Alonso's Penalty

[Hamish]

I am sure all of you are just as fuming as I am. I cannot imagine how Alonso and the Ferrari Team are feeling.

It is a shame that things in F1 are not consistent for sure. I do feel that the penalty was totally unfair especially as Kubica had already retired when Alonso was made to serve it. Totally ruined a good race.

I don't know how Alonso didn't just pull into the pits and retire at that point. It seems no matter what Ferrari does the stewards and FIA are against them. What would F1 be like if Ferrari said "enough is enough, we are leaving".

[Agron]

Indeed, I was so angry I wished the team would have asked to just park the car in the side of the track to give RC the middle finger. But they are professionals and have good heads on their shoulders so they kept fighting. Priceless the interview Alonso gave to the spanish press, classy, PR correct. If you are going to f*ck us you won't even be able to portray us as the whiny, bad guys; of course, behind closed doors -as it should be- there's going to be pressure for heads to start rolling, I hope.

[Tifosi]

We should have given the place back. Moaning about it is really just sour grapes. We knew it could be given as a penalty and it was.

Ferrari gambled and got it wrong.

Has happened before to others and will happen again. It was avoidable. :-??

[Diablo]

Alonso jumped the chicane and gained a place. It did deserve a penalty. Only thing is again the inordinate delay the stewards took was ridiculous. Alonso brought this on himself. :doh

[Hamish]

Can you give me the link to the interview please.

[delsando]

This really tested out Fernando temper, im glad he remained calm and accepted the penalty. He'll use this as a motivation in the upcoming races.

Hopefully Spanish FIFA Win will cheer him up!

[Alonsomaniac]

DISGRACE, that is all I can say.
Even David Coulthard is completely on Alonso's side in this.
As DC asked, what do we want? Do we want drivers to stop overtaking in fear of getting these kind of penalties??

If Alonso had stopped, I would have understood his reaction. I can´t imagine how he must have felt after this SECOND injustice.

[shostak]

Marc Gené said Alonso didnt be able to avoid cutting chicane when Kubica hasnt left any space to Alonso. It was collision or cutting chicane. One more from maFIA. I wont watch F1 this year. I dont want to watch a fraud.

[Agron]

Kubica left him no room when he was slightly ahead or at least wheel to wheel, he didn't gain nothing that wasn't already his, at most they could have asked him to give a position back. Not delay the decision until they can throw in a safety car for the SC&DT combo of doom :lol

[Tifosi]

Remember Spa a couple of years ago? Did we moan about Lewis getting his retrospective demotion? :roll

[Red_Diamond]

Remember Spa a couple of years ago? Did we moan about Lewis getting his retrospective demotion? :roll

Well, I don't see Ferrari or Ferrari fans moaning about today's penalty. ;-)

[Tifosi]

Well, I don't see Ferrari or Ferrari fans moaning about today's penalty. ;-)

heheh. true enough, although Luca Colajanni suggested that Ferrari were pretty annoyed.

[Agron]

Can you give me the link to the interview please.http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85214

[shostak]

Alonso received today 2 penalties in one: Drive Through + Safety Car. And Charlie 'waited' until the two were joined. :lol:lol:lol

[Kingdom Hearts]

To some degree I think everyone is right, the ones that think that Alonso cut the chicane and gain advantage and the ones that think that Alonso couldn't do anything differently. Is really hard to judge.

I don't agree with the penalty, it was too harsh and the SC made it worse but the problem is not the penalty or the stewards, the problem is on the start...again.

[Hornet]

Fair enough if they want to bring up the cutting chicane thing

But Alonso was forced off track. He was forced into going across the inside of that turn. Shouldn't that be taken into consideration?

If not, fine. Penalize Kuby as well for forcing a driver off the track.

[Alonsomaniac]

To some degree I think everyone is right, the ones that think that Alonso cut the chicane and gain advantage and the ones that think that Alonso couldn't do anything differently. Is really hard to judge.

I don't agree with the penalty, it was too harsh and the SC made it worse but the problem is not the penalty or the stewards, the problem is on the start...again.

You mean if the start had been okay he would not have been where he was now.....okay, that is correct. The start was bad, the car had massive wheelspin, even in second gear. I have no idea what caused that but it shlould not have happened.
The penalty, as even DC said, was bull.
And the effect was that he did not have to give a place back to Kubica, who was not there anymore, but to everybody else. That is no penalty, that is screwing someones race.

They could have just as well blackflagged Fernando.

[Tifosi]

It is ridiculous to say that we were wronged. As soon as we saw the overtake we all knew he could be penalised and he was. It was avoidable if we'd given the place back.

That is our own issue, regardless of where you personally think the sun shines out of!

[ferrari4life]

while if u want to consider all things fair then the penalty was fair...but the FIAs new approch as of the last race when it comes to handing out penalties that justify the end result compared to the breach in rules it was total bogus. (of course its fair to modify rules to make the punishment fit the crime when it comes to cars other than ferrari )

[Tifosi]

The issue is that you just can't trust the stewards to make timely or consistant decisions.

Best not to rely on them when you have a choice really :-??

[XXX132]

It is ridiculous to say that we were wronged. As soon as we saw the overtake we all knew he could be penalised and he was.

From where I was RK forced him off the track when he was already ahead.

Given that his race was over at that point, it was a shame FA didn't overtake the SC when it came out, then served a drive through. That would've been interesting...

As it was we were shafted into last place.:furious

Somebody will be finding horses heads in their beds soon.:twisted

[stringer987]

Am i right in saying during the race it said it would be investigated after the race?

[gabobito]

What actually made the penalty worse was the SC. I think it was just tough luck that the SC was deployed when Alonso was handed the penalty. Who could have thought that as Alonso was given a drive thru penalty, parts of dela rosa's car would disintegrate and lay on the track?

[NJB13]

It is ridiculous to say that we were wronged. As soon as we saw the overtake we all knew he could be penalised and he was. It was avoidable if we'd given the place back.

That is our own issue, regardless of where you personally think the sun shines out of!

I think the most salient point is he didn't overtake - as the replay clearly shows, he was either in front or, at worst, level when he went off.

[FerrariF60]

We should have given the place back. Moaning about it is really just sour grapes. We knew it could be given as a penalty and it was.

Ferrari gambled and got it wrong.

Has happened before to others and will happen again. It was avoidable. :-??

i hate to say it, but WE GOT PENILIZED FARE AND SQUARE; nando should have given the position back given that he clearly too advantage by cutting accross

[Tifosi]

I think the most salient point is he didn't overtake - as the replay clearly shows, he was either in front or, at worst, level when he went off.

but regardless he had to go off track to maintain the position and that's not allowed. Don't get me wrong, I think it was a late and harsh decision. My issue is that we knew it was a risk and we could have avoided it.

We CLEARLY can't rely on the stewards to let us know if we SHOULD have given the place back in a timely manner and I can't seriously believe that Ferrari ever believed that either. It's never worked that way to my knowledge. After the farce of Spa 2008, we've known how Stewards can review past incidents and there's no way to guarantee that we'd ever be allowed to give the place back.

We gambled. We lost

[NJB13]

i hate to say it, but WE GOT PENILIZED FARE AND SQUARE; nando should have given the position back given that he clearly too advantage by cutting accross

Fernando was in front, or at least level when he was forced off - he did not gain a position by going off line. In my opinion, Fernando should have no penalty.

[Hornet]

I think the most salient point is he didn't overtake - as the replay clearly shows, he was either in front or, at worst, level when he went off.

QFMFT
It appears that Alonso has already overtook Kuby before going into that corner and rightfully have the line.
Kuby forced him off when he should have left enough space

Did anyone see it as Kuby trying to gain back his place by forcing Alonso off rather than Alonso going off and gain a place?

[Stormsearcher]

Forget Istanbul. This is our worst GP so far. And for once, i think the blame is fully on our drivers. Alonso should have given the place back.. it was taking too much of a risk especially coming in the wake of a race where he blamed the stewarts for not handing out penalties. What was he thinking?
He fought very hard though, and thats the spirit we want.
Massa just didnt get to grips with the car atall. Kept going backwards. Todays race was a disgrace! The only way back is consecutive victories. Otherwise we can kiss this year good bye.

[epiclyaddicted]

Ok, a couple of points from me.

First, the message from Race Control was "drive-through penalty for car number 8 for cutting the chicane and gaining an advantage". Kubica and Alonso went into that chicane side by side, Alonso tried to turn in for the chicane but Kubica pushed him off the track, so Alonso had no other choice but to do what he did. He didn't just straight line the chicane as a premeditated move, he was forced off the track. Then, Kubica retired a couple of laps later, so even without that overtaking move, Alonso would have taken that position anyway. So what advantage did he gain then?

Second, what a coincidence that our dear Mr. Charlie Whiting had to start investigating that incident couple of laps AFTER Kubica had retired, and announce the drive-through JUST as the Safety Car was deployed, meaning an effective black flag (race over) for Alonso. Kubica himself said on the BBC straight after his retirement, that he was told Alonso would yield the place back but that it didn't matter now anyway since he had to retire. So effectively, Alonso got penalised for nothing.

Going back to Valencia, Hamilton gained a monumental advantage by overtaking the Safety Car, and that could have potentially been a big safety hazard. With the safety in mind, Hamilton should have been black flagged in that race, but he only got a drive-through and only after he had built up a huge gap. So effectively, he got away with what was a serious offence.

So just looking at the level of penalties, the FIA is basically saying that cutting a chicane and gaining ONE place in track position is exactly the same level of offence as overtaking the Safety Car? Ok, that's brilliant! Thanks for clearing that up Mr. Whiting. I'll really keep that in mind next time I hear/read/see anything about the FIA's Make Roads Safe campaign.

[Stormsearcher]

I think it was that brit Nigel mansell who gave the penalty! :furious

[hilly]

QFMFT
It appears that Alonso has already overtook Kuby before going into that corner and rightfully have the line.
Kuby forced him off when he should have left enough space

Did anyone see it as Kuby trying to gain back his place by forcing Alonso off rather than Alonso going off and gain a place?

Nope....

If 2 cars go into a chicane side by side then one will be in front of the other depending on which side the curve is as the cars go through it, so from the limited camera angles it is very difficult to say who was in front when.

Alonso maintained/gained the place by going off the track, hence an unfair advantage was obtained.
It has happened many times before and resulted in a similar penalty, a classic example is Spa 2008, both went in together, Hamiltion cut the corner and gained track position and hence was given a penalty. Ferrari surely knew this would happen and Alsonso should have/been told to yielded the place back and then to have a go again, as it turns out he would have got it back by default as Kubica retired shortly after the incident.

As for cancelling out the penalty because Kubica retired, Ferrari didn't know Kubica would retire at the time of the incident so can't say they didn't yield then as there was now no place to give back.
If Kubica had stayed running he may have lost more positions before Ferrari were told by race control to yield and then it could have been a right mess trying to managed that situation on track, so a drive through penalty is easier to apply.

Once again the timing/luck stinks, but the rule book is just applied and sometimes a team will loose out. Ferrari seem to be very unlucky the last couple of races.

[Tommy_F]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5xH5CRkllo

Alt. links in case FOM decides to take it off...

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=EJ7LUP5T
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/144654/Alonso_Kubica_Silverstone_2010.flv

[MS7XWDC]

it looks like FA could have taken the drive through right before the SC came out, i believe .... looks like he passed the pit entrance [right after you saw SD shaking his head over the penalty]

i don't think SD informed him right away .... as he said the penalty had to be served after the SC .... looks like there was time beteen the penalty being shown on screen [which was before SC] and when SD told FA [after the SC came out]

[Tifosi]

He passed him off the track. As clear as day. We should have given it back. We didn't. We lost out.

[NJB13]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5xH5CRkllo

Exactly as I said, Fernando had gained the front position already, he "did not" gain any advantage because he was already in front when he went off the track. So, based on this decision, every car that goes off track has to move over and let the car behind pass????

[epiclyaddicted]

Thanks for posting that vid Tommy_F. Looking at Alonso's onboard footage, he was slightly ahead of Kubica going into the chicane. Then just after the apex of the first part of the chicane, Kubica clearly comes back at him and thus forcing him off the track. If Kubica held his line, both of them would have gone through that corner side by side, and Alonso probably would have come out in front because he was on the inside at the exit of the chicane.

