Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

[HalfVector]

Angry Alonso says race 'manipulated'

By Pablo Elizalde Sunday, June 27th 2010, 14:16 GMT

Fernando Alonso was heavily critical of the race stewards of the European Grand Prix, saying the race had been manipulated.

The Spanish driver finished in a distant ninth position after losing out during the safety car period following Mark Webber's crash.

Alonso was running in third at the time, right behind McLaren's Lewis Hamilton, but the Briton overtook the safety car and went on to finish in second.

Hamilton earned a drive-through penalty for his action, but the Briton kept second place while Alonso dropped out of the point-scoring positions for having respected the rules.

The Ferrari driver was angry at the stewards' decision, saying the race had been manipulated by it.

"It's a shame, not for us because this is racing, but for all the fans who came here to watch a manipulated race," he told Spanish television after the race.

"We were running well, in third after a good start. Then the safety car came out, which wasn't too good for us, but Hamilton overtook the safety car, something that I had never seen, overtaking the medical car with yellow flags. We were a meter off each other, and he finished second and I finished ninth.

"This race was to finish second. Then with the safety car I would have finished where I finished in ninth, and Hamilton in eighth. But here, when you do the normal thing, which is respecting the rules, you finish ninth, and the one who doesn't respect them finishes second."

The Spaniard said everything seemed to be going against him and his team.

"It must have been very hard to know," said Alonso of the times it took the stewards to penalise Hamilton. "They must have taken a lot of laps to see the replay of how he overtook the medical car.

"But that's how it is. Unfortunately everything goes against us and it seems they are allowing everything."

A further nine drivers are facing penalties for possible infringements.

Source: autosport (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84837)

[Hermann]

Maybe that will answer your question Greig. I suppose you like to defend the british in here, but unfortunately, i'm a Ferrari fan first and i see no reason to defend them at all.

[Greig]

Maybe that will answer your question Greig. I suppose you like to defend the british in here, but unfortunately, i'm a Ferrari fan first and i see no reason to defend them at all.

What's with the nationality bashing? I am Scottish not British not English, Ferrari is not about nations, keep a lid on it

[Hermann]

What's with the nationality bashing? I am Scottish not British not English, Ferrari is not about nations, keep a lid on it

I'm not arguing with you. I just have the feeling you like to defend the british nation as a whole. But the way i see it, it definitley looks like some kind of 'british' conspiracy here. Only in F1 of course. I'm not speaking about anything else.

[Greig]

I'm not arguing with you. I just have the feeling you like to defend the british nation as a whole. But the way i see it, it definitley looks like some kind of 'british' conspiracy here. Only in F1 of course. I'm not speaking about anything else.

When someone brands all British/English as degenerates then yes I will defend it, just if they said all Italians were the same, stick to F1, nationality is not the issue.

[shostak]

Greig, you simply have no reason. Someone got advantage for breaking the rules and didn't get a fair penalty.

[Hornet]

I wish we could see an overhead video of all 3 front runners during the incident. How far ahead was Vettel

Something doesn't feels right for me here. Hamilton knew the rules, he saw the SC rolling out, IMO, he could have easily passed the SC before it crossed the SC line.

Just thinking out loud here:-P

[shostak]

I wish we could see an overhead video of all 3 front runners during the incident. How far ahead was Vettel

Something doesn't feels right for me here. Hamilton knew the rules, he saw the SC rolling out, IMO, he could have easily passed the SC before it crossed the SC line.

Just thinking out loud here:-P

Yes, LH is not very smart but his play went well for him (thanks to Whiting).

[Greig]

Greig, you simply have no reason. Someone got advantage for breaking the rules and didn't get a fair penalty.

What are you on about? I am saying him being English is not the issue, calling all English names is not going to happen, nothing to do with the penalty, try read the race thread....had Lewis not slowed down just a bit he would not have got penalty, it was a very close call which is why it probably took so long to sort out and consult with the rules. Nothing about all English being cheats.

[shostak]

What are you on about? I am saying him being English is not the issue, calling all English names is not going to happen, nothing to do with the penalty, try read the race thread....had Lewis not slowed down just a bit he would not have got penalty, it was a very close call which is why it probably took so long to sort out and consult with the rules. Nothing about all English being cheats.

I'm about your messages in race thread... :roll

[Hermann]

What are you on about? I am saying him being English is not the issue, calling all English names is not going to happen, nothing to do with the penalty, try read the race thread....

And that is where i think you are wrong. IMHO it has a lot to do with Hamilton being british and driving for a british team. And Whiting is british, no?

They waited a long time for another british champion. Its even understandable. But today, they have gone too far. It was too obvious. Something must happen.

[Greig]

And that is where i think you are wrong. IMHO it has a lot to do with Hamilton being british and driving for a british team. And Whiting is british, no?

They waited a long time for another british champion. Its even understandable. But today, they have gone too far. It was too obvious. Something must happen.

A long time? last 2 years been British champ, it's nothing to do with nationalities, and even if it was people posting here that all Brits are scum etc is not going to happen. That was my only point, no idea why you have any issue with that.

[Greig]

I'm about your messages in race thread... :roll

You mean the F1 is a farce ones, the Lewis should be dq ones? or just the ones that don't agree that it was fixed? read

[Hornet]

Yes, LH is not very smart but his play went well for him (thanks to Whiting).
I'm just afraid that he may have deliberately tried to overtake just in time for him to go through and not Alonso, hence his attempt to pass so close to the SC line.

Maybe I'm just crazy here

[Hermann]

A long time? last 2 years been British champ, it's nothing to do with nationalities, and even if it was people posting here that all Brits are scum etc is not going to happen. That was my only point, no idea why you have any issue with that.

So far i have not seen such a posting and i agree it would be wrong to say that. But for F1, since Hamilton entered the scene, i stick to my oppinion.

[hogo]

What are you on about? I am saying him being English is not the issue, calling all English names is not going to happen, nothing to do with the penalty, try read the race thread....had Lewis not slowed down just a bit he would not have got penalty, it was a very close call which is why it probably took so long to sort out and consult with the rules. Nothing about all English being cheats.

I think that someone had in mind all brits that are in F1 and are related to it, that includes Lewis, Mclaren, Whiting, BBC commentators etc.

