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steelstallions
25th July 2010, 14:33
I was so enjoying this race, Mclaren many seconds behind and panting like an asthmatic pensioner chasing a bus and RB giving it all and not having it all their way.

Then they tell Massa to give his place to Alonso. This is one race with it being a year since the same race weekend nearly killed Massa, Ferrari could have shone like an all conquering team with a big middle finger up at all the people who wrote them off.

Instead I am left frustrated though I am happy the car has finally reached what we thought it might after the first race.

Agron
25th July 2010, 14:44
And by the season end, we loose the WDC to Hamilton by 6 points after he manages to escape without penalties overtaking another 3 times the safety car and making Button move over for him twice. What a sweet feeling that would be. :-)

Ken
25th July 2010, 14:45
Like you I was realy enjoying the race, it was beginning to feel like the old glory days were returning :-)

The controversy at the end of the race and feelings it has left us fans with has already been made clear in another thread.

All I wish to add is :-

MASSA WAS OUR TRUE HERO TODAY.

I hope and trust that all the Alonso fans in here can and will appreciate what Filipe did for the team today and be generous enough to Thank him

Curbs
25th July 2010, 14:47
The way Massa made Ferrari look today shows what a teamplayer he is.
I would fire him for less. Now we could face a penalty. Thank you Massa,
great job.

pesquisa_2004
25th July 2010, 14:55
Ferrari is taking away my will to follow F1

Ken
25th July 2010, 14:56
The way Massa made Ferrari look today shows what a teamplayer he is.
I would fire him for less. Now we could face a penalty. Thank you Massa,
great job.

Excuse me Massa made us look bad ?? How about the Team Radio conversation that we were all entreated to during the race.

The one who made us look bad was the person who made the decision for the order to be given. Push the blame were it belongs not onto a driver.

Agron
25th July 2010, 14:56
Like you I was realy enjoying the race, it was beginning to feel like the old glory days were returning :-)

The controversy at the end of the race and feelings it has left us fans with has already been made clear in another thread.

All I wish to add is :-

MASSA WAS OUR TRUE HERO TODAY.

I hope and trust that all the Alonso fans in here can and will appreciate what Filipe did for the team today and be generous enough to Thank himHe earns 15 million dollars or more each year just from the team, he likely earns a lot too from commercials and the like, in addition, at the start of the year he is given the car and the chances to win the WDC and write his name in History, something he was very close to doing in 2008; finally of course driving for Ferrari provides him fame and hero status amongst hundreds of thousands or even millions of people. 99% of the world population would do the most insane things to be in his situation today and do what he did, thus continuing to enjoy those benefits, hell, people kill others just for 15 minutes of bad fame.
No need to thank him really, he did his job, he did it very well but he just did his job.

BigRedOne
25th July 2010, 14:59
:wave

BigRedOne
25th July 2010, 14:59
Ferrari is taking away my will to follow F1

:wave

steelstallions
25th July 2010, 15:07
He earns 15 million dollars or more each year just from the team, he likely earns a lot too from commercials and the like, in addition, at the start of the year he is given the car and the chances to win the WDC and write his name in History, something he was very close to doing in 2008; finally of course driving for Ferrari provides him fame and hero status amongst hundreds of thousands or even millions of people. 99% of the world population would do the most insane things to be in his situation today and do what he did, thus continuing to enjoy those benefits, hell, people kill others just for 15 minutes of bad fame.
No need to thank him really, he did his job, he did it very well but he just did his job.

No way, Massa did VERY LITTLE to make the decision worse than it was.
The flaming team on the radio did the damage.
If they were more subtle about it or had a better way of telling him to move over, then it would not have been so bloody obvious it was about to happen.
If I had not heard that flagrant message to basically let Alonso by and had only just seen the move and nothing else, it would have been different, we accept the team comes first.
Massa, unlike that sack of manure Barrichello, followed the order immediately 15 laps before the end. Unlike Rubins who left it just before the finishing line and cried like a girl on the podium, embarrassing the team, making MS make it even worse by being fined for putting him on the podium and generating all the venom against the team.
This time the team are to blame for fans feeling ill at the decision and the competition calling for our blood for breaking FIA rules

Silent Bob
25th July 2010, 15:08
No. I tink at this stage the decision was the right one. The problem is there are too many people who are airing grievances in the open. There was no need for Smedley to say what he did over the air and no need for Massa to sulk in the post race interview.. the time for that is after in the motorhome away from the media. There was nothing unprofessional in what Domenicalli did.. it was Massa and his engineer that acted like children. They are professionals and should act like it. If this costs Ferrari their points or positions, then it'd be time to look for another #2 driver. Every driver knows if he's trailing in points he might be asked to move over, and most are professional about it.. Massa was acting like that other Brazilian, Barrichello. Shame on him.

Ken
25th July 2010, 15:12
What ever earns and hopes for in terms of immortality and fame.
He still has the same desire as every other driver out there, To win a WDC, It is obvious from his reactions post race he had not expected to get that call.
Even more demoralising for him now is that there will never be a chance for a WDC while he is with Ferrari (and for that I feel sorry for Filipe )

One of the reasons I have followed Ferrari for the last 40+ years was that the WCC was far more important than the WDC to them. As the drivers in the last few years are more closely matched it has become harder to call who is No 1 and 2 and as such we have seen the emergence of drivers being contracted as 1 and 2, Now we have drivers of very equal abilities in at least 3 teams this notional idea of 1 and 2 is becoming outdated. So lets get back to the WCC is the goal and who ever is the WDC let that be sorted out on the track without any interference PLease.

Agron
25th July 2010, 15:19
No way, Massa did NOTHING to make the decision worse than it was.
The flaming team on the radio did the damage.
If they were more subtle about it or had a better way of telling him to move over, then it would not have been so bloody obvious it was about to happen.
If I had not heard that flagrant message to basically let Alonso by and had only just seen the move and nothing else, it would have been different, we accept the team comes first.
Massa, unlike that sack of manure Barrichello, followed the order immediately 15 laps before the end. Unlike Rubins who left it just before the finishing line and cried like a girl on the podium, embarrassing the team, making MS make it even worse by being fined for putting him on the podium and generating all the venom against the team.
This time the team are to blame for fans feeling ill at the decision and the competition calling for our blood for breaking FIA rulesI think you were quoting someone else ;).

IMO you are right, there should be some proper codes for this kind of thing as other teams have used this season, the way they said it made it absolutely obvious for fans, Smedly and Domenicalli saying sorry and congratulating on the radio wasn't perfect either as that's something better left for behind closed doors, although it was necessary for them to calm Felipe down before the press conference and podium ceremony to act his part, these guys are racing for two hours full of adrenalyne so they probably need that psychological help.
I don't think Massa did bad, maybe he could have done it in a less obvious way, but he wasn't happy about it obviously and the team radio had already made it clear, so what's the point?

Silent Bob
25th July 2010, 15:24
What ever earns and hopes for in terms of immortality and fame.
He still has the same desire as every other driver out there, To win a WDC, It is obvious from his reactions post race he had not expected to get that call.
Even more demoralising for him now is that there will never be a chance for a WDC while he is with Ferrari (and for that I feel sorry for Filipe )

One of the reasons I have followed Ferrari for the last 40+ years was that the WCC was far more important than the WDC to them. As the drivers in the last few years are more closely matched it has become harder to call who is No 1 and 2 and as such we have seen the emergence of drivers being contracted as 1 and 2, Now we have drivers of very equal abilities in at least 3 teams this notional idea of 1 and 2 is becoming outdated. So lets get back to the WCC is the goal and who ever is the WDC let that be sorted out on the track without any interference PLease.


Much as the WCC means a lot, more to most of us here as Ferrari supporters.. the WDC has more cache amongst a majority of fans, not to mention the matter of having the cars numbered as 1 & 2 next season. It is always better to win both titles, and there isn't anything wrong in asking the driver with the most points to finish ahead. It wasnt like Alonso was really slow. What disgusts me more is the complete lack of professionalism from Massa and his camp. They know that orders are illegal... why play games that could cost Ferrari serious points. 3 races in arow with controversy... getting tiring.

Agron
25th July 2010, 15:26
What ever earns and hopes for in terms of immortality and fame.
He still has the same desire as every other driver out there, To win a WDC, It is obvious from his reactions post race he had not expected to get that call.
Even more demoralising for him now is that there will never be a chance for a WDC while he is with Ferrari (and for that I feel sorry for Filipe )

One of the reasons I have followed Ferrari for the last 40+ years was that the WCC was far more important than the WDC to them. As the drivers in the last few years are more closely matched it has become harder to call who is No 1 and 2 and as such we have seen the emergence of drivers being contracted as 1 and 2, Now we have drivers of very equal abilities in at least 3 teams this notional idea of 1 and 2 is becoming outdated. So lets get back to the WCC is the goal and who ever is the WDC let that be sorted out on the track without any interference PLease.He proved after 2007 being Kimi's subordinate then 2008 making Kimi give him position that he has every right to achieve the WDC when the season starts. He just needs to be in front of his teammate or not too far from him in points to allow him to fight for the title and not be forced to give up places for the good of the team.

The WDC gets more publicity than the WCC, and of course it's important for a team to say XX drivers won their titles in our cars. The WDC is almost as important for Ferrari as the WDC, and in a season where the WCC is looking dire, they wont let it escape.

justjesper
25th July 2010, 15:35
What happend to the other post 'S H A M E O N YOU, F E R R A R I - D I S C U S T I N G'

It just disappeared

Greig
25th July 2010, 15:36
Yeah it sure did, this is a Ferrari forum, if you are ashamed then post it on planet F1 or similar :-)

justjesper
25th July 2010, 15:43
I'm stunned. This was clearly something that people care about and it's gone ???

What is the reason to delete it Greig ?

Greig
25th July 2010, 15:44
I'm stunned. This was clearly something that people care about and it's gone ???

What is the reason to delete it Greig ?

Members complained about it :-) use the race thread if you want to discuss the race :-)

Quattro
25th July 2010, 15:49
Yeah it sure did, this is a Ferrari forum, if you are ashamed then post it on planet F1 or similar :-)

So what happened to free speech your sensorship?

justjesper
25th July 2010, 15:52
So what happened to free speech your sensorship?

This is Greig's world. We have free speech when Greig is on vacation :lol

Alonsomaniac
25th July 2010, 16:00
Being an Alonsofan I am very sorry for Felipe Massa and also Fernando Alonso that they both did not get the chance to fight for the victory.
For me today was a deception.

GamD
25th July 2010, 16:00
This is Greig's world. We have free speech when Greig is on vacation :lol

shhhhhh!

Curbs
25th July 2010, 16:02
I agree the radiocall was BAD! But had Massa just done what he was supposed to, then it wouldnīt have happend. All this mess is thanks to Massa. So sack him.

justjesper
25th July 2010, 16:09
I agree the radiocall was BAD! But had Massa just done what he was supposed to, then it wouldnīt have happend. All this mess is thanks to Massa. So sack him.

Massa was doing exactly what he was hired to do . WIN .
Alonso were bitching about being faster a few laps before and after the race he " knew nothing "
half the people here could see it. Is he stupid or perhaps he just cant put 2 and 2 together.
The team is at fault. If this is what they wanted they should had planed it before the race.

Curbs
25th July 2010, 16:10
Him winning at this point is NOT IN THE INTRESSED OF OUR TEAM!
He has not a shot at the WDC!

steelstallions
25th July 2010, 16:12
I agree the radiocall was BAD! But had Massa just done what he was supposed to, then it wouldnīt have happend. All this mess is thanks to Massa. So sack him.

What more did you want Massa to do?

He gave up the lead immediately 15 laps before the end and kept the 2nd spot.

He is a driver not an actor, so it would be asking a lot for him laugh and joke and hug and kiss the team when they have just told him to lose a race for his team mate.

Alonsomaniac
25th July 2010, 16:14
Massa was doing exactly what he was hired to do . WIN .
Alonso were bitching about being faster a few laps before and after the race he " knew nothing "
half the people here could see it. Is he stupid or perhaps he just cant put 2 and 2 together.
The team is at fault. If this is what they wanted they should had planed it before the race.

Don't blame Alonso for this. At times he was indeed faster and clearly was not happy about it. It could have become an heroic fight for the win. But the team made this decision, something they NEVER should have done.
And ofcourse Fernando knew immediately what had happened, but what could he say?

Curbs
25th July 2010, 16:14
What more did you want Massa to do?

He gave up the lead immediately 15 laps before the end and kept the 2nd spot.

He is a driver not an actor, so it would be asking a lot for him laugh and joke and hug and kiss the team when they have just told him to lose a race for his team mate.


He could do what he did, but NOT THAT OBVIOUS! Everybody know teamorders still are around. But you could do it in a better way! For the team, that pays his sallary!

On lap 20 he could let Alonso past. In the hairpin. Insted he nearly drives Alonso of track! STUPID STUPID STUPID!

Alonsomaniac
25th July 2010, 16:16
He has not a shot at the WDC!

This way he indeed has not............

Tifoso
25th July 2010, 16:19
I am completely OK with this. Alonso was clearly the faster car, and is the only one of our drivers (this year ;-)) with a realistic shot at the WDC.
Well done, Ferrari.

Curbs
25th July 2010, 16:21
I hope Massa is happy with what he now can read. 100.000 fine, plus futher penaltys coming.
Brilliant. What a lovely teamplayer "Sunshine" is.

Agron
25th July 2010, 16:23
What happend to the other post 'S H A M E O N YOU, F E R R A R I - D I S C U S T I N G'

It just disappearedThankfully we have had a season plagued with mistakes and problems for the team and drivers, otherwise we wouldn't have had the pleasure of your presence all year :lol

Greig
25th July 2010, 16:54
shhhhhh!

You can join him if you like :-)

Rob
25th July 2010, 17:04
I am completely OK with this. Alonso was clearly the faster car, and is the only one of our drivers (this year ;-)) with a realistic shot at the WDC.
Well done, Ferrari.

totally agree with you Lou!! Fernando is in best position for WDC and thats what team is all about WDC WCC. Think what alot of people are missing is the fact that we beat Mclaren and RBR fair and square. We got the speed. Well done to all the team great job and thankyou. Car is stunning.

Julie B
25th July 2010, 17:07
OMG you wouldn't think this is a Ferrari Forum where we are supposed to support Ferrari no matter what happens!!!

Even though we might not like or agree with the decisions, WE are not the ones making the decisions, WE are not on the pit wall and having to make these decisions.

I'm sure the Team don't do this just to make the fans unhappy or to make us start slagging off our drivers because we don't agree with it.

At the end of the day a decision was made for the good of the team,whether you like it or not....only the WMSC can determine the outcome, so for myself I'm not wasting my time in apportioning blame to people in the Team who don't deserve it, which I think is unfair.

Tifoso
25th July 2010, 17:08
This is Greig's world. We have free speech when Greig is on vacation :lol


Horsebleep. :-)

Tifoso
25th July 2010, 17:09
OMG you wouldn't think this is a Ferrari Forum where we are supposed to support Ferrari no matter what happens!!!

Even though we might not like or agree with the decisions, WE are not the ones making the decisions, WE are not on the pit wall and having to make these decisions.

