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vcs316
20th July 2010, 08:45
Ferrari wants a rule change in the wake of Fernando Alonso's drive-through penalty imposed during the recent British Grand Prix.

The Italian team criticised the time it took for race director Charlie Whiting to answer a query about whether Alonso, who cut a corner, should hand back the position to Robert Kubica.

Ferrari claims it took the FIA almost two minutes to respond, by which time giving the place back to Kubica would have been complicated.

"We will discuss an amendment to the regulations: if the race directors are not involved within 3-4 corners afterwards, the manoeuvre is considered to be correct," team boss Stefano Domenicali said in an interview with La Stampa.

Following Ferrari's furious criticism of the safety car rules after the preceding Valencia race, the regulations were tweaked at Silverstone.

When mischievously asked whether the rules need changing after every race, Domenicali smiled: "It's a very complex sport."

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=378399

Greig
20th July 2010, 08:56
Oh come on Stefano get over it :-) 3 or 4 corners? what if the tv camera's don't pick it up....

mad_ani
20th July 2010, 09:30
It is indeed a very short interval to get the attention of the stewards/RDir's attentions..3-4 corners is a max of 15 -20 sec.....which is simply not possible in a situation such as Valencia..where entire race control's attention was diverted to getting the drivers involved in the collision safely out..and it took ages for Charlie whiting and team to get that airel footage to penalise LH.its difficult when multiple incidents occur...

Demanding a rule change after an incident makes the sport look less serious.(the SC rules have changed twice so far.)...Why not simulate every scenario once the sporting rules are written so we can avoid all these dramas...

Tifosi
20th July 2010, 09:31
Not even remotely feasible. This is getting embarassing! :oops

I know the media court this kind of stuff but firstly it makes us sound like we're the only team that ever get decisions against us and that every time it happens we need a new rule and secondly it's flavour of the month debate.

The last time this was an issue was the race after Spa 08 and then it all calmed down again. If we are seriously planning on making lots more off-road overtaking manouevres then maybe we should clear up our internal protocols for dealing with them in real time instead of pinning down the terms & conditions of the "get out of jail free" card from the FIA after we've made them.

Hermann
20th July 2010, 10:08
This place is beginning to sound like an anti-Ferrari-forum.

FFFerrari
20th July 2010, 10:19
While the need to get a clearer rule for the Safety Car was valid, this is getting silly. Yes, it's a complex sport so the stewards need some time to make up the rulings. The stewards usually roll back the tape and watch the incidents from a couple of angles before making their minds and this doesn't happen in 20 seconds. DOM is going to be the laughing stock of the pits if he doesn't shut his mouth soon about the rules.

IF this change would go through, we would see a lot of "grey-area" passing, cutting apexes, etc. and the stewards would have their hands more than full trying to locate the infractions fast enough.

Greig
20th July 2010, 10:33
This place is beginning to sound like an anti-Ferrari-forum.

So you think 3-4 corners is a reasonable time frame for the stewards to get involved?

aroutis
20th July 2010, 10:35
While I think 3 -4 corners is indeed extreme , perhaps what should be done is that there should be indeed an amendment like if there's another car between the cars in dispute , the incident will be examined after the race.

That makes sense, more than the 3-4 laps thing. That or perhaps, if there's no invocation of the stewards after 1 lap, then indeed the move is considered legal.

aroutis
20th July 2010, 10:37
Question, is it possible something is lost in the translation and he meant 3-4 laps?

Hermann
20th July 2010, 10:52
Domenicali said 'involved'. Not 'decided'. And i tend to agree with him. Everything is happening so fast in the races, and the stewards react in a way that you could think they are still working with pen and paper.

Greig
20th July 2010, 10:53
Domenicali said 'involved'. Not 'decided'. And i tend to agree with him. Everything is happening so fast in the races, and the stewards react in a way that you could think they are still working with pen and paper.

So if the TV camera misses someone cutting the corner, passing 3/4 cars, then does 3 more corners, then its ok with you? come off it LOL 3 or 4 corners is clearly not enough time for race stewards to see everything.

slither
20th July 2010, 10:56
Oh come on Stefano get over it :-) 3 or 4 corners? what if the tv camera's don't pick it up....

+1

Stefano should concentrate on his work instead of keeping his mind busy with this. May be he is trying to cover his failures with this. Who knows...

He said "We have spent lots of time on F-duct", you are spending much more on a past race steward decision.

slither
20th July 2010, 10:58
This place is beginning to sound like an anti-Ferrari-forum.

I can't bear winning championships depending on unfair advantages. May be other Ferrari fans in this palce, either.