But as David Coulthard said on the BBC, it was essentially a racing incident, and if Kubica had remained in the race and Alonso hadn't yielded, then you could justify a drive-through. But the way it ended up was foolish and pointless to say the least, and a disgusting right old mess by the FIA.

[Tifosi]

Exactly as I said, Fernando had gained the front position already, he "did not" gain any advantage because he was already in front when he went off the track. So, based on this decision, every car that goes off track has to move over and let the car behind pass????

mate, it's illegal to go off the track when you are racing. If you have to do it to maintain an advantage, it's not allowable. Thems the rules.

[xpman]

I think Alonso should just given the place back and just stick car get a nice big phat tow and taken him next bit straight as was clear Kuby had problems . As for the FIA they where out of order they way delt with it .

[steelstallions]

Alonso could not avoid him without cutting the chicane, knowing how anal FIA are about cutting the chicane Alonso should have been told immediately to give up the place before the next corner (the rule that was dished out to Lewis against Kimi).
I was shouting at the TV for those idiots to tell Alonso to give up the place at it was so damn obvious the stewards would rub their hands in glee at getting one on the team.
I don't blame Alonso, I would have kept the place until told otherwise, the team should know the rules and it cost us, imagine Alonso in that position after the safety car, even if Kubica didn't break down Alonso would have overtook him.
Poor decision making by Ferrari again!!!

[vcs316]

Alonso should have given the position back and the team also should have told him to do so. As Stu said, we gambled & we lost...

[NJB13]

mate, it's illegal to go off the track when you are racing. If you have to do it to maintain an advantage, it's not allowable. Thems the rules.

:-)
Mate, I don't see it that way. Going off track is not illegal, if it was, then Vettel should have gotten DT penalty at the start, as well as every other driver that goes "off track". It's illegal to go off track to gain a position. But, Alonso was in front when he went off. Actually, if you watch to on-board, he was in front and then forced/pushed off when Kubica just turned into him.

Twice we disagreed today, and, twice things have panned out as you thought :-(
I just don't agree that Alonso or our team decision was wrong to keep the place we had already gained. Still, results back you not me.

[aroutis]

He should've not given the stewards the chance to punish him. It is THAT simple, this is SILVERSTONE, he should've known that they would have no hesitation to do what they did (and they did).

It's not about if the penalty is fair or not, it's about the fact he (we) gave them the knife and they used it on us.

[Alonsomaniac]

Alonso said that the team reacted okay, but when he finally got the order to give the place back he had already passed another car and Kubica was already slowing down.

[Agron]

Alonso should have given the position back and the team also should have told him to do so. As Stu said, we gambled & we lost...To be fair, had we not gambled, people would be asking for blood at our lack of aggressiveness and willingness to stretch the rules to the limit, after seeing Hamilton get away with everything he has tried so far.

[MASSUM THE GREATEST]

I screamed it at the T.V when it happened.

"GIVE THE PLACE BACK"

When in doubt, give the place back. It's pretty simple really. He was gonna pass kub anyway (regardless of his failure).

[Tifosi]

:-)
Mate, I don't see it that way. Going off track is not illegal, if it was, then Vettel should have gotten DT penalty at the start, as well as every other driver that goes "off track". It's illegal to go off track to gain a position. But, Alonso was in front when he went off. Actually, if you watch to on-board, he was in front and then forced/pushed off when Kubica just turned into him.

Twice we disagreed today, and, twice things have panned out as you thought :-(
I just don't agree that Alonso or our team decision was wrong to keep the place we had already gained. Still, results back you not me.

It's only illegal to use off the track areas to take or maintain a position dude. Rightly or wrongly - but unfortunately - we did that. We had to go off track to maintain the position :-s. My main point is not that we tried it but more that we took a pretty unacceptable risk in not giving the place back, given the vaguaries of the stewards.

I'm only basing my argument on historical precedence. Mind you, as ever, it's easier to be wise after the event. :-??

[straycat]

i was hoping that the team would bring the cars in and save the engines...it seems that anything that can go wrong is happening. we need to re-group and somehow try to match the speed of the red bulls...however, since our race was pretty much doomed, i was happy to see webber win because it seems he was treated a bit bad by his team. we have to keep moving ahead and not waste time and energy brooding over the ruling by whiting because we can not change things at this point (can we?). better days are ahead.

[Brakefade]

Hamilton passes the SAFETY car and nothing happens essentially. We did a QUESTIONABLE pass on another car, and we loose all points and Charlie releases the SC almost immediately after giving us this penalty, knowing full well the field would bunch up and completely taking out any chance of scoring even one point. Good job again FIA! ;-)

[muzzyveli123]

The FIA have made a total hash of this, Once Kubica retired they should have come up with a different penalty, IMO it should have been a 5 secound penalty added on at the end of the race.. that would been fine, i mean its probz the kindve time Alonso would have lost giving the place back to Kubica. FIA were harsh.. another thing which annoyed me was the amount of time it took them to deploy the safety car out for the debrey on the track, the whole thing was a joke..

[Tommy_F]

It's only illegal to use off the track areas to take or maintain a position dude. Rightly or wrongly - but unfortunately - we did that. We had to go off track to maintain the position :-s. My main point is not that we tried it but more that we took a pretty unacceptable risk in not giving the place back, given the vaguaries of the stewards.

I'm only basing my argument on historical precedence. Mind you, as ever, it's easier to be wise after the event. :-??

Kimi '09, he went off track and gained/maintained lots of positions. The stewards didn't penalize him. This just shows how inconsistent the steward decisions are. Spa '08 with Hamilton, he gave the place back but was penalized anyway. No consistency at all...

[MS7XWDC]

Hamilton passes the SAFETY car and nothing happens essentially. We did a QUESTIONABLE pass on another car, and we loose all points

didn't Ferrari say they wanted harsher penalties, that actually penalize drivers who would otherwise get off 'lightly' ?

they said this last week. it hurt them this week, but the FIA did exactly what Ferrari suggested after Valencia.

[dbristol91]

mark my words: Hamilton will win this year! I hate em, but it's true! Alonso ed up again! him! What kind of start that was? I think Alonso is not the driver he used to be...this season is over for Ferrari. That sucks!

[zeddy]

Marc Gené said Alonso didnt be able to avoid cutting chicane when Kubica hasnt left any space to Alonso. It was collision or cutting chicane. One more from maFIA. I wont watch F1 this year. I dont want to watch a fraud.

Very well said. I Will not watch it either. It's totally disgusting. It's shamefull what they're trying to do to Ferrari

[racingbradley]

It's shameful it's true but what happens next???? LCM will not be a happy bunny to-morrow. Maybe next year we will be the favoured team of Pirelli.

[epiclyaddicted]

Kimi '09, he went off track and gained/maintained lots of positions. The stewards didn't penalize him. This just shows how inconsistent the steward decisions are. Spa '08 with Hamilton, he gave the place back but was penalized anyway. No consistency at all...

That's exactly what I was thinking of! Kimi at Spa '09, on the first lap, intentionally ran well wide (it was La Source hairpin I think?) to gain a good advantage. But looking at Spa '08 with Hamilton, even if Alonso would have given the place back to Kubica straight away today and then overtake later on, who can guarantee that he still would not have been given a drive-through anyway? This is the FIA we are talking about!

[MS7XWDC]

But looking at Spa '08 with Hamilton, even if Alonso would have given the place back to Kubica straight away today and then overtake later on, who can guarantee that he still would not have been given a drive-through anyway?

Hamilton re-passed before 2 corners by using the slipstream that he acquired by cutting & being closer.
had Hamilton backed off, and waited 2 corners, he'd not have gotten penalised.

he got penalised by keeping the [slipstream] advantage he gained by cutting & re-passing before 2 corners had passed.

so, no, had FA given the spot back [given back the advantage gained by cutting - position, not slipstream - he already was on RK's tail] and passed RK later, he would have been OK.

[F2007]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJXQXYapdxA

If you look at Alonsos inside cam, and this vid. The whole truth is out. I think he cut it. Ofcourse it was the only thing he could do, but it doesnt change the fact.

[straycat]

personally, i watch a great deal of motor sports. i am beginning to find that f1 is very disorganized and no one at the track seems to be in control. ok, granted, we overtook in an illeagle manner according to the rules but why does it take forever to apply the penalty? when the penalty arrived, fernando had already overtaken another car and kubica was in the pit. i am not saying that we did not deserve the penalty nor am i stating that we did, i am just wondering why in a sport that considers itself to be the pinnacle of racing we have such a crazy way to enforce penalties... if not for Ferrari i wouldnt waste time following the sport as there are many other motor sports that are very good and probably more exciting. lets hope that we somehow salvage the season, overcome the bias spewed from the brit media and remember that we have more WCC's than the other teams.

[Tifosi]

It's shameful it's true but what happens next???? LCM will not be a happy bunny to-morrow. Maybe next year we will be the favoured team of Pirelli.

I think LDM will be holding an "emergency meeting" after this week-end. Wouldn't be surprised to hear he stoved in another Plasma after today's performance tbh.

[Silent Bob]

Well.. it was a move that deserved a penalty.. but they set a precedent with Hamilton in Valencia.. why didn't they give Alonso 20 laps or so to move up the field and then take his drive thru? Or just give him a 5 sec penalty after the race... or heck, even make up another completely new penalty that isn't in the rule book.

[ipswich1992]

just to go back to spa 08 for a second, as a lot of people are at the moment

that case in my eyes bares no resemblance to what happened today,

i have just been watching the 2008 season review and the live coverage of that race

and the problem was that hamilton didnt actually give the place back to kimi at all if you listen to the engine note he was flat all the way from being pushed off down to la source

showing that kimi simply had a better run down to the corner

lewis didnt actually give the place back , just the laws of physics meant that kimi had more speed of the chicane and was slightly quicker naturally

there was no let off on the throttle from hamiltons car.

so the whole 'he LET him passed' is rubbish i think he just got overtaken by kimi because of momentum .


but anyways thats an old subject that doesnt really need to be brought up

i think ferrari were fully ready to release 4th back to robert on the lap the fia said so

but as it happens robert never caught fernando back up because his car expired

so why alonso wasnt just docked 5 secs or something normal for this is beyond belief

he effectively lost about 40-50 seconds clawing back from 16th - 14th place



i do not blame nigel for this at all

it is in my opinion the fia's fault for not giving FAIR penalties

i hate michael now he has left but even i agree 20 seconds pen for a maneuvre that gained him 2s at best was a little harsh

the penalties in future need to be fairier, more relevant, and most importantly delivered less than 30 laps + into the race after the incident (valencia e.g.)

i do agree alonso cut the track and yes should have IMMEDIATELY given the place back

but as i said being demoted to 14th from 4th for a maneuvre that gained him 5s seconds maximum is stupid

i would be saying this even if schumi/hamilton/button had done the same.

[MS7XWDC]

Well.. it was a move that deserved a penalty.. but they set a precedent with Hamilton in Valencia.. why didn't they give Alonso 20 laps or so to move up the field and then take his drive thru? .

maybe because Ferrari requested faster decisions after Valencia.

Or just give him a 5 sec penalty after the race... or heck, even make up another completely new penalty that isn't in the rule book.

maybe because Ferrari requested penalties that were more harsh if a driver would for some reason 'get off lightly' [Kubica retiring]

[Silent Bob]

maybe because Ferrari requested faster decisions after Valencia.


maybe because Ferrari requested penalties that were more harsh if a driver would for some reason 'get off lightly' [Kubica retiring]




Ok, settle then for 18 laps.

Well Hamilton lost no places so maybe we could settle for Alonso losing 1?

[flam147]

It is ridiculous to say that we were wronged. As soon as we saw the overtake we all knew he could be penalised and he was. It was avoidable if we'd given the place back.

That is our own issue, regardless of where you personally think the sun shines out of!

Do we know if Ferrari asked the FIA (or charlie) for a clafification hense was asked to let back through
but then could not because of reirement?:Hmm

[MS7XWDC]

fine by me, but ask the FIA ;-)

there is no question that the FIA said they'd react more quickly by request & no question Ferrari wanted the harsh penalties if a driver would by some odd circumstances get off lightly [as FA would have with RK retiring]

ironic*






* as in co-incidental

[flam147]

The issue is that you just can't trust the stewards to make timely or consistant decisions.