I'm sure the Team don't do this just to make the fans unhappy or to make us start slagging off our drivers because we don't agree with it.

At the end of the day a decision was made for the good of the team,whether you like it or not....only the WMSC can determine the outcome, so for myself I'm not wasting my time in apportioning blame to people in the Team who don't deserve it, which I think is unfair.

Exactly. It's done all the time, by every team that can.

GamD
25th July 2010, 17:10
You can join him if you like :-)

Where is he going?

or is he gone already?

epiclyaddicted
25th July 2010, 17:34
OMG you wouldn't think this is a Ferrari Forum where we are supposed to support Ferrari no matter what happens!!!

Even though we might not like or agree with the decisions, WE are not the ones making the decisions, WE are not on the pit wall and having to make these decisions.

I'm sure the Team don't do this just to make the fans unhappy or to make us start slagging off our drivers because we don't agree with it.

At the end of the day a decision was made for the good of the team,whether you like it or not....only the WMSC can determine the outcome, so for myself I'm not wasting my time in apportioning blame to people in the Team who don't deserve it, which I think is unfair.

+1 :thumb

Tifosi
25th July 2010, 17:38
Exactly. It's done all the time, by every team that can.

Funny how we seem to have this happy knack of making ourselves look mega stupid when we do it though. Don't recall anyone else swapping positions quite so blatantly, or as many times tbh :-??

Rob
25th July 2010, 17:40
OMG you wouldn't think this is a Ferrari Forum where we are supposed to support Ferrari no matter what happens!!!

Even though we might not like or agree with the decisions, WE are not the ones making the decisions, WE are not on the pit wall and having to make these decisions.

I'm sure the Team don't do this just to make the fans unhappy or to make us start slagging off our drivers because we don't agree with it.

At the end of the day a decision was made for the good of the team,whether you like it or not....only the WMSC can determine the outcome, so for myself I'm not wasting my time in apportioning blame to people in the Team who don't deserve it, which I think is unfair.


+1 :clap well said, couldnt of said it better Julie. Roll on Hungaroring

Tifoso
25th July 2010, 17:40
Funny how we seem to have this happy knack of making ourselves look mega stupid when we do it though. Don't recall anyone else swapping positions quite so blatantly, or as many times tbh :-??

Agreed.

Curbs
25th July 2010, 17:55
Funny how we seem to have this happy knack of making ourselves look mega stupid when we do it though. Don't recall anyone else swapping positions quite so blatantly, or as many times tbh :-??

And how isnīt this Massas fault? He must have known that all this would come after his stupid stupid actions. That shows how much he cares for his team. Heīs not a teamplayer.

Suzie
25th July 2010, 17:56
And how isnīt this Massas fault? He must have known that all this would come after his stupid stupid actions. That shows how much he cares for his team. Heīs not a teamplayer.

I soooooo agree. Damn him and his non-team playing ways.

hogo
25th July 2010, 18:02
Alonso is too far from WDC title and rip Massa of 5 lousy points at this stage was stupid.

Tifosi
25th July 2010, 18:10
And how isnīt this Massas fault? He must have known that all this would come after his stupid stupid actions. That shows how much he cares for his team. Heīs not a teamplayer.

whatever :-ZZ

Greig
25th July 2010, 18:13
it's like a flashback to 2002 when Rubens got the blame for that one too :-D

Silent Bob
25th July 2010, 18:14
Alonso is too far from WDC title and rip Massa of 5 lousy points at this stage was stupid.


Really? I think Alonso only 1 win & abit away from the lead. And it was 8 points not 5.
oops 7 points not 5.

Silent Bob
25th July 2010, 18:18
it's like a flashback to 2002 when Rubens got the blame for that one too :-D

everyone knows team orders are in F1, to say they aren't is lying.. but there are ways of handling it like a grownup that gets paid millions a year. Massa is way behind in the points.. and that is his fault. Wonder if the team should come out and moan the next time he finishes out of the points.

Pierce89
25th July 2010, 18:20
No. I tink at this stage the decision was the right one. The problem is there are too many people who are airing grievances in the open. There was no need for Smedley to say what he did over the air and no need for Massa to sulk in the post race interview.. the time for that is after in the motorhome away from the media. There was nothing unprofessional in what Domenicalli did.. it was Massa and his engineer that acted like children. They are professionals and should act like it. If this costs Ferrari their points or positions, then it'd be time to look for another #2 driver. Every driver knows if he's trailing in points he might be asked to move over, and most are professional about it.. Massa was acting like that other Brazilian, Barrichello. Shame on him.

+1 If he wanted to win he should have pulled away instead of holding Alonso up. If he was 5 sec ahead then the team couldn't have told him Alonso was faster.

Curbs
25th July 2010, 18:21
whatever :-ZZ

So, who is to blame then? Trulli? My cat? Alonsos mother?

FerrariPassion
25th July 2010, 18:23
Massa shouldnt have moved over, If Nando had the fastest car..go earn the win. I see Ferraris reason, but no, make Fernando earn it. To me Felipe won that race.

hogo
25th July 2010, 18:27
everyone knows team orders are in F1, to say they aren't is lying.. but there are ways of handling it like a grownup that gets paid millions a year. Massa is way behind in the points.. and that is his fault. Wonder if the team should come out and moan the next time he finishes out of the points.

good point there :D. Anyway they had to use that stupid "save fuel" command, it works perfect with mccheaters. Still such team orders at this stage weren't necessary imo.

Redstorm
25th July 2010, 18:29
Well this win leaves me frustrated. I have to say I love Ferrari. I like Massa and Alonso. I love their passion and I think they are both very talented and I think Alonso is the best driver on the grid. All in all, I am happy when either one of them win.

But today, I am frustrated. All the arguing, all the media bashing, all these opinions.

Lets be clear. Alonso and Massa work for Ferrari. Ferrari pay them millions each year to drive a red car as fast as they can in circles. They travel and race for Ferrari. That is what they do week in and week out.
Today we had a dream situation (especially this season) a Ferrari 1, 2. Massa let Alonso pass and he should have. Alonso WAS FASTER, Alonso is HAS MORE POINTS in the championship and this is what was best fot the team. There are team orders in F1 and every team has them in one manner or the other. If that is wrong then we should have only one driver and we can have different names. Team Alonso, Team Massa, Team Hamilton...you catch my drift.

Let 's enjoy this victory and support OUR TEAM.
FORZA FERRARI!!!

Pierce89
25th July 2010, 19:02
So, who is to blame then? Trulli? My cat? Alonsos mother?

No one needs blame. It's just part of F1. Massa should have asserted himself earlier in the season if he didn't want to be # 2. The shame is they robbed us of the spectacle of Alonso mugging Massa into the hairpin on merit, as he surely would have done. Most importantly of all FORZA FERRARI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Curbs
25th July 2010, 19:06
The whole world is bashing Ferrari and screaming SCANDAL! And noone needs to be blamed? :roll

Massas childish action is what started this. And Ferrari pays him very large money, and this is how he thanks them?
Well done sunshine!

Tifosi
25th July 2010, 19:09
So, who is to blame then? Trulli? My cat? Alonsos mother?

to blame for what? Making Ferrari look like they did in 2002? Well, i guess that would be THE TEAM. Funny how a team decision become a blame thing doesnt it! Hug your points and have a good night. :-P

Curbs
25th July 2010, 19:12
to blame for what? Making Ferrari look like they did in 2002? Well, i guess that would be THE TEAM. Funny how a team decision become a blame thing doesnt it! Hug your points and have a good night. :-P

Oh, so it was a teamcall for Smedley and Massa to act the way they did. Oh, yeah, sounds right. Why didnīt I think of that....

Greig
25th July 2010, 19:14
The whole world is bashing Ferrari and screaming SCANDAL! And noone needs to be blamed? :roll

Massas childish action is what started this. And Ferrari pays him very large money, and this is how he thanks them?
Well done sunshine!

Every driver would do the same, why should he not?

Curbs
25th July 2010, 19:23
Yeah, why shouldnīt you try to make your employer look stupid in front of the whole world? Hmm, beats me.

Greig
25th July 2010, 19:25
Yeah, why shouldnīt you try to make your employer look stupid in front of the whole world? Hmm, beats me.

So he should have made himself look stupid then be accused of losing the win due to a mistake or something?

Curbs
25th July 2010, 19:29
So he should have made himself look stupid then be accused of losing the win due to a mistake or something?

Yes and no, if he had a brain like a normal person he would have done it but not that OBVIOUS! He could have done it on lap 20 in the hairpin when they were lapping. Insted he nearly drives over Alonso. Stupid stupid stupid!

Katu
25th July 2010, 19:30
So he should have made himself look stupid then be accused of losing the win due to a mistake or something?

that wouldn't have been anything new

Nova
25th July 2010, 19:30
Yeah it sure did, this is a Ferrari forum, if you are ashamed then post it on planet F1 or similar :-)

Right on baby....:thumb

Nova
25th July 2010, 19:32
totally agree with you Lou!! Fernando is in best position for WDC and thats what team is all about WDC WCC. Think what alot of people are missing is the fact that we beat Mclaren and RBR fair and square. We got the speed. Well done to all the team great job and thankyou. Car is stunning.

:thumb

Greig
25th July 2010, 19:34
that wouldn't have been anything new

:roll as opposed to the non mistake making Alonso I guess right?

Greig
25th July 2010, 19:35
Yes and no, if he had a brain like a normal person he would have done it but not that OBVIOUS! He could have done it on lap 20 in the hairpin when they were lapping. Insted he nearly drives over Alonso. Stupid stupid stupid!

On lap 20 he did not know he had to move over, unless he is now a clairvoyant then how was he to know....

Nova
25th July 2010, 19:35
So what happened to free speech your sensorship?

Hey dude, this is a Ferrari forum..there are plenty of sites to go and berate a team...what, did a truckload of Mac fans just show up?

Katu
25th July 2010, 19:36
:roll as opposed to the non mistake making Alonso I guess right?

even with his mistakes his ahead of massa

Nova
25th July 2010, 19:39
OMG you wouldn't think this is a Ferrari Forum where we are supposed to support Ferrari no matter what happens!!!

Even though we might not like or agree with the decisions, WE are not the ones making the decisions, WE are not on the pit wall and having to make these decisions.

I'm sure the Team don't do this just to make the fans unhappy or to make us start slagging off our drivers because we don't agree with it.

At the end of the day a decision was made for the good of the team,whether you like it or not....only the WMSC can determine the outcome, so for myself I'm not wasting my time in apportioning blame to people in the Team who don't deserve it, which I think is unfair.

I thinks its unfair also..along with the fine imposed by the fia....all this mambo is taking away from the fact that WE WON today..we NEEDED to WIN today..or the season would be finetto..

Greig
25th July 2010, 19:39
even with his mistakes his ahead of massa

Maybe so, but not so far away yeah?

Katu
25th July 2010, 19:42
Maybe so, but not so far away yeah?

only today. nobody tied massa's hands behind his back and didn't allow him race all through 1 part of the season... it's too late to start for him now

Greig
25th July 2010, 19:45
only today. nobody tied massa's hands behind his back and didn't allow him race all through 1 part of the season... it's too late to start for him now

LOL why was it too late? you make no sense really. Alonso would be leading the title and not need team orders without his mistakes maybe :-) Why should Massa be punished for Alonso's mistakes

Curbs
25th July 2010, 19:49
On lap 20 he did not know he had to move over, unless he is now a clairvoyant then how was he to know....

I think he knew this even before the start.

Ken
25th July 2010, 19:52
I am going to say my piece and pack my bags.

This is no longer the "Ferrari" fan site that I joined.

We used to have a sense of humour on these boards, now we have thread after thread about who is the best driver. We are now in self distruct mode.

1st off some of you will remember after a certain over taking incident how Mc Cheaters got their nickname and Ramilton gained a reputation. So are we to now divide the team and blame a driver and make him carry the blame for the "management" breaking the rules.

All this has achieved is a driver who got max points not exactly rejoicing in his win, we have a driver who if he reads any of this can only be even more demoralised. The timing is stupid, if we are to achieve the WCC we need both drivers giving it their best , todays incident wil have an adverse affect on what we need from them both for the rest of the season.

To recap the race I watched, Massa had a great start and put himself into 1st place, he then pulled out a 5.5 second lead over Alonso, struggled for a couple of laps on the new tyres and drove off into the lead again, Smedly told Massa earlier "come on you can win this" and Massa drove in a way we hadnt seen for a long time..

If we consider the fuel side, To achieve those gaps Massa was burning fuel to do everything he needed to win, and with a 1/3rd of the race to go was saving fuel to get to the finish. JOB DONE. Then that fatal descision to swap cars because Alonso was was closing the gap, Then the fatal message to Massa (badly delivered ) followed by an inept publicity guy on TV.

Follow all that with the unkindest comments about Massa's behaviour post race in here, and what else would you expect him to do ( and if there is anyone else in here who takes part in competitive sport of any type you would know exactly what Massa was feeling ). I hoped that some DECENT Alonso fans would be prepared to recognise what Massa gave away, but no!, all I can see is blame it all on Massa

What happened to the days when we laughed at other teams mistakes and grimaced at our own ??

This site for me has become too much about driver V's Driver, Not about the love of the legend that is Ferrari

Take care I will look in from time to time to see if the mood in here improves.

Naeem
25th July 2010, 19:52
Today i loved ferrari a little less.

Greig
25th July 2010, 19:52
I think he knew this even before the start.

If so then there would be no radio would there :-)

Stormsearcher
25th July 2010, 19:53
I agree the radiocall was BAD! But had Massa just done what he was supposed to, then it wouldnīt have happend. All this mess is thanks to Massa. So sack him.

lol.. while i agree on your overall point that Massa AND smedley should have disguised their personal feelings about this until they got to the motorhome... i think you are being a bit hard on him. Afterall, he is in racing hoping to win the title. He is bound to feel miffed at the whole thing. No need to sack him for having emotions.

Curbs
25th July 2010, 19:55
If so then there would be no radio would there :-)

Yep, bacuase he was childish and wanted to prove a point. Just like Barrichello in 2002.

Stormsearcher
25th July 2010, 20:28
did you guys read the entire german GP press conf?
The press was brutal with our guys, Nando taking most of the flak of course.

Is the driver allowed to tell the press guys to take a hike and walk away? Cause i am very surprised nando and maybe even Felipe actually sat through that and patiently answered those questions.
It almost sounded like the press was extremely anti- SF.

Vettel surprisingly seemed to agree with the ferrari decision. He put it very subtly, but it was clear what he meant.

Effone
25th July 2010, 20:39
Yep, bacuase he was childish and wanted to prove a point. Just like Barrichello in 2002.

Massa is paid to RACE.. he is a racing driver so we expect him to push hard and get us wins!

Which he was doing today until alonso cried on the radio.

I would love to think Massa can lead a 1-2 next race but I dont think they will allow him that now, I think he should move on next year. I'm sure lots of teams would love to have him.

Greig
25th July 2010, 20:44
Massa is paid to RACE.. he is a racing driver so we expect him to push hard and get us wins!

Which he was doing today until alonso cried on the radio.

I would love to think Massa can lead a 1-2 next race but I dont think they will allow him that now, I think he should move on next year. I'm sure lots of teams would love to have him.

I thought you had left?

