the same opinion...3 sec a lap is quite a bit faster..that makes the merc driver a backmarker...he had no bidness being in the way...IM*O
Salvador Dali
19th June 2010, 08:25
All I was trying to do was put the whole incident in a non bias tone. I'm not defending anybody! Please try and read the whole thing and not just parts.
I think what I said is right, but I know it is only my opinion. I don't debate opinions, as all are intitled to have one.
Childish comments and false facts will give this debate and even this forum very little. Trying to add somethig constructive to this forum is becoming harder and harder.
Poor show m8's
Tifosi
19th June 2010, 09:18
All I was trying to do was put the whole incident in a non bias tone. I'm not defending anybody! Please try and read the whole thing and not just parts.
I think what I said is right, but I know it is only my opinion. I don't debate opinions, as all are intitled to have one.
Childish comments and false facts will give this debate and even this forum very little. Trying to add somethig constructive to this forum is becoming harder and harder.
Poor show m8's
Chill out dude! We aren't getting at you :-) If you are accusing members of bias (which you are), then you should expect us to reply to that accusation with our opinions too. If I accused you of that i'd expect you to reply, not merely to say - oo, fair enough! :lol Also, believing someone was out of order has nothing to do with bias. When Massa and Alonso are out of order and I believe it, am I being biased?
The whole point of a forum is to debate opinions based on facts btw ;-)
No offense intended as i'm sure you didn't :thumb
Salvador Dali
19th June 2010, 09:32
The whole point of a forum is to debate opinions based on facts btw ;-)
No offense intended as i'm sure you didn't :thumb
Thx for understanding and no I meant no offense to anyone.
It is just that facts usually get distorted and put out of context. That is what I thought when reading this thread (and even more so the race thread, but that I understand as I was very BIAS after the race :lol ) and thought that I maight put some of the facts back to where they should be IMHO.
It must be that I'm getting old and kinda miss the old days when Ferrari was larger than life not only with its cars and history but also how they were dealing with others namley our opposition. There was respect! Gentleman at their best! I for one would love to have a bit of that back in our family.
Let us show them we are better man and come race day just leave them at the start... :thumb
Have a nice weekend m8's
Nova
20th June 2010, 14:31
I think Ferrari still carries on w/respect...In the world of F1, which is mostly UK based teams, they carry on the fight, year after year..They are larger than life to a great many people, and whether having a good year or a few bad, which is often the case, they remain the most highly recognized marque in the world. It depends on which "old days" you are referring to, there are so many.
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