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vcs316
29th June 2010, 03:33
Ferrari's rage against the outcome of the European grand prix went from bad to worse on Monday.

With Fernando Alonso having accused the stewards of manipulating the Valencia race, the Italian team echoed the apparent view of some fans that Lewis Hamilton's drive-through penalty for overtaking the safety car was a "scandal".

But in another website report on Monday, Ferrari stepped up its attack, repeating the view of one fan that had hit out at "McLaren thieves" who were "up to their usual dirty tricks".

Another fan said: "The FIA at Valencia showed it's not entirely in charge of the events that it's organising", and yet another added: "Is this the latest version of Jean Todt? Those who order and manipulate are always the same."

Ferrari quoted another fan as saying: "Federation of clowns! What help is a five-second penalty? Useless and the usual English mafia!"

And another: "Enough with the help for Hamilton. How can he lie and cheat and still get away scot-free?"

Mirror correspondent Byron Young wrote on Twitter that in "Max Mosley's day", there would be "sanctions" for accusing the FIA of fixing races.

When the rage intensified on Monday, he added: "Are the FIA going to act or will Jean Todt dodge the first big F1 test of his presidency?"

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=375162

vcs316
29th June 2010, 03:37
Hamilton tells furious Ferrari to 'accept' rules

Ferrari has added an equally stinging appraisal of Sunday's European grand prix, after driver Fernando Alonso accused the FIA stewards of manipulating the result.

Alonso was critical of McLaren's Lewis Hamilton receiving a drive-through penalty but still managing to finish second, after illegally overtaking the safety car.

Spaniard Alonso's F10 had been immediately behind Hamilton at the time, but finished the race just ninth.

In a report posted on its official website, Ferrari said the outcome in Valencia is "a scandal".

"The way the race and the incidents during it were managed raise doubts that could see formula one lose some credibility again, as it was seen around the world," read the report.

Speaking to reporters afterwards, Hamilton initially said he couldn't remember passing the safety car, but then said he thought he had passed it when he spotted it in the pit entry, "so I continued".

Later, in an official statement, the Briton said: "I took my penalty - it's quite a long time to spend at 60kmh in the pitlane - and I came out second.

"I don't see how that's unfair -- it's racing, and those are the rules, and we all have to accept them."

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=375090

XXX132
29th June 2010, 04:36
It's like a professional foul in soccer, the punishment used to be less severe than what the foul prevented. Now they red card footballers. So what does MacFIA intend to do about deliberate flouting of SC rules...

vcs316
29th June 2010, 09:38
Hamilton hits back at Alonso

Lewis Hamilton has accused Fernando Alonso of sour grapes as their bitter rivalry resurfaced following Sunday's contentious European Grand Prix.

Alonso opened a can of worms after the race in Valencia by stating it had been "manipulated," and accusing Hamilton of disrespecting the rules as he overtook the safety car deployed following Mark Webber's spectacular crash.

Ferrari team boss Stefano Domenicali, President Luca di Montezemolo and vice-president Piero Ferrari have all since expressed anger and bitterness at the events that unfolded.

Di Montezemolo, claiming what took place was "unacceptable" and that it has created "dangerous precedents," has even suggested the FIA should look into the matter and take further action.

It is highly unlikely they will do so, nor are they likely to punish Alonso for comments that could be construed as calling into question the integrity of race director Charlie Whiting and his stewards.

For his infringement, Hamilton was handed a drive-through penalty but retained second place, while Alonso finished eighth after he filed in behind the safety car when running third behind Hamilton at the time.

Asked if Alonso's comments were a case of sour grapes, Hamilton replied: "Yeah.

"I even saw him overtaken by a Sauber on the big screen (referring to Kamui Kobayashi's pass on Alonso on the penultimate lap).

"It's very unlike him to be overtaken by a Sauber so he must have been completely in another world. But I don't understand why I affected his race so much.

"Everyone has a right to their opinion, and he must be disappointed with his own result, but I didn't do anything to him."

Defending the stewards, who have penalised Hamilton for a number of infractions in the past, the 25-year-old added: "The FIA are doing an incredible job because they are allowing us to race this year."

Despite Alonso's grievances, and all those within Ferrari, they appear to be a lone voice in the wilderness on this occasion.

Naturally defending Hamilton, McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh said: "If you look at the incident itself it was very, very difficult to avoid what happened.

"It was minuscule, and so it goes to the stewards and they made a decision.

"That is pretty normal in my experience of motor racing, but Fernando may have a different set of experiences."

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6236710/Hamilton-Alonso-s-Gripes-Sour-Grapes

Ferrari_Fanatic
29th June 2010, 09:51
Ramilton is a joke! he says to accept the rules why don't he!! He should have been black flagged like he was when he overtook the saftey car in GP2 Imola 2006

If Jean don't do anything he'll be just as bad as the other joker max whippin mosley!!!

Ant Raikkonen
29th June 2010, 10:42
Asked if Alonso's comments were a case of sour grapes, Hamilton replied:

"Yeah.
"I even saw him overtaken by a Sauber on the big screen (referring to Kamui Kobayashi's pass on Alonso on the penultimate lap).
"It's very unlike him to be overtaken by a Sauber so he must have been completely in another world. But I don't understand why I affected his race so much".

FRESH TYRES!!! You utter cretin!!!

Greig
29th June 2010, 10:48
Ferrari are right to say the penalty was not right, but now we are giving our rivals a good laugh, some of the comments from the team do just make us look complete babies :-)

Andy
29th June 2010, 10:49
Just found it's not the first time LH has problems (cheats and lies) with SC.

IMOLA 2006 GP2 - Result: black-flagged

http://www.crash.net/gp2/news/67122/1/hamilton_safety_car_was_confusing.html

Ciao :-)

zakfourie
29th June 2010, 11:26
Ferrari are right to say the penalty was not right, but now we are giving our rivals a good laugh, some of the comments from the team do just make us look complete babies :-)

True... Ferrari are expressing itself in the wrong way.

Can understand Alonso's frustration though...

Hermann
29th June 2010, 11:29
True... Ferrari are expressing itself in the wrong way.

Can understand Alonso's frustration though...

What, in your oppinion, would be the 'right' way?

vcs316
29th June 2010, 11:42
Hamilton needed black flag for Valencia foul - Briatore

Tuesday 29 June at 10:01 : Jun.29 (GMM) Lewis Hamilton should have been disqualified from Sunday's European grand prix.

That is the claim of disgraced former Renault boss Flavio Briatore, who after re-appearing in the Monaco paddock last month, was seen on the grid prior to the Valencia street race.

Although conspiring to fix the 2008 Singapore grand prix by asking Nelson Piquet to crash deliberately, Briatore agrees with Ferrari and Fernando Alonso that Hamilton's drive-through penalty for overtaking the safety car was too mild.

"The rules aren't precise," he is quoted as telling Italy's Sky Sport 24.

"You can't have a penalty for Hamilton after 20 laps, it should be (after) 2 or 3," said the 60-year-old.

Briatore added: "Passing the safety car is more like a black flag penalty. Hamilton is lucky; everything he does turns out well."

And as for the travails of his protege Alonso's current team Ferrari, the Italian said: "What is Ferrari missing? Speed; they are not on the level of Red Bull and McLaren."

http://www.onestopstrategy.com/dailyf1news/nieuw/article/11614-Hamilton+needed+black+flag+for+Valencia+foul+-+Briatore.html

RedRebel40
29th June 2010, 12:55
Ferrari are right to say the penalty was not right, but now we are giving our rivals a good laugh, some of the comments from the team do just make us look complete babies :-)

which comments mate?

Salvador Dali
29th June 2010, 12:55
I must admit that I was very mad at the end result of the race. I also think that LH should have gotten a black flag! But IMHO the real problem for me (and possiblly Ferrari) is that LH breaked before the safty car came out (when there were sighns that the SC would arrive) thus slowing down the Ferrari drivers and than at the last moment going back on the throttle to get past the SC. This is my opinion only! But if it is true (a good look at his telemetry would solve this in a few minuts) that this is calling for a much harsher punishment that a black flag. 2 race ban minimum!!!