Stormsearcher
25th July 2010, 20:44
Massa is paid to RACE.. he is a racing driver so we expect him to push hard and get us wins!

Which he was doing today until alonso cried on the radio.

I would love to think Massa can lead a 1-2 next race but I dont think they will allow him that now, I think he should move on next year. I'm sure lots of teams would love to have him.

True, i hear HRT is looking. Dont be silly, All the serious teams already have top drivers. Massa will be foolish to leave. His best chance is with Ferrari. If he was leading between the 2 drivers, am sure he would have been offered the same favours.

Effone
25th July 2010, 20:45
You know its a real shame all this happened today because it seems to be taking the attention off the car, which seems VERY good. I am no technical expert and I dont know what they have done but wow it looked rather supreme today.

Greig
25th July 2010, 20:45
He already was given the same favour :-)

Curbs
25th July 2010, 20:45
Massa is paid to RACE.. he is a racing driver so we expect him to push hard and get us wins!

Which he was doing today until alonso cried on the radio.

I would love to think Massa can lead a 1-2 next race but I dont think they will allow him that now, I think he should move on next year. I'm sure lots of teams would love to have him.

Massa is paid to do what ever Ferrari tells him to end of story. If he unhappy with what his bosses tells him he should say so, but not on track in front of the whole world, but behind closed doors. End of story!

Effone
25th July 2010, 20:45
I thought you had left?

Just your wishful thinking my friend :P

Greig
25th July 2010, 20:46
Just your wishful thinking my friend :P

Your words, not mine, I don't need to wish :-)

aroutis
25th July 2010, 21:12
Just your wishful thinking my friend :PIf he wanted you gone, gone you'd be :P

As for our drivers , not just Felippe, they get paid to do as Ferrari orders them to.

WHATEVER that might be.

It's all about the team.

Alonsomaniac
25th July 2010, 21:45
Ferrari really made a mess of it today.
Every team uses teamorders if necessary and everybody knows that. The problem is not THAT you do it, but HOW you do it.
Today Ferrari did a lousy job with that, although they at the same time did an absolute TERRIFIC job by putting both cars back where they belong: on top.

Suzie
25th July 2010, 21:50
I am going to say my piece and pack my bags.

This is no longer the "Ferrari" fan site that I joined.

We used to have a sense of humour on these boards, now we have thread after thread about who is the best driver. We are now in self distruct mode.

1st off some of you will remember after a certain over taking incident how Mc Cheaters got their nickname and Ramilton gained a reputation. So are we to now divide the team and blame a driver and make him carry the blame for the "management" breaking the rules.

All this has achieved is a driver who got max points not exactly rejoicing in his win, we have a driver who if he reads any of this can only be even more demoralised. The timing is stupid, if we are to achieve the WCC we need both drivers giving it their best , todays incident wil have an adverse affect on what we need from them both for the rest of the season.

To recap the race I watched, Massa had a great start and put himself into 1st place, he then pulled out a 5.5 second lead over Alonso, struggled for a couple of laps on the new tyres and drove off into the lead again, Smedly told Massa earlier "come on you can win this" and Massa drove in a way we hadnt seen for a long time..

If we consider the fuel side, To achieve those gaps Massa was burning fuel to do everything he needed to win, and with a 1/3rd of the race to go was saving fuel to get to the finish. JOB DONE. Then that fatal descision to swap cars because Alonso was was closing the gap, Then the fatal message to Massa (badly delivered ) followed by an inept publicity guy on TV.

Follow all that with the unkindest comments about Massa's behaviour post race in here, and what else would you expect him to do ( and if there is anyone else in here who takes part in competitive sport of any type you would know exactly what Massa was feeling ). I hoped that some DECENT Alonso fans would be prepared to recognise what Massa gave away, but no!, all I can see is blame it all on Massa

What happened to the days when we laughed at other teams mistakes and grimaced at our own ??

This site for me has become too much about driver V's Driver, Not about the love of the legend that is Ferrari

Take care I will look in from time to time to see if the mood in here improves.

Please don't leave Ken :-s

Curbs
25th July 2010, 22:07
Massa:

I am very professional and I show in my career how professional I am. You are professional as well, you work for your company, you are doing what you have to do, I am professional and today I showed how professional I am."

:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

Suzie
25th July 2010, 22:10
Massa:


:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

I think we all get your point.

Vittorio
25th July 2010, 22:34
I have been a Ferrari fan for over 30 years, and have had to put up with a lot as any true tifoso will know. I have always been more about the team than I have been about the actual drivers. I have liked some Ferrari drivers a lot more (Schumacher, of course, Lauda, Mansell, Arnoux, Villeneuve, Raikkonen, Massa) than I have others (Barrichello, Irvine, Prost come to mind, all of whom I mostly disliked for one or other reason at Ferrari), this is true, but for me it's always mainly been about the beautiful red cars and team.

BUT THIS WAS OUTRAGEOUS & ABSOLUTELY SHAMEFUL BY FERRARI!

How can anybody be happy with today's result? Massa looks like either a victim, a fool or a wimp, whilst Alonso comes across as either a bully, a prima donna or a cynical . And, worse still, Ferrari comes across as a nightmarish blend of cynical, disloyal, shortsighted and just bloody stupid.

Cynical because the whole way in which it was conducted reeks. Some may argue that Rob Smedley was too obvious and did not perform like a true team player over the radio with his comments to Felipe. Why the hell should he? Rob Smedley is a straightforward, blunt Yorkshireman who was clearly embarrassed out of his mind with having to ask his driver (and good friend) to basically gift Alonso the win. Cynical because who the hell do Ferrari and Alonso think they're kidding with their patently ridiculous lies or 'innocent shrugs' that none of it was team orders?! What a slap in the face of all the tifosi. At least have the bloody courage of your own convictions and cynical machinations, Domenicali, Alonso et al!

Disloyal because is this a way to commemorate one year almost to the day since Massa had his horrific accident at the Hungarian GP? Is this the way to foster team spirit and a wish to do even better and bust your guts for your team when they order you to do this for your teammate? It stinks of the most despicable disloyalty, not only to Massa and Smedley, but to each and every true Ferrari fan around the world, and all lovers of Formula 1 for that matter.

Shortsighted because who's the BIG FAT VILLAIN in Formula 1 all over again? Ferrari. And who come across looking all cynical and snubbing their noses at the FIA rules in such a hypocritical manner when crying foul about said rules just a few weeks ago? Ferrari. And were those 8 points really worth all of this; this monumental pile of that has once again made a mockery of the Scuderia and its long history in Formula 1? Of course it wasn't. Once again, and for the umpteenth time, the Ferrari management show themselves up for being the astoundingly shortsighted strategists that they invariably are. It's beyond embarrassing - it's downright cringeworthy.

Bloody stupid because no one in the red team is a real winner today. Massa sure as hell isn't, Alonso mustn't dream that he is, and Ferrari will be the worst off. Don't come to me with that crap about 'how the team comes first' or 'Alonso was always going to be the contender', because that's all rubbish speculation at best. There are still 8 more races to go and a difference of 31 points is really very little when there are as much 25 points for a win and so much can yet happen in the coming races. Alonso could have one or two really bad races (heaven knows, he is as capable as any other driver of doing that) and Massa win two and, suddenly, they could be level or even Massa ahead again. So impossible to imagine? Stranger things have happened. The team orders today simply do not justify telling a driver who is doing a brilliant, stellar job (Massa) to hand over victory to the driver who was not the best driver on the day (Alonso) when there is still so much championship and so many points to play for. Even if Alonso goes onto win this year's WDC, this win today in Germany will always rankle many, myself included.

And, NO, winning for the sake of winning is never good enough. Not when you win like this. It simply is never, ever ultimately justifiable.

And, yes, I do need to say it, even if I risk now coming across as an Alonso hater. But I must say it, because today proved my theory that I've had about Alonso for many years now. He is undoubtedly a fast and very good driver. But he is also a gigantic prima donna and a very petty, petulant man and driver. He has always struck me as that, especially in his heyday at Renault when he was so easy to hate with his constant rants and ridiculous vendettas and childish statements against Schumi at Ferrari. Handmaiden to that utter abomination of a man, Flavio Briatore, Alonso was a driver I simply could never fully respect. As much as I also dislike Lewis Hamilton, he totally showed up Alonso that year in McLaren, and Alonso revealed his true character, which is horribly insecure and very divisive, and so his time at Macca was a fiasco. My heart sank when it became inevitable that he would be joining Ferrari. I have never, ever felt that Alonso will be half as good for Ferrari as so many people seem to so believe he would be. His ugly personality and lack of true character pander to everything which I so dislike about my beloved scuderia - the politics, the pettiness and the disloyalty it has so often displayed over the years. He is not a Schumacher, because Michael instilled a sense of team discipline, spirit and unity during his time which Alonso is completely incapable of. He doesn't even have the all-out flair of a Gilles Villeneuve or the lovable tenacity of a Nigel Mansell. Alonso is what he is - driven, fast and very competitive, yes, but also disloyal, pedantic and monstrously egotistical, even for an F1 driver.

I support Alonso now only because he drives for the team I have supported all these years. Just as I had to do when Prost and Irvine and other uninspiring or unlikable or just not that good drivers drove for the scuderia. But I can never, nor do I believe will I ever, be truly happy to support Alonso in my heart of hearts. He's just not that calibre of driver or man for me. He has the potential to bring out the worst in Ferrari and, today, Ferrari proved that they too can bring out the worst in Alonso.

What a disgrace.

And we are all the losers for it.

Greig
25th July 2010, 22:37
How did you manage to cope with Austria 2001, and 2002 out of interest?

Vittorio
25th July 2010, 22:42
I am going to say my piece and pack my bags.

This is no longer the "Ferrari" fan site that I joined.

We used to have a sense of humour on these boards, now we have thread after thread about who is the best driver. We are now in self distruct mode.

1st off some of you will remember after a certain over taking incident how Mc Cheaters got their nickname and Ramilton gained a reputation. So are we to now divide the team and blame a driver and make him carry the blame for the "management" breaking the rules.

All this has achieved is a driver who got max points not exactly rejoicing in his win, we have a driver who if he reads any of this can only be even more demoralised. The timing is stupid, if we are to achieve the WCC we need both drivers giving it their best , todays incident wil have an adverse affect on what we need from them both for the rest of the season.

To recap the race I watched, Massa had a great start and put himself into 1st place, he then pulled out a 5.5 second lead over Alonso, struggled for a couple of laps on the new tyres and drove off into the lead again, Smedly told Massa earlier "come on you can win this" and Massa drove in a way we hadnt seen for a long time..

If we consider the fuel side, To achieve those gaps Massa was burning fuel to do everything he needed to win, and with a 1/3rd of the race to go was saving fuel to get to the finish. JOB DONE. Then that fatal descision to swap cars because Alonso was was closing the gap, Then the fatal message to Massa (badly delivered ) followed by an inept publicity guy on TV.

Follow all that with the unkindest comments about Massa's behaviour post race in here, and what else would you expect him to do ( and if there is anyone else in here who takes part in competitive sport of any type you would know exactly what Massa was feeling ). I hoped that some DECENT Alonso fans would be prepared to recognise what Massa gave away, but no!, all I can see is blame it all on Massa

What happened to the days when we laughed at other teams mistakes and grimaced at our own ??

This site for me has become too much about driver V's Driver, Not about the love of the legend that is Ferrari

Take care I will look in from time to time to see if the mood in here improves.

This is a truly BRILLIANT post.:thumb:thumb

I could not agree more with everything you've written. You, my friend, are a true lover of Ferrari, a true tifoso.

Curbs
25th July 2010, 22:47
I just donīt understand. IF you love Ferrari so much, how can you accept the way Massa/Smedley acted today? They draged the Ferraribadge in the mud, spit on it and this in front of the whole world.

Vittorio
25th July 2010, 22:48
How did you manage to cope with Austria 2001, and 2002 out of interest?

I, for one, didn't, especially the Austrian GP debacle. Just because I love Ferrari does not mean that I cannot see when they make blundering mistakes or are a discredit to the sport. Ferrari's actions today have been a disgrace and have sullied their reputation. And it was all so utterly unnecessary.

I have no problem whatsoever in calling anyone to task when I believe that they are patently wrong or have erred badly. Blind love for anything, even your favourite F1 team, can never be a good thing at times like this.

Tifosi
25th July 2010, 22:50
I just donīt understand. IF you love Ferrari so much, how can you accept the way Massa/Smedley acted today? They draged the Ferraribadge in the mud, spit on it and this in front of the whole world.

Nope, you don't do you. What you think makes you a Ferrari Supporter doesn't it Curbs?

Greig
25th July 2010, 22:50
I, for one, didn't, especially the Austrian GP debacle. Just because I love Ferrari does not mean that I cannot see when they make blundering mistakes or are a discredit to the sport. Ferrari's actions today have been a disgrace and have sullied their reputation. And it was all so utterly unnecessary.

I have no problem whatsoever in calling anyone to task when I believe that they are patently wrong or have erred badly. Blind love for anything, even your favourite F1 team, can never be a good thing at times like this.

Indeed, so why has today made you rant and rave about Alonso? do you think he demanded such a team call?

Curbs
25th July 2010, 22:56
Nope, you don't do you. What you think makes you a Ferrari Supporter doesn't it Curbs?

Iīve watched F1 since I was 10. Iīve supported Ferrari during everything. Iīve deffended all things theyīve done, good or bad.
And what Massa did today isnīt just about F1. Its a total disrespect against your employer.

Curbs
25th July 2010, 22:58
I, for one, didn't, especially the Austrian GP debacle. Just because I love Ferrari does not mean that I cannot see when they make blundering mistakes or are a discredit to the sport. Ferrari's actions today have been a disgrace and have sullied their reputation. And it was all so utterly unnecessary.

I have no problem whatsoever in calling anyone to task when I believe that they are patently wrong or have erred badly. Blind love for anything, even your favourite F1 team, can never be a good thing at times like this.

Just wondering. What was the worst thing today? What Ferrari did, or the fact they got caught? Because what Ferrari did today, everybody else is also doing. Itīs a part of the game.

Mollydog
25th July 2010, 22:59
He earns 15 million dollars or more each year just from the team, he likely earns a lot too from commercials and the like, in addition, at the start of the year he is given the car and the chances to win the WDC and write his name in History, something he was very close to doing in 2008; finally of course driving for Ferrari provides him fame and hero status amongst hundreds of thousands or even millions of people. 99% of the world population would do the most insane things to be in his situation today and do what he did, thus continuing to enjoy those benefits, hell, people kill others just for 15 minutes of bad fame.
No need to thank him really, he did his job, he did it very well but he just did his job.

"to win the WDC and write his name in History"

Yeah thats right, wright his name in history as the fall guy, like Rubins

Alonsomaniac
25th July 2010, 23:03
I have been a Ferrari fan for over 30 years, and have had to put up with a lot as any true tifoso will know. I have always been more about the team than I have been about the actual drivers. I have liked some Ferrari drivers a lot more (Schumacher, of course, Lauda, Mansell, Arnoux, Villeneuve, Raikkonen, Massa) than I have others (Barrichello, Irvine, Prost come to mind, all of whom I mostly disliked for one or other reason at Ferrari), this is true, but for me it's always mainly been about the beautiful red cars and team.