[shostak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyiSTwCk06c

[TheProdigalSon]

What are you on about? I am saying him being English is not the issue, calling all English names is not going to happen, nothing to do with the penalty, try read the race thread....had Lewis not slowed down just a bit he would not have got penalty, it was a very close call which is why it probably took so long to sort out and consult with the rules. Nothing about all English being cheats.

It took me half a second after seeing the helicopter replay of Lewis passing the line after the safety car to figure it out, are you seriously telling me it could take them that long to figure it out.. ridiculous. Even a ten year old could work it out faster, then just a pathetic drive through penalty once they had given him enough time to build a gap. People with a modest brain can work out there is something not right there..

[Greig]

It took me half a second after seeing the helicopter replay of Lewis passing the line after the safety car to figure it out, are you seriously telling me it could take them that long to figure it out.. ridiculous. Even a ten year old could work it out faster, then just a pathetic drive through penalty once they had given him enough time to build a gap. People with brain can work out there is something not right there..

The replays came about 5 mins before he got the penalty, we were in the dark about it, read the race thread and see everyone wonder how we were so far behind......I am not defending the penalty it was wrong, Im just defending against claims that all Brits and degenerates, simple to understand. And from that replay with the safety car still in the pitlane exit you knew the rules off the top of your head? The FIA stewards need to follow the right procedures to issue a penalty, the penalty was not right, he should have been black flagged.

[Tifosi]

It took me half a second after seeing the helicopter replay of Lewis passing the line after the safety car to figure it out, are you seriously telling me it could take them that long to figure it out.. ridiculous. Even a ten year old could work it out faster, then just a pathetic drive through penalty once they had given him enough time to build a gap. People with brain can work out there is something not right there..

don't forget Lewis being given a couple more laps to pull out a lead in clean air before serving the penalty while we were stuck in traffic thanks to the offence he was being penalised for!

[shostak]

The replays came about 5 mins before he got the penalty, we were in the dark about it, read the race thread and see everyone wonder how we were so far behind......I am not defending the penalty it was wrong, Im just defending against claims that all Brits and degenerates, simple to understand.

FIA knew this since Alonso said Stella about this and Ferrari told it to FIA. It wasnt 5 mins, it was 20 laps.

[Greig]

FIA knew this since Alonso said Stella about this and Ferrari told it to FIA. It wasnt 5 mins, it was 20 laps.

So the FIA just issue a penalty based on what Ferrari tell them? or they go investigate it and then react?

[Hermann]

So the FIA just issue a penalty based on what Ferrari tell them? or they go investigate it and then react?

I'm not 100% sure bit it seems the stewards only started the investigation after Fernando told the team over the radio. Before that there was no sign and it was not shown at that time on the TV. Thats the information we have right now, we will have to wait for more details.

[aroutis]

From official Formula1 site (formula1.com)


That left Button third behind Hamilton, who earlier had had to take a rapid drive-through penalty on the 27th lap after inadvertently overtaking the safety car as it emerged from the pits early in the race. He was able to get back out again before Kobayashi came through.Anyone cares to comment on this load of ****?

[vecchiasignora]

I am with greig in this.I made a stupid comment bout english as well, because of my anger at that momeny.

Lets not forget alot of english work for ferrari.

[shostak]

So the FIA just issue a penalty based on what Ferrari tell them? or they go investigate it and then react?

FIA wouldn't have given a penalty to Hamilton. I'm sure SC driver told them this but they remained quiet. I repeat it: FIA wants a battle between Vettel & Ramilton this year. Today everything was perfect for this.

[Hermann]

FIA wouldn't have given a penalty to Hamilton. I'm sure SC driver told them this but they remained quiet. I repeat it: FIA wants a battle between Vettel & Ramilton this year. Today everything was perfect for this.

That is what i thought as well. The safety car driver must have told the stewards. And nothing happened before Fernando realized nothing was happening and asked the team to contact Whiting. Then, they started to 'investigate' which took them a while. It was enough time for Hamilton to build a gap so that the DT would not do any damage to his position. This, in my eyes, is manipulation.

[red power]

Mclaren are cheating b--tards full stop, enough said. And i don't give a F--k what nationalty you are.

[Greig]

Well you should remember this is a family forum, lessen your language :-)

[NATALLIA]

Go you good thing

[hogo]

Well Germany crushed them in football at least so this day isn't that bad :-)

[ferrari1.8t]

Next year the safety car should be a Maserati! Nevermind Merc! Then we will see if there is any conspiracies with safety car release and safety car overtaking! Regardless, after watching the post race Q&A, it was written all over Hamilton's face that he was guilty at the expense of Fernando "I dont recall what happened`BS......All we can do is hope for the next race.....

[Naeem]

Our race was ruined as a result of our cars being caught up behind the safety car. The hamilton issue is a matter of a single place. Perhaps F1 should look at the safety car rules. For example when the safety car comes out, everyone can pit but the initial running order must be re-established before the safety car departs.

[ferrari4life]

that would make sense because it would be in line with no passing under SC

[NJB13]

The stewards did an atrocious job - that is indisputable.
It is entirely wrong for anyone here to try and ascribe that to any nationality.
They clearly took too long to make their decision. When they did, it should have been their first responsibility to ensure that all the purpotrators did not in any way benefit from their actions. By the time they had decided that Lewis was at fault they should have either given him at least 2 drive through penalties or they should have given him a 20 second stop penalty - to ensure he came out behind where he would have been had he obeyed the rules.

[RedRebel40]

funny to see Alonso moaning, he has won a fixed race before with Renault. I can't understand why he is crying about this.

[omar_baki]

Can someone clarify this for me? What ever happened to that rule that disallowed teams to pit under the safety car?

[Greig]

Can someone clarify this for me? What ever happened to that rule that disallowed teams to pit under the safety car?

They got rid of it after so many silly penalties for teams needing to pit for fuel, suppose they could bring it back now though.

[Hermann]

Can someone clarify this for me? What ever happened to that rule that disallowed teams to pit under the safety car?

I was surprised about that as well. Vettel and Hamilton came to the pits right after the notice of race control that the safety car would come out. I was waiting for the Ferraris- who had been right behind them- to come in as well, while asking myself if the pitlane should not have been closed anyway.