Hermann
20th July 2010, 11:35
I can't bear winning championships depending on unfair advantages. May be other Ferrari fans in this palce, either.

I don't understand what you mean. Ferrari is not asking for a rule change for Ferrari, but for everyone.

Greig
20th July 2010, 11:45
I don't understand what you mean. Ferrari is not asking for a rule change for Ferrari, but for everyone.

But why does the rule need changed?

Silent Bob
20th July 2010, 11:50
I think what we've seen in the past 2 races is that there needs to be direct contact with the stewards rather than first to Whiting and then to the stewards. Let's not forget that they do have many more videos and camera angles than what we see on tv. If they can make a quicker decision, it'd be best for every team.. now 3-4 corners may be more than what is feasible... but I do agree that waiting 20 mins or 3-4 laps can in some situations dramatically affect a race. I also think there needs to be more continuity in penalties... I still don't see how 9 drivers can be given a 5 sec penalty and 1 driver a drive through that ruins his race... somehow that doesn't seem logical.

Greig
20th July 2010, 11:55
Or the teams should have some sort of self governance and know what is right and wrong, Alonso firstly should have known he overtook off track and moved, and when he didn't our team should have told him to give it back, then there would be no need to go to Charlie, we can't just blame the FIA and say the rules stink when clearly we had the opportunity to do the right thing and not cost us too badly.

Stefano is just deflecting blame, when the blame lies firmly on our doorstep for what happened at Silverstone.

Kingdom Hearts
20th July 2010, 12:45
Stefano you are a silly man, 3 or 4 corners then the manoeuvre is considered to be correct? :lol. Why not?, next time when someone rob a bank, if the police don't catch the robber in one hour, he will be free and declared not guilty.

Silent Bob
20th July 2010, 12:47
Alonso's move on Kubica was questionable and he should have given the place back right away. But in light of what's happened at Valencia... and even in Silverstone where Ferrari were looking for some guidance... it should be available in a decent amount of time. Too much can happen in a race if every decision from the stewards is going to take 6-7 laps or 20 min. Teams need an immediate response. Why wait to penalise 9 drivers after the race in Valencia? Why weren't they all given drive throughs right away? I think the team sshould be able to contact the stewards directly rather than go through Whiting, who then reviews that act, and then refers it to the stewards.

Hornet
20th July 2010, 12:57
I agree that 3 or 4 turns is somewhat outside the realm of possibility, unless they let a supercomputer make all decisions :-D
Actually that wouldn't be a bad idea, at least a computer is objective, it can even calculated the advantage gain and hand down the proper punishment :-P

Maybe aroutis is right, he actually meant 3-4 laps?
I see no reason why the stewards cannot make a decision after 4 laps. If they take longer than that, they should perhaps review their own procedure first.

Salvador Dali
20th July 2010, 13:31
Or the teams should have some sort of self governance and know what is right and wrong, Alonso firstly should have known he overtook off track and moved, and when he didn't our team should have told him to give it back, then there would be no need to go to Charlie, we can't just blame the FIA and say the rules stink when clearly we had the opportunity to do the right thing and not cost us too badly.

Stefano is just deflecting blame, when the blame lies firmly on our doorstep for what happened at Silverstone.

+1
I think that what you have written is what most of us (Ferrari fans) think.
Oh please Stefano just stop with this moaning and get on with the racing! I should think that improving the car is far more important.

Have a nice day!

ferrari4life
20th July 2010, 14:18
thinks we should have stewarts that are dedicated to penalties and not involved with safety cars and track safety

RedDragon
20th July 2010, 16:40
The stewards have made some bad decisions this year, but so have we. Before we address the inconsistancies with the stewards, we need to stand up and take responsibility for our own actions. Ultimately, the stewards are in control of the decisions made during the race. The more we whine about the stewards, the happier they will be to correct our mistakes. We can't go back and change the outcomes of the races already ran. Instead of wasting time debating what is in the past, the team needs to be spending all their energy focusing on improving the outcome of future races.

REDARMYSOJA
20th July 2010, 16:58
But why does the rule need changed?

I don't know as though the rule needs to be changed, but perhaps the punishment does. Give the spot back or you will be dropped one position after the race. Or if they really want to be tough, you'll lose all the spots you gained after the illegal pass.

And they do need to make a decision sooner. The 3 or 4 corners is absurd, but around three laps should be enough, or the pass stands. They need to allow the driver to give the spot back to the car immediatly behind them also, not the actual car they passed.

aroutis
20th July 2010, 17:15
Or the teams should have some sort of self governance and know what is right and wrong, Alonso firstly should have known he overtook off track and moved, and when he didn't our team should have told him to give it back, then there would be no need to go to Charlie, we can't just blame the FIA and say the rules stink when clearly we had the opportunity to do the right thing and not cost us too badly.