Best not to rely on them when you have a choice really :-??

i think it is stupid of the FIA to have Mansell as a steward at the British GP , because people can say he was helping Button to try and get on the podium . (am not implying this is true just how people from other countries could think)

[Tifosi]

i think it is stupid of the FIA to have Mansell as a steward at the British GP , because people can say he was helping Button to try and get on the podium . (am not implying this is true just how people from other countries could think)

Yeah, I think a British driver as a steward at the British GP is asking for controversy really. They are a bit short sighted like that though aren't they?

[Nova]

We should have given the place back. Moaning about it is really just sour grapes. We knew it could be given as a penalty and it was.

Ferrari gambled and got it wrong.

Has happened before to others and will happen again. It was avoidable. :-??


Agree, he shouldve immediatly gave the place back, given the calls we've been getting lately...in truth, he broke the rule..too bad, I was anxious to see what he could do given some clean air...I actually think a podium was possible as we are clearly faster than Merc...We have to stop doing these dumb things and get to racing...

[flam147]

i hate to say it, but WE GOT PENILIZED FARE AND SQUARE; nando should have given the position back given that he clearly too advantage by cutting accross
:Hmm lets think Bad accident on track marshals possably on track Lets speed so we can gain an advantage 5 second penulty at end of race.
Lets try and motor race gets in front gets forced off track or accident Drive through penulty.DO WE KNOW IF FERRARI WAS TRYING TO FIND OUT IF THEY HAVE TO GIVE THE PLACE BACK!!!

[512 TR]

The truth of the matter is simple.

Ferrari deserves every piece of misfortune they get for hiring Fernando Alonso. He is a cancer and Luca brought this cancer on board. We have no one else to blame but ourselves. That is the truth anyway you want to spin it. We get what we deserve. Four years ago the tone/talk was quite different...both from Ferrari and the cancer. How quickly things change...

You make your own bed.

[Hermann]

The truth of the matter is simple.

Ferrari deserves every piece of misfortune they get for hiring Fernando Alonso. He is a cancer and Luca brought this cancer on board. We have no one else to blame but ourselves. That is the truth anyway you want to spin it. We get what we deserve. Four years ago the tone/talk was quite different...both from Ferrari and the cancer. How quickly things change...

You make your own bed.

Who needs enemies with 'friends' like that.

[flam147]

Ok, a couple of points from me.

First, the message from Race Control was "drive-through penalty for car number 8 for cutting the chicane and gaining an advantage". Kubica and Alonso went into that chicane side by side, Alonso tried to turn in for the chicane but Kubica pushed him off the track, so Alonso had no other choice but to do what he did. He didn't just straight line the chicane as a premeditated move, he was forced off the track. Then, Kubica retired a couple of laps later, so even without that overtaking move, Alonso would have taken that position anyway. So what advantage did he gain then?

Second, what a coincidence that our dear Mr. Charlie Whiting had to start investigating that incident couple of laps AFTER Kubica had retired, and announce the drive-through JUST as the Safety Car was deployed, meaning an effective black flag (race over) for Alonso. Kubica himself said on the BBC straight after his retirement, that he was told Alonso would yield the place back but that it didn't matter now anyway since he had to retire. So effectively, Alonso got penalised for nothing.

Going back to Valencia, Hamilton gained a monumental advantage by overtaking the Safety Car, and that could have potentially been a big safety hazard. With the safety in mind, Hamilton should have been black flagged in that race, but he only got a drive-through and only after he had built up a huge gap. So effectively, he got away with what was a serious offence.

So just looking at the level of penalties, the FIA is basically saying that cutting a chicane and gaining ONE place in track position is exactly the same level of offence as overtaking the Safety Car? Ok, that's brilliant! Thanks for clearing that up Mr. Whiting. I'll really keep that in mind next time I hear/read/see anything about the FIA's Make Roads Safe campaign.
:thumb:thumb:thumb just th point i was trying to make 2 weeks ago Men working on motoway 50MPH temp limit = message from FIA it is ok to drive at 70mph because you are a good driver no real penulty

[512 TR]

Who needs enemies with 'friends' like that.

The truth sometimes hurt. No more, no less. Deal with it.

[flam147]

Nope....

If 2 cars go into a chicane side by side then one will be in front of the other depending on which side the curve is as the cars go through it, so from the limited camera angles it is very difficult to say who was in front when.

Alonso maintained/gained the place by going off the track, hence an unfair advantage was obtained.
It has happened many times before and resulted in a similar penalty, a classic example is Spa 2008, both went in together, Hamiltion cut the corner and gained track position and hence was given a penalty. Ferrari surely knew this would happen and Alsonso should have/been told to yielded the place back and then to have a go again, as it turns out he would have got it back by default as Kubica retired shortly after the incident.

As for cancelling out the penalty because Kubica retired, Ferrari didn't know Kubica would retire at the time of the incident so can't say they didn't yield then as there was now no place to give back.
If Kubica had stayed running he may have lost more positions before Ferrari were told by race control to yield and then it could have been a right mess trying to managed that situation on track, so a drive through penalty is easier to apply.

Once again the timing/luck stinks, but the rule book is just applied and sometimes a team will loose out. Ferrari seem to be very unlucky the last couple of races.

there is a big difference between trying to pass being to FAST and not being able to take the corner and TRYING TO OVERTAKE and being PUSHED OF THE TRACK WITH NO PLACE TO GO . so try and overtake now and all the driver in front has to do is force the car off track to get a penulty

[Hermann]

The truth sometimes hurt. No more, no less. Deal with it.


Whatever, i suppose our oppinions of 'truth' differ immensly. I don't think its worth having an argument.

[Tifosi]

:Hmm lets think Bad accident on track marshals possably on track Lets speed so we can gain an advantage 5 second penulty at end of race.
Lets try and motor race gets in front gets forced off track or accident Drive through penulty.DO WE KNOW IF FERRARI WAS TRYING TO FIND OUT IF THEY HAVE TO GIVE THE PLACE BACK!!!

I heard Andrea Stella telling him we were asking Charlie Whiting, so Yes, we did.

[flam147]

mate, it's illegal to go off the track when you are racing. If you have to do it to maintain an advantage, it's not allowable. Thems the rules.

[Tifosi]

Indeed. I have absolutely no idea why we asked for clarification when it was clear as day looking at it on the telly box.

[Mirage]

I am an Alonso fan but he took a silly risk by not letting Kubica past and putting his fate in the hands of the stewards. Whether he was right is not the point because it was an unjustified risk. How ironic Kubica blew up a few laps later anyway?

Nothing is going right for Alonso, just when you think thinkgs cant get worse they do.

[Mirage]

The truth of the matter is simple.

Ferrari deserves every piece of misfortune they get for hiring Fernando Alonso. He is a cancer and Luca brought this cancer on board. We have no one else to blame but ourselves. That is the truth anyway you want to spin it. We get what we deserve. Four years ago the tone/talk was quite different...both from Ferrari and the cancer. How quickly things change...

You make your own bed.

What a totaly irrational post. Cancer? The F1 paddock doesnt seem to think so which is why he demands such a high pay. Cancer doesnt bring wins and wc's either. Alonso is ferrari's saviour just imagine where we would be without him? Without hope.

[MS7XWDC]

so try and overtake now and all the driver in front has to do is force the car off track to get a penulty
going by your theory, if FA escaped penalty, all a driver would have to do is just get next to a car going into a chicane, cut the chicane because the other car gave him no room, and we'd have 50 passes by going off track each race:roll

[REDARMYSOJA]

Indeed. I have absolutely no idea why we asked for clarification when it was clear as day looking at it on the telly box.

Well, maybe because so far this year the FIA has been "letting them race" and not giving out harsh penalties, so perhaps Ferrari expected them to be lenient here also. Maybe Ferrari thought the FIA "owed them one" after last race. Maybe because it was a bit of a dodgey call what with Alonso having been beside/ slightly in front of Kubica(take your pick) when it happened.

Regardless, my immediate reaction was that Alonso should have given the position back. I don't know why the FIA took so long to make a decision. They must all be playing cards or something and not watching the race. It would have taken me about 5 seconds to make a ruling.

[flam147]

Indeed. I have absolutely no idea why we asked for clarification when it was clear as day looking at it on the telly box.
Alonso had turned in to take the corner RK came from behind and tried to drive into the side of FA so RK was possably trying not to lose the place by forcing FA off track otherwise RK front wing would have been in front of FA . look at the onboard

[Hermann]

going by your theory, if FA escaped penalty, all a driver would have to do is just get next to a car going into a chicane, cut the chicane because the other car gave him no room, and we'd have 50 passes by going off track each race:roll

At least we would have passes. Didn't Bernie suggest that cutting chicanes should be allowed in the future to improve overtaking?

[flam147]

Yeah, I think a British driver as a steward at the British GP is asking for controversy really. They are a bit short sighted like that though aren't they?

guess what FI of FIA stands for!?

[mad_ani]

The truth of the matter is simple.

Ferrari deserves every piece of misfortune they get for hiring Fernando Alonso. He is a cancer and Luca brought this cancer on board. We have no one else to blame but ourselves. That is the truth anyway you want to spin it. We get what we deserve. Four years ago the tone/talk was quite different...both from Ferrari and the cancer. How quickly things change...

You make your own bed.

Honestly, thats a bit rich...He is a good driver, but off track antics isn't worth mentioning..but as a Ferrari fan, i would never wish the team misfortune although I dont favor Alonso very much..

Alonso has accepted the penalty, and should have given the place back, which he didn't, but the penalty did seem a bit harsh...

However, he does seem frustrated in the team radio, and a bit arrogant to his engineer..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwVHQduVYKE

[Hermann]

Understandable. He asked them if he should give the place back and they said it should be ok. Then they reviewed the incident and still thought it should be ok. Then the stewards decided Fernando would have to give the place back, but it was already too late. He had another car between him and Kubica and Kubica was on his way back to the pits because his car had a problem. Then he got the DT.

You can call it arrogance if you need to do that, but i understand him.

[MS7XWDC]

At least we would have passes. Didn't Bernie suggest that cutting chicanes should be allowed in the future to improve overtaking?

then they might as well legalize passing the safety car, too.

[killer]

He should have given the place back and not risked being penalized. But hey, it is what it is--we move on now.

[Hermann]

This is what Kubica said after the race: 'In my last lap the team informed me that Fernando would have to let me pass again, but by that time i had to retire'.

So you could also think that Fernando was penalized for not doing something he couldn't do anymore. If someone wants to see it that way.

[mad_ani]

Understandable. He asked them if he should give the place back and they said it should be ok. Then they reviewed the incident and still thought it should be ok. Then the stewards decided Fernando would have to give the place back, but it was already too late. He had another car between him and Kubica and Kubica was on his way back to the pits because his car had a problem. Then he got the DT.

You can call it arrogance if you need to do that, but i understand him.

Given the circumstance, it is disappointment for the whole team, but as a driver, a bit more calmness and focus from Alonso, with more controlled way of expressing his opinions would be expected..But this is minimal compared to what Lewis blurted out in Monaco...hence the words "bit arrogant"

[mad_ani]

This is what Kubica said after the race: 'In my last lap the team informed me that Fernando would have to let me pass again, but by that time i had to retire'.

So you could also think that Fernando was penalized for not doing something he couldn't do anymore. If someone wants to see it that way.

yes true, the penalty was harsh considering the fact Kubica retired, but that position should have be given back within a lap or so. Alonso was quite fast once Kubica had retired, but its just bad luck with the SC coming out. Instead of losing 1 or 2 positions, he was at the tail of the field, eventually destroying the teams chances of a points position

[Hermann]

Given the circumstance, it is disappointment for the whole team, but as a driver, a bit more calmness and focus from Alonso, with more controlled way of expressing his opinions would be expected..But this is minimal compared to what Lewis blurted out in Monaco...hence the words "bit arrogant"

Well he had some latin temper- but aside from this, he was quite calm in his spanish interview today.

And i actually don't know why he told the team 'no more radio'. Maybe he just wanted to concentrate on the rest of the race. Don't forget Kimi once said to his race engineer 'don't speak to me in a curve'. You could call this arrogant as well- or like i did, laugh about it :-)

[Hermann]

yes true, the penalty was harsh considering the fact Kubica retired, but that position should have be given back within a lap or so. Alonso was quite fast once Kubica had retired, but its just bad luck with the SC coming out. Instead of losing 1 or 2 positions, he was at the tail of the field, eventually destroying the teams chances of a points position

Actually, when i saw that pass, i though 'he should give it back right away, they will penalize him if he doesn't'. Unfortunately, the team saw it differently. So i'm not saying the DT wasn't justified, but the way it happened it was really unlucky. Without Kubica retiring, Fernando could have slowed down and let him by.