But having said that Ferrari is not helping their couse by throwing stones at the FIA... This can and should be done in a more politicaly correct manner.

Just my 5 cents

hogo
29th June 2010, 13:11
Defending the stewards, who have penalised Hamilton for a number of infractions in the past, the 25-year-old added: "The FIA are doing an incredible job because they are allowing us to CHEAT this year."

fixed.

ferrari4life
29th June 2010, 14:04
Its over nothing is gonna change. Move on and show them on the track who talks.

MarlboroFA
29th June 2010, 14:35
Greig I think you are verry wrong m8.....

Look at Football, the whole world was behing first Ireland after the hands ball from Henry (another cheater)..... Then England and Mexico....To they call English or Mexicans moaners or have a good laugh at them ?? I don`t think so maybe the fans of Germany and Mexico but hey that`s what fans do.....and we all know most of the British press is Hamilton/Mclaren fan so I don`t care about what they say....

And to be realistic Bernie FIA etc etc just love these kind of things....What to do to get better ratings and have the world talking about instead of football...shall we bring them good racing...no that doesn`t sell lets do something radical.......
They need drivers like Alonso......

Greig
29th June 2010, 14:43
Spain has 2 GP's because of Alonso, to say F1 does not need him is a bit OTT, football is football, F1 is F1 :-)

xpman
29th June 2010, 17:27
I have no idear why people getting all upset about this #### happens!!! If Luka, Alonso and all the rest want reply to what happend then is very Easy Win at Silverstone !!!! and then Win the WCC,WDC.
I could argue is Not good for the sport every year we have some Familyspat between ferrari and mclaren . As for the FIA well Ferrari had its chance in Killing the FIA but it was Seduced by Bernie and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ when there was a threat for a break away formula.
Think the FIA and the FA are related as they both USELESS

MarlboroFA
29th June 2010, 17:44
Spain has 2 GP's because of Alonso, to say F1 does not need him is a bit OTT, football is football, F1 is F1 :-)

??? I didn`t say they don`t need him....I said they need drivers like him.....It`s good for the show so good for the pocket.....

F1 is F1 and Football is Football, but the people who watch it are the same....And just like in Football the people who say the bad things are usually not fans of whom they saying things about....;-)

Zenmaster
29th June 2010, 18:24
God, Ferrari are embarrassing right now. Wish They'd just shut up and get on with it.

Suzie
29th June 2010, 18:51
Asked if Alonso's comments were a case of sour grapes, Hamilton replied:

"Yeah.
"I even saw him overtaken by a Sauber on the big screen (referring to Kamui Kobayashi's pass on Alonso on the penultimate lap).
"It's very unlike him to be overtaken by a Sauber so he must have been completely in another world. But I don't understand why I affected his race so much".

FRESH TYRES!!! You utter cretin!!!

:lol

Fernando vs Lewis... ding ding! Round 2!

Brakefade
29th June 2010, 18:51
Watch this. You'll feel better. Let's fight on in Silverstone. Beat the clowns in their home turf.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOIxQP5PUSM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6kiPFOpFTM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRJTRwPGprs

Rob
29th June 2010, 19:00
God, Ferrari are embarrassing right now. Wish They'd just shut up and get on with it.

Why should they??? at end of day we were robbed of a double podium finish and 1 team (driver) has stuck his fingers up at the FIA and rules and carried on passing the SC. Its just them (us) let of ALOT of steam and PASSION.

Now Hamilton has said that, then cos it go enrage Ferrari and Alonso even more. Hamilton should just put his hands up, and say i made mistake and im very sorry. I didnt fully understand the rules.

Rob
29th June 2010, 19:11
Whitmarsh: Hamilton penalty 'marginal'
:lol this is fuuny read!! even Whitmarsh saying they done nothing wrong!! please..

Eurosport - Tue, 29 Jun 12:14:00 2010 www.eurosport.yahoo.co.uk

McLaren-Mercedes team principal Martin Whitmarsh has claimed Lewis Hamilton's penalty for overtaking the safety car during the European Grand Prix was a marginal decision - and that it cost the 2008 champion his chance of a third consecutive victory.


More StoriesHamilton: Alonso complaints 'sour grapes'
Ferrari still sore over Valencia incident
..Hamilton was given a drive-through penalty for having passed the safety car on his way back to the pit-lane in the immediate aftermath of Mark Webber's terrifying mid-air pirouette on lap nine around the Valencia street circuit.

The penalty halted Hamilton's challenge on race-long leader Sebastian Vettel, but the move allowed Hamilton to rejoin from his unscheduled extra pit visit still in second position - much to the anger of former team-mate and Ferrari rival Fernando Alonso.

"We've accepted Lewis' penalty, but in truth we reckon it was a pretty marginal call," Whitmarsh said.

"Okay, it didn't deprive him of his second place on-the-road, but it did prevent him from being able to take the race to Seb, which had been our intention.

"I think Lewis' strong pace in the last few laps showed that, having saved his fuel and tyres early on in preparation for mounting an attack on Seb, he would probably have been in a position to have a fair old crack at it had he not been given a drive-through.

"His penalty was frustrating for Lewis, frustrating for us, and ultimately I suppose you'd have to say it was frustrating for the spectators, at the track and in front of their TV screens, too - but, as I say, you have to accept these things and move on."

Hamilton was followed home in third spot by team-mate and reigning champion Jenson Button, whose race was blighted as he spent the vast majority of the time tucked up behind the out-of-position Sauber of Kamui Kobayashi.

"Jenson drove a very solid race, although it was of course irritating for him to be stuck behind Kamui for so long," Whitmarsh added.

"Having said that, in the chaos that always ensues with an early safety car, our engineers called the situation really well, with the result that we were able to change the nosebox on Lewis' car (following contact with Vettel's Red Bull Racing on the opening lap) and send our cars back out in second and fourth.

"Actually, of course, Jenson's fourth place was in effect third, because Kamui was always going to have to make a pit-stop for new tyres at some stage in the race. It was a shame for Jenson to be stuck behind Kamui for so long - but, again, racing can be frustrating and sometimes there's simply nothing you can do about it."

Crash.net / Eurosport

Grinsomx
29th June 2010, 19:55
boohoohoo, poor hamster boy cheated, got penalised but still gained a lot by doing so.
such a marginal penalty, poor poor hamster got away with cheating but was not allowed to race SV.
lets all be sad for the poor Mccheater boy because he wasn't allowed to get even more out of breaking the rules.... give me a break.

Rob
29th June 2010, 20:03
boohoohoo, poor hamster boy cheated, got penalised but still gained a lot by doing so.
such a marginal penalty, poor poor hamster got away with cheating but was not allowed to race SV.
lets all be sad for the poor Mccheater boy because he wasn't allowed to get even more out of breaking the rules.... give me a break.

:lol:thumb sad aint it. He gained an unfair advantage.

Stormsearcher
29th June 2010, 20:49
Ferrari should be taking this matter up in a cleverer way. By publicly tarnishing the FIA, we will never get the result we want. I think a careful look into lewis telemetry should reveal a lot.

I am just praying that we dont go overboard and get the FIA mad enuf to penalise us!!.. for that reason alone, i would say.. move on. We can take them on the race track at silverstone.

MS7XWDC
29th June 2010, 21:44
ironic how Ferrari said 'the rules are clear' about Monaco [when obviously they were not & needed official re-writing], and now they complain about the absolutely clear rules --- perhaps it is a stupid rule / penalty regarding Hamilton / Alonso, but what comes around, goes around - the rules are totally clear .... I doubt many feel sympathy for them ....

here is a case where the absolutely clear rules bit them.