[Hornet]

They got rid of it after so many silly penalties for teams needing to pit for fuel, suppose they could bring it back now though.

Might be a problem if they were caught under a sudden rain condition

[shostak]

funny to see Alonso moaning, he has won a fixed race before with Renault. I can't understand why he is crying about this.

TROLL

[shostak]

http://i42.tinypic.com/dnkkyp.jpg

Steward with UK flag and laughing... after SC deployed after Button pitstop, of course.

[ferrari4life]

Definitely goes down in histtory as a race with an * next to it

[aroutis]

Well Germany crushed them in football at least so this day isn't that bad :-)

They did? Excellent, you just made my day! hahahahah

[LAROSA SpA]

Wonderful piece of work from the FIA 5 second penalties to everybody under investigation so nothing happens :furious
There pathetic!!!

1st Italy crash out of the World cup with a disgraceful performance & Ferrari cheated out of a good points finish thanks to that little **** Hamilton (not a good week).

Although watching England get MULLERed was good fun :-D

[Ferrarichamp]

Well Germany crushed them in football at least so this day isn't that bad :-)

another 'manipulation' :roll

[vcs316]

I thought it would be 20s penalties for all the drivers !! When did they make up 5 sec penalties?

The FIA are a joke. Whats to prevent drivers speeding/overtaking when the safety car is out knowin that they will receive a 5s penalty?

There seems to be a jinx on us. Every race its continuous bad luck !!!!

[Stormsearcher]

funny to see Alonso moaning, he has won a fixed race before with Renault. I can't understand why he is crying about this.

Maybe because he lost points this time. Is it that difficult to understand? Troll!!

[Ste]

http://i42.tinypic.com/dnkkyp.jpg

Steward with UK flag and laughing... after SC deployed after Button pitstop, of course.

That must have been edited, I doubt he'd be wiggling around a Britain flag.

[netlord]

funny to see Alonso moaning, he has won a fixed race before with Renault. I can't understand why he is crying about this.

You can't understand why he is crying about this because you are a hater.

[mandzipop]

I'm speechless. By sticking to the rules you suffer. By breaking them nothing happens. I'm not blaming any nationality on this. It was total ineptitude by the stewards and rc.

[TheProdigalSon]

I'm speechless. By sticking to the rules you suffer. By breaking them nothing happens. I'm not blaming any nationality on this. It was total ineptitude by the stewards and rc.
+1

[mad_ani]

5 sec penalties...thats not even in teh rule book(?)...
Ferrari were caught out in the pitstops...but disagree with Alonso that the race was manipulated..Its just bad luck that Alonso and Ferrari were most affected...Massa who was right behind Alonso lost out due to double pitstops as well..

[bkircher]

This race was straight jacked up the steward's really did no one any good. I still don't get the decision to pit after we had missed the pits anyways. We should have just stayed out.

[Brakefade]

To hell with the FIA
To hell with Mclaren
To hell with Charlie Whiting
To hell with the Vodafone Clown (Hamilton)
To hell with the Stewards

How many times has Hamilton been given reprimands and warnings, and now that they finally penalize him it has no effect. Then they purposely penalize the others 5 seconds so we wouldn't jump them. Just when we we're supposed to be strong this happens? We jump a start, and Charlie is very quick to point his crooked finger at us. Oh, but when it's Hamilton doing something... "Here's your slap on the wrist Mr. Hamilton. I hope that didn't hurt too much."

[theodorus8864]

I think it is time to kick some old faggots out of FIA institution. How can we put this modern adrenaline-pumping sport in the hand of those weak heart coffin-smelled old fellas to be stewards. F1 needs fresh bloods, and so does FIA. Fair enough?!!!

[mad_ani]

Mclaren are cheating b--tards full stop, enough said. And i don't give a F--k what nationalty you are.

Mclaren did not cheat in this race...the FIA were...Mclaren did get punished...

The extent of the punishment is decided by the FIA..

[mad_ani]

To hell with the FIA
To hell with Mclaren
To hell with Charlie Whiting
To hell with the Vodafone Clown (Hamilton)
To hell with the Stewards

How many times has Hamilton been given reprimands and warnings, and now that they finally penalize him it has no effect. Then they purposely penalize the others 5 seconds so we wouldn't jump them. Just when we we're supposed to be strong this happens? We jump a start, and Charlie is very quick to point his crooked finger at us. Oh, but when it's Hamilton doing something... "Here's your slap on the wrist Mr. Hamilton. I hope that didn't hurt too much."

Charlie did point out to what he obvisoulsy saw....but I fail to understand as to how FIA gave out the 5 sec penalties...nowhere in the rule book...

[KurtC]

This race was a joke, completely joke .... is hard to believe how somenone can get away with it after so many infractions through out the season, anyway let's hope for a clean and fair race at silverstone or else Ferrari should start breaking some rules.... by the way nice forum i'll stick around here not like other biased forums out there, cheers!!! :-)

[Kingdom Hearts]

Unfair, lucky, Hamilton cheater, whatever, I can swallow anything but race manipulated, Fernando was dead wrong in this one. The team should learn how to handle Alonso in the heat of the battle because sometimes he is out of control in this situtations. He have the right to be angry as we do, but calling the race "manipulated" is beyond acceptable.

[RED]

Does anybody have any info on how much Hamilton actually gained by having an extra fast lap and how much he lost due to drive-through? Also much these 9 drivers gained by going faster?

[Rosso Corsa]

Unfair, lucky, Hamilton cheater, whatever, I can swallow anything but race manipulated, Fernando was dead wrong in this one. The team should learn how to handle Alonso in the heat of the battle because sometimes he is out of control in this situtations. He have the right to be angry as we do, but calling the race "manipulated" is beyond acceptable.

Piffle. The world needs people who say what they think, whether you approve of their message or not.

The FIA have set precedence. It's okay to overtake the safety car and speed during a SC period. Glad that's clarified. I pity the Marshalls who's lives the FIA clearly have no regard for. You wouldn't catch me collecting debris from the track under this regime.