Stefano is just deflecting blame, when the blame lies firmly on our doorstep for what happened at Silverstone.

There's no such thing as self-governance in F1 , that's why there's the need for FiA, the teams are simply too antagonistic.

Greig
20th July 2010, 17:22
Off course there is, most of the FOTA things are self governed and not FIA directed

Suzie
20th July 2010, 19:17
"We will discuss an amendment to the regulations: if the race directors are not involved within 3-4 corners afterwards, the manoeuvre is considered to be correct," team boss Stefano Domenicali said in an interview with La Stampa.


Crazy idea. What if something happened that was to the detriment of OUR drivers, and they got away with it because of this rule.
Don't know what they're thinking. :crazy

slither
20th July 2010, 19:50
I don't understand what you mean. Ferrari is not asking for a rule change for Ferrari, but for everyone.

What I mean is Stefano spends so much time on this thing and what he wants is absurd. He makes Ferrari fans embarrassed (at least me). So it is normal for people to talk against Stefano's statement. This does not make this place an anti Ferrari place.

aroutis
20th July 2010, 23:18
Off course there is, most of the FOTA things are self governed and not FIA directed

Deciding whether running KERS or not next year is one thing, but deciding things like that is another, if they could do this, what'd be the use for having the governing body in the first place?

Silent Bob
21st July 2010, 00:42
Truthfully, I don't see anyting wrong with asking that decisions which can affect a race be made quicker and with more certainty. We saw 2 races in which stewards decisions affected a race, and in those races if the decisions were made quicker, then the penalties would have had the same severity... not in one case where a drive thru really wasn't a penalty and in another case a driver ended up last. 3-4 corners is unreasonable.. but why should teams have to ask Whiting his opinion? Why can't they go staight to the stewards and get a decision within a lap or two? Better yet they need to have more uniformity.. Lewis runs out of fuel & parks his car after getting pole and doesn't recieve a penalty, passes a sc and they wait till he's free & clear and then issue his penalty. 9 drivers get 5 sec penalty after the race (not even in the rule book). Alonso deserved his penalty and paid for it more dearly than the others. I can agree with SD if he would ask that if a penalty isn't awarded within a few laps.. then it will be reviewed after the race and the team can get on with the race.. also a drivethru should need to be taken as soon as its been given, not 3 laps after.

mad_ani
21st July 2010, 00:57
Truthfully, I don't see anyting wrong with asking that decisions which can affect a race be made quicker and with more certainty. We saw 2 races in which stewards decisions affected a race, and in those races if the decisions were made quicker, then the penalties would have had the same severity... not in one case where a drive thru really wasn't a penalty and in another case a driver ended up last. 3-4 corners is unreasonable.. but why should teams have to ask Whiting his opinion? Why can't they go staight to the stewards and get a decision within a lap or two? Better yet they need to have more uniformity.. Lewis runs out of fuel & parks his car after getting pole and doesn't recieve a penalty, passes a sc and they wait till he's free & clear and then issue his penalty. 9 drivers get 5 sec penalty after the race (not even in the rule book). Alonso deserved his penalty and paid for it more dearly than the others. I can agree with SD if he would ask that if a penalty isn't awarded within a few laps.. then it will be reviewed after the race and the team can get on with the race.. also a drivethru should need to be taken as soon as its been given, not 3 laps after.

Mclaren did receive a $10k penalty...not Lewis...It is not a driver's job to fuel his car. His team did that mistake (?)...and were punished accordingly. But again, it can be argued that pit stop mistakes or unsafe releases, the drivers are usually penalized and not the teams....

There is an international sporting code which the stewards are free to follow...

Drive thru's cannot be taken under SC conditions or when pits are closed.3 laps is sufficient time for someone to serve the penalty.

killer
21st July 2010, 02:02
You can't just keep changing the rules--more so changing them to more complex ones; you'll just open up more holes that can be exploited. One would think that at this level drivers and teams know what they can and can't get away with.