BUT THIS WAS OUTRAGEOUS & ABSOLUTELY SHAMEFUL BY FERRARI!

How can anybody be happy with today's result? Massa looks like either a victim, a fool or a wimp, whilst Alonso comes across as either a bully, a prima donna or a cynical . And, worse still, Ferrari comes across as a nightmarish blend of cynical, disloyal, shortsighted and just bloody stupid.

Cynical because the whole way in which it was conducted reeks. Some may argue that Rob Smedley was too obvious and did not perform like a true team player over the radio with his comments to Felipe. Why the hell should he? Rob Smedley is a straightforward, blunt Yorkshireman who was clearly embarrassed out of his mind with having to ask his driver (and good friend) to basically gift Alonso the win. Cynical because who the hell do Ferrari and Alonso think they're kidding with their patently ridiculous lies or 'innocent shrugs' that none of it was team orders?! What a slap in the face of all the tifosi. At least have the bloody courage of your own convictions and cynical machinations, Domenicali, Alonso et al!

Disloyal because is this a way to commemorate one year almost to the day since Massa had his horrific accident at the Hungarian GP? Is this the way to foster team spirit and a wish to do even better and bust your guts for your team when they order you to do this for your teammate? It stinks of the most despicable disloyalty, not only to Massa and Smedley, but to each and every true Ferrari fan around the world, and all lovers of Formula 1 for that matter.

Shortsighted because who's the BIG FAT VILLAIN in Formula 1 all over again? Ferrari. And who come across looking all cynical and snubbing their noses at the FIA rules in such a hypocritical manner when crying foul about said rules just a few weeks ago? Ferrari. And were those 8 points really worth all of this; this monumental pile of that has once again made a mockery of the Scuderia and its long history in Formula 1? Of course it wasn't. Once again, and for the umpteenth time, the Ferrari management show themselves up for being the astoundingly shortsighted strategists that they invariably are. It's beyond embarrassing - it's downright cringeworthy.

Bloody stupid because no one in the red team is a real winner today. Massa sure as hell isn't, Alonso mustn't dream that he is, and Ferrari will be the worst off. Don't come to me with that crap about 'how the team comes first' or 'Alonso was always going to be the contender', because that's all rubbish speculation at best. There are still 8 more races to go and a difference of 31 points is really very little when there are as much 25 points for a win and so much can yet happen in the coming races. Alonso could have one or two really bad races (heaven knows, he is as capable as any other driver of doing that) and Massa win two and, suddenly, they could be level or even Massa ahead again. So impossible to imagine? Stranger things have happened. The team orders today simply do not justify telling a driver who is doing a brilliant, stellar job (Massa) to hand over victory to the driver who was not the best driver on the day (Alonso) when there is still so much championship and so many points to play for. Even if Alonso goes onto win this year's WDC, this win today in Germany will always rankle many, myself included.

And, NO, winning for the sake of winning is never good enough. Not when you win like this. It simply is never, ever ultimately justifiable.

And, yes, I do need to say it, even if I risk now coming across as an Alonso hater. But I must say it, because today proved my theory that I've had about Alonso for many years now. He is undoubtedly a fast and very good driver. But he is also a gigantic prima donna and a very petty, petulant man and driver. He has always struck me as that, especially in his heyday at Renault when he was so easy to hate with his constant rants and ridiculous vendettas and childish statements against Schumi at Ferrari. Handmaiden to that utter abomination of a man, Flavio Briatore, Alonso was a driver I simply could never fully respect. As much as I also dislike Lewis Hamilton, he totally showed up Alonso that year in McLaren, and Alonso revealed his true character, which is horribly insecure and very divisive, and so his time at Macca was a fiasco. My heart sank when it became inevitable that he would be joining Ferrari. I have never, ever felt that Alonso will be half as good for Ferrari as so many people seem to so believe he would be. His ugly personality and lack of true character pander to everything which I so dislike about my beloved scuderia - the politics, the pettiness and the disloyalty it has so often displayed over the years. He is not a Schumacher, because Michael instilled a sense of team discipline, spirit and unity during his time which Alonso is completely incapable of. He doesn't even have the all-out flair of a Gilles Villeneuve or the lovable tenacity of a Nigel Mansell. Alonso is what he is - driven, fast and very competitive, yes, but also disloyal, pedantic and monstrously egotistical, even for an F1 driver.

I support Alonso now only because he drives for the team I have supported all these years. Just as I had to do when Prost and Irvine and other uninspiring or unlikable or just not that good drivers drove for the scuderia. But I can never, nor do I believe will I ever, be truly happy to support Alonso in my heart of hearts. He's just not that calibre of driver or man for me. He has the potential to bring out the worst in Ferrari and, today, Ferrari proved that they too can bring out the worst in Alonso.

What a disgrace.

And we are all the losers for it.

Do you feel better now, having almost put it all in Alonso's shoes?
Be realistic, Fernando has no influence on these matters and neither has Felipe. They are both employees and have to do the job Ferrari wants them to do.

Tifosi
25th July 2010, 23:08
Iīve watched F1 since I was 10. Iīve supported Ferrari during everything. Iīve deffended all things theyīve done, good or bad.
And what Massa did today isnīt just about F1. Its a total disrespect against your employer.

Nice stats. I'm impressed. :roll Blind support isn't the only kind btw. Just so you know.

Curbs
25th July 2010, 23:19
Yeah, and to support a team just when it suits you isnīt the only way either.

Vittorio
25th July 2010, 23:19
Indeed, so why has today made you rant and rave about Alonso? do you think he demanded such a team call?

Since you asked, yes I do. Not that I think he demanded it over the radio (althought those typically petulant mutterings of "this is ridiculous" earlier in the race spoke volumes about his frustration, which was not at all Massa's fault nor concern), but Alonso has come into Ferrari with enough hype and enough sense of entitlement to engender this type of preferential treatment within Ferrari's management. Alonso's forceful and pedantic character, coupled with a weak and incompetent team boss like Domenicali, does create the type of strategically inept and even dangerously disloyal atmosphere that allows for the types of fiasco that occurred today.

Alonso is not a team player. Alonso is all about himself and has always been that way. He showed that time and time again at Renault and, most graphically, in the chaos that was his year at McLaren when he got nicely whipped a lot of the time by a young rookie. His ego cannot take it. He can't help who he is. Most of the time, that ugly and divisive part of his character can be below the radar and kept in check, but on a day like this, it just comes out in spades.

His cynical behaviour at the post-race press conference spoke volumes to me. It was vintage Alonso and Ferrari allowed it all to happen. Shame on them all.

Anyone who believes that today's team orders were completely without Alonso's full approval and even insistence, tacit or otherwize, is frankly naive or blindly pro-Alonso.

Mollydog
25th July 2010, 23:21
I am going to say my piece and pack my bags.

This is no longer the "Ferrari" fan site that I joined.

We used to have a sense of humour on these boards, now we have thread after thread about who is the best driver. We are now in self distruct mode.

1st off some of you will remember after a certain over taking incident how Mc Cheaters got their nickname and Ramilton gained a reputation. So are we to now divide the team and blame a driver and make him carry the blame for the "management" breaking the rules.

All this has achieved is a driver who got max points not exactly rejoicing in his win, we have a driver who if he reads any of this can only be even more demoralised. The timing is stupid, if we are to achieve the WCC we need both drivers giving it their best , todays incident wil have an adverse affect on what we need from them both for the rest of the season.

To recap the race I watched, Massa had a great start and put himself into 1st place, he then pulled out a 5.5 second lead over Alonso, struggled for a couple of laps on the new tyres and drove off into the lead again, Smedly told Massa earlier "come on you can win this" and Massa drove in a way we hadnt seen for a long time..

If we consider the fuel side, To achieve those gaps Massa was burning fuel to do everything he needed to win, and with a 1/3rd of the race to go was saving fuel to get to the finish. JOB DONE. Then that fatal descision to swap cars because Alonso was was closing the gap, Then the fatal message to Massa (badly delivered ) followed by an inept publicity guy on TV.

Follow all that with the unkindest comments about Massa's behaviour post race in here, and what else would you expect him to do ( and if there is anyone else in here who takes part in competitive sport of any type you would know exactly what Massa was feeling ). I hoped that some DECENT Alonso fans would be prepared to recognise what Massa gave away, but no!, all I can see is blame it all on Massa

What happened to the days when we laughed at other teams mistakes and grimaced at our own ??

This site for me has become too much about driver V's Driver, Not about the love of the legend that is Ferrari

Take care I will look in from time to time to see if the mood in here improves.

Great post, sadly like you say this forum is not what it used to be when I first started reading it, like you I too think it's time I left, and might pop in now and then to see just to see if things are the same

Vittorio
25th July 2010, 23:21
Nice stats. I'm impressed. :roll Blind support isn't the only kind btw. Just so you know.

Hurrah to that:-):thumb:thumb

Greig
25th July 2010, 23:24
Hurrah to that:-):thumb:thumb

And blind hatred of Alonso is not any better :thumb

Vittorio
25th July 2010, 23:29
Do you feel better now, having almost put it all in Alonso's shoes?
Be realistic, Fernando has no influence on these matters and neither has Felipe. They are both employees and have to do the job Ferrari wants them to do.

Next time get your facts straight. I did NOT put all the blame on Alonso. But do I think that he is a pedantic, petulant, divisive prima donna of note who was a central figure in today's fiasco? Absolutely.

Your quote about these drivers being mere "employees", especially Alonso at Ferrari, is both convenient and very quaint, not to mention exceptionally naive.

I never wanted Alonso in this team. But now we're stuck with him. I'm not going to stop being a Ferrari fan just because of one arrogant, self-centred driver whom I genuinely dislike, however good he may be (Prost at Ferrari, anyone?). Nor am I going to shut up when I see his destructive influence in force, tacit or otherwize, just because it may offend the sensibilities of those who either (a) blindly and rabidly support Ferrari or any team just because or (b) those who are patently Alonso supporters first, and Ferrari supporters second.

Not that I'm making any assumptions about your loyalties, Alonsomaniac. Heaven forbid. ;-)

Greig
25th July 2010, 23:31
LOL Alonsomaniac is one of the most balanced members on here, perhaps you should read some of their posts before jumping in with both feet :-)


*We do not care if you hate Fernando Alonso or Felipe Massa or another Ferrari team member, and we don’t want to hear groundless, insane and continuous ranting about them, if you hate them good, go somewhere else.

Vittorio
25th July 2010, 23:33
And blind hatred of Alonso is not any better :thumb

A miopic, sententious comeback you may have written to which I will nevertheless reply: not blind, dear one, but very well-assessed and based on enough years of objectively observing Alonso and his various and petulant machinations in F1.

Not that you'll believe me, of course. Ah well...:-D

Vittorio
25th July 2010, 23:33
LOL Alonsomaniac is one of the most balanced members on here, perhaps you should read some of their posts before jumping in with both feet :-)

My, my, titter titter - as you are too, no doubt.

Greig
25th July 2010, 23:35
My, my, titter titter - as you are too, no doubt.

As I said perhaps you should read some posts before you make such comments and make a fool of yourself :-) your call, but the community here knows that to be true, stamping all over respected members to hate Alonso is a good idea though, carry on as you are :-)

Greig
25th July 2010, 23:37
A miopic, sententious comeback you may have written to which I will nevertheless reply: not blind, dear one, but very well-assessed and based on enough years of objectively observing Alonso and his various and petulant machinations in F1.

Not that you'll believe me, of course. Ah well...:-D

I bow to your superior years of watching then :-) Love is blind.....

Tifosi
25th July 2010, 23:39
And blind hatred of Alonso is not any better :thumb

I agree. I don't hate Alonso. I never said that anywhere so why imply it? :-!

Don't even think it's his fault to be honest.

Greig
25th July 2010, 23:40
I agree. I don't hate Alonso. I never said that anywhere so why imply it? :-!

Don't even think it's his fault to be honest.

Wasn't talking to you? hence never quoted you?

Vittorio
25th July 2010, 23:40
Just wondering. What was the worst thing today? What Ferrari did, or the fact they got caught? Because what Ferrari did today, everybody else is also doing. Itīs a part of the game.

Gee, I don't know - maybe it's the blatant and clearly cynical way in which it was all done? The monumentally stupid strategic risk planning of it all, huh? No? Or maybe the fact that Ferrari are the big loser after all this, even if 'everybody else is also doing' it? Whaddaya think, huh?

Or maybe you're one of the as-long-as-we-win-at-all-costs-its-all-perfectly-okay brigade? Maybe I'm being too unfair, huh?

Gee, wow, good golly gosh and all the rest of it.

Vittorio
25th July 2010, 23:41
I bow to your superior years of watching then :-) Love is blind.....

Jesus wept

Greig
25th July 2010, 23:42
Jesus wept

No religious comments, thanks :-D

Vittorio
25th July 2010, 23:42
As I said perhaps you should read some posts before you make such comments and make a fool of yourself :-) your call, but the community here knows that to be true, stamping all over respected members to hate Alonso is a good idea though, carry on as you are :-)

"Stamping all over respected members" - oh, puhleeze, get over yourself and stop being all poofy woofy and reverential about people who just happen to have opinions like you or I or anyone else.
Get real!

Greig
25th July 2010, 23:43
"Stamping all over respected members" - oh, puhleeze, get over yourself and stop being all poofy woofy and reverential about people who just happen to have opinions like you or I or anyone else.
Get real!

You get real, quickly :-)

Alonsomaniac
25th July 2010, 23:45
Since you asked, yes I do. Not that I think he demanded it over the radio (althought those typically petulant mutterings of "this is ridiculous" earlier in the race spoke volumes about his frustration, which was not at all Massa's fault nor concern), but Alonso has come into Ferrari with enough hype and enough sense of entitlement to engender this type of preferential treatment within Ferrari's management. Alonso's forceful and pedantic character, coupled with a weak and incompetent team boss like Domenicali, does create the type of strategically inept and even dangerously disloyal atmosphere that allows for the types of fiasco that occurred today.

Alonso is not a team player. Alonso is all about himself and has always been that way. He showed that time and time again at Renault and, most graphically, in the chaos that was his year at McLaren when he got nicely whipped a lot of the time by a young rookie. His ego cannot take it. He can't help who he is. Most of the time, that ugly and divisive part of his character can be below the radar and kept in check, but on a day like this, it just comes out in spades.

His cynical behaviour at the post-race press conference spoke volumes to me. It was vintage Alonso and Ferrari allowed it all to happen. Shame on them all.

Anyone who believes that today's team orders were completely without Alonso's full approval and even insistence, tacit or otherwize, is frankly naive or blindly pro-Alonso.