[Silent Bob]

Unfair, lucky, Hamilton cheater, whatever, I can swallow anything but race manipulated, Fernando was dead wrong in this one. The team should learn how to handle Alonso in the heat of the battle because sometimes he is out of control in this situtations. He have the right to be angry as we do, but calling the race "manipulated" is beyond acceptable.

Well you don't want to really believe it.. but it becomes hard not to think it. When race stewards make up new penalties? How do you argue against that? And any other race, whnever a car crosses the pitlane exit line, they are investigated almost immediately, and given a drive thru fairly quickly. 20 laps to come to a decision on a blatant foul.. something smells funny. It didn't take viewers that ling toknow Hmailton was in the wrong once the replay was shown.

[Effone]

I dislike Hamilton and McLaren but I must say I find it a bit rich Alonso talking about manipulated races...

I'll say no more :P

[Tifosi]

ma·nip·u·late

tr.v. ma·nip·u·lat·ed, ma·nip·u·lat·ing, ma·nip·u·lates

1. To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner: e.g. "Lewis manipulated his other tricky earring stud firmly into place and admired himself in his motorhome mirror."

2. To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously: e.g. "He tried to manipulate public opinion in his favor by constantly telling everyone that he drove his heart out".

3. To tamper with or falsify for personal gain: e.g. "He decided to overtake the safety car, knowingly breaking a rule and gaining an advantage as a result. The FIA would surely see through this deliberate manipulation of the race!?!".

4. Medicine: To handle and move in an examination or for therapeutic purposes: manipulate a joint; e.g. "Sid Watkins manupulated Lewis' head to check for injuries or any sign of non-narcissistic self-awareness. He found neither!"

[Voice of reason]

Did none of you see the safety car swerve out of the pit lane exit and cause Hamilton to slow briefly and then it swerved back into the pit lane? It`s there on the overhead view. You chaps really ought to just look at the facts and forget all the nationalistic rubbish. Surely the safety car has to obey the same rules as the drivers in not crossing that line?
Oh and by the way, you chaps at the Ferrari team would be advised to look for a driver who can concentrate on his racing (for the team`s sake) and not on some pathetic campaign against another driver. Was Fernando an only child or did he have to share his toys, he comes across as a boy who hasn`t grown up.

[Hermann]

There are trolls in this forum....i was waiting for them to show up lol

[Curbs]

So, the other teams don´t support Ferrari in this case. Rules are rules they say.
Well, point is, if we should follow the rules by the book to every letter (wich is their opinion), the other 9 cars should have had a 20 sec penalty, not a 5 sec.

[Tifosi]

Did none of you see the safety car swerve out of the pit lane exit and cause Hamilton to slow briefly and then it swerved back into the pit lane? It`s there on the overhead view. You chaps really ought to just look at the facts and forget all the nationalistic rubbish. Surely the safety car has to obey the same rules as the drivers in not crossing that line?
Oh and by the way, you chaps at the Ferrari team would be advised to look for a driver who can concentrate on his racing (for the team`s sake) and not on some pathetic campaign against another driver. Was Fernando an only child or did he have to share his toys, he comes across as a boy who hasn`t grown up.

Oooooo, voice of reason - where have you been all my life? :wave

You finally show up after i make all these mistakes over all these years, and to cap it all, you turn out to be a Lewis Hamilton fan!!!!!!! ;-)

I fear I may disappear in a puff of logic at this realisation! :-E

(sorry, I hate Mondays :lol )

[RED]

I don't see that safety car swerving caused Lewis to slow. It didn't really swerve anyway. I just went a bit wider onto the line. I'm sure there are guidelines to safety car drivers, but what penalty would you give to the safety car driver then if they don't obey it???

[Hermann]

'Voice of reason' is a perfect nick for a troll. Great manipulation. Doesn't work for me though- i know a troll when i see one.

Well, now that some of the british press is asking for a race ban for Fernando because of his remarks, i come back to my wish from yesterday: they should have kept him in the back somewhere until he cooled down.

You simply can't let a guy like Fernando to the next journalist after a race like this. Not when it was the one which destroyed all his hopes to still fight for the title.

As much as i actually regret it, we live in a world of political correctness, and someone who speaks his mind as Fernando does will always be in danger to get into trouble.

[Rosso Corsa]

someone who speaks his mind as Fernando does will always be in danger to get into trouble.

Trouble??? That's something 10 year olds get in to. We'll be calling for Ferrari to smack his botty next. You always know where you are with someone who speaks their mind. The PC brigade on the other hand... They say stuff equally bad, but prefer to do it behind your back like cowards. The world needs more Fernandos. Fewer Lewis's.

[Hermann]

Trouble??? That's something 10 year olds get in to. We'll be calling for Ferrari to smack his botty next. You always know where you are with someone who speaks their mind. The PC brigade on the other hand... They say stuff equally bad, but prefer to do it behind your back like cowards. The world needs more Fernandos. Fewer Lewis's.

I agree, but as we know, the press will always shoot especially at Fernando with cannon balls. Not that i care, but there are many people who do.

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

As much as i actually regret it, we live in a world of political correctness, and someone who speaks his mind as Fernando does will always be in danger to get into trouble.

i actually like people who are straight forward at least you know where you stand. All you troll’s can get lost! if the boot were in the other hand and Alonso passed did the same you’d all be crying “Safety Gate”

[Alonsomaniac]

Fernando always says what he thinks about such kind of things. He always did and he always will. It's just the way he is, whether one likes it or not.
At least it's always clear where he stands.
Nobody will ever be able to stop that, not even Ferrari (in case they wanted to, which I don't believe).

[Hermann]

There is a very good interview in english on the Ferrari site with Fernando. He is being very careful avoiding the word 'manipulation' but he sounds extremely disappointed.

http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formula1/Pages/Home.aspx?utm_campaign=100628_FERRARI_EN&utm_content=4075469753&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_term=400528531

[Tifosi]

Fernando always says what he thinks about such kind of things. He always did and he always will. It's just the way he is, whether one likes it or not.
At least it's always clear where he stands.
Nobody will ever be able to stop that, not even Ferrari (in case they wanted to, which I don't believe).