Greig
29th June 2010, 22:03
ironic how Ferrari said 'the rules are clear' about Monaco [when obviously they were not & needed official re-writing], and now they complain about the absolutely clear rules --- perhaps it is a stupid rule / penalty regarding Hamilton / Alonso, but what comes around, goes around - the rules are totally clear .... I doubt many feel sympathy for them ....

here is a case where the absolutely clear rules bit them.

Can you show me where the 5 second time penalty is in the rulebook please, can you also show me the ruling regarding the overtaking of the SC.....I am assume you have both at hand otherwise you would not have posted what you did, so over to you :-)

Tifosi
29th June 2010, 22:34
ironic how Ferrari said 'the rules are clear' about Monaco [when obviously they were not & needed official re-writing], and now they complain about the absolutely clear rules --- perhaps it is a stupid rule / penalty regarding Hamilton / Alonso, but what comes around, goes around - the rules are totally clear .... I doubt many feel sympathy for them ....

here is a case where the absolutely clear rules bit them.

again, not irony.

Ferrari_Fanatic
29th June 2010, 23:35
Can you show me where the 5 second time penalty is in the rulebook please, can you also show me the ruling regarding the overtaking of the SC.....I am assume you have both at hand otherwise you would not have posted what you did, so over to you :-)

im still waiting too :-)

without looking at the rulebook

Ramilton should have been black flagged (like he was in gp2 imola 2006)
other 9 should have had 25 sec penalty added to their time as it was after the race (maybe 20 if im mistaken)

raylinds
30th June 2010, 00:37
I have refrained from commenting about this because I was traveling and did not see the race until tonight. This was an obvious travesty and a blatant bias by Whiting (either pro-McLaren or anti-Ferrari or both). The Speed TV commentators, who are always anti-Ferrari and pro-McLaren were shocked that Hamilton did not get at least a 10 second stop-and-go. They also expected at least a 20 to 30 second penalty for the other cheaters because, as they kept saying, that Whiting takes safety violations very seriously. Obviously he does not.

Hamilton's violation was in no way marginal or questionable- the rule clearly states you cannot pass the safety car and Hamilton clearly did so- not even close.

I will say this- there is clearly an anti-Ferrari bias by the FIA and the other teams (who are saying Ferrari is overreacting), but Ferrari is not helping the situation by lashing out. I am furious at the events of the race, but there are better ways to address it than trashing the FIA in public (as much as that may be warranted).

Also, Todt cannot come to Ferrari's aid as he would be accused of favoring his old team. As it is, he is being criticized for not taking action against Ferrari. This is why I did not want him to be FIA president.

While the SC rules are stupid, that is not the problem here. The problem is a lax enforcement of existing rules. The delay in the decision, though annoying is not the issue. The penalty for all of the SC violators were far too lenient. Much more of this and I will stop following F1 altogether.

Hamilton said he thought he passed the safety car, then why did he slow down before passing it? Obviously a lie.

XXX132
30th June 2010, 04:57
Liewser doesn't lie dude... :lol

mad_ani
30th June 2010, 05:58
Can you show me where the 5 second time penalty is in the rulebook please, can you also show me the ruling regarding the overtaking of the SC.....I am assume you have both at hand otherwise you would not have posted what you did, so over to you :-)


I believe its from here...power of the stewards..


152: Any breach of this Code or the Appendices thereto, of the national rules or their appendices, or of any Supplementary Regulations committed by any organiser, official, competitor, driver, or other person or organisation may be penalised or fined.
Penalties or fines may be inflicted by the stewards of the meeting and ASNs as indicated in the following articles. [...]
153: Penalties may be inflicted as follows in order of increasing severity:
− reprimand (blame);
− fines;
− time penalty;
− exclusion;
− suspension;
− disqualification.
Time penalty means a penalty expressed in minutes and/or seconds.
FIA International Sporting Code


Nothing agaisnt the drivers or negative in this post...just the rulebook and possible source of teh 5 sec penalty

Greig
30th June 2010, 06:42
Sorry I can't find that in the 2010 regs? - http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/65EE8F15945D0941C12576C7005308AE/$FILE/1-2010%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2023-06-2010.pdf


16.3 The stewards may impose any one of three penalties on any driver involved in an Incident :
a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping ;
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds
and then re-join the race.
c) a drop of any number of grid positions at the driver’s next Event.
However, should either of the penalties under a) and b) above be imposed during the last five laps, or after
the end of a race, Article 16.4b) below will not apply and 20 seconds will be added to the elapsed race time
of the driver concerned in the case of a) above and 30 seconds in the case of b).

mad_ani
30th June 2010, 07:07
Mate, thats from the International Sporting code

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/F0605DD7DE22E30FC12576AD00396B90/$FILE/CSI-apr%C3%A8s-AGOct.09-ANG-GSmodifi%C3%A9-trad.pdf


Unsure which of the two takes precedence...but again...its the FIA

killer
30th June 2010, 07:10
I have refrained from commenting about this because I was traveling and did not see the race until tonight. This was an obvious travesty and a blatant bias by Whiting (either pro-McLaren or anti-Ferrari or both). The Speed TV commentators, who are always anti-Ferrari and pro-McLaren were shocked that Hamilton did not get at least a 10 second stop-and-go. They also expected at least a 20 to 30 second penalty for the other cheaters because, as they kept saying, that Whiting takes safety violations very seriously. Obviously he does not.

Hamilton's violation was in no way marginal or questionable- the rule clearly states you cannot pass the safety car and Hamilton clearly did so- not even close.

I will say this- there is clearly an anti-Ferrari bias by the FIA and the other teams (who are saying Ferrari is overreacting), but Ferrari is not helping the situation by lashing out. I am furious at the events of the race, but there are better ways to address it than trashing the FIA in public (as much as that may be warranted).

Also, Todt cannot come to Ferrari's aid as he would be accused of favoring his old team. As it is, he is being criticized for not taking action against Ferrari. This is why I did not want him to be FIA president.

While the SC rules are stupid, that is not the problem here. The problem is a lax enforcement of existing rules. The delay in the decision, though annoying is not the issue. The penalty for all of the SC violators were far too lenient. Much more of this and I will stop following F1 altogether.

Hamilton said he thought he passed the safety car, then why did he slow down before passing it? Obviously a lie.

Co-signed.

The delay, the apparent arbitrary nature of the penalties, and the disproportionate allocation of penalties: this isn't some kiddie carting league--the officials better act the part.

Grinsomx
30th June 2010, 07:50
Mate, thats from the International Sporting code

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/F0605DD7DE22E30FC12576AD00396B90/$FILE/CSI-apr%C3%A8s-AGOct.09-ANG-GSmodifi%C3%A9-trad.pdf


Unsure which of the two takes precedence...but again...its the FIA


being an international sport, shouldn't the international sporting code have priority ?
just throwing it out there as i really dont know this for sure, just seems logical...but again...it's the FIA

mad_ani
30th June 2010, 08:50
The rule still seems unfair, as JB explained...if the SC warning lights start flashing on a high speed corner..its difficult to brake sponaneously...If telemetry and GPS was able to determine those penalties, wasnt it good enf to determine where the SC was wrt Hamilton?? Charlie W had to rely on an ariel shot to penalise Lewis..(which did take time, acc to reports).. Initial benifit of doubt would go to Hamilton, as sitting in a car so low and those speeds, it would have been difficult for an f1 driver to judge who was ahead..judging by a meter and a half at speeds of 100kmph+.....He was penalised after a while, but by which he had made up time by fastest laps in clear track ahead of him...

Unfortunate that Ferrari lost out, but being emotional and disrespecting stewards would do no one good....

IMO, Alonso was the benfactor in S'pore 08, but the results werent overturned then even though the race was fixed then, but calling this race manipulated was incorrect

vcs316
1st July 2010, 03:23
Spanish press toys with English Hamilton quote

A mischievous Spanish press is ramping up the acrimony between Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton.