First of all, ofcourse Alonso is not a teamplayer. I have never seen a champion who is.
But I think you on the other hand are quite naive to think that one driver in his first year with a team can be able to let the team do everything he wants them to.
In that case Alonso would be a miracle or the whole Ferrari organisation would be a bunch of morons.
Neither is the case. Just like any other driver before him Alonso is just an employee. A very talented employee who can be of great importance for the team , yes, but still an employee who simply will get kicked out if he does not deliver.
Your apparent dislike for Alonso makes you see him much bigger then he in reality is: a very fast and ofcourse egocentric driver who only has one goal and one desire: win.
Oh, and about the " this is ridiculous" : at that moment in the race he was clearly faster and tried to overtake Felipe who closed the door. At that moment Alonso just said what he must have thought: " I am much faster and my teammate blocks me while he must know that I can go faster and Vettel is not far behind - this can get us in trouble - why doesn't Felipe see that. This is ridiculous"

Vittorio
25th July 2010, 23:46
[QUOTE=Curbs;616166]Yeah, and to support a team just when it suits you isnīt the only way either.[/QUOTE

Trust me, oh misguided soul, but NO ONE and I mean NO ONE can accuse me or anyone else who has supported this team for over 30 years or more of only supporing it 'when it suits them'!!! Most of the 1980s and early 1990s, anyone?!

What is so threatening to you about criticism of a team that one loves?

Vittorio
25th July 2010, 23:54
First of all, ofcourse Alonso is not a teamplayer. I have never seen a champion who is.
But I think you on the other hand are quite naive to think that one driver in his first year with a team can be able to let the team do everything he wants them to.
In that case Alonso would be a miracle or the whole Ferrari organisation would be a bunch of morons.
Neither is the case. Just like any other driver before him Alonso is just an employee. A very talented employee who can be of great importance for the team , yes, but still an employee who simply will get kicked out if he does not deliver.
Your apparent dislike for Alonso makes you see him much bigger then he in reality is: a very fast and ofcourse egocentric driver who only has one goal and one desire: win.
Oh, and about the " this is ridiculous" : at that moment in the race he was clearly faster and tried to overtake Felipe who closed the door. At that moment Alonso just said what he must have thought: " I am much faster and my teammate blocks me while he must know that I can go faster and Vettel is not far behind - this can get us in trouble - why doesn't Felipe see that. This is ridiculous"

I see, you make so much sense. Of course Alonso is the only with a deep desire to win races. Certainly Massa has no such desire - or right. And of course he's nothing more than a mere employee, even if he did come into Ferrari on an enormous cloud of anticipation and pre-season hype and was the sole reason why Raikonnen was so unceremoniously shown the door at Ferrari. Of course, you speak such wise words.

Shucks, you see me for what I am - someone who dislikes Alonso and sees him for what he is, talented as he might be. I know, I am a prejudiced, horrible person for not liking Alonso and for thinking him divisive and a prima donna in any team he's in - Renault, Mclaren and now Ferrari. Naughty me, naughty Vittorio. Whereas you, Alonsomaniac, are clearly an ode to objectivity and high-minded rectidude on this issue.

What was I thinking?

Alonsomaniac
25th July 2010, 23:56
[QUOTE=Curbs;616166]Yeah, and to support a team just when it suits you isnīt the only way either.[/QUOTE

Trust me, oh misguided soul, but NO ONE and I mean NO ONE can accuse me or anyone else who has supported this team for over 30 years or more of only supporing it 'when it suits them'!!! Most of the 1980s and early 1990s, anyone?!

What is so threatening to you about criticism of a team that one loves?

What you do is not critisizing. What you do is point blank bashing the team and in particular one of it's members - Alonso.
I myself was not happy either with the way things went today - and wrote this in a few threads too. Nobody has a problem with that, but the way you do it.....

Greig
25th July 2010, 23:56
I see, you make so much sense. Of course Alonso is the only with a deep desire to win races. Certainly Massa has no such desire - or right. And of course he's nothing more than a mere employee, even if he did come into Ferrari on an enormous cloud of anticipation and pre-season hype and was the sole reason why Raikonnen was so unceremoniously shown the door at Ferrari. Of course, you speak such wise words.

Shucks, you see me for what I am - someone who dislikes Alonso and sees him for what he is, talented as he might be. I know, I am a prejudiced, horrible person for not liking Alonso and for thinking him divisive and a prima donna in any team he's in - Renault, Mclaren and now Ferrari. Naughty me, naughty Vittorio. Whereas you, Alonsomaniac, are clearly an ode to objectivity and high-minded rectidude on this issue.

What was I thinking?

LOL Kimi was removed for the sole reason of being not good enough for Ferrari nothing more or less, is that your issue, another disgruntled Kimi fan who just can't get over it :-)

It's good to see you stamping your 30 year of authority onto us though :-) can't wait for the next insight into how to be a Tifosi

Alonsomaniac
25th July 2010, 23:59
I see, you make so much sense. Of course Alonso is the only with a deep desire to win races. Certainly Massa has no such desire - or right. And of course he's nothing more than a mere employee, even if he did come into Ferrari on an enormous cloud of anticipation and pre-season hype and was the sole reason why Raikonnen was so unceremoniously shown the door at Ferrari. Of course, you speak such wise words.

Shucks, you see me for what I am - someone who dislikes Alonso and sees him for what he is, talented as he might be. I know, I am a prejudiced, horrible person for not liking Alonso and for thinking him divisive and a prima donna in any team he's in - Renault, Mclaren and now Ferrari. Naughty me, naughty Vittorio. Whereas you, Alonsomaniac, are clearly an ode to objectivity and high-minded rectidude on this issue.

What was I thinking?

There is this thread you know, it's called RESPECT. I started it some time ago. Maybe you should read it someday. All about communication between members and stuff. Some here found it quite interesting.

Curbs
26th July 2010, 00:01
Right now you are supporting a driver who stabbed the team youīre supposed to support in the back. You are crying about Alonso being at Ferrari. Is that support in your eyes?

I supported Massa in 2008. God I felt for him and the team in Brasil. But from today, I really feel nothing for him. He can put his sunshine smile on for all he wants. What he did today is not ok.
He and Smedley alone has made Ferrari look very very stupid (for doing something that all teams are doing)
They given the whole world a chanse to spit on Ferrari. Theyīve alone have put our titlefight in jeopardy.
So, has Massa acted like a TEAMPLAYER in your eyes?

Fanatic
26th July 2010, 00:01
First of I am a Massa supporter.

Today wasnt about the team because they were already 1 & 2, it was a whinny spoil Primma Donna who has no character, he is hypocritical saying about the team. Massa is a team player, Alonso is all about himself if this was inverse situation what do you think Alonso would have done, I constantly read Spanish sport news and even the same countrymen of Alonso dislike him almost hate him.

Besides money drivers wants to make history and only the ones who win races do it, there is nothing better for a driver to win that's why they are there for.

Before someone jump on me saying I am an Alonso hater I am not but his attitude is really shameful.

Greig
26th July 2010, 00:04
First of I am a Massa supporter.

Today wasnt about the team because they were already 1 & 2, it was a whinny spoil Primma Donna who has no character, he is hypocritical saying about the team. Massa is a team player, Alonso is all about himself if this was inverse situation what do you think Alonso would have done, I constantly read Spanish sport news and even the same countrymen of Alonso dislike him almost hate him.

Besides money drivers wants to make history and only the ones who win races do it, there is nothing better for a driver to win that's why they are there for.

Before someone jump on me saying I am an Alonso hater I am not but his attitude is really shameful.

So Alonso made the call? Alonso demanded it be made? same Alonso that never got them to make a call in Australia? Or China? Yeah that's right you can blame it on Alonso all you like, sadly Stefano already said the decision was made pre-race by Luca Di, go ask him why.....

Alonsomaniac
26th July 2010, 00:09
First of I am a Massa supporter.

Today wasnt about the team because they were already 1 & 2, it was a whinny spoil Primma Donna who has no character, he is hypocritical saying about the team. Massa is a team player, Alonso is all about himself if this was inverse situation what do you think Alonso would have done, I constantly read Spanish sport news and even the same countrymen of Alonso dislike him almost hate him.

Besides money drivers wants to make history and only the ones who win races do it, there is nothing better for a driver to win that's why they are there for.

Before someone jump on me saying I am an Alonso hater I am not but his attitude is really shameful.

If his countrymen hate him so much then why has F1 become such a big sport in Spain since FA is there? Before Fernando it was all about MotoGp, and no F1...............

Alonsomaniac
26th July 2010, 00:11
I think this is going to be a non issue discussion, so I'm going to bed now, it's 2 in the morning.
Tomorrow there will be a new day, with new chances and new discussions, but one thing will surely still be there: Ferrari.
Goodnight.

Hermann
26th July 2010, 00:15
First of I am a Massa supporter.

Today wasnt about the team because they were already 1 & 2, it was a whinny spoil Primma Donna who has no character, he is hypocritical saying about the team. Massa is a team player, Alonso is all about himself if this was inverse situation what do you think Alonso would have done, I constantly read Spanish sport news and even the same countrymen of Alonso dislike him almost hate him.

Besides money drivers wants to make history and only the ones who win races do it, there is nothing better for a driver to win that's why they are there for.

Before someone jump on me saying I am an Alonso hater I am not but his attitude is really shameful.

Yes, some do. The other half are fans. You know, you can find that everywhere, its not an argument for your attitude.

I am german, and when Schumacher was driving for Ferrari, the country was actually devided in two parts, the same like it is now about Fernando. The one half loved him, the other half hated him. He also got a lot of bad german press at times.

Also, in this case, i wouldn't say Massa was such a 'teamplayer'. He did allow Fernando to pass him, but he made sure it would be obvious. This is a two- edged sword. And when he did that, he was not thinking about the 'team'. He was thinking about himself giving up a potential race win.

No F1 driver is 'holier' than the other. They are all very competitive, and they all have their 'moments'.

redb
26th July 2010, 00:20
First of I am a Massa supporter.

Today wasnt about the team because they were already 1 & 2, it was a whinny spoil Primma Donna who has no character, he is hypocritical saying about the team. Massa is a team player, Alonso is all about himself if this was inverse situation what do you think Alonso would have done, I constantly read Spanish sport news and even the same countrymen of Alonso dislike him almost hate him.

Besides money drivers wants to make history and only the ones who win races do it, there is nothing better for a driver to win that's why they are there for.

Before someone jump on me saying I am an Alonso hater I am not but his attitude is really shameful.

So let me get this clear, besides the fact that Ferrari did get a 1/2 finish which benefits the team, they also made their points leading driver to arrive in first, wow...this is boinkers, how dare ferrari suppport in this latter half of the championship the guy who has the most possibilities to win the WDC, I mean, seriously!!!!

I demand this non sense to stop, and I hope they start in Brazil 2007, with Kimi allowed to surpassed Massa in his home race while he was winning it so Kimi could get the WDC, how dare they do a China 2008, when it was the opposite, and Kimi allowed Massa to pass so he could fight for the WDC!!!!

Shame on Ferrari for trying to get both titles...........

MASSUM THE GREATEST
26th July 2010, 00:22
So let me get this clear, besides the fact that Ferrari did get a 1/2 finish which benefits the team, they also made their points leading driver to arrive in first, wow...this is boinkers, how dare ferrari suppport in this latter half of the championship the guy who has the most possibilities to win the WDC, I mean, seriously!!!!

I demand this non sense to stop, and I hope they start in Brazil 2007, with Kimi allowed to surpassed Massa in his home race while he was winning it so Kimi could get the WDC, how dare they do a China 2008, when it was the opposite, and Kimi allowed Massa to pass so he could fight for the WDC!!!!

Shame on Ferrari for trying to get both titles...........

Finally, someone who talks some sense.

Fanatic
26th July 2010, 04:52
So Alonso made the call? Alonso demanded it be made? same Alonso that never got them to make a call in Australia? Or China? Yeah that's right you can blame it on Alonso all you like, sadly Stefano already said the decision was made pre-race by Luca Di, go ask him why.....

So voicing out this is ridiculous to his team staff when he was 2nd means nothing.

Fanatic
26th July 2010, 04:54
If his countrymen hate him so much then why has F1 become such a big sport in Spain since FA is there? Before Fernando it was all about MotoGp, and no F1...............

Of course not all will dislike the man, I read the news and didn't understand why they dislike him but I do now get the idea.

theodorus8864
26th July 2010, 04:57
I wonder how happy Christian Horner, Martin Whitmarsh, Charlie Whiting, Hamilton, Webber, Vettel, Button, and all other rivals... seeing us having all these conversation. How funny the Ferrari fans has splitted before the team itself. Can't we just get over it for God sake?!!! The next race is just around the corner. We can't afford debating all these shits for the whole season.

Fanatic
26th July 2010, 05:03
So let me get this clear, besides the fact that Ferrari did get a 1/2 finish which benefits the team, they also made their points leading driver to arrive in first, wow...this is boinkers, how dare ferrari suppport in this latter half of the championship the guy who has the most possibilities to win the WDC, I mean, seriously!!!!

I demand this non sense to stop, and I hope they start in Brazil 2007, with Kimi allowed to surpassed Massa in his home race while he was winning it so Kimi could get the WDC, how dare they do a China 2008, when it was the opposite, and Kimi allowed Massa to pass so he could fight for the WDC!!!!

Shame on Ferrari for trying to get both titles...........

Sport competition should be fair, let the best man win, been faster doesn't give you the right to pass your team mate both pilot are there to compete in fair play and win with their effort and skills, at least it should be. Anyway after reading the post it is clear fair play isn't as valuable as it used to be. Also this is a complaint on all teams that do this.

Fanatic
26th July 2010, 05:07
Yes, some do. The other half are fans. You know, you can find that everywhere, its not an argument for your attitude.

I am german, and when Schumacher was driving for Ferrari, the country was actually devided in two parts, the same like it is now about Fernando. The one half loved him, the other half hated him. He also got a lot of bad german press at times.

Also, in this case, i wouldn't say Massa was such a 'teamplayer'. He did allow Fernando to pass him, but he made sure it would be obvious. This is a two- edged sword. And when he did that, he was not thinking about the 'team'. He was thinking about himself giving up a potential race win.

No F1 driver is 'holier' than the other. They are all very competitive, and they all have their 'moments'.

Well I suppose the man has feelings, what do you think Alonso would have done in Massa's place.

Fanatic
26th July 2010, 05:09
I wonder how happy Christian Horner, Martin Whitmarsh, Charlie Whiting, Hamilton, Webber, Vettel, Button, and all other rivals... seeing us having all these conversation. How funny the Ferrari fans has splitted before the team itself. Can't we just get over it for God sake?!!! The next race is just around the corner. We can't afford debating all these shits for the whole season.

This is just the heat of the moment tomorrow is another day.

Aussie
26th July 2010, 05:57
Schumacher says, teamorder is ok.

Curbs
26th July 2010, 07:54
So voicing out this is ridiculous to his team staff when he was 2nd means nothing.

Why shouldnīt he? It was very ridiculous. He was being held up by his teammate who also in that moment nearly drove him off track. A teammate who has absolutley nothing to do with the WDC titel this year.

Stormsearcher
26th July 2010, 08:19
I see, you make so much sense. Of course Alonso is the only with a deep desire to ........................ode to objectivity and high-minded rectidude on this issue.

What was I thinking?


Ferrari got the 1-2. Maximum possible points. Leading driver got closer to driver leading the championships. Isnt this BEST FOR THE TEAM??????????