There's a certain irony to that, given that they had to prod his predecessor with sticks just to get him to say "hello" ;-)

[crewskas]

Can we know exactly when the investigation of the incident started?
We know that Maylander saw what happened, which means Charlie Whiting was aware of it, inside the next minute.
So, if they started to investigate it, after 10-15 minutes or more, then it is really a scandal.
I don't agree with Alonso though, that it was manipulated, but I can say that the delay was on purpose...
(I mean, it wasn't fixed before the race, but the fixed it when it happened)...

[Greig]

How do we know the SC driver saw it?

[crewskas]

How he saw Hamilton you mean?
They were close and before the 2nd pitlane line, Maylander was trying to get in the middle of the track, then he sees Hamster coming and pulled again inside the pitlane...
Even if he couldn't be sure if Hamilton passed him before or after the line (which I doubt, because at that time Hamilton and Maylander are going slowly), he certainly informed Whiting...
Whiting has an open line with the SC at all times...

[Greig]

Do you have any source for that though, saying it does not just make it true, how do you know he spoke to Charlie about it?

[crewskas]

How do I know that the SC driver talked to the sport principal about a car that passed him, when this is forbidden?
Do I need evidence for this?
I think it's the most obvious thing...
Anyway though, you can still need evidence.
How about Alonso?
When Alonso started to talk about it on the radio?
Obviously when he saw it.
Don't forget, that what we hear from team radio on TV is never live...!

[Greig]

So we don't know then :-)

[crewskas]

No. We certainly know, at least Alonso told it in the radio when it happened. Which means, everyone is listening him, but also Ferrari went to clarify the situation.
So, since they knew soon enough, why they started too late the investigation (according to the tv card)?
That's why I'm asking the time, they started to investigate the incident...

[Greig]

Sorry we don't know, yes Alonso was complaining, but we have no source of what the SC seen, or told Charlie. Alonso complained yes, but I imagine Ferrari has to go and see if he has reason to complain firstly, takes time, then actually make the complaint.

[crewskas]

So, the stewards need a complaint to do their job...
Okay, this year, it seems to be true...
As they totally forgot Barichello in Monaco...

[Suzie]

The FIA have set precedence. It's okay to overtake the safety car and speed during a SC period. Glad that's clarified. I pity the Marshalls who's lives the FIA clearly have no regard for. You wouldn't catch me collecting debris from the track under this regime.

It did cross my mind about that marshall who ran out onto the track to collect that beer bottle. I know there wasn't a safety car at that point, but if there HAD been, and Lewis had just driven on past it, it doesn't bear thinking about the consequences.

[Greig]

So, the stewards need a complaint to do their job...
Okay, this year, it seems to be true...
As they totally forgot Barichello in Monaco...

No they don't but I bet a complaint gets them looking at it quicker, as we seen how long it took them to investigate the other 9 driver

[Bat]

Hi ppl :wave
After reading all posts here http://www.thescuderia.net/forums/showthread.php/27035-European-GP-2010-Official-Race-Thread/page2 we can calculate time needed from Stewards to know about Hamilton's incident and their time of response...

14:22: m schumy posts SC on track
http://www.thescuderia.net/forums/showthread.php/27035-European-GP-2010-Official-Race-Thread?p=610002#post610002

14:42 Greig posts Lewis under investigation, and Vettel too please surely?

http://www.thescuderia.net/forums/showthread.php/27035-European-GP-2010-Official-Race-Thread?p=610084#post610084

14:49 m schumy posts Lewis gets a drive-through!!!! Yessss!!!!

http://www.thescuderia.net/forums/showthread.php/27035-European-GP-2010-Official-Race-Thread?p=610109#post610109

14:54 Hermann posts See? Nothing happened. Still P2. Like expected

http://www.thescuderia.net/forums/showthread.php/27035-European-GP-2010-Official-Race-Thread?p=610132#post610132

It's take them 20 mins from Sc incident till they announce their investigation, after that they takes 7 mins since they start investigation till they announce Hamilton's penalty (oh they're saying the truth...but what about 20 previous mins????). Hamilton did his best 5 mins later with a drive-through...(excellent gap isn't it?)

[Rob]

It did cross my mind about that marshall who ran out onto the track to collect that beer bottle. I know there wasn't a safety car at that point, but if there HAD been, and Lewis had just driven on past it, it doesn't bear thinking about the consequences.

good point. That was a very very risky stunt, F1 wouldnt want another dreadfull accident like Tom Pryce's. RIP Tom.

Thought Charlie was going to put SC out. How did that bottle get there? Is Bernie going to take action on the organisers for that? he would if happen here at Silverstone or Spa or even Interlagos.

[Suzie]

Maybe it was an angry Fernando fan trying to hit Lewis on the noggin ;-)

[Tifosi]

should have hit him really. Pretty big target after all ;-)

[RedDragon]

I know many people are concerned about the time it took to investigate. I wonder though if they weren't busy at the time looking at Webber's accident first. Does anyone know if anything has been said about this?

[996 GT1 Lover]

I'm really sick of this kind of stuff happening. I'm ready to stop watching F1 altogether and stick to MotoGP.

[Aldai]

That was totally manipulated. Coincidence, the 2 Ferrari cars escorted by safety cars, and if Alonso had not spoken in radio, Hamilton would not have received neither the ridiculous penalty that have been placed. Alonso was in 3º position about 2 seconds of Hamilton and one's end ninth and the other second! Incredible.... :spam

Anyway, we will be back to the war at Silverstone! FORZA FERRARI :ferrarifl

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2301/mafiad.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/i/mafiad.jpg/)

[Brakefade]

That was totally manipulated. Coincidence, the 2 Ferrari cars escorted by safety cars, and if Alonso had not spoken in radio, Hamilton would not have received neither the ridiculous penalty that have been placed. Alonso was in 3º position about 2 seconds of Hamilton and one's end ninth and the other second! Incredible.... :spam

Anyway, we will be back to the war at Silverstone! FORZA FERRARI :ferrarifl

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2301/mafiad.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/i/mafiad.jpg/)

And I hope at Silverstone we learn our lesson and throw the rule book out the window.
Full speed in and out of the pits.

If the SC is deployed pass it and race full blast to be the first one to pit.