[mad_ani]

Well he had some latin temper- but aside from this, he was quite calm in his spanish interview today.

And i actually don't know why he told the team 'no more radio'. Maybe he just wanted to concentrate on the rest of the race. Don't forget Kimi once said to his race engineer 'don't speak to me in a curve'. You could call this arrogant as well- or like i did, laugh about it :-)

Lol, Ferrari PR must have taught Alonso to be a bit calmer, guess he was worried about the soccer WC...well Kimi's was in qualifying in Malaysia(?) ..and usually driver chats are made on the straights :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24oTHamdkcY&feature=related

[NJB13]

Look at the following series of images of the Alonso/Kubica incident. One thing is clear, Fernando is ahead of Kubica through the whole series. For mine, him being ahead means he is entitled to the racing line.

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/spankyham/AlonsoKubica.jpg

Can someone tell me how he could possibly have stayed on track with where Kubica moved his car? Look at the position of Kubica's front wing (circled in the 2nd last frame) How could Fernando possibly have stayed on the track? For mine, unless someone can give me a good explanation, I think Fernando did a great job to avoid impact and I think this should have been left as a racing incident. If anything was to be investigated, it could have been Kubica moving into the line of the car already ahead of him.

[Brakefade]

I honestly believe if it had been Hamilton or Vettel they would've added a 5 second penalty to their time. This was the FIA's revenge for Ferrari's comments in the last race. They made the FIA look like clowns (which they are), and so this is what we get now. This is why Alonso and Ferrari have been pretty much quiet on the whole thing this time. The FIA was just waiting for us to put a wheel wrong somewhere, and they came down like a ton of bricks on us. If we had taken out Hamilton I think they would've black flagged us for aggressive driving.

[Hermann]

I honestly believe if it had been Hamilton or Vettel they would've added a 5 second penalty to their time. This was the FIA's revenge for Ferrari's comments in the last race. They made the FIA look like clowns (which they are), and so this is what we get now. This is why Alonso and Ferrari have been pretty much quiet on the whole thing this time. The FIA was just waiting for us to put a wheel wrong somewhere, and they came down like a ton of bricks on us. If we had taken out Hamilton I think they would've black flagged us for aggressive driving.

Sorry, if the stewards see the need to 'demonstrate absolute power' they have reached an all- time low for me. Revenge- are we in kindergarten? Well, maybe we are, and i just haven't recognized that all those years.

[mad_ani]

Look at the following series of images of the Alonso/Kubica incident. One thing is clear, Fernando is ahead of Kubica through the whole series. For mine, him being ahead means he is entitled to the racing line.

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/spankyham/AlonsoKubica.jpg

Can someone tell me how he could possibly have stayed on track with where Kubica moved his car? Look at the position of Kubica's front wing (circled in the 2nd last frame) How could Fernando possibly have stayed on the track? For mine, unless someone can give me a good explanation, I think Fernando did a great job to avoid impact and I think this should have been left as a racing incident. If anything was to be investigated, it could have been Kubica moving into the line of the car already ahead of him.

I hope u can get the same set of images from Kubica's onboard camera as well....

Kubica left him no room, and hence Alonso cut across the astro turf and cut the chicane to avoid collision. If u do observe carefully, Kubica is level with Alonso on teh 3rd image....Alonso is ahead, from4th sub- image onwards, the point where he starts to straight line the chicane. Technically, Alonso has taken a short cut and with eventual higher speed as compared to a dying Renault engine, has stayed ahead on track. The distance traveled by the 2 cars would be different, resulting in giving back that place to Kubica.

Renault and Ferrari took the matter to the stewards for a clarification, resulting in a decision to give the place gained by Alonso back...Unfortunately, the Renault retired, leaving the stewards to penalize Alonso in some other way..

The penalty has been inline with previous instances....


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdzrnv_british-grand-prix-2010-highlights_sport

[Brakefade]

Sorry, if the stewards see the need to 'demonstrate absolute power' they have reached an all- time low for me. Revenge- are we in kindergarten? Well, maybe we are, and i just haven't recognized that all those years.

Sadly this comment by Fernando, who we all know doesn't hold anything back, leads to believe this is the case.

"I accept everything they do. They are the judges"

[Hermann]

Sadly this comment by Fernando, who we all know doesn't hold anything back, leads to believe this is the case.

"I accept everything they do. They are the judges"


A signed defeat. Well then- you have to play by their rules, or you won't be playing at all.

[killer]

Renault and Ferrari took the matter to the stewards for a clarification, resulting in a decision to give the place gained by Alonso back...Unfortunately, the Renault retired, leaving the stewards to penalize Alonso in some other way..

Do we have a source that flat out says Fernando was going to give Robert back the position right before the Renault sputtered in to the pits? If there is then that's absolutely crucial information that was overlooked.

However: it's odd that he was still penalized if he was indeed giving the position back and even odder that Fernando and Ferrari never brought this up. Maybe it never happened like this?

[Hermann]

Do we have a source that flat out says Fernando was going to give Robert back the position right before the Renault sputtered in to the pits? If there is then that's absolutely crucial information that was overlooked.

However: it's odd that he was still penalized if he was indeed giving the position back and even odder that Fernando and Ferrari never brought this up. Maybe it never happened like this?

Several. Some have already been posted, one is here:

http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/07/11/better-times-will-come-says-domenicali/



“The situation was Fernando was attacking Robert, because he had potentially much more speed in the car,” said Domenicali. “He tried to be aggressive and overtake, and we complain that the drivers are not aggressive and complain about the lack of overtaking. We spoke to race control on the radio to check the position.

“As soon as we received the information that let’s say, in the opinion of the stewards Fernando should hand back the position to Robert, he was already very far behind, and Robert was really slowing down, because he had a problem.”

[Tifosi]

Look at the following series of images of the Alonso/Kubica incident. One thing is clear, Fernando is ahead of Kubica through the whole series. For mine, him being ahead means he is entitled to the racing line.

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/spankyham/AlonsoKubica.jpg

Can someone tell me how he could possibly have stayed on track with where Kubica moved his car? Look at the position of Kubica's front wing (circled in the 2nd last frame) How could Fernando possibly have stayed on the track? For mine, unless someone can give me a good explanation, I think Fernando did a great job to avoid impact and I think this should have been left as a racing incident. If anything was to be investigated, it could have been Kubica moving into the line of the car already ahead of him.

You have to accept that Kubica was well within his rights to shut the door on Alonso and that Alonso did something illegal, regardless of absolutely anything else. If he'd given the place back and had another go then fair enough.

Picures 3 and 4 of your montage clearly show Kubica pointing his car at the apex of the next corner and that Alonso doesn't have the corner or the line. Yes, he had to take avoiding action as a result but that doesn't mean that a) He was illegally barged off the track or b) that he legally overtook Kubica. More than 2 wheels were off the tarmac when he gained the position.

There is simply no argument for Alonso. It's clear cut. Bleating about the decision is pointless. We faffed about asking Charlie and we burned our bridges as a result.

[Agron]

You have to accept that Kubica was well within his rights to shut the door on Alonso and that Alonso did something illegal, regardless of absolutely anything else. If he'd given the place back and had another go then fair enough.

Picures 3 and 4 of your montage clearly show Kubica pointing his car at the apex of the next corner and that Alonso doesn't have the corner or the line. Yes, he had to take avoiding action as a result but that doesn't mean that a) He was illegally barged off the track or b) that he legally overtook Kubica. More than 2 wheels were off the tarmac when he gained the position.

There is simply no argument for Alonso. It's clear cut. Bleating about the decision is pointless. We faffed about asking Charlie and we burned our bridges as a result.Not really, drivers are instructed to leave a little room for the overtaking car to run alongside them. What Kubica did was as bad as waving on the straight.

[Tifosi]

Not really, drivers are instructed to leave a little room for the overtaking car to run alongside them. What Kubica did was as bad as waving on the straight.

Not really. Unless you are saying drivers should let themselves be overtaken even when the car trying to overtake doesn't have the corner. You are looking at this with Alonso tinted specs, not with any degree of objectivity.

Kubica had the corner (or more accurately - Alonso didn't clearly have the corner), and its clear from Spanky's picure frames that that is the case. The issue is that some people can't deal with the fact that Ferrari should have told him to give the place back straight away.

[Nick Singer]

P*ssed off as i am, the team should have told FA to let Kubica back through straight away.

Even though they couldn't have known that the Renault was going to conk out, they knew that FA would make a couple of seconds a lap once through so giving the place back would have been even costlier the longer things went on...

[Tifosi]

P*ssed off as i am, the team should have told FA to let Kubica back through straight away.

Even though they couldn't have known that the Renault was going to conk out, they knew that FA would make a couple of seconds a lap once through so giving the place back would have been even costlier the longer things went on...

Indeed, and they also knew that there was a risk that a penalty would be given and that it would completely shaft any chance of us getting points that we couldn't afford to lose. We gambled unacceptably with valuable points.

[Ferrari_gal]

It is ridiculous to say that we were wronged. As soon as we saw the overtake we all knew he could be penalised and he was. It was avoidable if we'd given the place back.

That is our own issue, regardless of where you personally think the sun shines out of!

:Hmm :doh yes he should have given it back but how can you give a place back when the car you need to give the place back to is not there anymore ??? They took their time once again in delivering a penalty and well as far as I see it they are out to nail FA and Ferrari any way they can :furious

[Tifosi]

:Hmm :doh yes he should have given it back but how can you give a place back when the car you need to give the place back to is not there anymore ??? They took their time once again in delivering a penalty and well as far as I see it they are out to nail FA and Ferrari any way they can :furious

It's not sale or return dude. Ferrari weren't owed anything once they potentially broke the rules. As soon as FA took Kubica, we were at risk of being penalised. We decided it was an acceptable risk for some reason. It wasn't as it turned out. The FIA didn't cause Kubica to retire. The FIA were at liberty to penalise FA and we knew that. As you rightly say, he couldn't give the place back. Ferrari neglected to think about that.

Absolutely pointless being angry at the decision given that we all knew he was in a marginal decision over breaking a rule which could have been rectified there and then. Waiting for the verdict was at best very risky and at worst pretty stupid.

[NJB13]

I do love Ferrari, so I can accept that maybe I'm just be too one-eyed on this :oops
I can bow to the great knowledge of those more senior to me and I can see what they are saying. But, dam-it are we now going to apologize for racing hard and getting a little aggressive? Are going to have to give back every pass that doesn't get the approval of a team of tacticians, rules experts, stewards and lawyers? It seems we have got the burnt end of the stick all this season and our reaction is to say sorry. I hope we don't sacrifice our will to race and fight hard - for a conservative view that we have to get everyone's ok before we do anything.
I can leave this behind, just as I did for Valencia, and I move on to Germany with optimism that a win can put a lot of things back on the straight and narrow for us......

[Tifosi]

I totally see what you're saying dude, but ironically it was Lewis' transgressions against us at Spa in 2008 that started this whole thing off IMO.

Unfortunately we can't have it both ways. :-s

I agree that rules shouldn't stop drivers from having a go but im 100% sure that if the roles had been reversed yesterday and it had been Kubica trying to overtake Alonso, there would be no-one on this forum arguing Kubica's innocence.

Absolutely no-one.

What's such a shame is that we blew it, not that Fernando had a go. Kubica was an absolute pain yesterday. He was the definition of a mobile chicane and I can see why Alonso got so frustrated. The blame has to be laid at the door of the team for taking an unacceptable risk.

[racingbradley]

A win at the next race is our only answer to this and I am sure that the boys back at the factory are on the case as we speak. :thumb
Total domination is the only way to deal with this. No amount of whinging will get us anywhere but rid us of some built up frustration.;-);-)

[NJB13]

A win at the next race is our only answer to this and I am sure that the boys back at the factory are on the case as we speak. :thumb
Total domination is the only way to deal with this. No amount of whinging will get us anywhere but rid us of some built up frustration.;-);-)

A barnstorming win is definitely what we need - agreed 110%
I'm already looking forward to and thinking about Germany and can't wait for Hungary, I've already got my ticket and it'll be my 1st European GP at the track

[Tifosi]

Yeah. OK, so we aint as strong as RB, but to be honest, did we really expect that?

We had some positives from this week-end and I believe we have potential to be the second team atm.

I can easily see Red Bull do what Macca did in 2007 to be honest, which gives us an opportunity to steal.