Earlier this week, after Alonso had accused the FIA of manipulating the outcome of the European grand prix, his former McLaren teammate Hamilton responded by surmising that the Spaniard was suffering from "sour grapes".

But, in fact, the Briton did not actually utter the words, instead merely answering "yeah" to a reporter's interpretation of Alonso's outbursts.

However, rather than simply repeat the 'sour grapes' expression, which originates from one of Aesop's Fables, Spanish wire agencies said Hamilton accused Alonso of "envidia" (envy).

And when trying to explain Alonso's bad mood, Hamilton had said it was "very unlike him to be overtaken by a Sauber so he must have been completely in another world".

But the Spanish headline writers said simply that Hamilton had accused Alonso of "vive en otro mundo" (living in another world).

El Mundo newspaper combined the two, stating the Hamilton quote as "Alonso tiene envidia y debe vivir en otro mundo" (Alonso is envious and must live in another world).

Unsurprisingly, the AS newspaper responded with "Hamilton: por que no te callas?" (Hamilton: why don't you shut up?).

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=375377

redb
1st July 2010, 03:49
Spanish press toys with English Hamilton quote

A mischievous Spanish press is ramping up the acrimony between Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton.

Earlier this week, after Alonso had accused the FIA of manipulating the outcome of the European grand prix, his former McLaren teammate Hamilton responded by surmising that the Spaniard was suffering from "sour grapes".

But, in fact, the Briton did not actually utter the words, instead merely answering "yeah" to a reporter's interpretation of Alonso's outbursts.

However, rather than simply repeat the 'sour grapes' expression, which originates from one of Aesop's Fables, Spanish wire agencies said Hamilton accused Alonso of "envidia" (envy).

And when trying to explain Alonso's bad mood, Hamilton had said it was "very unlike him to be overtaken by a Sauber so he must have been completely in another world".

But the Spanish headline writers said simply that Hamilton had accused Alonso of "vive en otro mundo" (living in another world).

El Mundo newspaper combined the two, stating the Hamilton quote as "Alonso tiene envidia y debe vivir en otro mundo" (Alonso is envious and must live in another world).

Unsurprisingly, the AS newspaper responded with "Hamilton: por que no te callas?" (Hamilton: why don't you shut up?).

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=375377

Pot, Kettle.......black

English press oftentimes will twist anything coming out of Alonso's mouth, so I find the irony ..... redundant

Becool70
1st July 2010, 04:37
Asked if Alonso's comments were a case of sour grapes, Hamilton replied:

"Yeah.
"I even saw him overtaken by a Sauber on the big screen (referring to Kamui Kobayashi's pass on Alonso on the penultimate lap).
"It's very unlike him to be overtaken by a Sauber so he must have been completely in another world. But I don't understand why I affected his race so much".

FRESH TYRES!!! You utter cretin!!!

I read this article too and this is typical HAmster, he is passive agressive individual which is the worst kind, he is a coward and even though he knows the truth he still cant help himself in making stupid observations!!

You are correct the Sauber had soft fresh tyres and he was a second faster than ALO who had harder warn tyres and HAMster knows this buy again he choose to be a child and have a go... errrr!!!!

Becool70
1st July 2010, 04:48
Why should they??? at end of day we were robbed of a double podium finish and 1 team (driver) has stuck his fingers up at the FIA and rules and carried on passing the SC. Its just them (us) let of ALOT of steam and PASSION.

Now Hamilton has said that, then cos it go enrage Ferrari and Alonso even more. Hamilton should just put his hands up, and say i made mistake and im very sorry. I didnt fully understand the rules.

I AGREE!! Why should we be quiet about this? Everyone here would have reacted the same I think.. HAMster is a passive aggressive person and a coward!!

paneristi
1st July 2010, 07:05
IMO: let bygone be bygone. Now work harder, build faster car, better race strategist, key people, repeat 2002 & 2004.

MS7XWDC
2nd July 2010, 00:12
Can you show me where the 5 second time penalty is in the rulebook please, can you also show me the ruling regarding the overtaking of the SC.....I am assume you have both at hand otherwise you would not have posted what you did, so over to you :-)

I did not mention the 5 second penalties at all, so I have no clue why you are talking to me about it. I'm clearly talking about the rule / penalty regarding Hamilton / Alonso.

I'm sure you can find the FIA Sporting code online if you'd like to read the rule book. Keep in mind that nobody @ Ferrari claimed the rule was not clear. Hamilton got the same drive through that MS got @ Monaco for violating a SC rule. So for Ferrari to accept the Monaco decision [on a rule that needed to be re-written] without calling the results manipulated, and then to complain on a crystal clear rule that Hamilton broke & got the same exact penalty, makes them look like crybabies. It hurt Ferrari that the penalty ruling took that long, but remember Monaco took 3 hours to be decided, it happens.

Brakefade
2nd July 2010, 01:04
Hamilton is a coward among cowards. Remember him hiding behind the Mclaren goons when he got in trouble in Australia. Show your face you coward! I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, and if I was a businessman doing business with his dad I would take this a clue about what the Hamiltons are made of. They're cheats, liars, and COWARDS! And I completely agree with the last quote from AS. Callate el ocico estupido!

NJB13
2nd July 2010, 03:51
The rule still seems unfair, as JB explained...if the SC warning lights start flashing on a high speed corner..its difficult to brake sponaneously...

As I understand it the measurement is against a delta time for a sector not your immediate speed. So, even an average driver could manage to immediately take his "foot off the gas" and even brake if necessary to achieve the delta. I guess JB is simply admitting that, as an F1 driver he doesn't even have the talent to do that - perhaps he should loose his super licence for this admission.

MS7XWDC
2nd July 2010, 14:58
So, even an average driver could manage to immediately take his "foot off the gas" and even brake if necessary to achieve the delta.

I doubt braking / stopping on the track is very safe.

mad_ani
2nd July 2010, 15:16
As I understand it the measurement is against a delta time for a sector not your immediate speed. So, even an average driver could manage to immediately take his "foot off the gas" and even brake if necessary to achieve the delta. I guess JB is simply admitting that, as an F1 driver he doesn't even have the talent to do that - perhaps he should loose his super licence for this admission.

Mate..have u driven an F1 car???or even any formula category car...JB is a world champion and a pretty good driver IMO...Its dangerous bring a car to a halt like that...esp with relation to other cars following behind...nothing to do with talent...

NJB13
3rd July 2010, 08:20
Mate..have u driven an F1 car???or even any formula category car...JB is a world champion and a pretty good driver IMO...Its dangerous bring a car to a halt like that...esp with relation to other cars following behind...nothing to do with talent...

My point is that the delta time they have to meet is for a "sector". If Jammy Buffoon hasn't got the talent to take his foot off the accelerator in a high speed corner, then he could have braked immediately after corner. The fact is he WAS speeding through the complete sector - that is MORE than the one corner he was at when he was notified. You don't need to be an F1 driver to know how to reduce a sector time - irrespective of how you take any one corner in that sector.

mad_ani
3rd July 2010, 10:03
My point is that the delta time they have to meet is for a "sector". If Jammy Buffoon hasn't got the talent to take his foot off the accelerator in a high speed corner, then he could have braked immediately after corner. The fact is he WAS speeding through the complete sector - that is MORE than the one corner he was at when he was notified. You don't need to be an F1 driver to know how to reduce a sector time - irrespective of how you take any one corner in that sector.


Well 9 others did too..thats almost half the field...it was a rush to the safety car and everyone took advantage...its crazy..

vcs316
4th July 2010, 04:13
From protests to proposals

Almost a week on from the Valencia GP, the fans have calmed down, but they have certainly not forgotten what happened and Lorenzo Cloud has even opened a thread on the forum at www.ferrari.com to gather proposals to send to the President of the FIA. Lorenzo’s aim is clear: to let FIA know… “what we think is wrong with modern day F1, with specific reference to the incidents in Valencia and drivers who break the rules being treated too leniently.”