If the marshalls deploy a yellow, ignore it and pretend it's green.

If we're leading the pack behind the safety car constantly brake hard down to 5 MPH to mess everyone behind us up and hopefully end someone's day.

When someone wants to pass us weave like we're avoiding land mines and mortar shells.

As soon as the first red light turns on at the start, take off and start the race. The drive through won't make a difference, even a stop and go won't make a difference.

When someone beats us in the pit (despite going in full speed), shove them into the wall or the mechanics area. Hopefully they'll run over a wheel gun.

[mad_ani]

That was totally manipulated. Coincidence, the 2 Ferrari cars escorted by safety cars, and if Alonso had not spoken in radio, Hamilton would not have received neither the ridiculous penalty that have been placed. Alonso was in 3º position about 2 seconds of Hamilton and one's end ninth and the other second! Incredible.... :spam

Anyway, we will be back to the war at Silverstone! FORZA FERRARI :ferrarifl

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2301/mafiad.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/i/mafiad.jpg/)

Do you think the stewards listen to the drivers radio comments to start investigations...apart from the case of team orders.....I think NOT..

Next race stewards wil have special radio calls from Alonso for looking into investigations :lol

[Greig]

The drivers can speak directly to Charlie if they wish, Webber has done it previously, so yes team radio can be used.

[mad_ani]

The drivers can speak directly to Charlie if they wish, Webber has done it previously, so yes team radio can be used.

Yes, it has happened before, but can drivers ersuade the stewards to start an ivestigation during a race??

[crewskas]

Sorry, I posted somewhere else, but here I wanted to:


It was 2006, in the GP2 race in Imola, and Lewis overtook the safety car after falsely thinking he was being waved through when in fact it was waving through the Campos cars ahead of him. Lewis was leading the race at that time and should have stayed behind the safety car. His penalty? A black flag and disqualification from the race.


:Hmm

By the way, a guy in his blog which he is known as insider of F1 for many things (he has connections in many teams), has sent some mails to Charlie and FIA asking clarifications about how stewards handle multiple investigations (lewis and 9 cars).

[Ant Raikkonen]

Trouble??? That's something 10 year olds get in to. We'll be calling for Ferrari to smack his botty next. You always know where you are with someone who speaks their mind. The PC brigade on the other hand... They say stuff equally bad, but prefer to do it behind your back like cowards. The world needs more Fernandos. Fewer Lewis's.

Totally agreed.
It really winds me up when Hamilton conveniently "can't remember" stuff in the race, like passing the SC for example. What a BS master. Please DO NOT insult our intelligence! :-!

I tell you what, i loved it (after qually?) when Hamilton went to shake Alonso's hand and Alonso just completely blanked him :lol. Brilliant. You see, i like people like that. They don't hide how they feel about someone, rather than being a fake. I try to be like that myself. People may see it as moody or ignorant but i'd rather be straight like that, rather than acting.
I was debating with someone at work (a "you MUST support English drivers/teams type person":roll:roll) about that incident and his thoughts are that FA is a "spoilt Spanish brat who still sulks over 2007 when he got beat".

What's his nationality got to do with anything?
Yeah, LH really thrashed him in 2007 didn't he. :roll

[Scuderialol]

Alonso is angry just because he can't win the championship on his first year in ferrari, like Kimi Raikkonen did.

[Ant Raikkonen]

^^ Another wind-up merchant. The user name's a bit vague though, so i guess you could've played the game for a little while.

[epiclyaddicted]

And I hope at Silverstone we learn our lesson and throw the rule book out the window.
Full speed in and out of the pits.

If the SC is deployed pass it and race full blast to be the first one to pit.

If the marshalls deploy a yellow, ignore it and pretend it's green.

If we're leading the pack behind the safety car constantly brake hard down to 5 MPH to mess everyone behind us up and hopefully end someone's day.

When someone wants to pass us weave like we're avoiding land mines and mortar shells.

As soon as the first red light turns on at the start, take off and start the race. The drive through won't make a difference, even a stop and go won't make a difference.

When someone beats us in the pit (despite going in full speed), shove them into the wall or the mechanics area. Hopefully they'll run over a wheel gun.


Amen to that! :bow

[Aldai]

And I hope at Silverstone we learn our lesson and throw the rule book out the window.
Full speed in and out of the pits.

If the SC is deployed pass it and race full blast to be the first one to pit.

If the marshalls deploy a yellow, ignore it and pretend it's green.

If we're leading the pack behind the safety car constantly brake hard down to 5 MPH to mess everyone behind us up and hopefully end someone's day.

When someone wants to pass us weave like we're avoiding land mines and mortar shells.

As soon as the first red light turns on at the start, take off and start the race. The drive through won't make a difference, even a stop and go won't make a difference.

When someone beats us in the pit (despite going in full speed), shove them into the wall or the mechanics area. Hopefully they'll run over a wheel gun.


+10000!!!

[RedRebel40]

lol if Schumacher did this he would be given black flag

[MarlboroFA]

Totally agreed.
It really winds me up when Hamilton conveniently "can't remember" stuff in the race, like passing the SC for example. What a BS master. Please DO NOT insult our intelligence! :-!

I tell you what, i loved it (after qually?) when Hamilton went to shake Alonso's hand and Alonso just completely blanked him :lol. Brilliant. You see, i like people like that. They don't hide how they feel about someone, rather than being a fake. I try to be like that myself. People may see it as moody or ignorant but i'd rather be straight like that, rather than acting.
I was debating with someone at work (a "you MUST support English drivers/teams type person":roll:roll) about that incident and his thoughts are that FA is a "spoilt Spanish brat who still sulks over 2007 when he got beat".

What's his nationality got to do with anything?
Yeah, LH really thrashed him in 2007 didn't he. :roll


:clap +1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000
two faced pigs smile in your face to then stab you in your back....what you see is what you get with me......

[Suzie]

I tell you what, i loved it (after qually?) when Hamilton went to shake Alonso's hand and Alonso just completely blanked him :lol.


Ooh I must have missed that! Will have to re-watch it.