We look a heck of a lot better than we did this time last season. Alonso has the ability and so does the car. We have to pray we can hook it together in time.

As for Felipe, i'm at a loss to know what to think right now but I do know that he's trying just as hard as he ever has so I ain't gonna call for his head anytime soon.

Forza Ferrari. :thumb

[slither]

When I saw Fernando passing Kubica and not giving the position back, I said, "we have another penalty". It was obvious, and not giving the position back is so amateur. This is the failure of both Fernando and Stefano. The position should be given back immediately. If the driver that you are trying to pass closes the door, you cannot pass, it is his defence.

After the penalty was announced I also said lets make it quick because lots of broken parts were on the grid, and a safety car deployment was possible, and they deployed it.

If I can see these, how Domenicali can't? We may forget any titles this year.

BTW steward decisions are no excuses, this season we just cannot win.

[racingbradley]

.
As for Felipe, i'm at a loss to know what to think right now but I do know that he's trying just as hard as he ever has so I ain't gonna call for his head anytime soon.
Forza Ferrari. :thumb
You are right I find it hard to understand but I am cheered to see that he is still pushing-----he had a great start yesterday before he & Nando touched. Maybe his own words offer some explanation.
“I don’t know what to do, but I have to find some way of getting rid of the bad luck that is following me around! In the last few races, everything has happened to me. Today my race was soon over, when I touched with Fernando and got a puncture which dropped me to the back of the pack. The car was going well, but that’s not much use if you cannot get a result. The championship is not over after this race, but clearly my situation is compromised: I would need to win a lot of races while others run into the same difficulties that have come my way in recent races. However, we must not give up: we will keep our heads high and continue to push on the development of the car and then see what results come our way.”

[xinebessa]

Look at the following series of images of the Alonso/Kubica incident. One thing is clear, Fernando is ahead of Kubica through the whole series. For mine, him being ahead means he is entitled to the racing line.

Can someone tell me how he could possibly have stayed on track with where Kubica moved his car? Look at the position of Kubica's front wing (circled in the 2nd last frame) How could Fernando possibly have stayed on the track? For mine, unless someone can give me a good explanation, I think Fernando did a great job to avoid impact and I think this should have been left as a racing incident. If anything was to be investigated, it could have been Kubica moving into the line of the car already ahead of him.

I love this idea... could have an interesting impact on F1 if you had to give up the line through a corner if there is another car just in front of you...

You'll have two cars racing up to a corner, lets say a left hand bend, the car on the outside breaks fractionally later and gets a foot in front of the one on the inside. The one on the inside must then have to get out of the way so that the one on the outside can take the racing line as he is in front... genious... I don't know why they haven't been doing that in F1 all these years, it'll work perfectly!

:doh

[Grinsomx]

:Hmm :doh yes he should have given it back but how can you give a place back when the car you need to give the place back to is not there anymore ??? They took their time once again in delivering a penalty and well as far as I see it they are out to nail FA and Ferrari any way they can :furious

thats all there is to say, both team and driver acted like fools, Alonso should not have asked the pitwall what to do. he needed to take his foot of the gas and let kubica pass again.
same thing for the team, it was a dumb mistake to asume "it would be ok", they had to tell fernando to give back the position instead of gambling away much needed points.
the penalty was way too harsh, but we gave them a change to give us a penalty in the 1st place.

[ferrari4life]

Ferrari can always pull out of the next race to protest what is clearly a FIA that is unjust in handing out penalties.
Like i said before if they are willing to slap MS with a 25 second penalty for passing Alonso when he shouldn't have because that was the only penalty available to them at the time. But yet they find this magical 5 second penalty for the fast 9 in the previous race because they deemed that the punishment didn't fit the crime. However they hand Alonso a drive through penalty for what was clearly a gray situation when you consider he was pushed off the track.

A clear bias and a very unethical FIA if you ask me.

[F2007]

When I saw Fernando passing Kubica and not giving the position back, I said, "we have another penalty". It was obvious, and not giving the position back is so amateur. This is the failure of both Fernando and Stefano. The position should be given back immediately. If the driver that you are trying to pass closes the door, you cannot pass, it is his defence.

After the penalty was announced I also said lets make it quick because lots of broken parts were on the grid, and a safety car deployment was possible, and they deployed it.

If I can see these, how Domenicali can't? We may forget any titles this year.

BTW steward decisions are no excuses, this season we just cannot win.

Your right on this one. Clearly changing the drivers isnt the answer. Only thing i can imagine Ferrari to get back to winning ways is changing SD. But if people and team is happy the way things are done, then we have to just settle to this what we see from GP to GP.

[mad_ani]

Ferrari can always pull out of the next race to protest what is clearly a FIA that is unjust in handing out penalties.
Like i said before if they are willing to slap MS with a 25 second penalty for passing Alonso when he shouldn't have because that was the only penalty available to them at the time. But yet they find this magical 5 second penalty for the fast 9 in the previous race because they deemed that the punishment didn't fit the crime. However they hand Alonso a drive through penalty for what was clearly a gray situation when you consider he was pushed off the track.

A clear bias and a very unethical FIA if you ask me.

I dont thin Ferrari will ever do that...why not take the 40+ points in the next race rather than just let it go??disappoint 100000 fan on site and millions watching?? Sorry mate..wont happen...
After all that drama LdM and Max Mosely did of pulling out of F1, we are enjoying one of the most exciting seasons..3-4 competetives teams fighting out there...

Rules have to be clarified so that no more grey area are left.

[Tifosi]

Ferrari can always pull out of the next race to protest what is clearly a FIA that is unjust in handing out penalties.
Like i said before if they are willing to slap MS with a 25 second penalty for passing Alonso when he shouldn't have because that was the only penalty available to them at the time. But yet they find this magical 5 second penalty for the fast 9 in the previous race because they deemed that the punishment didn't fit the crime. However they hand Alonso a drive through penalty for what was clearly a gray situation when you consider he was pushed off the track.

A clear bias and a very unethical FIA if you ask me.

They could if they were kids with swollen botton lips i suppose ;-)

They handed Alonso a drive through cos he made an illegal move and failed to yield after it. We had the option to change it from gray to black and white and we chose to stick with gray until it bit us on the bum (excuse multiple metaphors)

[straycat]

looking at the clips posted on here and it looks as though the overtaking move was clean except kubica continued to come over...i felt the penalty was deserved at first but now i am wondering...of course the rules are the final judge and the stewards are
"on top of things".;-)

[Nova]

But it makes me wonder..why would Alonso, a 2 time WDC, 1 of the fastest drivers out there..one who knows the rules very well..why would he NOT give the position back
knowing the rules, knowing that the stewards will hand out the fines or penalties, especially after they screwed up the race b4 this one...???
Rules are clear on this, Alonso couldve immediatly let Kubica past w/out losing much and simply repassed him in the next few laps..thus preserving a decent finish...at that
point, 3rd was still very possible...You cant blame Kubica, he was simplt defending his position in the same way every other driver does....

What I didnt like was the way the Force car moved over on the Ferrari later in the race, thus causing a puncture....it appears that the sidewalls of these tires cant take much, and as seen
Sunday, were exploited..whether on purpose or by accident....

[ferrari4life]

They could if they were kids with swollen botton lips i suppose ;-)

They handed Alonso a drive through cos he made an illegal move and failed to yield after it. We had the option to change it from gray to black and white and we chose to stick with gray until it bit us on the bum (excuse multiple metaphors)

Just the same they could have said this incident will be reviewed after the race and then handed him a 5 second penalty..after all that would be a more appropriate punishment for the crime. Or they could have done like they did in Hamilton case and waited till 20 laps later to give him the penalty..

Just saying that it seems strange that the penalties handed to Alonso hurt his race whereas the penalty handed to Hamilton did not. And what would be considered a more serious rules breach..passing a safety car or passing a driver by going off the track after the other driver kinda forced you off the track.

When it comes to Hamilton they seem to have taken the opinion that let the race itself decide the winner rather than interfere by adding penalties...whereas in Alonsos case its lets throw the rule book at him for sure..

[Tifosi]

Just the same they could have said this incident will be reviewed after the race and then handed him a 5 second penalty..after all that would be a more appropriate punishment for the crime. Or they could have done like they did in Hamilton case and waited till 20 laps later to give him the penalty..

Just saying that it seems strange that the penalties handed to Alonso hurt his race whereas the penalty handed to Hamilton did not. And what would be considered a more serious rules breach..passing a safety car or passing a driver by going off the track after the other driver kinda forced you off the track.

When it comes to Hamilton they seem to have taken the opinion that let the race itself decide the winner rather than interfere by adding penalties...whereas in Alonsos case its lets throw the rule book at him for sure..

I agree that the lack of consistancy is ridiculous mate. What it boils down to is that you can't rely on the stewards or the FIA to be consistant, timely or fair. Unfortunately on this occasion, we did :-??

[Ferrarichamp]

If anything Renaulty were made to look foolish. Demanding a penalty for Alonso, when their car couldn't even do the next couple laps :roll

[Alonsomaniac]

My problem is not the fact that Alonso was given a penalty. One can have different opinions on the fact if a penalty was right, but the stewards decide and that's it.
My problem is that the penalty he was given was in no comparison at all with the mistake he made.
If he had been given a 5 sec or even a 10sec penalty after the race I would have had some understanding for it, and i think Fernando and Ferrari would also have no problems with that.
But what they did now was completely destroying his race.
I can certainly understand Fernando's anger - the previous race he 100% followed the rules and it destroyed his race (and not Hamilton's, who did break the rules) and now he makes a mistake and again he is the one who's race is destroyed.
It would certainly make me mad if this happened to me.........

[Tifosi]

My problem is not the fact that Alonso was given a penalty. One can have different opinions on the fact if a penalty was right, but the stewards decide and that's it.
My problem is that the penalty he was given was in no comparison at all with the mistake he made.
If he had been given a 5 sec or even a 10sec penalty after the race I would have had some understanding for it, and i think Fernando and Ferrari would also have no problems with that.
But what they did now was completely destroying his race.
I can certainly understand Fernando's anger - the previous race he 100% followed the rules and it destroyed his race (and not Hamilton's, who did break the rules) and now he makes a mistake and again he is the one who's race is destroyed.
It would certainly make me mad if this happened to me.........

Yeah, I understand what you mean.

However, the stewards and FIA are never consistant so there's no point worrying about it to be honest :-??

[REDARMYSOJA]

I totally see what you're saying dude, but ironically it was Lewis' transgressions against us at Spa in 2008 that started this whole thing off IMO.

To rub a little salt in our wound, at Spa, Lewis was penalized and dropped from 1st to 3rd. Alonso was penalized yesterday and dropped from 4th to 16th. Another case like at Valencia of the stars lining up against us.


I agree that rules shouldn't stop drivers from having a go but im 100% sure that if the roles had been reversed yesterday and it had been Kubica trying to overtake Alonso, there would be no-one on this forum arguing Kubica's innocence.


Very true. I don't see why the team didn't immediatly tell Alonso to give the spot back, or why it took the stewards so long to decide. I knew as soon as I saw it that he should. But, one other point, as we saw at Valencia with the 5 sec. penalties the stewards can take into account "extenuating circumstances". So I don't see why at Silverstone they couldn't have told Alonso to give the spot back to whoever was there, which I think was Button or Rubens at the time, considering there is a case for Kubica forcing him off and also being out of the race by then.

[F2007]

But it makes me wonder..why would Alonso, a 2 time WDC, 1 of the fastest drivers out there..one who knows the rules very well..why would he NOT give the position back
knowing the rules,

I thought the same. And i believe Alonso really thought he did nothing wrong, its the only logical answer why he didnt give Kube the place back right away.

He even said in the radio that Kube pushed him out. I like many others thought it wasnt the case and he should have given the place back.

He could have taken Kube in the next few corners he was so much faster.

[RedDragon]

The thing that gets under my skin is that as soon as I saw it happen, I said, "He's got to give that position back." When he didn't, and Kubica retired, I thought, "With the way the stewards have been all year, he'll just get a warning for that." It's not the fact that he got a penalty, it's the inconsistancy with the penalties that is driving me insane. I keep waiting for "penalty-gate", or "steward-gate" or whatever the next goofy catch phrase is that seems to plague us every year. Then I wonder, are the penalties really that much more inconsistant, or is it that there is no other uproar going on this year to take up all our time and distract us.