And as usual, the fans have not needed to be asked twice, with for example, Team 503 coming up with a detailed examination of things that need putting right, before concluding with an appreciation of the work done by the FIA. He writes: “however, it has to be said that Jean Todt, with the little work he was able to do concerning the 2010 regulations, has already done a good job with the points system, which previously veered towards a further reduction in the value of winning. We wish him all the best for his future endeavours.”

FrancoSacchi takes a more sceptical view, writing, “but in your opinion, would they make a clarification knowing that the biggest beneficiary would be Fernando Alonso? How can you think that.” The majority of comments however take a positive approach, as does maranellolover: “they should go back to closing the pit lane as was done before, especially now there is no longer the issue of refuelling. Maybe with the exception of changing tyres if it rains, or if the car is damaged. Indeed, if the pit lane was closed throughout the SC period it would be safer.”

Only RedF1 comes out in favour of penalties: "We need certain penalties and immediate decisions. Why does overtaking the SC in GP2 lead to the black flag and in F1 to a drive through penalty". Some have written to Ferrari directly, rather than going through the Forum, as did Alisa, a fan from Moscow, who in a long mail sends a concerned appeal to the Ferrari President. "Dear Luca! You are a president of the most famous and biggest sportcar company in the world. Ferrari has a very long autosport tradition, 60 years in Formula 1. But there comes a time when maybe it's better to stop being in Formula 1….." writes Alisa who also complains about the fact that testing is restricted and engine development frozen. "The engines are frozen, detuned and equalized. I'm sure Enzo would never allowed that. Engine is the heart of the car, engine is a real brand, not aerodynamics!" Alisa ends with a call to arms: "Ferrari should stand up and fight for the legacy of classic F1, for the legacy fo Enzo! Sorry for being passionate but this is how I feel"

So the fans are passionate and proactive about this sport, as was also seen at yesterday’s FOTA meeting, when fans, not just of Ferrari, discussed the future of Formula 1.

http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formula1/News/Headlines/Pages/100702_F1_From_protests_to_proposals.aspx

NJB13
4th July 2010, 05:45
Well 9 others did too..thats almost half the field...it was a rush to the safety car and everyone took advantage...its crazy..

Which proves Buffoon is a liar as well - or perhaps they were all on the same corner as him. Funny I don't remember any shots of 9-high F1 cars in the same corner. It had nothing to do with where they were on the track as I said in the beginning. This is probably the result of all the slack rulings this year - drivers are realizing it's worth breaking the rules cause you're just as likely to get a slap on the wrist.

mad_ani
4th July 2010, 06:50
Which proves Buffoon is a liar as well - or perhaps they were all on the same corner as him. Funny I don't remember any shots of 9-high F1 cars in the same corner. It had nothing to do with where they were on the track as I said in the beginning. This is probably the result of all the slack rulings this year - drivers are realizing it's worth breaking the rules cause you're just as likely to get a slap on the wrist.

There are no definitive rulings on the quantum of punishment a driver gets for an infringement...making it ambigious...SC rules have changed over the years...Would be nice if they make a rule and test all possible scenarios in a simulation and then confirm the rules....I believe FOTA can do it...and propose it to the FIA...Instead of racing and enjoying it...we have to decide the race positions after the race when we have finished it...

NJB13
4th July 2010, 06:58
There are no definitive rulings on the quantum of punishment a driver gets for an infringement...making it ambigious...SC rules have changed over the years...Would be nice if they make a rule and test all possible scenarios in a simulation and then confirm the rules....I believe FOTA can do it...and propose it to the FIA...Instead of racing and enjoying it...we have to decide the race positions after the race when we have finished it...

At least we now agree that Buffoon did lie and cheat.
In regards to penalties, the stewards have enough power in the existing laws to penalize those who do lie/cheat adequately. The most basic principles of crime and punishment is that your penalty exceeds the benefit of the crime. You don't get fined $1000 for stealing $1,000,000.

mad_ani
4th July 2010, 07:46
At least we now agree that Buffoon did lie and cheat.
In regards to penalties, the stewards have enough power in the existing laws to penalize those who do lie/cheat adequately. The most basic principles of crime and punishment is that your penalty exceeds the benefit of the crime. You don't get fined $1000 for stealing $1,000,000.

Lol, I dont think he lied...but it wasnt the whole truth anyways :-)...Unfortunately I dont have the full telemetry to decide who was where on the track at the time and what speeds they were doing (even GPS werent good enf for Charlie whiting to penalise Lewis...), to decisively label him a cheat..Everyone was opportunistic....If u realise...9 cars violated the speed limits...2 Ferraris were being escorted...Lewis had a bigger penalty, Hekki/Webber were out....the new teams were quite slow for them to go fast....Isnt it crazy to slow down the Ferraris and later punish most of the field.???

Penalties arent given depending on the atrocity or the nature of a crime as we saw during the Crash gate...and even the Renault Mclaren spygate...as I said...its stupid and unfair..but thats how it is...

MS7XWDC
4th July 2010, 23:51
Show me these clear rules you state.....show me the rules for overtaking the SC Show me where anyone from Ferrari said that the rule / penalty regarding Hamilton / Alonso was not clear. Ferrari never claimed the Hamilton rule was unclear, they just didn't think the penalty was harsh enough.

big difference.

Hamilton got the same exact penalty that MS got for breaking a safety car rule.

Ferrari gladly accepted the Monaco result, even though the FIA had to go back and re-write the rule to suit the MS penalty. None of that was needed @ Valencia: Hamilton got the same exact penalty that MS got for breaking a safety car rule.

Obviously the rule / penalty regarding Hamilton / Alonso is 100% clear, or someone would be claiming otherwise by now ;-)

so, it is ironic how Ferrari applauded the drive through for MS, then complained about the drive through for Hamilton - even though the FIA had to go and re-write the rule to justify the MS penalty.

NJB13
5th July 2010, 02:02
Show me where anyone from Ferrari said that the rule / penalty regarding Hamilton / Alonso was not clear. Ferrari never claimed the Hamilton rule was unclear, they just didn't think the penalty was harsh enough.

You should be on mastermind!
This is probably going to come as a shock to you, but, the "Safety Car" is just a little different to one of the other racing cars.


Hamilton got the same exact penalty that MS got for breaking a safety car rule.

Wrong! In at least 3 ways....
1) MS got a 20 second penalty (not a drive through) - Hamilton lost far less than 20 seconds
2) MS lost the places he gained - Hamilton got to keep what he cheated
3) MS passed another racer - McCheater passed the "Safety Car"


Ferrari gladly accepted the Monaco result, even though the FIA had to go back and re-write the rule to suit the MS penalty. None of that was needed @ Valencia: Hamilton got the same exact penalty that MS got for breaking a safety car rule.

Second time you've stated this and it's still wrong!!
1) MS got a 20 second penalty (not a drive through) - Hamilton lost far less than 20 seconds
2) MS lost the places he gained - Hamilton got to keep what he cheated
3) MS passed another racer - McCheater passed the "Safety Car"


Obviously the rule / penalty regarding Hamilton / Alonso is 100% clear, or someone would be claiming otherwise by now ;-)

I'm pretty confident that practically the whole universe has heard plenty of people "claiming otherwise"


so, it is ironic how Ferrari applauded the drive through for MS, then complained about the drive through for Hamilton - even though the FIA had to go and re-write the rule to justify the MS penalty.

Third time you've got this completely wrong!!
1) MS got a 20 second penalty (not a drive through) - Hamilton lost far less than 20 seconds
2) MS lost the places he gained - Hamilton got to keep what he cheated
3) MS passed another racer - McCheater passed the "Safety Car"

It's only a guess, but are you an aspiring politician?