Why exactly are you here if Ferraris methods are bothering you so much? You are just trolling arent you? Come on.. you can tell us. Dont be shy. :-G

sv_godspeed
26th July 2010, 08:48
in my view, this is not about Felipe or Fernando. its about my favourite team doing something stupid, blatant and risky - already been fined, with a referral to the WMSC, a possibility of losing all the points and facing all this nonsense in the media and otherwise, all for what? we got a 1-2 and would have got a 1-2 anyway.

it would have been fitting for Felipe to take the win on the anniversary of his accident. Ferrari would have been basking in the glory of a dominant 1-2 and rejoincing on the return of Felipe to winning ways. instead, here we are, potentially with no points from a race that was completely dominated by us. given the car and the form that we had this weekend, Fernando will take the WDC by a mile in the end.

was it worth the risk?

Tobes
26th July 2010, 08:52
Storm in a tea-cup... :lou

There is no comparison with Austria '02, Fernando is not leading the WDC by a substantial margin and the season is now more than half way through.

Personally I do think it's the right thing to have done (maybe should've done it in Turkey too) i've never had a problem with team orders, it's a team sport and it's a system that served us very well in the Schumacher era, Fast Eddie, Rubens and Massa all knew their place, having two equal drivers fighting for a single prize doesn't work, you only need remember Senna and Prost or Alonso and Hamilton and during this season Webber and Vettel have both cost each other very valuable points
From the moment he arrived we all knew Alonso is the Ferrari WDC in waiting, not Massa, and we all know he's come to Maranello to win races and titles, not to help Massa win, but to win some WDC's for himself and leave a Schumacher-esque legacy, and like Schumacher in his day he's the best pilot out there and in reality our best hope of a WDC and should be treated as such if we want to win the WDC.

Whether is was the right thing to do or not only time will tell, if Fernando wins the WDC by less than seven points then we'll all look back on this race as being the race that won him the WDC, but should Massa lose the WDC by less than seven points this will be the race that lost Massa the WDC.

The fact is team orders have always been a part of F1, it was way we went about it that was pretty cras and rather transparent, we'll just have to take our medicine and look forward to Hungary which is fortunately only a week away...

...like I said, storm in a tea-cup, all this will be forgotton by FP1... :-D

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 09:01
Regardless of your opinions on whether or not Ferrari did the right thing as far as the championship is concerned, it's pretty clear that we shot ourselves in the foot yesterday.

Pretending that we didn't open a can of worms and bring an enormous amount of pressure on ourselves by doing what we did is really just sticking your head in the sand.

It's very difficult to sit and watch the team that you love repeatedly lying through their teeth after a race in such a blatant and obvious way.

Looking at it totally objectively, it was pretty clear by the way that Rob Smedley and Massa reacted, and the body language of the team on the pitwall after the decision was made (as reported on the BBC feed anyway) that we hadn't properly prepared for that eventuality as a team.

The outcome was that we were made to look very unprofessional and very stupid in front of the world, which is effectively a gift to Red Bull and McLaren.

The last time I felt this way was when Michael Schumacher parked his car at Rascasse. The difference then was that that was Michael's decision and there's no way as a team we really could have prepared for him doing that. In this case however, the possibility of Massa leading the race was a very real possibility from the outset.

My question is therefore, as a team - why were we so unprepared for that eventuality?

Curbs
26th July 2010, 09:07
I think Greig mentioned it and Iīve read it in other places, but I canīt find a source.
But that Luca told Stefano pre race what Massa should do if this was to happen.
If this is true, then I think there are at least 2 people who should look for new jobs.

Greig
26th July 2010, 09:13
I think Greig mentioned it and Iīve read it in other places, but I canīt find a source.
But that Luca told Stefano pre race what Massa should do if this was to happen.
If this is true, then I think there are at least 2 people who should look for new jobs.

It was live on the BBC right after the race Stefano was on the phone to Luca Di and when the BBC spoke to him he said the decision about the result had been discussed with the President before the race, so from that I assume Luca Di had given the ok to switch positions if as expected Massa got a better start from the clean side.

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 09:20
It was live on the BBC right after the race Stefano was on the phone to Luca Di and when the BBC spoke to him he said the decision about the result had been discussed with the President before the race, so from that I assume Luca Di had given the ok to switch positions if as expected Massa got a better start from the clean side.

OK. In that case, it's simply not good enough to blame Massa and Smedley (as Curbs does). People don't suddenly turn from being professionals to being unprofessional in one race. The team failed to manage the understanding of one of its drivers and his engineer. Calling for their heads is missing the point completely.

Curbs
26th July 2010, 09:22
It was live on the BBC right after the race Stefano was on the phone to Luca Di and when the BBC spoke to him he said the decision about the result had been discussed with the President before the race, so from that I assume Luca Di had given the ok to switch positions if as expected Massa got a better start from the clean side.

Thanks. Iīve read it somewere else to.
Hmm, I wonder what Luca will tell sunshine :-D God job. You want a new yellow 458 or a white one?

Greig
26th July 2010, 09:23
OK. In that case, it's simply not good enough to blame Massa and Smedley (as Curbs does). People don't suddenly turn from being professionals to being unprofessional in one race. The team failed to manage the understanding of one of its drivers and his engineer. Calling for their heads is missing the point completely.

I agree, Ferrari put Rob in a terrible position and Felipe as well, no blame should lie any further than Luca Di and Stefano if people want to pin the blame IMO, but so far I see very little anger aimed at the top brass, but plenty to Massa, Rob and Alonso, which to me is just people following their own personal agenda and not looking at it objectively.

theodorus8864
26th July 2010, 09:43
Too much sentiment around the air. I hope Ferrari won't forget their car development. No time for dispute, the race schedule is on.

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 09:44
Why should anybody be blamed for the incident? The team orders rule is pants IMHO and very difficult to assess and administer any infringement. It just does not sit well with the idea of a team and a strategy to win both titles

Greig
26th July 2010, 09:46
Why should anybody be blamed for the incident? The team orders rule is pants IMHO and very difficult to assess and administer any infringement. It just does not sit well with the idea of a team and a strategy to win both titles

I agree it's a stupid rule and every team is using orders, but until the rule is removed then what we did is going to attract attention, Ferrari should be leading FOTA to remove the silly rule.

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 09:53
I agree, Ferrari put Rob in a terrible position and Felipe as well, no blame should lie any further than Luca Di and Stefano if people want to pin the blame IMO, but so far I see very little anger aimed at the top brass, but plenty to Massa, Rob and Alonso, which to me is just people following their own personal agenda and not looking at it objectively.

Obviously it's hard not to be emotional after something like that happens and it's easier to be more objective in the cold light of day. :-??

It would seem based on the reactions of everybody in our team as it happened that only Luca D and Stefano knew what the plan would be in such an eventuality. They clearly had some prearranged signal for Massa but it is very clear from their reactions on the day that they weren't expecting that to happen in reality so when it did their heads dropped and it was both clunky and catastrophically managed. That has to be Stefano's fault i'm afraid. He has to manage the team and all of its members expectations.

Also, I know it's all about winning titles at the end of the day, but on a human level, they couldn't possibly have done anything worse to Massa in terms of his own personal motivation for this season, or indeed to the public's perceptions of Ferrari's relationship with Massa. It was pointlessly thrown away for the sake of seven points.

In that respect, we shot ourselves in the foot big-time, not only with the publicity and ensuing poo storm which will plague us for months but also the damage it has caused within the team, our drivers and their crews.

The silly thing is, I totally understand Ferrari's approach to this (even though I think they did it far too soon in the season). If Ferrari are putting all their effort behind Alonso now, then there is even more reason to make sure that Massa and his team know this, and have reconciled themselves to this before you put them in a situation like yesterday's.

I'm more upset about what they did to themselves, which is to make Ferrari look like cheats and liars, to make Alonso look like the spawn of the devil, and Massa a cross between a coward and a victim. All of which are unfair and totally unnecessary.

If we had managed the situation properly, everyone would have known where they stood (including the poor buggers watching the race who felt cheated out of a result) and we would have had a cleverly constructed 1-2. As it stands however, we have a whirlwind of internal and external politics to deal with now.

The effect yesterday will have had on Massa is substantial too. How can that be beneficial when you want to win a WCC?

I'm Just really disappointed that we've taken a massive step forward in one respect, and in another an equally massive step backwards. :-??

F2002
26th July 2010, 09:58
I totally agree with what Ferrari have done at Hockenheim:

1. Alonso was, at that point, clearly quicker (perhaps "at that point" is generous - don't forget he outqualified Massa by half a second and was consistently quicker throughout the weekend);

2. Only one driver is able to win the WDC, and if there is any chance for Ferrari, it's clearly with Alonso;

3. There was a serious risk of a collision between the two cars - it almost happened a few laps earlier;

4. Whatever anyone is saying about this move having damaged the reputation of the sport, etc. etc. etc., Alonso winning has made the championship more interesting - which is what fans want to see. So, this was not only in the best interest of the team, but it turned up to be in the best interest of the sport;

Having said all that, I believe that there must have been a million and one other ways of how to get the two drivers to switch position. The way it was communicated and implemented made it overly suspicious and too obviously a team order.

As with many other occasions, we have a great car and two great drivers, but poor management unfortunately. If they had let Kubica past at Valencia, and managed this one slightly better, we would have more points and no controversy.

In the end, though, a commanding victory - the car is back where it belongs, which is the most important thing.

theodorus8864
26th July 2010, 10:12
Just imagine, if yesterday we let both cars fight at equal basis, we will see the Ferrari version of Turkish GP incident. Perhaps we will even see one of our driver drawing a sign of brain-circle thingy on track. Let's see, which one will be more ashamed? this one or what we have now? Have your thoughts.

Kingdom Hearts
26th July 2010, 10:46
Just imagine, if yesterday we let both cars fight at equal basis, we will see the Ferrari version of Turkish GP incident. Perhaps we will even see one of our driver drawing a sign of brain-circle thingy on track. Let's see, which one will be more ashamed? this one or what we have now? Have your thoughts.


In that case, people will ask Ferrari why they didn't ask Felipe to let Alonso pass to avoid a crash. Sadly that's how evrythings works, 100% hypocresy

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 10:53
In that case, people will ask Ferrari why they didn't ask Felipe to let Alonso pass to avoid a crash. Sadly that's how evrythings works, 100% hypocresy

Exactly. It was appallingly handled. Why not ask Massa to let Alonso back through almost immediately if it was always the intention to make it Team Alonso? Why wait until 20 laps before the end to turn him into the No. 2 driver and kill his motivation for the rest of the season. They dumped on him. Full stop. Stupid decision, bad management & the repercussions are enormous. Some can pretend everything is hunky-dory however because to them, it doesn't really matter how we conduct our business.

Greig
26th July 2010, 10:58
Exactly. It was appallingly handled. Why not ask Massa to let Alonso back through almost immediately if it was always the intention to make it Team Alonso? Why wait until 20 laps before the end to turn him into the No. 2 driver and kill his motivation for the rest of the season. They dumped on him. Full stop. Stupid decision, bad management & the repercussions are enormous. Some can pretend everything is hunky-dory however because to them, it doesn't really matter how we conduct our business.

Team Alonso? come off it LOL, I know you are more sided to Massa but come on we can at least be honest and admit Massa has not performed too well this year and it is highly probable that he is not a challenge for the WDC, could you really see him beating Alonso, Vettel, Webber, and Lewis in the remaining 8 races, would be quite a remarkable turn around bearing in mind his seasons form.

People acting like we have ripped a title away from him is just too much for me to take :-)

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 10:59
Exactly. It was appallingly handled. Why not ask Massa to let Alonso back through almost immediately if it was always the intention to make it Team Alonso? Why wait until 20 laps before the end to turn him into the No. 2 driver and kill his motivation for the rest of the season. They dumped on him. Full stop. Stupid decision, bad management & the repercussions are enormous. Some can pretend everything is hunky-dory however because to them, it doesn't really matter how we conduct our business.

Not easy to make the call in the heat of the moment and the ultimate decision may have come from Luca D. Ultimately it was the right decision and everyone will get over it. Some will take a little longer it seems.

theodorus8864
26th July 2010, 11:12
Exactly. It was appallingly handled. Why not ask Massa to let Alonso back through almost immediately if it was always the intention to make it Team Alonso? Why wait until 20 laps before the end to turn him into the No. 2 driver and kill his motivation for the rest of the season. They dumped on him. Full stop. Stupid decision, bad management & the repercussions are enormous. Some can pretend everything is hunky-dory however because to them, it doesn't really matter how we conduct our business.

Massa did have his chance to pull over a gap with soft tyres when Alonso pitted in for hard tyres. And when both cars on hard tyres, Massa can't match up the pace he used to have with soft ones. Meanwhile Alonso was indeed faster and more comfortable with hard tyres. His time was within Massa's. Alonso was caught on trail behind Massa, and Vettel has made his way to close the gap back at Alonso. The team needed to react. And that's how things happened.

Stupid decision, bad management, you name it. In the end we successfully brought back 1-2 from the race.

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 11:19
Team Alonso? come off it LOL, I know you are more sided to Massa but come on we can at least be honest and admit Massa has not performed too well this year and it is highly probable that he is not a challenge for the WDC, could you really see him beating Alonso, Vettel, Webber, and Lewis in the remaining 8 races, would be quite a remarkable turn around bearing in mind his seasons form.

People acting like we have ripped a title away from him is just too much for me to take :-)

He's not going to be allowed to have that chance is he? "clearly" as DC would say.

Team Orders when it is still mathematically possible for Massa to win the championship is a clear indication that they are not entertaining that idea in the slightest. Therefore, Ferrari is now devoted to Alonso winning the world championship in a style similar to Schumacher. I can see why Ferrari are doing this of course.

My issue is that they had to inform him of this during a live race that he was leading. It's not about denying Massa the WDC, its about pulling him from a race win that may be his only chance this season.

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 11:33
I'm sure you'll be rejoicing at the end of the season, if we bring home the WDC with a thin points margin regardless of whether Felipe gets a GP victory or not this year

Greig
26th July 2010, 11:34
He's not going to be allowed to have that chance is he? "clearly" as DC would say.

Team Orders when it is still mathematically possible for Massa to win the championship is a clear indication that they are not entertaining that idea in the slightest. Therefore, Ferrari is now devoted to Alonso winning the world championship in a style similar to Schumacher. I can see why Ferrari are doing this of course.

My issue is that they had to inform him of this during a live race that he was leading. It's not about denying Massa the WDC, its about pulling him from a race win that may be his only chance this season.

And you are puzzled why they don't think Massa could win the title even without maths?

What is more important to the team, a single win for Massa or a title for Alonso? I am sure its a easy answer, we all know Massa won the race, does he need a stat to show it? You even say yourself this might have been his only chance of a win this season, so clearly you as well as Ferrari don't believe him winning yesterday could lead him to a title.

Neno
26th July 2010, 11:39
This Ferrari decision makes me wonder if Santander bank wasn't behind Alonso ,would they tell Massa to move over??? Or if somehow (lets just assume that ) in the next 3-4 races Massa wins and earns more points than Alonso, so his chances for WDC are greater, will Ferrari tell Alonso in a similiral situation to move over for Felipe??? Hmmmm.....

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 12:10
And you are puzzled why they don't think Massa could win the title even without maths?

What is more important to the team, a single win for Massa or a title for Alonso? I am sure its a easy answer, we all know Massa won the race, does he need a stat to show it? You even say yourself this might have been his only chance of a win this season, so clearly you as well as Ferrari don't believe him winning yesterday could lead him to a title.