[WS6TransAm01]

As soon as I saw Alonso pass Robert I said give the place back. My girlfriend, who only fallows F1 cause she finds Vettel cute and cheers for him even though she knows it pi$$es me off, said that did not look right to her and Alonso needed to give the place back. But he didn't.

Alonso commited the crime, but the punishment was not fitting of the offence in the least bit. I can see a 5second penalty at the end seeing as how Robert was out of the race, but the combination of Drive-Thru Penalty, Safety Car, knowing that the rules state that a drive-thru penalty can not be served during a SC period, all smells a little fishy to me. I am not one for conspiracy theories, but the FIA does seem to have a certain bias as of late.

It sucks.


Well.. it was a move that deserved a penalty.. but they set a precedent with Hamilton in Valencia.. why didn't they give Alonso 20 laps or so to move up the field and then take his drive thru? Or just give him a 5 sec penalty after the race... or heck, even make up another completely new penalty that isn't in the rule book.

Hey Silent Bob... nice Avatar... the guy who took that picture must be really good! lol

[Ken]

This is what Kubica said after the race: 'In my last lap the team informed me that Fernando would have to let me pass again, but by that time i had to retire'.

So you could also think that Fernando was penalized for not doing something he couldn't do anymore. If someone wants to see it that way.

I was so angry at how overly severe the penalty became because of the SC,

My view of the whole fiasco based on previous races is as follows, 1st it has been accepted the driver keeps his posistion after such an incident until the team is informed by Charlie Whitless ( the Race Controller ) that their driver has been deemed to have committed an offence, the team would inform their driver of the penalty, This all happened as normal BUT when:-
a. the driver who was deemed to have lost a place retired after the decision was made and before the penalty could be served.
b. The SC had to be deployed again before the penalty could be served.

SURELY Charlie Whitless could have reviewed his decision on the Basis that the penalty would not only cause the driver to lose not just one place but another nine making the penalty far more extreme than the original offence deemed necessary .

AGAIN Charlie Whitless failed on the previous race to get the penalty right for the nature of the offence committed ie. Ramilton ended up with no penalty what so ever. Again a case of failed observation on how the race was proceeding.

Incase some of you wonder Who Charlie Whitless is try Charlie Whiting.

Disgusted from Belfast.

Next race surely with our car now on Pace and with 2 good drivers we can realy show MacLiars how it shouls be done :ferrarifl:ferrarifl:ferrarifl

[Tifosi]

I thought the same. And i believe Alonso really thought he did nothing wrong, its the only logical answer why he didnt give Kube the place back right away.

He even said in the radio that Kube pushed him out. I like many others thought it wasnt the case and he should have given the place back.

He could have taken Kube in the next few corners he was so much faster.

The reason he didnt give it back is that he wasnt privvy to the footage we all saw and Andrea Stella told him that they were checking with Whiting. It's not Alonso's job to evaluate the legality of the situation because he wasn't in a position to. Ferrari were responsible for instructing Alonso to give the place back but they didn't.

[evo_spook]

1st it has been accepted the driver keeps his posistion after such an incident until the team is informed by Charlie Whitless ( the Race Controller ) that their driver has been deemed to have committed an offence, the team would inform their driver of the penalty, This all happened as normal BUT


Sorry I don't where you've hot the idea from that's it's accepted to be informed, I've never heard that before and as proven at spa asking Charlie is a pointless exercise.

[F2007]

The reason he didnt give it back is that he wasnt privvy to the footage we all saw and Andrea Stella told him that they were checking with Whiting. It's not Alonso's job to evaluate the legality of the situation because he wasn't in a position to. Ferrari were responsible for instructing Alonso to give the place back but they didn't.

Im sure he knew he cut the corner. He just put the blame on Kube for it.
(he said it in the radio)

Anyways if he wanted to check it from Andrea Stella then Andrea should have said :""give the place back straight away, lets try it later we are a lot faster... rather than i dont know lets see what Whiting says""

Anyways there is ofcourse many different views. I saw it as mistake by Alonso(not giving the place back) and then team for giving wrong information to Alonso.

[aroutis]

Ferrari can always pull out of the next race to protest what is clearly a FIA that is unjust in handing out penalties.
Like i said before if they are willing to slap MS with a 25 second penalty for passing Alonso when he shouldn't have because that was the only penalty available to them at the time. But yet they find this magical 5 second penalty for the fast 9 in the previous race because they deemed that the punishment didn't fit the crime. However they hand Alonso a drive through penalty for what was clearly a gray situation when you consider he was pushed off the track.

A clear bias and a very unethical FIA if you ask me.

And the last time Ferrari pulled out from a race in form of protest was... ?

[Ken]

Pulling ones hair out on these events or pulling out of races is sadly very counter productive.

My post was aimed at how on 2 consecutive races the penalties awarded were fatuous in both extremes. One penalty ended up as NO penalty and the second one ended up far more harsh than the offence would normally have born.

Both instances were very bad judgement by the race controller and compounded by a lack of discretion to review the penalties under changing conditions to ensure the penalties were fair to all the drivers in the race.

[RedDragon]

Good point.

Isn't cutting the chicane a no-no because it gives someone an unfair advantage? If Kubica had continued the race, I could understand Alonso giving the position back. But since Kubica had retired by the time the decision had been made, technically Alonso did not receive an unfair advantage at that point. We've seen different times where they were investigating 2 drivers for incidents, and one retires so they do nothing.

[Ferrari_gal]

Good point.

Isn't cutting the chicane a no-no because it gives someone an unfair advantage? If Kubica had continued the race, I could understand Alonso giving the position back. But since Kubica had retired by the time the decision had been made, technically Alonso did not receive an unfair advantage at that point. We've seen different times where they were investigating 2 drivers for incidents, and one retires so they do nothing.

:thumb

[MS7XWDC]

i don't see how a Ferrari fan can complain now that FA got a harsh penalty when he would otherwise have gotten off lightly[because RK retired]--- that's exactly what Ferrari requested after Valencia .... so for the FIA to give FA a 5 second penalty @ Silverstone, they'd actually be going against Ferrari's wishes.

[impactX]

accordin to charlie whiting, he advised ferrari immediately for 3 times that FA should give back the position or else the stewards would intervene, but ferrari decided against it

[NJB13]

accordin to charlie whiting, he advised ferrari immediately for 3 times that FA should give back the position or else the stewards would intervene, but ferrari decided against it

I'll wait til I hear from our guys when exactly we were actually contacted by Charlie and Co. the first time and advised to give back the spot.

[Pekka]

accordin to charlie whiting, he advised ferrari immediately for 3 times that FA should give back the position or else the stewards would intervene, but ferrari decided against it

Hah that's like over 24 hours old news..

Yeh Charlie did advise Ferrari for 3 times.. He did it immediately after the incident. Ferrari decided to let Alonso race.. After the 3rd time Charlie advised Ferrari against penalties etc Ferrari said that Fernando was too Far from Robert to let him past him..

Gg Ferrari

Oh ye and heres a link http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2010/07/1155400

That one is in finnish but you should be able to find it from Autosprint website..

[impactX]

Did the Ferrari management think that by arguing three times, the result would have been different? Someone at Ferrari should have made the call to Alonso to give back the position as immediately as Whiting first advised of Ferrari of such... and then start the attack all over again.

[Hermann]

Actually i don't think Whiting's 'advice' would have made a difference. When he told McLaren in Spa 2008 it didn't prevent a penalty. He can give advice, but he is not the one applying the penalties, as far as i know.


Another thing: Fernando cut the chicane because Kubica forced him off track in the middle of the overtaking maneuver. Now , quite a lot of F1 fans seem to agree that Fernando would have to give the place back despite Kubica's move into him (as did the stewards).

If you can't attempt an overtake because you might go on the grass (or whatever) and have to give the position back, then why bother? There should be a difference between just cutting a chicane without being forced to win a position and what happened between Kubica and Fernando in Silverstone. Otherwise, they might just install armco around each circuit, like in Monaco, and we can watch a nice procession of coloured cars going around the track on every race day.

[Pekka]

Well on the third contact between Charlie and Ferrari he said that the 'referees' might punish Ferrari if Fernando does not let Kubica past him. At this point Fernando had built a gap on Robert and therefore Ferrari said that they will not give back that position.... And we all know what happened.. IMO Ferrari just shot themselves in the foot. Too much emotion, too little rationality..

[Ferrari_gal]

Well I think it is all done now ... we need to forget it and look forward to the next race and hope all goes well.. ( No use crying over spoilt milk as they say ... ):lou

[Tifosi]

Well I think it is all done now ... we need to forget it and look forward to the next race and hope all goes well.. ( No use crying over spoilt milk as they say ... ):lou

or indeed blaming the milkman ;-)

[tpe]

I do...
Question: Where is the helicopter view? Does anyone saw it from above? I strongly believe that the team did wrong in that. I believe that they thought that FA was in front of RK and had the racing line. So, he was forced out of track, having forgot Spa for example. Anyway, IMHO it's a SD fault.

[Agron]

or indeed blaming the milkman ;-)He has been throwing the bottles to our door and walls lately so it's not like we don't have the right to blame him a little ;-)

[Tifosi]

He has been throwing the bottles to our door and walls lately so it's not like we don't have the right to blame him a little ;-)

Hmmm. Sorry mate. Can't agree. We knew the risk, were repeatedly warned by our stupid milkman (whom we can't change) and yet we decided that the safety net wasn't required and that we'd just wait and see if the doorstep got covered in milk or not.

Best drop the analogy now :lol

[Becool70]

Ferrari need to be a little wiser, even I knew the penalty was coming and he should have given the position back! YES Kubica did not help the situation by pushing Alo out the track but Ferrari should know better and they put all their chips on the wrong number... cross your T's and dot your I's next time team...

[tpe]

OK guys, after the release of the communication, what are your opinions?
I still believe that FIA does not like Ferrari or Alonso. I tend to believe that JT cannot forget how he left from Ferrari and why...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85320

[Tifosi]

OK guys, after the release of the communication, what are your opinions?
I still believe that FIA does not like Ferrari or Alonso. I tend to believe that JT cannot forget how he left from Ferrari and why...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85320

Ah so if the FIA do something that upsets Ferrari it's something to do with a conspiracy theory over the conditions under which JT left Ferrari and if they do something pro-Ferrari then its because JT is Ferrari-biased.

Apparently Charlie Whiting is anti-Ferrari because he's British! Imagine if he was German! Then he'd be anti-British - obviously!!!!!! :roll

People use nationalities as convenient excuses to justify bad luck and poor team decisions. They also conveniently forget the decisions that went our way in the past.

[Hermann]

No he wouldn't. Germans are anglophile. And of course he would support the german drivers first.

[Ferrari_gal]

OK guys, after the release of the communication, what are your opinions?
I still believe that FIA does not like Ferrari or Alonso. I tend to believe that JT cannot forget how he left from Ferrari and why...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85320

Yes I tend to agree here, those were my thoughts right from the start... but we can live with that I'm sure.

[Hornet]

OK guys, after the release of the communication, what are your opinions?
I still believe that FIA does not like Ferrari or Alonso. I tend to believe that JT cannot forget how he left from Ferrari and why...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85320

I think the FIA's band of stewards for F1 races is incompetent and they really need to take a hard look at how they operate things.

They are as fast and effective as a teenage girl trying to decide what to wear to a party

[Tifosi]

No he wouldn't. Germans are anglophile. And of course he would support the german drivers first.

How can you SERIOUSLY suggest that all officials are national biased? That's insulting to all professionals in all walks of life. It's a ridiculous idea.

[Hermann]

I was being merely being sarcastic. But i don't think its impossible though, bias happens in every sport. Betting scandals as well. We've had a lot of that here in Germany in the last years, and the referees were involved. So hardly anything surprises me anymore :roll

[Greig]

Ferrari need to be a little wiser, even I knew the penalty was coming and he should have given the position back! YES Kubica did not help the situation by pushing Alo out the track but Ferrari should know better and they put all their chips on the wrong number... cross your T's and dot your I's next time team...

Alonso should know as well to give it back, not just Ferrari, would you be deflecting blame by any chance?

[Agron]

Alonso should know as well to give it back, not just Ferrari, would you be deflecting blame by any chance?It wasn't clear at all and he asked the team. Whatever the team decides is absolute and they said to not give it back until Charlie answers.

[Ferrari_gal]

It wasn't clear at all and he asked the team. Whatever the team decides is absolute and they said to not give it back until Charlie answers.