Ant Raikkonen
5th July 2010, 10:46
^^ :rotfl:rotfl

xinebessa
5th July 2010, 11:57
There are a lot of very strong views being expressed on this forum and I just wanted to ask a question...

Had a member of any F1 team (or even any team in motor sport) come round the corner and found the safety car emerging from the pits alongside him would he have slowed down or would he have accelerated?

Maybe another question...

How many of you can make out the exact position of a white line when your head is about 20" off the floor?

NJB13
5th July 2010, 12:32
There are a lot of very strong views being expressed on this forum and I just wanted to ask a question...

Had a member of any F1 team (or even any team in motor sport) come round the corner and found the safety car emerging from the pits alongside him would he have slowed down or would he have accelerated?

Maybe another question...

How many of you can make out the exact position of a white line when your head is about 20" off the floor?

For starters at Valencia the drivers were notified of the safety cars deployment - so they knew it was coming.
Next the pit lane exit where the safety car emerged wasn't on a corner.
On top of that, McCheater Hamilton could see the complete rear of the safety car from where he was positioned and he'd only been past the white line about 100 times before on the weekend. And, this will come as a real shock - F1 drivers can work out distances to almost the inch on track for braking points etc - even from 20" above the ground - amazing huh!!

So given that, I'd say every F1 and racing driver in the universe - that didn't want to cheat - would have known exactly what to do from that position on the track.

Grinsomx
5th July 2010, 14:09
There are a lot of very strong views being expressed on this forum and I just wanted to ask a question...

Had a member of any F1 team (or even any team in motor sport) come round the corner and found the safety car emerging from the pits alongside him would he have slowed down or would he have accelerated?

Maybe another question...

How many of you can make out the exact position of a white line when your head is about 20" off the floor?

how about this .....team radio?
there is no excuse for what happend in vallencia, they notify the drivers when there is a plastic bag on track so i'm pretty sure they can do the same thing for the safety car.
Mccheaters and Mr. Hamster took a big risk, cheated their way past the safety car and got away with it.
some people like to say that they got a penalty in the form of a drive through, i still fail to see how a drive through can be a penalty if you dont lose whatever you gained by breaking the rules in the first place

xinebessa
5th July 2010, 14:48
I'm not asking if Hamilton knew the safety car was coming... I'm asking if a driver found themselves alongside it would they go in front or behind...

Also, they don't paint braking points on the track in white paint...

NJB13
5th July 2010, 15:01
I'm not asking if Hamilton knew the safety car was coming... I'm asking if a driver found themselves alongside it would they go in front or behind...

Also, they don't paint braking points on the track in white paint...

No white lines painted for braking points you say eh?? You really know your F1 stuff :rotfl
Wow, I wonder how on earth McLiar Hamilton can ever work out where he is in on a track - no white lines, 20" above the ground - your completely right, he's as good as blind.
Anyway Mr Troll, have a look at the picture of McLiar (beside the safety car did you say??)
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/spankyham/safetycar1.jpg
Wow, even blind Lewis, with his body completely behind the saftey car as it crosses the line, might be able to work out that this is not the right time to pass - unless of course he wanted to cheat :-)

nash929
5th July 2010, 15:06
No white lines painted for braking points you say eh?? You really know your F1 stuff :rotfl
Wow, I wonder how on earth McLiar Hamilton can ever work out where he is in on a track - no white lines, 20" above the ground - your completely right, he's as good as blind.
Anyway Mr Troll, have a look at the picture of McLiar (beside the safety car did you say??)
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/spankyham/safetycar1.jpg
Wow, even blind Lewis, with his body completely behind the saftey car as it crosses the line, might be able to work out that this is not the right time to pass - unless of course he wanted to cheat :-)

That pic should end all debates about the issue.

xinebessa
5th July 2010, 15:12
Never mind... was trying to get people to think about things differently but apparently there is a slightly blinkered view of this situation.

I'm not a racing driver (wish I was) but I know what I would have done... floor it to get past before the safety car line, I suspect that I am not the only one who would have attempted it...

nash929
5th July 2010, 15:17
I don't remember any other driver being penalised or even criticized for overtaking the safety car the past few seasons. Unless someone can point out another driver that has done so, say, the last 3 seasons.

NJB13
5th July 2010, 15:34
I don't remember any other driver being penalised or even criticized for overtaking the safety car the past few seasons. Unless someone can point out another driver that has done so, say, the last 3 seasons.

For sure Hamilton was black flagged at Imola in 2006 for passing the safety car.
I also think that Alonso got penalised 5 grid positions for doing this in a P session - not 100% sure on this one - perhaps someone can help out here.
They're the 1st 2 instances that come immediately to mind

Ferrari_Fanatic
5th July 2010, 15:36
all i say they should revise the rules

anyone overtaking the saftey car to get an advatage automatically gets a black flag (dont matter if its marginal)
when saftey car is deployed all drivers must slow down to a certain speed if not the get a 10 sec penallty
pit lane is closed when saftey car is out
saftey car must pick up the race leader! (anyone beside the race leader can overtake only when the saftey car allows it)

Ferrari_Fanatic
5th July 2010, 15:39
For sure Hamilton was black flagged at Imola in 2006 for passing the safety car.
I also think that Alonso got penalised 5 grid positions for doing this in a P session - not 100% sure on this one - perhaps someone can help out here.
They're the 1st 2 instances that come immediately to mind

i thought they don't have safety cars in practice sessions??

yep Ramilton was blagged flagged in GP2 (yeah isn't that run by the MAFIA?) if so how come one rule for GP2 and different for F1?

nash929
5th July 2010, 15:41
For sure Hamilton was black flagged at Imola in 2006 for passing the safety car.
I also think that Alonso got penalised 5 grid positions for doing this in a P session - not 100% sure on this one - perhaps someone can help out here.
They're the 1st 2 instances that come immediately to mind

Well, seems Hamy's got a way with Safety cars, eh, even in GP2:D

nash929
5th July 2010, 15:42
For sure Hamilton was black flagged at Imola in 2006 for passing the safety car.
I also think that Alonso got penalised 5 grid positions for doing this in a P session - not 100% sure on this one - perhaps someone can help out here.
They're the 1st 2 instances that come immediately to mind

Well, seems Hamy's got a way with Safety cars, eh, even in GP2:D

xinebessa
5th July 2010, 15:43
No white lines painted for braking points you say eh?? You really know your F1 stuff :rotfl


Can you point a couple out for me so I know what I'm looking for?
http://www.motorsportcircuitguide.com/circuit_image/146_Catalunya+circuit-1280x960-jun5%20Aerial.jpg
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/698448826-2722191432010.jpg
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/liuz_forc_vale_2010-21.jpg
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/schu_merc_mont_2010-21.jpg

NJB13
5th July 2010, 16:14
Can you point a couple out for me so I know what I'm looking for?
http://www.motorsportcircuitguide.com/circuit_image/146_Catalunya+circuit-1280x960-jun5%20Aerial.jpg
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/698448826-2722191432010.jpg
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/liuz_forc_vale_2010-21.jpg
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/schu_merc_mont_2010-21.jpg

Here's what I said "And, this will come as a real shock - F1 drivers can work out distances to almost the inch on track for braking points etc - even from 20" above the ground - amazing huh!!" I was pointing out that driver's don't need white lines to know where they are on tracks, they know exactly where all the important spots are on a track - even "without" white lines.
They can hit the pit lane limiter exactly every time (and yes, pit lane entry and exit is marked) - even 20" above the ground :-)
McLiar had also gone past that safety car line about 100 times that weekend already. There is not a snowflakes chance in hell that he didn't know exactly where that line was. And, also remember, he had been told that the safety car was out.
In my opinion, McCheater made the mistake because he was so intent on trying to keep Alonso behind the safety car while he intended slipping in front just before the white line - he missed it cause he was so intent on watching his mirrors and slowing down to keep Alonso behind. If you watch the video you will see him speed up to the SC then he actually slows down (in itself an illegal move that should have also been penalised) cause he realises that if he kept accelerating Alonso, and Massa would have also passed the SC before the white line.

xinebessa
5th July 2010, 16:35
No white lines painted for braking points you say eh?? You really know your F1 stuff :rotfl


I thought you said this?