NJB13
21st July 2010, 02:44
Is it possible some of us are reading far too much into the quotes from SD?
IMHO, if you take the quote at face value it isn't impractical. If you add that this is an ambit claim prior to a meeting, then you'd have to say it's well put.
I'll draw attention to two clear observations that can be made:-
1) 3-4 corners only applies if the race directors are not involved
2) if the cameras don't catch it - er a bit of common sense here please - there is the other driver - he does have a radio - remember how fast Kubica was on the radio? If 4 corners pass and a driver or his team haven't sent a message then, they probably need a rocket up em :-)
I think I can see a logic behind this that I like. All SD is doing is ensuring if the Race Directors and stewards don't get involved promptly, then it will be part of the appeals process after the race - an excellent result - where all parties can calmly put their case, all the time in the world can be given to review the matter and a consistent (wouldn't that be great!!) penalty could be applied.
Basically what I think SD is trying to do is to limit the time the current batch of incompetent stewards and directors can mess things up in :-)
For me, this is a clever starting position to go into a meeting with.

killer
21st July 2010, 08:36
I see what you're saying, mate, and I even agree that it is right to ask for a set time for race officials to react to an incident. Where I'm coming from is that, most of the time, there are easier and less complex solutions to events like last Sunday's... and that we can't keep asking for rule adjustment each time we don't like the results we get. :-)

Tifosi
21st July 2010, 08:47
I see what you're saying, mate, and I even agree that it is right to ask for a set time for race officials to react to an incident. Where I'm coming from is that, most of the time, there are easier and less complex solutions to events like last Sunday's... and that we can't keep asking for rule adjustment each time we don't like the results we get. :-)

+1 :thumb

bang on

XXX132
22nd July 2010, 04:56
So if the TV camera misses someone cutting the corner, passing 3/4 cars, then does 3 more corners, then its ok with you? come off it LOL 3 or 4 corners is clearly not enough time for race stewards to see everything.

The driver being overtaken would be on the radio fast enough... if the stewards are too busy they could always issue a post race 5 sec penalty... ;)

NJB13
22nd July 2010, 05:52
The driver being overtaken would be on the radio fast enough... if the stewards are too busy they could always issue a post race 5 sec penalty... ;)

Actually, under SD's proposal, I don't think the stewards could issue a penalty, and I think that's what SD is maneuvering for. My interpretation is that he is limiting the time that the stewards can take action. Either it happens immediately after the event, within 3 or 4 corners or, it can only be dealt with through the appeals process, which would be after the race and would ensure time to come to the correct decision without pressure of time and with the inclusion of those effected and with the ability to appeal higher against any decision that is poor/bad.

Only one thing is for sure - we need to come up with some big points in the next 2 races. We do that and everyone will forget the bad decisions. Winning will make it all better :-)

flam147
22nd July 2010, 09:09
how can we have wheel to wheel racing when all the car being overtaken has to do is push the overtaking car off track?

NJB13
22nd July 2010, 09:31
how can we have wheel to wheel racing when all the car being overtaken has to do is push the overtaking car off track?

I tried to point that out before, but the general consensus seems to be that is true! Which I just find hard to equate when there is a specific rule against it - but, I guess, after Silverstone, every car is free to just move over as soon as another car gets next to you and wait till they go off track. It seems some Russian Roulette at 300Klms has been invited into F1.

Greig
22nd July 2010, 09:33
If the roles were reversed would we not be unhappy if our driver did not close the door and gave away a position so easily?

mad_ani
22nd July 2010, 10:33
how can we have wheel to wheel racing when all the car being overtaken has to do is push the overtaking car off track?


Maybe if u did watch Silverstone, and saw How Rosberg overtook jamie A, you will appreciate the wheel to wheel racing..

It was harder for the merc to pass the Torro rosso, but Rosberg did execute the overtake very well IMO..Also Vettel took on Schumi, FI's as well..

Maybe you are mentioning Alonso-kubica's incident...Kubica held on to his racing line and closed the door on Alonso, defending his position

:-)

Tifosi
22nd July 2010, 10:42
I tried to point that out before, but the general consensus seems to be that is true! Which I just find hard to equate when there is a specific rule against it - but, I guess, after Silverstone, every car is free to just move over as soon as another car gets next to you and wait till they go off track. It seems some Russian Roulette at 300Klms has been invited into F1.

You keep suggesting that Alonso clearly had the corner and therefore Kubica pushed him off. It wasn't even close to being clear. I think you also have to accept that frame by frame analysis is not the same as real-time perception.

NJB13
23rd July 2010, 09:42
If the roles were reversed would we not be unhappy if our driver did not close the door and gave away a position so easily?

I wouldn't want us to push another car off the track - we should only do that if we clearly owned the line.

NJB13
23rd July 2010, 10:13
You keep suggesting that Alonso clearly had the corner and therefore Kubica pushed him off. It wasn't even close to being clear. I think you also have to accept that frame by frame analysis is not the same as real-time perception.