:thumb Yes and they took their merry time:-??

[Greig]

It wasn't clear at all and he asked the team. Whatever the team decides is absolute and they said to not give it back until Charlie answers.

It was very clear he overtook by cutting the corner, surely a 2 times champ knows that, well you would hope so, but suggesting Ferrari are to blame is just bordering on insanity :-)

[Tifosi]

Wouldn't he rely on the team at a time like that though Greig? If you are driving, you obviously know if you've done summat borderline but surely you rely on the team to guide you cos they have more TV data and comms (and brains that aren't concentrating on driving) to help make the decision the best one?

[Agron]

It was very clear he overtook by cutting the corner, surely a 2 times champ knows that, well you would hope so, but suggesting Ferrari are to blame is just bordering on insanity :-)Apparently you know better than Alonso, Ferrari and RC, the first asked to make sure, the second thought it was ok and the third couldn't answer straight away and took 2 minutes of stewards discussion to answer.
Or do you suggest that after asking the team, and them saying to not give the place back the driver should have just dissobeyed them?

External Link to a good post that explains why it wasn't at all clear who should have been given the penalty: http://forum.planet-f1.com/index.php?t=msg&th=86037&prevloaded=1&&start=440#msg_num_36, IMO RK was in the wrong, the move should have been ok and either RK should have been given a penalty or be accepted as a racing incident, as he didn't give room to a car alongside (and slightly ahead of him even) as per the rules. If external links aren't allowed I appologize.

[Greig]

You can't overtake by going off track, simple to understand, for you, for me, for Alonso and for Ferrari. It was very clear he was in the wrong and Kubica had every right to defend his postition, it's amazing how Alonso fans can turn things around into pure fantasy.

[Greig]

Wouldn't he rely on the team at a time like that though Greig? If you are driving, you obviously know if you've done summat borderline but surely you rely on the team to guide you cos they have more TV data and comms (and brains that aren't concentrating on driving) to help make the decision the best one?

Surely he can think for himself, he is a 2 times champ, the best driver, the one with the racing brain, surely he knew what he did was not really going to go unpunished, everyone else watching knew he had to give it back, he knew he overtook by going off track, he passed the buck to the team, who should have known better and told him to give it back, but still Alonso should have just gave it back right away, no need to even go on the radio to ask.

[Agron]

You also can't squeeze a driver alongside you, and it's punishable, but it happened. Anyway, thank you for the great discussion, apparently if we disagree on something that benefits Alonso it automatically makes my arguments pure fantasy. I will go read something by Tolkien with Stella, Domenicalli and Alonso then :roll

[Greig]

You also can't squeeze a driver alongside you, and it's punishable, but it happened. Anyway, thank you for the great discussion, apparently if we disagree on something that benefits Alonso it automatically makes my arguments pure fantasy. I will go read something by Tolkien with Stella, Domenicalli and Alonso then :roll

When has it been punished? MS squeezed Massa at Canada, penalty?

Blaming it on Kubica is indeed pure fantasy he had every right to push Alonso out to the outside, Alonso had no right to cut the track and take the place, and you can roll all the eyes you like.....

[Tobes]

Surely he can think for himself, he is a 2 times champ, the best driver, the one with the racing brain, surely he knew what he did was not really going to go unpunished, everyone else watching knew he had to give it back, he knew he overtook by going off track, he passed the buck to the team, who should have known better and told him to give it back, but still Alonso should have just gave it back right away, no need to even go on the radio to ask.

I think it's reasonable for Alonso to have asked the team, these things do happen incredibly fast and if his peripheral vision on his left side was being consumed by a very close Renault he could reasonably question how much of the chicane he cut, watching the tv replays and knowing Renault were asking the question too it would have been prudent just to have given the place back, I think anyone who saw the replay could see that, the only ones who can't see the replays are the drivers, so I do think the team has a degree of responsibility...
I think the punishment wasn't reflective of the crime, but some you win, some you lose, we do seem to be on the losing end a bit recently, but the status quo will be restored during the course of the season... :-)

[Tifosi]

Surely he can think for himself, he is a 2 times champ, the best driver, the one with the racing brain, surely he knew what he did was not really going to go unpunished, everyone else watching knew he had to give it back, he knew he overtook by going off track, he passed the buck to the team, who should have known better and told him to give it back, but still Alonso should have just gave it back right away, no need to even go on the radio to ask.

Maybe Andrea should have reminded him of that instead of going "um...ok...we'll get back to you" ;-)

[Greig]

Wonder if the team has to dress him in the morning too :-)

[Becool70]

Alonso should know as well to give it back, not just Ferrari, would you be deflecting blame by any chance?

It's a team effort doe Alonso and he asked the question to his team what he should do and the rest is history or havent you been reading???

[Becool70]

Wonder if the team has to dress him in the morning too :-)

I am a little confused at what u getting at Greig.. whats your point? ALO got pushed to the chicane and it was clearly not a black white situation, he asked his team and got an answer what else is he supposed to do?? In my ipinion he took Kubica and he avoided contact, ALO did the right thing...

[mad_ani]

Alonso overtook Kubica by cutting across the chicane...a distance traveled less than what Kubica did and hence over took him. since he had to be penalized as Kubica retired a drive thru was awarded, something similar to Spa 08, where Lewis was given a 20+sec penalty after the race losing the win.

he may have done the right thing to avoid contact, but it would be fair to give back that place and fight back again, all in a short span.

[Greig]

I am a little confused at what u getting at Greig.. whats your point? ALO got pushed to the chicane and it was clearly not a black white situation, he asked his team and got an answer what else is he supposed to do?? In my ipinion he took Kubica and he avoided contact, ALO did the right thing...

It was black and white, Alonso cut the track to make the pass, it was very clear, also Kubica done what any other top driver would do and squeezed Alonso out, Alonso could have backed out of it and not made a pass while cutting the track, so my point is Kubica was not to blame as you suggest, and that if Fernando did not know he was off track then I am amazed. How can you say he done the right thing when it cost him points yet again.

[Tifosi]

Well if Alonso is to blame then we are too. Is the team so scared of him that they can't tell him when he should cede the place back immediately? Or do they just leave it up to him to decide the obvious?

Alonso would naturally have checked back with the team and he wasn't given any clear indication so therefore both parties must have been to blame.

One thing is for sure, Kubica isn't ;-)

[Greig]

Did Lewis need to check with his team at Spa 08? Surely a racing driver knows the limits and knows when they have gone off track to pass someone, I don't see why he even needed to radio the team.

[mad_ani]

Lewis had it pretty straight forward that he did not do anything wrong (for the fact he "gave back" the position) so there was no need to radio the team back....Following is content from wikipedia:



Hamilton appeared on the podium and subsequent press conference in the winner's position. When questioned on the incident at the press conference, Hamilton defended his actions:
[Räikkönen] pushed me to the point where I would either have been on the kerb and crashed into him or have to go on the escape route, so I went on the escape route. I understood I had to let him past, so I did. I got in his tow and he was ducking and diving left and right and I did the same and managed to get back to the inside of him. But then he hit me at the apex of the corner but I think I was pretty much gone from there.
—Lewis Hamilton, [28]

Two hours after the race, the FIA stewards for the race issued a statement announcing that Hamilton was guilty of contravening Article 30.3 (a) of the 2008 FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations and Appendix L, Chapter 4, Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code, which both state that cutting a chicane and gaining an advantage is subject to a drive-through penalty. As the race had finished, a 25-second penalty was added to Hamilton's time instead.[29] As a result of this penalty, Massa was promoted to winner of the Grand Prix, and Hamilton was dropped down to third position.[30]

On September 9, McLaren lodged an official complaint with the FIA about the incident.[31] In the appeal hearing on September 22, McLaren alleged that they had twice been advised by race director Charlie Whiting that Hamilton had correctly returned the position to Räikkönen.[32] Furthermore, they presented telemetry evidence suggesting that Hamilton had not only crossed the finish line after Räikkönen, but that he was travelling 6.7 km/h slower at the time.[33]
As drive-through penalties are not admissible for appeal,[34] McLaren's lawyer Mark Phillips QC attempted to convince the court that since the penalty was in the form of time added on, the case was valid.[32] They presented the previous case of Vitantonio Liuzzi at the 2007 Japanese Grand Prix, specifically the FIA's claim that the presiding chief steward at the race, Tony Scott Andrews, had admitted fault in awarding the penalty to Liuzzi.[35] Andrews denied the FIA's allegation.[35] McLaren went on to use the case as a precedent for the Spa incident. The Court stated that this analogy was invalid, since in Liuzzi's case the admissibility of his appeal was not contested.[36]
On September 23, the Court of Appeal issued its decision, ruling that the appeal was inadmissible.[36]
[edit]Reaction

[Greig]

He passed by cutting the track, and gave it straight back, without the need for team radio and calls to the FIA, which was my point....

[Tifosi]

Did Lewis need to check with his team at Spa 08? Surely a racing driver knows the limits and knows when they have gone off track to pass someone, I don't see why he even needed to radio the team.

OK. So why did we faff about and humour him to our detriment then instead of telling him what he should have already known? :-s

[Greig]

OK. So why did we faff about and humour him to our detriment then instead of telling him what he should have already known? :-s

Because Stefano is hopeless :-)

[mad_ani]

Because Stefano is hopeless :-)

And a better alternative is???:-)

[Greig]

And a better alternative is???:-)

To be more decisive?

[Tifosi]

Because Stefano is hopeless :-)

Heheh, well my point was that it was just as much a team error as it was Alonso's fault. :-??

What does my head in is those who would rather blame Kubica or Charlie Whiting for an incident that literally had thousands of people screaming at their TVs (and track screens) "You better give that back or we may be in trouble here". Naah....it's an FIA Vendetta apparently! :roll

We all knew the situation and that the risk was just too great under the circumstances, yet we ummed over it til it was confirmed. Wishy washy decision making. I don't know if it was us who released those radio transcripts or not but they just made us look even more indecisive. Can't wait for Germany so I can move on :lol

[Ferrari_gal]

Heheh, well my point was that it was just as much a team error as it was Alonso's fault. :-??

What does my head in is those who would rather blame Kubica or Charlie Whiting for an incident that literally had thousands of people screaming at their TVs (and track screens) "You better give that back or we may be in trouble here". Naah....it's an FIA Vendetta apparently! :roll

We all knew the situation and that the risk was just too great under the circumstances, yet we ummed over it til it was confirmed. Wishy washy decision making. I don't know if it was us who released those radio transcripts or not but they just made us look even more indecisive. Can't wait for Germany so I can move on :lol

I think we should just put this to bed now..... It is old news and no use getting angry over it still. We made the mistake and we need to move on now.:lou

[Becool70]

It was black and white, Alonso cut the track to make the pass, it was very clear, also Kubica done what any other top driver would do and squeezed Alonso out, Alonso could have backed out of it and not made a pass while cutting the track, so my point is Kubica was not to blame as you suggest, and that if Fernando did not know he was off track then I am amazed. How can you say he done the right thing when it cost him points yet again.

Obviously you have not read all the posts and points of view, what I am sayin Greig is that ALonso ASK HIS TEAM what to do as ALL DRIVERS DO over the radio... THE TEAM made an error of judgement and YES that includes ALO...Geeeeez.... :roll

[Greig]

Obviously you have not read all the posts and points of view, what I am sayin Greig is that ALonso ASK HIS TEAM what to do as ALL DRIVERS DO over the radio... THE TEAM made an error of judgement and YES that includes ALO...Geeeeez.... :roll

Lewis never had to ask at Spa 08 :-) geeeeezo roll eyyeeees, I am just wondering why Alonso needed to ask at all, sure then the team are to blame, but surely Alonso is clever enough to know he done wrong, no need to go to the team on the radio at all. It was very clear to everyone he had to give it back, and I bet you he knew it right away as well.

[NJB13]

Perhaps its my Ferrari colored glasses, but I really see a huge difference between Kimi/Lewis at Spa and Fernando/Kubica at Silverstone.
The key is Kimi is always clearly in front. About half a car length as they exit the first right-hander and increases to 3/4 of a car length ahead of Lewis before they even reach the 2nd corner (lefty). Your entitled to the line if your in front or, if your on the inside.
In the case of Fernando/Kubica Fernando was in front as they were at the apex of the first corner (left) and was never headed by Kubica from that point. Alonso had the inside line and was in front (albeit only just) for the next corner (righty) - so IMHO he was, entitled to the line.
I think these pictures show what I mean.