MS7XWDC
5th July 2010, 16:48
You should be on mastermind!
1) MS got a 20 second penalty (not a drive through) - Hamilton lost far less than 20 seconds
2) MS lost the places he gained - Hamilton got to keep what he cheated
3) MS passed another racer - McCheater passed the "Safety Car"



and you need to learn the facts:

1. From the OFFICIAL F1 Website: "Schumacher was handed a drive-through penalty, which is converted after the race into a 20-second time penalty, dropping him from sixth to 12th in the results"
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/5/10799.html
2. Hamilton got penalised and lost the track potion that the FIA F1 deemed appropriate - Hamilton followed exactly what the FIA / F1 said was fair.
3. They both broke rules that apply regarding the SC = they both broke safety car rules.

Greig
5th July 2010, 17:25
Did MS get a 20 second time penalty, yes or no?

Again you seem to suggest all penalties are the same under SC, so can you once again show me the rules regarding a driver overtaking another driver under SC conditions, and the rule for a driver overtaking the actual SC itself.

You really do like to twist and turn though :-)

MS7XWDC
5th July 2010, 17:34
Did MS get a 20 second time penalty, yes or no?

From the OFFICIAL F1 Website: "Schumacher was handed a drive-through penalty"

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/5/10799.html


Again you seem to suggest all penalties are the same under SC

then let me make it clear for you:

Hamilton got the same exact penalty that MS got for breaking a safety car rule.

Ferrari gladly accepted the Monaco result, even though the FIA had to go back and re-write the rule to suit the MS penalty.

it is ironic how Ferrari applauded the drive through for MS, then complained about the drive through for Hamilton.

nash929
5th July 2010, 17:44
Is there any 'fixed' penalty regarding overtaking the SC? or is it just the Race Marshall's call?

If it just the race marshall's call, then it will always be subject to criticism, whilst if there is a fixed, concrete penalty, no other debates will follow.

xinebessa
5th July 2010, 18:10
Is there any 'fixed' penalty regarding overtaking the SC? or is it just the Race Marshall's call?

If it just the race marshall's call, then it will always be subject to criticism, whilst if there is a fixed, concrete penalty, no other debates will follow.

It's not spelt out under the safety car section of the rules but basically there are three fixed penalties and then if you don't obey them you can be excluded. Obviously the race directors discression can increase the penalty.

Grinsomx
5th July 2010, 18:16
Is there any 'fixed' penalty regarding overtaking the SC? or is it just the Race Marshall's call?

If it just the race marshall's call, then it will always be subject to criticism, whilst if there is a fixed, concrete penalty, no other debates will follow.

problem is...in F1 there rarely is a thing like a fixed penalty, wich probably is the big point behind this whole mess. 1 driver does this and gets a ridiculous penalty while others get away with murder

Grinsomx
5th July 2010, 18:29
I'm not asking if Hamilton knew the safety car was coming... I'm asking if a driver found themselves alongside it would they go in front or behind...

Also, they don't paint braking points on the track in white paint...

no offence, but doesnt that question answer itself?
the driver would off course go for it, but then the question changes...what is the point of even having a SC if drivers can have a go at it if they are lucky enough to end up close enough when the sc is released?
how fair is it that when you let 1 car cheat is way through, because he did break the rules and then hold up the one behind him...because he was following the rules?
the whole thing about would you, would he, what if and what not is kinda pointless. we all know any driver will grab the opportunity if they can get away with it...but should they be able to get away with it ?

i hope that makes sense, i'm tired,hot and a bit drunk so forgive me it doesnt

Rob
5th July 2010, 18:34
From the OFFICIAL F1 Website: "Schumacher was handed a drive-through penalty"

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/5/10799.html



then let me make it clear for you:

Hamilton got the same exact penalty that MS got for breaking a safety car rule.

Ferrari gladly accepted the Monaco result, even though the FIA had to go back and re-write the rule to suit the MS penalty.

it is ironic how Ferrari applauded the drive through for MS, then complained about the drive through for Hamilton.

Alonso got drive thru for jump starting at China, now that isnt fair. Due to fact that isnt under SC rules. MS penalty was ok, due fact that he overtook Alonso. Lewis overtook THE SAFETY CAR.All drivers get light flash up on dash when SC is being deployed. Lewis was coming past the pits. He new SC would be coming onto track. But he didnt slow right down, he hesitated then went for it. Sorry to me that is a far more serious than what Ms or Alonso has done. Thats what the problem is, Lewis got away very lightly. He didnt loose time or track position, what a penalty is applied to do. PUNISH.

xinebessa
5th July 2010, 19:01
no offence, but doesnt that question answer itself?
the driver would off course go for it, but then the question changes...what is the point of even having a SC if drivers can have a go at it if they are lucky enough to end up close enough when the sc is released?
how fair is it that when you let 1 car cheat is way through, because he did break the rules and then hold up the one behind him...because he was following the rules?
the whole thing about would you, would he, what if and what not is kinda pointless. we all know any driver will grab the opportunity if they can get away with it...but should they be able to get away with it ?

i hope that makes sense, i'm tired,hot and a bit drunk so forgive me it doesnt

Makes sense... and it is a good point, overtaking a safety car and overtaking during a safety car should both have serious consequences, minimum stop and go, written in the rules.

I'm glad you agree that any driver would attempt it. :-D

Tifosi
5th July 2010, 21:35
From the OFFICIAL F1 Website: "Schumacher was handed a drive-through penalty"

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/5/10799.html



then let me make it clear for you:

Hamilton got the same exact penalty that MS got for breaking a safety car rule.

Ferrari gladly accepted the Monaco result, even though the FIA had to go back and re-write the rule to suit the MS penalty.

it is ironic how Ferrari applauded the drive through for MS, then complained about the drive through for Hamilton.


Yet again, this is not an example of Irony*.

Let me make it clear for you: ;-)

If you were comparing Ferrari's conflicting opinion on two identical situations, you may get away with "hypocritical", but it's not even that because they aren't!!!!!

I know you're only here to argue the semantics of F1 rulings with Ferrari fans but what's the point? Defense of unjust actions against Schumacher? So what?

Overtaking the safety car and overtaking a car under the safety car are different situations. Bleat on about how you think they should be treated the same if you want to but dont pretend that they are the same thing.

* Example of Irony: Michael Schumacher swaps Nico Rosberg's No. 3 to his car because Number 4 has never won a World Championship and then proceeds to bag less than half as many points as him during the first half of the season.

Now, that is Irony..... ;-)

MS7XWDC
6th July 2010, 00:26
Thats what the problem is, Lewis got away very lightly. He didnt loose time or track position, what a penalty is applied to do.

he most certainly did lose both time and track position by driving through the pit lane at a limited speed. if you can't understand that, i cannot help you.
apparently the FIA / F1 don't agree with you: they applied what they deemed an appropriate penalty. you are entitled to your opinion, but obviously the FIA don't agree with you.

MS7XWDC
6th July 2010, 00:33
Yet again, this is not an example of Irony*
If you were comparing Ferrari's conflicting opinion on two identical situations, you may get away with "hypocritical", but it's not even that because they aren't!!!!!


drive through penalties to other drivers who violated a rule that applied to the Safety Car is exactly what happened at both Monaco & Valencia.

i·ron·ic
1. containing or exemplifying irony: an ironic novel; an ironic remark.
2. ironical.
3. coincidental; unexpected

nope, ironic is 100% correct:

it is coincidental / unexpected that Ferrari applauded a drive through @ Monaco, then complained about a drive through @ Valencia.

if you want to also say Ferrari are hypocritical, you can, I won't argue against you.