[Stormsearcher]

Isnt this the second time in 3 races Lewser has come up with.. "oh i didnt see who was coming on my side and suddenly i am alongside him".... comment? I think it was earlier about alonso being alongside in the pitlane and now the SC.
How much longer are the FIA going to believe this BS. He is most political of all drivers.. ever. A rotten sneak.

[Vittorio]

What's with the nationality bashing? I am Scottish not British not English, Ferrari is not about nations, keep a lid on it

Dude, if you're Scottish you are British, whether you like it or not...since 1701 in fact...LOL

Become a real nation and then you've earned the right to get all snooty about being called British, okay... ;-)

Sorry, but you so had that coming to you...

As for your point about the whole 'British' thing, it's nonsense, and you should know that. The British press is heavily critical of Ferrari at any given time, and in the UK media it seems Hamboy and McCheaters can do no wrong. They are as partisan about the British drivers and British teams as the Italian media is partisan about Ferrari.

Nothing annoys me more than any British journalist coming over all sanctimonious and pukka pukka 'objective', when the British press at all levels is amongst the most jingoistic and nationalistic of any on the planet. It's a farce and hypocritical.

Yes, there are Ferrari supporters from all over the world, of course. But Ferrari is first and foremost an Italian team - with everything, both good and bad, that goes with that.

I'm often amazed at how many people, even some Ferrari supporters included, so lose the fact that Ferrari is an intrinsically Italian team, even with all the foreign influences therein. And, yes, that does shape the team and it does make the whole 'nation' thing actually quite important to a certain extent.

[Vittorio]

Brilliant!!!:lol:clap:clap


And I hope at Silverstone we learn our lesson and throw the rule book out the window.
Full speed in and out of the pits.

If the SC is deployed pass it and race full blast to be the first one to pit.

If the marshalls deploy a yellow, ignore it and pretend it's green.

If we're leading the pack behind the safety car constantly brake hard down to 5 MPH to mess everyone behind us up and hopefully end someone's day.

When someone wants to pass us weave like we're avoiding land mines and mortar shells.

As soon as the first red light turns on at the start, take off and start the race. The drive through won't make a difference, even a stop and go won't make a difference.

When someone beats us in the pit (despite going in full speed), shove them into the wall or the mechanics area. Hopefully they'll run over a wheel gun.

[Vittorio]

TROLL

I'll second that - TROLL indeed

[Vittorio]

Trouble??? That's something 10 year olds get in to. We'll be calling for Ferrari to smack his botty next. You always know where you are with someone who speaks their mind. The PC brigade on the other hand... They say stuff equally bad, but prefer to do it behind your back like cowards. The world needs more Fernandos. Fewer Lewis's.

Brilliant post - totally agreed! :clap

Absolutely - more people who speak their minds and less of these ass-kissing corporate hacks (read: Lewis and his ilk) who 'say all the right things' like the hypocritical Stepford Wives that they are...

[Vittorio]

good point. That was a very very risky stunt, F1 wouldnt want another dreadfull accident like Tom Pryce's. RIP Tom.

Thought Charlie was going to put SC out. How did that bottle get there? Is Bernie going to take action on the organisers for that? he would if happen here at Silverstone or Spa or even Interlagos.

So true. I too was squirming when I saw that marshall sprint to pick up that bottle and immediately thought of poor Tom Pryce. Madness that they allowed that.

In fact, I was at that fateful South African Grand Prix at Kyalami in 1977. We were sat just at Crowthorne Corner and saw Tom Pryce's Shadow barreling down the main straight and literally launch itself over Jacques Laffite's Ligier, before crashing into the barriers right near us. Really horrible.

[crewskas]

By the way,
have you read the "excuse" of Mark Hughes regarding the delay?
Okay, time to laugh people:


‘In determining whether an offence had been committed he had a few key difficulties. There was no timekeeping loop at that part of the track, so the evidence was going to rely on footage and the transponders of each car – Hamilton’s and the safety car – as they crossed the safety car line.

‘The in-car footage from Hamilton was far from decisive in that it was such a close call that the angle of the view could not support a conclusion. He then ordered aerial footage from the official Formula 1 Management helicopter – and this took some time to be found.

‘The complication of the transponders in the two cars was that they were almost certainly at differing lengths from the frontal extremities of each car, so Whiting was seeking this information too. Only once he had all this compiled did he feel confident in confirming that an offence had taken place.

‘At this point, he could have chosen a harsher penalty that would have had a greater detrimental effect on Hamilton’s position. But the precedent for this offence is a drive-through. It is not in the regulations, but is at the race director’s discretion.’

Regarding the bold, why I think that we saw a lot, lot earlier the aerial replay much much earlier than the punishment?
Oh wait a minute, probably because he's writing BS...! :lol

[crewskas]

By the way,
have you read the "excuse" of Mark Hughes regarding the delay?
Okay, time to laugh people:


‘In determining whether an offence had been committed he had a few key difficulties. There was no timekeeping loop at that part of the track, so the evidence was going to rely on footage and the transponders of each car – Hamilton’s and the safety car – as they crossed the safety car line.

‘The in-car footage from Hamilton was far from decisive in that it was such a close call that the angle of the view could not support a conclusion. He then ordered aerial footage from the official Formula 1 Management helicopter – and this took some time to be found.

‘The complication of the transponders in the two cars was that they were almost certainly at differing lengths from the frontal extremities of each car, so Whiting was seeking this information too. Only once he had all this compiled did he feel confident in confirming that an offence had taken place.

‘At this point, he could have chosen a harsher penalty that would have had a greater detrimental effect on Hamilton’s position. But the precedent for this offence is a drive-through. It is not in the regulations, but is at the race director’s discretion.’

Regarding the bold, why I think that we saw a lot, lot earlier the aerial replay than the punishment?
Oh wait a minute, probably because he's writing BS...! :lol

[Hermann]

Of course. Whiting is still using paper and pencil in the races. Back to the roots.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/automotive/issue-15/sport/PublishingImages/issue13-art1.jpg


Only once he had all this compiled did he feel confident in confirming that an offence had taken place.

LOL sorry but too much is too much....