What I think is that, in real time, it was impossible to know who had the corner. Given that, and the admission by CW that he wasn't sure and that he could see SD's point, he was obliged, under the existing rules, to decide after the race. That's why I understand SD's decisions and action and can't critisize it. His only mistake was to expect that the race director/stewards would know the rules and follow them. As I said before thought, you can definitely mount a case that SD should have realised that they are not competent and could not be relied upon to make reasonable decisions.
That's also why I think SD's proposed change is reasonable, I don't think he is trying to change another rule because we got bitten, he is trying to limit the time the steward can make irractional/bad decisions. There would always be the appeals process after the race.

justjesper
24th July 2010, 16:22
So if the TV camera misses someone cutting the corner, passing 3/4 cars, then does 3 more corners, then its ok with you? come off it LOL 3 or 4 corners is clearly not enough time for race stewards to see everything.

Must say that I actually totally agree with Greig on this one. ( I know, it must be a chock :-) )

I think Stefano is encourage the FIA to work on there response time. I'm not sure but it looks like there now are more people that has to take a look at everything and it looks to take more time for them to make decisions.
The 3-4 corners must be an example and not the rule. But yes the response time has to be faster.

hogo
24th July 2010, 16:44
This place is beginning to sound like an anti-Ferrari-forum.

qft

Tifosi stfu, you aren't worth of that name. If its embarrassing to be a Ferrari fan then why are you bothering? But seriously this is our team boss talking, he knows better than you or Greig or anyone else in here of whats possible and what is not. If 3-4 corners is enough then its enough. Look for example at basketball or any other sport. Ref take seconds to decide if there was a foul play or not. There are only 24 cars on the track, load of cameras, bunch of race directors and still they can't make a call in a reasonable time frame.

Greig
24th July 2010, 17:03
LOL anti-Ferrari because I don't agree with every word Stefano says....heard it all now :-D

Yes they could stop the race while they look at the video evidence like in other sports, good idea that :-)

Suzie
24th July 2010, 17:07
Being objective doesn't make you any less of a fan.

hogo
24th July 2010, 17:13
LOL anti-Ferrari because I don't agree with every word Stefano says....heard it all now :-D

I can't remember when you agreed with him or even said anything positive about him... And words like "Stefano must go" what that suppose to mean? Yeah you got angry cos stewards ripped us off in Valencia and so you said them but you keep on blaming Stefano for every mistake race Stewards made. Pretty much the same outlook is in the British press. So you rather believe what they say than Ferrari team boss am I right?

hogo
24th July 2010, 17:16
Being objective doesn't make you any less of a fan.

It's picking sides actually cos there are no hard facts on neither side therefore you can't be objective. And look, Greig, Tifosi and some other so called "fans" what side they chose. Clearly not Ferraris.

Greig
24th July 2010, 17:16
I can't remember when you agreed with him or even said anything positive about him... And words like "Stefano must go" what that suppose to mean? Yeah you got angry cos stewards ripped us off in Valencia and so you said them but you keep on blaming Stefano for every mistake race Stewards made. Pretty much the same outlook is in the British press. So you rather believe what they say than Ferrari team boss am I right?

LOL I said that when it looked like we had made a mess up of calling our drivers in, I said sorry when it became clear, maybe you missed that part....if you want to baa to every word Stefano says then be my guest, but it won't make you any more of a Ferrari fan. Stewards never ripped us off when I said that either, so don't make things up :-) I don't think I have blamed Stefano for anything that is not painfully obvious, such as sitting in the pits while the rest lap and we get put out of qualifying, for not telling Alonso to give back the position to Kubica.....you say Stefano knows better than anyone, clearly not....he is not infallible.

Tifosi
24th July 2010, 17:25
qft

Tifosi stfu, you aren't worth of that name. If its embarrassing to be a Ferrari fan then why are you bothering? But seriously this is our team boss talking, he knows better than you or Greig or anyone else in here of whats possible and what is not. If 3-4 corners is enough then its enough. Look for example at basketball or any other sport. Ref take seconds to decide if there was a foul play or not. There are only 24 cars on the track, load of cameras, bunch of race directors and still they can't make a call in a reasonable time frame.

what are you on about? Chill out and think!

Why not answer some of the concerns raised about how it could not realistically work as a solution instead of coming out with assumptions about other people and laughable personal attacks. .....oh, and misquotes aswell :roll

Suzie
24th July 2010, 18:32
I didn't realise we were all in a competition to be the BIGGEST FERRARI FAN EVAH.

REDARMYSOJA
24th July 2010, 18:39
I didn't realise we were all in a competition to be the BIGGEST FERRARI FAN EVAH.

Maybe we need an FIA clarification on this.

Tifosi
24th July 2010, 18:42
Maybe we need an FIA clarification on this.

:lol

...and some sort of rule to make sure it's whoever thinks it should be them! ;-)