Ferrari_Fanatic
6th July 2010, 00:50
u a schumacher fan? you do know he's in merc now?? lol

NJB13
6th July 2010, 01:08
Originally Posted by NJB13 View Post
No white lines painted for braking points you say eh?? You really know your F1 stuff :rotfl

I thought you said this?

Yes, I did point out that you had indeed stated the obvious, the bit about you really knowing your F1 stuff was somewhat facetious :-)

Greig
6th July 2010, 06:59
drive through penalties to other drivers who violated a rule that applied to the Safety Car is exactly what happened at both Monaco & Valencia.

i·ron·ic
1. containing or exemplifying irony: an ironic novel; an ironic remark.
2. ironical.
[B]3. coincidental; unexpected[/B

nope, ironic is 100% correct:

it is coincidental / unexpected that Ferrari applauded a drive through @ Monaco, then complained about a drive through @ Valencia.

if you want to also say Ferrari are hypocritical, you can, I won't argue against you.

You really are quite strange, how on earth was it unexpected Ferrari to agree with what they believed was the rule? you are just making that up, as you do with most of your posts

Tifosi
6th July 2010, 08:38
drive through penalties to other drivers who violated a rule that applied to the Safety Car is exactly what happened at both Monaco & Valencia.

i·ron·ic
1. containing or exemplifying irony: an ironic novel; an ironic remark.
2. ironical.
3. coincidental; unexpected

nope, ironic is 100% correct:

it is coincidental / unexpected that Ferrari applauded a drive through @ Monaco, then complained about a drive through @ Valencia.

if you want to also say Ferrari are hypocritical, you can, I won't argue against you.

:lol

You don't understand Irony.

Your definition of it is as twisty as your reasoning throughout these threads. If anything that was an unexpected coincidence was Ironic then it would be highly ironic if I turned up at the supermarket at the exact same time as my mother, who lives 60 miles away. That's not Irony, it's an unexpected coincidence :roll. You should read up on irony and try to understand what it is before twisting a couple of unrelated words as proof of something. I gave you an example for heaven's sake.

You also don't read what people write or address the points they make.

Greig
6th July 2010, 15:52
Anyone else really bored of this troll now?

It's still not ironic, Monaco has nothing at all to do with Lewis at Valencia, nothing at all.

MS7XWDC
6th July 2010, 15:53
:lol

You don't understand Irony.

Your definition of it....

it's not 'my definition':

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ironic


You really are quite strange, how on earth was it unexpected Ferrari to agree with what they believed was the rule? you are just making that up, as you do with most of your posts


there is no doubt Ferrari was pleased with the Monaco drive through [because they interpreted the rule a certain way, even though the rule had to be re-written to suit the MS penalty] and Ferrari were not pleased with the Hamilton drive through [because they thought it was not severe enough].

nobody is making that up, Ferrari publicly said as much in each case.

it certainly was coincidental how 2 drive throughs get different reactions @ Ferrari, even though a rule needed to be re-written to suit the penalty that benefited them.

the 'unexpected' part is that they said 'the rules are the rules' @ Monaco [even though they had to be re-written to suit the penalty], then said 'the rules are not fair' @ Valencia, and did not say 'the rules are the rules'.

it was very ironic / unexpected / coincidental how Ferrari changed from 'the rules are the rules' to 'the rules are not fair'

Hermann
6th July 2010, 16:06
Anyone else really bored of this troll now?

It's still not ironic, Monaco has nothing at all to do with Lewis at Valencia, nothing at all.

Actually yes, quite, though it was entertaining for a while. Do we really have to keep him?

Tifosi
6th July 2010, 17:47
it's not 'my definition':

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ironic

It's the vaguest one you could find though and as usual you simply ignore all points made in respect of it - which speaks volumes.



there is no doubt Ferrari was pleased with the Monaco drive through and Ferrari were not pleased with the Hamilton drive through [because they thought it was not severe enough].

nobody is making that up, Ferrari publicly said as much in each case.

[B]it certainly was coincidental how 2 drive throughs get different reactions @ Ferrari, even though a rule needed to be re-written to suit the penalty that benefited them.

the 'unexpected' part is that they said 'the rules are the rules' @ Monaco [even though they had to be re-written to suit the penalty], then said 'the rules are not fair' @ Valencia, and did not say 'the rules are the rules'.

it was very ironic / unexpected / coincidental how Ferrari changed from 'the rules are the rules' to 'the rules are not fairI love the way you do that troll like thing where you have selective hearing, you repeat the same stuff over and over again - regardless of what multiple people say to you, and you don't listen or respond to points made that require defending - just spout stuff to annoy that proves nothing and doesnt further a debate.

Not only do you fail to understand the term "Irony", but you don't understand what is meant by the word "coincidental" either.


coincidence is the occurrence of events that happen at the same time by accident yet seem to have some connection. Coincidence plays a part in Irony but not in the way that you extract it and misuse its definition.

The only thing that's Ironic in your posts is that you say something is ironic when it's not. The Irony of that is not lost on me but it clearly sails over your head like most everything else that other people say that doesn't fit your idea of reality!


10/10 for cockiness but 0/10 for listening.

REDARMYSOJA
6th July 2010, 18:04
Anyone else really bored of this troll now?



Have been for a while now.

Suzie
6th July 2010, 19:21
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc
:lou


:-D

Rob
6th July 2010, 20:31
he most certainly did lose both time and track position by driving through the pit lane at a limited speed. if you can't understand that, i cannot help you.
apparently the FIA / F1 don't agree with you: they applied what they deemed an appropriate penalty. you are entitled to your opinion, but obviously the FIA don't agree with you.

:roll :louno he didnt loose anything mate, if anything, the time FIA tokk to apply punishment he gained more time so he wouldnt loose to much time or track position (if had prober punishment i.e stop go, would of finished 8-9, that to me and EVERYONE else is fair punishment for the crime) Lewis overtook the SC MS overtoook under SC conditions. To me overtaking the SC if far more serious than MS overtaking anyother car.

All FIA lunishments need to be looked at and rewritten. What do you want to next time ?drivers overtaking SC blasting round the track to the pits, endangering marshalls, spectators and er... oh yeah themselves? FIA has to sort and make all punishments out. LEWIS GOT AWAY VERY VERY LIGHTLY for CHEATING!!! :-!

Tifosi
6th July 2010, 21:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc
:lou

:-D

Alanis didn't understand Irony either! (unless she was being Ironic with the song title of course!) :-)

Suzie
6th July 2010, 21:15
You're wrong.
It's like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife.

Tifosi
6th July 2010, 21:22
That's what happens when you go ill-equipped to a spoon factory armed only with a pork-pie for lunch. 10,000 yogurts would make it good planning. Them having no spare spoons would have course, made it ironic ;-)

Coincidentally (not), the plane crash was ironic!!!! (or was it?) :-D

nash929
6th July 2010, 21:33
That's what happens when you go ill-equipped to a spoon factory armed only with a pork-pie for lunch. 10,000 yogurts would make it good planning. Them having no spare spoons would have course, made it ironic ;-)

Coincidentally (not), the plane crash was ironic!!!! (or was it?) :-D

Don't you think? :D

Sorry, can't help it :)

Tifosi
6th July 2010, 21:40
Don't you think? :D

Sorry, can't help it :)

This makes the plane crash ironic :-D

Mr. Play-it-Safe was afraid to fly. He packed his suitcase and kissed his kids goodbye. He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down, he thought, Well isn't this nice... now I'll never make it to the National Association of Aviophobics conference in Reno, NV.

REDARMYSOJA
6th July 2010, 23:57
This makes the plane crash ironic :-D

Mr. Play-it-Safe was afraid to fly. He packed his suitcase and kissed his kids goodbye. He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down, he thought, Well isn't this nice... now I'll never make it to the National Association of Aviophobics conference in Reno, NV.

That's not irony. That's fate. :lol