10 if <morenin> go to 20, if <alonso> go to 30, if <someone_else> go to 40
20 let pass and go to 50
30 open "worst_sanction.exe", if <doesn't exist> create one
40 if <same infraction morenin> let pass and go to 50, if not open "sanction.exe"
50 End

*copyright by Monza06*

[epiclyaddicted]

To be honest, I personally think Mark Hughes is one of the more unbiased journalists. At least he made an attempt to put up both sides of the argument, rather than just slating Alonso.

May be there is a little bit of anti-Ferrari mentality within the FIA - I'm saying may be, I don't know, I'm sure Jean Todt wouldn't like to be blamed for favouring his old employer - but I don't really buy into the idea of the race being "manipulated". The FIA just made a mess of their own rules, nothing more. Problem is, as Mark Hughes said in that article, the regulations do not state a clear penalty for the offence of overtaking the SC. It's under the race director's discretion. May be that needs to be changed, and there needs to be clear wording in the regulations saying that the penalty for overtaking the SC is black flag and disqualification. Leaving it up to the race director's discretion is what created the problems last Sunday.

Now that the precedent has been set - by Lewis getting a simple drive-through for this offence - give me one reason why every other car from here onwards would not be tempted to ignore the SC and blast round to the pits at full racing speed, make up some time, and then just take the drive-through? That just doesn't spoil the racing, but it can be downright dangerous. That's what FOTA and the FIA need to look at when they sit down for that meeting before Silverstone.

[crewskas]

Now that the precedent has been set - by Lewis getting a simple drive-through for this offence - give me one reason why every other car from here onwards would not be tempted to ignore the SC and blast round to the pits at full racing speed, make up some time, and then just take the drive-through? That just doesn't spoil the racing, but it can be downright dangerous. That's what FOTA and the FIA need to look at when they sit down for that meeting before Silverstone.

One good reason, is because the next time, the penalty will be imposed immediately...
And this I think is the problem. Not the type of penalty, but the delay of the penalty.
I mean, come on.
Just an aerial replay is what you need. Play, pause when SC reaches the line. Is he braking the rules?
Penalty immediately. From the incident until the penalty, there was 50 minutes delay....50!

[mad_ani]

Looking for this for a while...DID ANY FORMER F1 driver JOIN THE STEWARDS PANEL for VALENCIA??? If so who???

It is now reported that charlie took a while to get the ariel footage.....All we saw was the onboard footage from LH.

[Hermann]

Looking for this for a while...DID ANY FORMER F1 driver JOIN THE STEWARDS PANEL for VALENCIA??? If so who???

It is now reported that charlie took a while to get the ariel footage.....All we saw was the onboard footage from LH.


Frentzen. He probably pushed the button for the red light to make Schumacher wait in the pitlane :-D

[mad_ani]

Frentzen. He probably pushed the button for the red light to make Schumacher wait in the pitlane :-D

LOL, Thanks mate, looks like revenge for stealing a girlfriend :lol

[epiclyaddicted]

One good reason, is because the next time, the penalty will be imposed immediately...
And this I think is the problem. Not the type of penalty, but the delay of the penalty.
I mean, come on.
Just an aerial replay is what you need. Play, pause when SC reaches the line. Is he braking the rules?
Penalty immediately. From the incident until the penalty, there was 50 minutes delay....50!

Yes, but still, a drive-through is the minimum penalty that the stewards can impose during a race. My point was that, overtaking the safety car can be dangerous. The SC is meant to slow the field down because of an incident. What if, after Webber's crash, there was debris spread out all over on that part of the track? Imagine how dangerous it would be of an F1 car running over those debris, creating a possible life-threatening situation for the nearby marshals and spectators!

Ok, I'm a exaggerating a bit, but I'm just saying that overtaking a SC can be dangerous, and the penalty should be black flag, simple as that.

Next time there is an incident on the track that requires the SC to come out, and someone (*cough* Lewis *cough*) decides to take their chance by overtaking the SC and racing round to the pits, creates a horrible accident in the process - the FIA will only have themselves to blame!

[Hornet]

Frentzen. He probably pushed the button for the red light to make Schumacher wait in the pitlane :-D

LOLOL :rotfl

[Suzie]

Yes, but still, a drive-through is the minimum penalty that the stewards can impose during a race. My point was that, overtaking the safety car can be dangerous. The SC is meant to slow the field down because of an incident. What if, after Webber's crash, there was debris spread out all over on that part of the track? Imagine how dangerous it would be of an F1 car running over those debris, creating a possible life-threatening situation for the nearby marshals and spectators!

Ok, I'm a exaggerating a bit, but I'm just saying that overtaking a SC can be dangerous, and the penalty should be black flag, simple as that.

Next time there is an incident on the track that requires the SC to come out, and someone (*cough* Lewis *cough*) decides to take their chance by overtaking the SC and racing round to the pits, creates a horrible accident in the process - the FIA will only have themselves to blame!

Totally agree - maybe not even just debris, there could be marshalls too. After all, the Safety Car is out for a flipping reason. My view is that Lewis probably wasn't 100% sure about where the line was, but then thought 'To hell with it, I'll chance it anyway.'

[epiclyaddicted]

Totally agree - maybe not even just debris, there could be marshalls too. After all, the Safety Car is out for a flipping reason. My view is that Lewis probably wasn't 100% sure about where the line was, but then thought 'To hell with it, I'll chance it anyway.'

Yes, may be Lewis overtaking the SC was marginal, but it doesn't matter if he passed by a metre or a mile; the fact is that he overtook the SC. And the advantage he gained from that far outweighed the cost of the drive-through penalty. In other words, the penalty was worth it.

And that's what I'm trying to say. That the FIA has set a precedent, which basically says that overtaking the SC gives you a far bigger advantage than what the subsequent penalty would cost you. F1 drivers are notoriously competitive souls. If they think, that despite the move being illegal, they can get away with it, we'll see it happening week in week out. And that just takes us back to the point of safety.

Which is why I said, the FIA needs to put this in the regulations with clear wording: no matter what the situation is, overtaking a SC would always result in a black flag and disqualification. The FIA has done so much in recent years to strengthen the monocoque and the driver's survivor cell and what not all in the name of safety, but they leave some of the crucial SC regs ambiguous, and at the "race director's discretion". That just doesn't make sense. It has to be in black and white in the regulations, so that all the teams and the drivers know exactly what's at stake.