The significance of yesterday for him in professional and personal terms wasn't as important to Ferrari as the 7 points banker and this was made clear. That's the situation and we all know it now. I'd have more respect for them if they'd handled that less catastrophically tbh :-).

Greig
26th July 2010, 12:13
The significance of yesterday for him in professional and personal terms wasn't as important to Ferrari as the 7 points banker and this was made clear. That's the situation and we all know it now. I'd have more respect for them if they'd handled that less catastrophically tbh :-).

When has Ferrari ever been different?

How do you think they should have handled it then? told him pre-race he is no2 and to move, that would not affect him? Is coming 2nd in a Ferrari such a bad thing? and I bet he would have taken that pre-race all things considered, but if Ferrari have really done Massa and Rob a great dis-service then I expect their resignation letters are in the mail already :-)

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 12:16
"stupid decision, repurcussions, bad management"

Hardly, my rose tinted spectacles suggest otherwise "Ferrari 1 2" :-)

Altharis
26th July 2010, 12:34
Anyway, It was Santander victory :)

theodorus8864
26th July 2010, 12:49
So this is it; a finger-pointing game. Why some people here find it so hard to accept the fact? So after the Massa incident, what's next? Ya all gonna stop being a Ferrari fan? This really puts everyone into test. Can't take the heat, then off. This game isn't for those weak heart.

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 12:49
When has Ferrari ever been different?

How do you think they should have handled it then? told him pre-race he is no2 and to move, that would not affect him? Is coming 2nd in a Ferrari such a bad thing? and I bet he would have taken that pre-race all things considered, but if Ferrari have really done Massa and Rob a great dis-service then I expect their resignation letters are in the mail already :-)

Yes, maybe then it wouldn't have looked so obvious to the world. You only had to see his post fix lap times to see that his heart had gone. We wouldnt be having this discussion if they'd done a proper job. Telling them in the middle of the race was what caused all the issues we now have. Imagine how you'd have acted if you started the race truly believing you'd be allowed to win it and then finding out that you weren't all along.

Why would you expect their resignation letters?

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 12:51
So this is it; a finger-pointing game. Why some people here find it so hard to accept the fact? So after the Massa incident, what's next? Ya all gonna stop being a Ferrari fan? This really puts everyone into test. Can't take the heat, then off. This game isn't for those weak heart.

I love it when people lecture on what a Ferrari fan should be. It's so telling of the individual. ;-)

Tech_Skill
26th July 2010, 12:55
I'm sure you'll be rejoicing at the end of the season, if we bring home the WDC with a thin points margin regardless of whether Felipe gets a GP victory or not this year

If we didnt do the switch yesterday and Alonso was to lose the WDC by a few points, we'd be the running Joke of F1. The problem here isnt what we done, its how we done it, I love Rob Smedley to bits, but someone needs to have a chat with him cos his behavour yesterday was a joke, he is the reason we are going to the WMC.

sav_pap
26th July 2010, 13:00
At last. Smiles again...

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 13:01
If we didnt do the switch yesterday and Alonso was to lose the WDC by a few points, we'd be the running Joke of F1. The problem here isnt what we done, its how we done it, I love Rob Smedley to bits, but someone needs to have a chat with him cos his behavour yesterday was a joke, he is the reason we are going to the WMC.

Someone should have had a chat with him before the race dude and told him the situation. That way, Massa could have aimed at Vettel instead of wasting his time taking the lead.

Greig
26th July 2010, 13:02
Someone should have had a chat with him before the race dude and told him the situation. That way, Massa could have aimed at Vettel instead of wasting his time taking the lead.

And that would not de-motivate him then? there was no easy way to do it, no way they could do it without annoying Felipe sadly.

theodorus8864
26th July 2010, 13:03
I love it when people lecture on what a Ferrari fan should be. It's so telling of the individual. ;-)

For sure, the lesson which is needed the most especially for 'those' who are too bias over one side and stop looking a bigger picture. This lecture definitely needs to get in 'their' heads.

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 13:04
And that would not de-motivate him then? there was no easy way to do it, no way they could do it without annoying Felipe sadly.

If they'd done it way before the race Greig, both Ferrari and Massa's reputation would still be intact.

Greig
26th July 2010, 13:06
If they'd done it way before the race Greig, both Ferrari and Massa's reputation would still be intact.

Don't see how this has affected Massa's reputation, enhanced it maybe :-) but still would he be de-motivated to go for it if told before hand that he can't win if a 1-2?

redb
26th July 2010, 13:15
about the only possitive out of this is how the English press is frothing out of the mouth at this, as if Mclaren are such squeaky clean team....:lol

Shows how scare they are of a resurgent Ferrari

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 13:20
Don't see how this has affected Massa's reputation, enhanced it maybe :-) but still would he be de-motivated to go for it if told before hand that he can't win if a 1-2?

He's a pro, not a puppet. :-??

See Brazilian press for details on his reputation.....

Greig
26th July 2010, 13:26
He's a pro, not a puppet. :-??

See Brazilian press for details on his reputation.....

What have the Brazilian press said? All drivers are puppets somewhat :-)

Why did he move if not a puppet?

Tech_Skill
26th July 2010, 13:29
about the only possitive out of this is how the English press is frothing out of the mouth at this, as if Mclaren are such squeaky clean team....:lol

Shows how scare they are of a resurgent Ferrari

It really does, they are crapping it, i promise you, anyhow Alonso was to win in hungrary or close in on the championship lead, it would be full scale panic, i promise you they will be begging to WMC to dock him points.

It's just like the good old days when Schumacher took a sh!t on anyone who ever drove in Britain from 1994-2006

racingbradley
26th July 2010, 13:55
To recap the race I watched, Massa had a great start and put himself into 1st place, he then pulled out a 5.5 second lead over Alonso, struggled for a couple of laps on the new tyres and drove off into the lead again, Smedly told Massa earlier "come on you can win this" and Massa drove in a way we hadnt seen for a long time..

If we consider the fuel side, To achieve those gaps Massa was burning fuel to do everything he needed to win, and with a 1/3rd of the race to go was saving fuel to get to the finish. JOB DONE. Then that fatal descision to swap cars because Alonso was was closing the gap, Then the fatal message to Massa (badly delivered ) followed by an inept publicity guy on TV.
Ken I so agree with everything you have said.
No driver is bigger than the team but I think we should be grown up enough to accept our mistakes/bad decisions.
My heart went out to Massa yesterday----he believed he could do it and he would of have. Now he is totally demoralised. Later in the season if it is not mathematically possible he would have been the perfect team player but yesterday was too early and what a day to do it to him on the anniversary of the crash-------------------
I always believed that Ferrari were a "caring" team!!!!!!!
I am disappointed in Stefano---still think it was his job to relay the "message" not Rob.:-??
Ken stay with us you write some great posts.:-)

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 13:57
What have the Brazilian press said? All drivers are puppets somewhat :-)

Why did he move if not a puppet?

I said he's pro, not a puppet. I didn't say Ferrari aren't treating him like one! :-)

Greig
26th July 2010, 14:07
I said he's pro, not a puppet. I didn't say Ferrari aren't treating him like one! :-)

He had no problem being a puppet in 2006 and 2007 :-)

Stormsearcher
26th July 2010, 14:12
Ken I so agree with everything you have said.
No driver is bigger than the team but I think we should be grown up enough to accept our mistakes/bad decisions.
My heart went out to Massa yesterday----he believed he could do it and he would of have. Now he is totally demoralised. Later in the season if it is not mathematically possible he would have been the perfect team player but yesterday was too early and what a day to do it to him on the anniversary of the crash-------------------
I always believed that Ferrari were a "caring" team!!!!!!!
I am disappointed in Stefano---still think it was his job to relay the "message" not Rob.:-??
Ken stay with us you write some great posts.:-)

We would have been in big trouble (if we arent already) if stefano had relayed the message. Then it would be more apparent than it already is.. that it was team orders.
Massas race engineer speaks to him all the time.. it was his job to do it.

Stormsearcher
26th July 2010, 14:13
He had no problem being a puppet in 2006 and 2007 :-)

Good point. He played second fiddle to schumacher very quietly.
Besides i dont think he is being a puppet here.. Hes been given as much chance as alonso before this race.

Greig
26th July 2010, 14:24
Good point. He played second fiddle to schumacher very quietly.
Besides i dont think he is being a puppet here.. Hes been given as much chance as alonso before this race.

Indeed he was given equal chance for 10 races and the time came that a decision had to be made, but still some think he has had a title ripped away from him or something :-)

Ted
26th July 2010, 14:34
SHAME SHAME FERRARI . I love Ferrari wether they win loose or draw. BUT NOT when they bring discredit to the sport I love . It's the world DRIVERS championship and I want to see the driver win who DESERVES to win. POOR Massa. He's NOT a paid actor . He's a PROFESSIONAL RACING DRIVER MORALLY CHARGED WITH THE DUTY TO DO HIS VERY VERY BEST IN DRIVING THE CAR. Anything less disqualifies him from the label RACING DRIVER and robs the fans and public of the TRUTH of COMPETITION. To expect Massa to be all love and light after that SHAMEFUL SHAM is asking waaaayyy tooo much. I believe that he should have driven for the win. As for Alonso. I really think that if he does win the championship that HE WON'T DESERVE IT and get NO CONGRATULATIONS FROM ME. He cried at McLaren when THEY would not LET him win. Of course he is a great driver. BUT Mr Alonso, IF you wish to win DRIVE FASTER

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 14:36
Indeed he was given equal chance for 10 races and the time came that a decision had to be made, but still some think he has had a title ripped away from him or something :-)

Who thinks that? That would be silly. :-)

He had the race ripped away from him and his status in the team publically announced in the most unprofessional way possible. The decision was made on the hoof and they did a prat fall. Massa & Smedley played their part in that too i'll agree but the fact that we let it happen is pretty daft. What's clearly oblivious to some is that we moved back in time to the non-fanatic with the biggest and most unnecessary PR mess up we could have imagined.

Still, we can proudly hug the points and go blah-blah-blah until it goes away again cos that's what we did last time.

Effone
26th July 2010, 14:40
SHAME SHAME FERRARI . I love Ferrari wether they win loose or draw. BUT NOT when they bring discredit to the sport I love . It's the world DRIVERS championship and I want to see the driver win who DESERVES to win. POOR Massa. He's NOT a paid actor . He's a PROFESSIONAL RACING DRIVER MORALLY CHARGED WITH THE DUTY TO DO HIS VERY VERY BEST IN DRIVING THE CAR. Anything less disqualifies him from the label RACING DRIVER and robs the fans and public of the TRUTH of COMPETITION. To expect Massa to be all love and light after that SHAMEFUL SHAM is asking waaaayyy tooo much. I believe that he should have driven for the win. As for Alonso. I really think that if he does win the championship that HE WON'T DESERVE IT and get NO CONGRATULATIONS FROM ME. He cried at McLaren when THEY would not LET him win. Of course he is a great driver. BUT Mr Alonso, IF you wish to win DRIVE FASTER

Agree 100% and thats the way a LOT of people see it..

Hermann
26th July 2010, 14:43
Agree 100% and thats the way a LOT of people see it..

Has it been seen the same way when Heikki had to move over for Hamilton (race fixing), Button to let Hamilton in front (race fixing), Massa to move over for Kimi (race fixing and championship winning)? I'm sure there are many more examples. How have those things been seen? Just wondering....

Tech_Skill
26th July 2010, 14:48
Has it been seen the same way when Heikki had to move over for Hamilton (race fixing), Button to let Hamilton in front (race fixing), Massa to move over for Kimi (race fixing and championship winning)? I'm sure there are many more examples. How have those things been seen? Just wondering....

Those dont involve Alonso, so it doesnt count.

This is how it works, They say Alonso cant handle a fast team mate and that when Massa starts outqualifying him, Alonso will cry and start turning on Ferrari.

Alonso handed Massa his ass in race and Quali for 90% of the season, then its ''Massa hasnt recovered from the accident''

Massa has 1 good race where he was leading Alonso, the team made right call to favour the driver most capable of winning the WDC for them and that = ''Alonso cant beat Massa fair and square, the team are favouring him, the contracts say he has to win"

The British media are hysterical where Alonso is concerned for obvious reasons.

alonsonum1
26th July 2010, 14:48
i have just sat and read the 7 pages of this thread ... i just can not believe some of the comments on here. yes we are all upset with the result from yday and i can appreciate the reasons why but guys this is a team sport and sometimes decisions need to be made for the best interest of our team. i just think if i was fernando, felipe or infact anyone who works at Ferrari, if they were to log onto this site and see their so called FANS i think they would be appauled.... the thing is u r all f1 ferrari fans and like it or lump it u can not change the decisions that have been made.

Tech_Skill
26th July 2010, 14:53
i have just sat and read the 7 pages of this thread ... i just can not believe some of the comments on here. yes we are all upset with the result from yday and i can appreciate the reasons why but guys this is a team sport and sometimes decisions need to be made for the best interest of our team. i just think if i was fernando, felipe or infact anyone who works at Ferrari, if they were to log onto this site and see their so called FANS i think they would be appauled.... the thing is u r all f1 ferrari fans and like it or lump it u can not change the decisions that have been made.

cool. as long as you know if next season Alonso is too far behind massa, he is playing number 2 right?

Or he goes and drives for Mercedes GP.

Effone
26th July 2010, 15:05
cool. as long as you know if next season Alonso is too far behind massa, he is playing number 2 right?

Or he goes and drives for Mercedes GP.

Satan will skate to work before that happens.. :lol

Greig
26th July 2010, 15:06
Who thinks that? That would be silly. :-)

He had the race ripped away from him and his status in the team publically announced in the most unprofessional way possible. The decision was made on the hoof and they did a prat fall. Massa & Smedley played their part in that too i'll agree but the fact that we let it happen is pretty daft. What's clearly oblivious to some is that we moved back in time to the non-fanatic with the biggest and most unnecessary PR mess up we could have imagined.

Still, we can proudly hug the points and go blah-blah-blah until it goes away again cos that's what we did last time.

Ok this is a never ending circle, let us know when you are no longer ashamed of your team :-)

Tech_Skill
26th July 2010, 15:06
Satan will skate to work before that happens.. :lol

obviously, no way is massa gonna get that far ahead of alonso. :lol

Nova
26th July 2010, 15:12
SHAME SHAME FERRARI . I love Ferrari wether they win loose or draw. BUT NOT when they bring discredit to the sport I love . It's the world DRIVERS championship and I want to see the driver win who DESERVES to win. POOR Massa. He's NOT a paid actor . He's a PROFESSIONAL RACING DRIVER MORALLY CHARGED WITH THE DUTY TO DO HIS VERY VERY BEST IN DRIVING THE CAR. Anything less disqualifies him from the label RACING DRIVER and robs the fans and public of the TRUTH of COMPETITION. To expect Massa to be all love and light after that SHAMEFUL SHAM is asking waaaayyy tooo much. I believe that he should have driven for the win. As for Alonso. I really think that if he does win the championship that HE WON'T DESERVE IT and get NO CONGRATULATIONS FROM ME. He cried at McLaren when THEY would not LET him win. Of course he is a great driver. BUT Mr Alonso, IF you wish to win DRIVE FASTER


Who are you? Shame Ferrari? Ferrari won dude, you have 2 posts..where'd u come from??? I hate it when Mac fans show up just to diss Ferrari....

straycat
26th July 2010, 15:15
after valencia and s'stone, who cares what the brit media thinks. their team is not keeping the pace and everyone knows they have "never" used team order tactics. expect more attacks before the season ends. filipe let the team down by his lack of discretion, sorry but that is how i see it.