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/spankyham/AlonsoKubica2.jpg

Also, I don't agree that a driver is entitled to squeeze another driver off the track if they are side by side. It is in fact against article 16.1 of the
2010 F1 SPORTING REGULATIONS (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/65EE8F15945D0941C12576C7005308AE/$FILE/1-2010%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2023-06-2010.pdf)

A comparable incident I recall is when Senna tried to move over against Prost heading down the straight (can't remember where) he moved over while they were side by side, but, in the end he stopped squeezing leaving Prost just enough room - you could actually see him jink back to his left to leave him just enough room - which was all that Prost needed - on that occasion.

[Greig]

MS pushed Massa off in Canada breaking his wing, it's fine it seems, I don't think Kubica done anything most drivers wouldn't do, it does not really matter who is in front or not, Alonso could not make the corner and should have either backed off and slotted in behind Kubica or do what he did but give the place back right away then try again in a few corners.

[Hornet]

In defense of Alonso (the same guy I dislike not too long ago before he came to ferrari :-D ), the situation wasn't clear cut at all, as proven by the photo above as well as Ferrari's team being indecisive themself. Even Ferrari had to refer back to the FIA stewards for clarification.

Alonso at that time is driving and there's hardly any spare time for him to think back and ponder what he should do. The only think he's focus is on is the road ahead of him. If the team are not able to decide, then I can understand that it would have been harder for Alonso to ponder what just happened and if he should gave the position back.

The stewards themself took even longer, but they work in mysterious ways anyway

[Greig]

He was clearly off track, how can it not be clear? seriously

[Tifosi]

He had to go off track to complete the passing manoeuvre and he didn't "have" the corner as is clearly shown in Spanky's stills (regardless of how many cms "ahead" he was at the time) so it was an illegal pass.

Regardless of perceived mitigating circumstances, it was pretty unlikely that he would have been "let off" given the evidence to the viewer of the TV footage (in or out of our garage :-??)

[slither]

There is no doubt that it was an illegal pass, this is what we have to admit.

[NJB13]

G&T (Gin & Tonic??), I can see your positions, and, as I have said earlier, I have to recognize that hindsight makes you both right. But, I don't think it's quite as cut and dry as you paint. Although G doesn't think being behind or in front matters, well, I was thinking about it and I thought of the Massa/Hamilton contact at Fuji and the Heiki/Webber contact at Belgium that seem to show that being in front and having the racing line is pretty important.
T has explained that Fernando "had" to go off track - and I guess I don't quite agree with that, I think if Kubica had left room he could have completed the pass on track - if you look at the line he was on, his tyres are almost straight lined to take the corner and keep at least 2 wheels on track (frames 4 & 5) or only a degree to achieve staying on track completely, so he didn't have to turn from there to take the corner so speed can't have been the issue. If you watch the video carefully you can see that he actually jerks to the right responding to Kubica coming across onto his line, and its that jink that takes him off track.
I also think article 16.1 is definitely in play - I don't see how it can be that you can insist the going-off-track rule (article 30.3) must be honored yet 16.1 is acceptable to ignore.
It worried me that CW told us that it would be investigated after the race - then - quite a long time after, he decides to investigate and penalize with a drive-through. Why would he do that? It's very unprofessional to say one thing to a team then acting contrary to that. Probably another demonstration that CW is out of his depths and not up to the job. One thing he did achieve by changing what he told us and applying the drive-through was that he made it "non-appeal-able".
As I said, the stewards have made your view right - maybe one day we can discuss this with models and Ferrari flags over a pint or ten

[Brakefade]

G&T (Gin & Tonic??), I can see your positions, and, as I have said earlier, I have to recognize that hindsight makes you both right. But, I don't think it's quite as cut and dry as you paint. Although G doesn't think being behind or in front matters, well, I was thinking about it and I thought of the Massa/Hamilton contact at Fuji and the Heiki/Webber contact at Belgium that seem to show that being in front and having the racing line is pretty important.
T has explained that Fernando "had" to go off track - and I guess I don't quite agree with that, I think if Kubica had left room he could have completed the pass on track - if you look at the line he was on, his tyres are almost straight lined to take the corner and keep at least 2 wheels on track (frames 4 & 5) or only a degree to achieve staying on track completely, so he didn't have to turn from there to take the corner so speed can't have been the issue. If you watch the video carefully you can see that he actually jerks to the right responding to Kubica coming across onto his line, and its that jink that takes him off track.
I also think article 16.1 is definitely in play - I don't see how it can be that you can insist the going-off-track rule (article 30.3) must be honored yet 16.1 is acceptable to ignore.
It worried me that CW told us that it would be investigated after the race - then - quite a long time after, he decides to investigate and penalize with a drive-through. Why would he do that? It's very unprofessional to say one thing to a team then acting contrary to that. Probably another demonstration that CW is out of his depths and not up to the job. One thing he did achieve by changing what he told us and applying the drive-through was that he made it "non-appeal-able".
As I said, the stewards have made your view right - maybe one day we can discuss this with models and Ferrari flags over a pint or ten

And don't forget the timing of the penalty. Was it coincidence that we got penalized just as the SC was deploy? And was it coincidence that they only decided to retrieve the debris that was on track, for several laps, right at the same time that they gave FA the penalty?

IMO it's time to replace all the officials with people of different nationalities, not just British.

[Tifosi]

G&T (Gin & Tonic??), I can see your positions, and, as I have said earlier, I have to recognize that hindsight makes you both right. But, I don't think it's quite as cut and dry as you paint. Although G doesn't think being behind or in front matters, well, I was thinking about it and I thought of the Massa/Hamilton contact at Fuji and the Heiki/Webber contact at Belgium that seem to show that being in front and having the racing line is pretty important.
T has explained that Fernando "had" to go off track - and I guess I don't quite agree with that, I think if Kubica had left room he could have completed the pass on track - if you look at the line he was on, his tyres are almost straight lined to take the corner and keep at least 2 wheels on track (frames 4 & 5) or only a degree to achieve staying on track completely, so he didn't have to turn from there to take the corner so speed can't have been the issue. If you watch the video carefully you can see that he actually jerks to the right responding to Kubica coming across onto his line, and its that jink that takes him off track.

But Kubica didn't have to leave room did he? If you examine this with a fine tooth comb then you will always come up with mitigating circumstances and a justification for the the team you love - that's only natural. Unfortunately, based on the evidence in the timeframe that everyone had - Alonso didn't have the corner, he had to go off track cos RK was defending it (and it didn't look like he was defending it illegally when you look at the video in the timeframe that the stewards had either) so it was pretty clear that we were taking an uneccessary risk from that point forward by not giving back the place - and that was really the only thing that mattered as far as our day was concerned :-s



I also think article 16.1 is definitely in play - I don't see how it can be that you can insist the going-off-track rule (article 30.3) must be honored yet 16.1 is acceptable to ignore.
It worried me that CW told us that it would be investigated after the race - then - quite a long time after, he decides to investigate and penalize with a drive-through. Why would he do that? It's very unprofessional to say one thing to a team then acting contrary to that. Probably another demonstration that CW is out of his depths and not up to the job. One thing he did achieve by changing what he told us and applying the drive-through was that he made it "non-appeal-able".No-one's saying the punishment fit the crime Spanky. The debate here is not the crime or the punishment in fact - it's the fact that we kept on going when the watching world knew that we would most likely get knicked for the crime, which was avoidable.



As I said, the stewards have made your view right - maybe one day we can discuss this with models and Ferrari flags over a pint or tenthat would be fun :-) but it wouldn't make us any more right for not giving the place back and avoiding being penalised - regardless of whether or not we were justifiably guilty.

[NJB13]

But Kubica didn't have to leave room did he?
Simple yes/no question, in frame 4, was Fernando entitled to be where he was on the track at that time?
If the answer is yes, then why wouldn't article 16.1 apply?


that would be fun :-) but it wouldn't make us any more right for not giving the place back and avoiding being penalised - regardless of whether or not we were justifiably guilty.
Agree it would definitely be fun :-) especially if G was shouting

[Tifosi]

Simple yes/no question, in frame 4, was Fernando entitled to be where he was on the track at that time?
If the answer is yes, then why wouldn't article 16.1 apply?


Think of it this way dude. You're going down the pitlane minding your own business when you suddenly realise Lewis is up to his old tricks again and he's side-by-side with you, only he's actually driving down the pits as usual - taking out the air guns out as he goes. Are you going to move over and give him room or not? ;-)

Seriously though, the point I was making was that the stewards made a decision in real-time and based on the evidence available, not after a frame by frame analysis and close scrutiny to the rulebook. I'm not saying it's fair, I'm just saying why we should have had the brains to give back the place in the first place.

[NJB13]

Think of it this way dude. You're going down the pitlane minding your own business when you suddenly realise Lewis is up to his old tricks again and he's side-by-side with you, only he's actually driving down the pits as usual - taking out the air guns out as he goes. Are you going to move over and give him room or not? ;-)

Only in the case in question, he was on the actual track and beside Kubica, which is a far call from being in the pit lane. My point was he has a right to be on the track in a position that is not taken by another car. When you think about it, every passing maneuver entails getting beside the car your passing at some stage, and there are no spots on a track (excluding the pit lane :-) ) where you are not allowed to be beside another car.


Seriously though, the point I was making was that the stewards made a decision in real-time and based on the evidence available, not after a frame by frame analysis and close scrutiny to the rulebook. I'm not saying it's fair, I'm just saying why we should have had the brains to give back the place in the first place.

Again I concede that you are right, in that the stewards made the decision they did, and if we followed your thought-line, we might have avoided the penalty.
Having conceded that, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that the stewards actually do know the rules by-heart and off the top of their heads - they are supposedly stewards. And perhaps this is root of our teams frustration. Also, the real-time aspect of the stewards wasn't really that real time - you do know how long it took them to put up that they were investigating. And lastly, the rules stated that they should have waited til after the race and CW did actually tell our team that they would leave it til after the race.

We really do need to get stewards and directors who are at least competent and then there should be an on-going investing in training and honing their skills - put them through simulators etc. We expect the highest standards from drivers - look at what they have to go through on a regular basis to prove their skills and fitness to drive - there is probably a case to say stewards should be of a high quality standard.

[Tifosi]

Only in the case in question, he was on the actual track and beside Kubica, which is a far call from being in the pit lane. My point was he has a right to be on the track in a position that is not taken by another car.1 When you think about it, every passing maneuver entails getting beside the car your passing at some stage, and there are no spots on a track (excluding the pit lane :-) ) where you are not allowed to be beside another car.



Again I concede that you are right, in that the stewards made the decision they did, and if we followed your thought-line, we might have avoided the penalty.2
Having conceded that, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that the stewards actually do know the rules by-heart and off the top of their heads - they are supposedly stewards. And perhaps this is root of our teams frustration. Also, the real-time aspect of the stewards wasn't really that real time - you do know how long it took them to put up that they were investigating. And lastly, the rules stated that they should have waited til after the race and CW did actually tell our team that they would leave it til after the race.3

We really do need to get stewards and directors who are at least competent and then there should be an on-going investing in training and honing their skills - put them through simulators etc. We expect the highest standards from drivers - look at what they have to go through on a regular basis to prove their skills and fitness to drive - there is probably a case to say stewards should be of a high quality standard.


1. Again we go back to the point that Alonso did not clearly have the corner on the available evidence (under which the decision was made) so Kubica closed the door. At the very most it was 50/50, not even considering Alonso going off track.

2. Followed the line of thought of the majority of people watching it happen on the TV - which is what the stewards saw.

3. This is really just to prove a point of injustice though dude. It doesn't actually get away from the fact that the situation could have been avoided with a little obvious risk management.

[Alonsomaniac]

Now we look at it afterwards and from all sorts of different angles it is clear that the move was illegal.
But how much did Fernando see when in these split seconds he was working hard to keep the car under control? Could he see exactly where Kubica was compared to his own car? Who was in front when they were in the corner?
I think when Fernando came back on track in front of Kubica he had serious doubts about the move but he also did not want to give the position back if he didn't have to.
So he did what he had to do, he asked the team. Had they told him to give the place back I suppose he would have done so.
So in my opinion Fernando made the first mistake while trying to overtake Kubica, but he was not sure , so he asked the team which then made the scond mistake which in the end cost Fernando a good result.
Although I must say that Charlie and his companions also made a mess of the situation which highly contributed to Alonso's misfortune and anger.