Tech_Skill
26th July 2010, 15:16
Who are you? Shame Ferrari? Ferrari won dude, you have 2 posts..where'd u come from??? I hate it when Mac fans show up just to diss Ferrari....

They are proper rattled, cant remember the last time I saw so many Suicidal Mclaren fans, The FIA should take our 100k and set up a help line for them, I dont wanna see them do anything silly.

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 15:18
Ok this is a never ending circle, let us know when you are no longer ashamed of your team :-)

That's the kind of comment that serves only to antagonise and not to debate :-)

I have seen you criticise Ferrari yet you support them. Am I not allowed to do the same?

Is criticism only appropriate when it loses us points?

I support my team yes...... and yes i was ashamed of yesterday and will continue to be, despite knowing why they did it. The two aren't mutually exclusive - tidy though that might be!

Hermann
26th July 2010, 15:25
after valencia and s'stone, who cares what the brit media thinks. their team is not keeping the pace and everyone knows they have "never" used team order tactics. expect more attacks before the season ends. filipe let the team down by his lack of discretion, sorry but that is how i see it.

The FIA cares what the british media thinks. Thats my oppinion. If not, why there was absolutely no fuss about McLaren doing exactly the same (including the radio message) with Heikki in german GP 2008?

Maybe because Hamilton was on their 'list' to win the title in that year? And maybe Fernando is not on their 'list' for this year? Or maybe i am just being 'paranoid'. Who knows.

As for Felipe, come to think about it, yes it looks like this. For some, he even did the right thing, for others, he turned his back to the team with that. Depends on your point of view, i suppose.

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 15:26
Who thinks that? That would be silly. :-)

He had the race ripped away from him and his status in the team publically announced in the most unprofessional way possible. The decision was made on the hoof and they did a prat fall. Massa & Smedley played their part in that too i'll agree but the fact that we let it happen is pretty daft. What's clearly oblivious to some is that we moved back in time to the non-fanatic with the biggest and most unnecessary PR mess up we could have imagined.

Still, we can proudly hug the points and go blah-blah-blah until it goes away again cos that's what we did last time.

Does your avatar suggest that it was black day for you? PR mess give it a rest, schumacher, Brundle and even DC were very objective in their views. Only looney tunes Eddie Jordon lauched a vitriolic attack cue the normal anti-ferrari uk press reaction. I say fantastic job by everyone at Ferrari including Stefano in handling that idiot on live TV

Tech_Skill
26th July 2010, 15:30
The FIA cares what the british media thinks. Thats my oppinion. If not, why there was absolutely no fuss about McLaren doing exactly the same (including the radio message) with Heikki in german GP 2008?

Maybe because Hamilton was on their 'list' to win the title in that year? And maybe Fernando is not on their 'list' for this year? Or maybe i am just being 'paranoid'. Who knows.

As for Felipe, come to think about it, yes it looks like this. For some, he even did the right thing, for others, he turned his back to the team with that. Depends on your point of view, i suppose.

Im an Ethnic Minority born in the UK and living there. But the bottom line here is, the way the english in particular behave towards other nations in sport is absolutely disgusting, and they are disliked across europe for such behaviour. Basically, all they do is slate and slander other nations whilst overhyping their own sportsman.

The world cup was hilarious, when they said 'not one german player would get into this world class england side, this was the same england side that got a footballing lesson from the almighty powerhouse called algeria' :lol

Then england got their assess handed to them 4-1.

The british media never learn, they do this in all sports, talk themselves up and then are made to look foolish when they get exposed.

Greig
26th July 2010, 15:34
That's the kind of comment that serves only to antagonise and not to debate :-)

I have seen you criticise Ferrari yet you support them. Am I not allowed to do the same?

Is criticism only appropriate when it loses us points?

I support my team yes...... and yes i was ashamed of yesterday and will continue to be, despite knowing why they did it. The two aren't mutually exclusive - tidy though that might be!

Course you can do the same, but when you start making sigs etc maybe it's taking it a bit far, I seem to remember you complaining about Gotnov's sig, is yours not the same as his was?

All I am saying is you repeating you don't like it, and me repeating I don't mind it, will not change anything :-)

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 15:38
Does your avatar suggest that it was black day for you? PR mess give it a rest, schumacher, Brundle and even DC were very objective in their views. Only looney tunes Eddie Jordon lauched a vitriolic attack cue the normal anti-ferrari uk press reaction. I say fantastic job by everyone at Ferrari including Stefano in handling that idiot on live TV

I didn't realise EJ was the sole yardstick for worldwide public opinion :lol

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 15:42
Course you can do the same, but when you start making sigs etc maybe it's taking it a bit far, I seem to remember you complaining about Gotnov's sig, is yours not the same as his was?

All I am saying is you repeating you don't like it, and me repeating I don't mind it, will not change anything :-)

No problem :-)

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 15:45
I didn't realise EJ was the sole yardstick for worldwide public opinion :lol

Yeh funny but you have similar expressions about your team specifically "stupid decision, repurcussions, bad management". So you agree with that numpty who happened to have the ear of all the UK f1 audience when he was spouting his vitriol?
Indeed, he was quoted in a few of the heavyweights!

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 15:56
Also you say "worldwide public opinion" here are some other opinions:

Italy's Corriere dello Sport: "It is fair to recognise that the problem is in the regulations."

Rome daily Il Tempo said Ferrari "did the right thing in the wrong way", and Spain's El Mundo said the team order ban is "a regulation that penalises team interests".

Italy's Autosprint marvelled that Ferrari was "fined for teamwork!"


But according to you it was a PR disaster :lol get over it

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 16:01
Oh and here's another quote that contradicts your world wide opinion case:

'Team orders in F1 are wrong' says Jenson Button as Ferrari row builds

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 16:03
Yeh funny but you have similar expressions about your team specifically "stupid decision, repurcussions, bad management". So you agree with that numpty who happened to have the ear of all the UK f1 audience when he was spouting his vitriol?
Indeed, he was quoted in a few of the heavyweights!

You can't blame EJ for the opinion of a worldwide viewing audience (or indeed me ;-)). I never said I agreed with him either..... and yep we made bad management decisions that led to the incident and EJ and most of the press spouting off about it. If we were going to do what we did, we could have done it a hell of a lot more professionally, but I've been around that block twice already today....

.... and said that team orders are not the issue per se....

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 16:11
You can't blame EJ for the opinion of a worldwide viewing audience (or indeed me ;-)). I never said I agreed with him either..... and yep we made bad management decisions that led to the incident and EJ and most of the press spouting off about it. If we were going to do what we did, we could have done it a hell of a lot more professionally, but I've been around that block twice already today....

.... and said that team orders are not the issue per se....

So you think that the majority of world audience thought it was the wrong decision? You also think that yesterday was such an overwhelming dark day in your F1 calender it warrants the Blacked out avatar?

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 16:16
So you think that the majority of world audience thought it was the wrong decision? You also think that yesterday was such an overwhelming dark day in your F1 calender ot warrants the Blacked out avatar?

I think the majority of the world audience felt cheated by the result, Yes. As i've said, I understand why we did it - we just made the proverbial pig's ear out of it in every single way except perhaps being awarded the points (should they stand). Also, my avatar is broken.

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 16:20
I think the majority of the world audience felt cheated by the result, Yes. As i've said, I understand why we did it - we just made the proverbial pig's ear out of it in every single way except perhaps being awarded the points (should they stand). Also, my avatar is broken. Ok my apologies:oops

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 16:23
No doubt in my mind the points will stand unless they WMSC want to kickstart a debacle

Hermann
26th July 2010, 16:25
I think the majority of the world audience felt cheated by the result, Yes. As i've said, I understand why we did it - we just made the proverbial pig's ear out of it in every single way except perhaps being awarded the points (should they stand). Also, my avatar is broken.

Ok, but why didn't 'the majority of the world audience' feel cheated by McLaren in the german GP 2008 when they did exactly the same thing and using exactly the same words for Heikki to let him know what to do? Why?????

Because the british press called it a gentleman maneuver instead of blatant cheating fixing a race result?

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 16:30
Ok, but why didn't 'the majority of the world audience' feel cheated by McLaren in the german GP 2008 when they did exactly the same thing and using exactly the same words for Heikki to let him know what to do? Why?????

Because the british press called it a gentleman maneuver instead of blatant cheating fixing a race result?

Because we handled it very badly (and set a precident for it 8 years earlier) and they didn't. As i've said before, it's all about perception as far as the viewing public are concerned. For example, they understand when a subtle pass has to be made to secure a world championship at the end of the season, but when they feel that they've been cheated out of a race result, it doesn't tend to go down too well. :-??

Fangiofan
26th July 2010, 16:34
He could do what he did, but NOT THAT OBVIOUS! Everybody know teamorders still are around. But you could do it in a better way! For the team, that pays his sallary!

On lap 20 he could let Alonso past. In the hairpin. Insted he nearly drives Alonso of track! STUPID STUPID STUPID!

I agree. Please people, Ferrari are not so idiots. I am pretty sure Massa received a hidden message which anyone couldnīt understand but he refused to it and then he was told the 'open' message. But he behaved so bad towards his team and made it pretty clear to everyone. I think his and Robīs positions will be heavily revised. If the WMSC sanctions Ferrari poor Massa.

Anni
26th July 2010, 17:11
I agree. Please people, Ferrari are not so idiots. I am pretty sure Massa received a hidden message which anyone couldnīt understand but he refused to it and then he was told the 'open' message. But he behaved so bad towards his team and made it pretty clear to everyone. I think his and Robīs positions will be heavily revised. If the WMSC sanctions Ferrari poor Massa.

Why should he refuse to the hidden message and respond to the īopenīmessage`? Doesnīt make any sence to me, because the team knows he would have understood the hidden message.

Greig
26th July 2010, 17:24
Because we handled it very badly (and set a precident for it 8 years earlier) and they didn't. As i've said before, it's all about perception as far as the viewing public are concerned. For example, they understand when a subtle pass has to be made to secure a world championship at the end of the season, but when they feel that they've been cheated out of a race result, it doesn't tend to go down too well. :-??

So how did McLaren handle it better? Why was the public happy with McLaren doing it to assist Lewis?

Hermann
26th July 2010, 17:26
Because we handled it very badly (and set a precident for it 8 years earlier) and they didn't. As i've said before, it's all about perception as far as the viewing public are concerned. For example, they understand when a subtle pass has to be made to secure a world championship at the end of the season, but when they feel that they've been cheated out of a race result, it doesn't tend to go down too well. :-??

But they handled it almost exactly the same way. Heikki got told on the team radio 'Hamilton is 2 seconds faster than you'. A couple of laps later he just slowed down and let Hamilton pass him. The only thing missing is the 'sorry' on the team radio from Heikki's race engineer. He obviously knew better than Smedley not to screw his team!

Of course, another thing missing has been the 'outcry' from the british side of the press. Maybe they know how to 'handle' the press better? Might be. Thats why i said the Ferrari PR department needs to learn some things. The influence of the media is enormous nowadays. And 'public oppinion' is used quite a lot to make rules to control things.

Alonsomaniac
26th July 2010, 17:32
If Felipe had handled the situation on track as a man and Stefano had come outside today with a black eye I think people at Ferrari would have a lot more respect for Felipe than they have now.
I would.

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 17:36
So how did McLaren handle it better? Why was the public happy with McLaren doing it to assist Lewis?

Heikki's engineer didn't have to apologise to him over the radio for telling him that he was slower than Lewis and Heikki didn't virtually stop to let him through. The way we did it was like a spoken lie and everyone saw it as that. "Mixture 5 Heikki" isn't really as sensational an own goal is it?

Also, the world was waiting for us to do it after the last time so we should have been more subtle, not less!

As we agreed earlier, blame the guys that did it or the management that mis-managed it - whichever. The result was the same.

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 17:38
If Felipe had handled the situation on track as a man and Stefano had come outside today with a black eye I think people at Ferrari would have a lot more respect for Felipe than they have now.
I would.
As far as I can tell Massa has not lost any respect over this and neither has anyone else over this incident. Only problem is that their not as adept as McLaren at covering up team orders. The team clearly didn't legislate for the scenario that Massa would be leading the race given he was so far off Alonso's pace throughout the weekend

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 17:47
Heikki's engineer didn't have to apologise to him over the radio for telling him that he was slower than Lewis and Heikki didn't virtually stop to let him through. The way we did it was like a spoken lie and everyone saw it as that. "Mixture 5 Heikki" isn't really as sensational an own goal is it?

Also, the world was waiting for us to do it after the last time so we should have been more subtle, not less!

As we agreed earlier, blame the guys that did it or the management that mis-managed it - whichever. The result was the same.

All youre really saying is McLaren are slickier than us at breaking the rules. Nethertheless they break the rules as well as every other team and they would have done exactly the same in our position but with better spin. So what? everyone will get over it and the most important topic of discussion willl be the fact our updates are working perfectly :-)

Greig
26th July 2010, 17:59
Heikki's engineer didn't have to apologise to him over the radio for telling him that he was slower than Lewis and Heikki didn't virtually stop to let him through. The way we did it was like a spoken lie and everyone saw it as that. "Mixture 5 Heikki" isn't really as sensational an own goal is it?

Also, the world was waiting for us to do it after the last time so we should have been more subtle, not less!

As we agreed earlier, blame the guys that did it or the management that mis-managed it - whichever. The result was the same.

so your problem really is the reaction to it, by people who will hate Ferrari no matter what they do?

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 18:04
All youre really saying is McLaren are slickier than us at breaking the rules. Nethertheless they break the rules as well as every other team and they would have done exactly the same in our position but with better spin. So what? everyone will get over it and the most important topic of discussion willl be the fact our updates are working perfectly :-)

I was answering a specific question about the perception of the fixed race result by the public dude. :-)

Greig
26th July 2010, 18:07
I was answering a specific question about the perception of the fixed race result by the public dude. :-)

So the public were happy with Heikki nearly coming to a stop at the hairpin to let Lewis past, but they are outraged at Massa lifting off to let Alonso pass? Or do you probably not just find the outraged public are just people who do not support Ferrari in the slightest, have you seen mass protests in the street or something? You keep going on about public perception, what do you base that on?

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 18:09
so your problem really is the reaction to it, by people who will hate Ferrari no matter what they do?

Partly I suppose. Don't like my team looking daft and lying to cover up, even though it is all just "playing the game". Also, partly what we did to Massa too - i'm not happy with that at all as you know (but let's not go there again though please ;-)).

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 18:10
I was answering a specific question about the perception of the fixed race result by the public dude. :-)

A partisan F1 uk public are always going to see this as opportunity to shout corruption from the rooftops at Ferrari, whilst behaving like the three wise monkeys when looking closer to home

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 18:12
A partisan F1 uk public are always going to see this as opportunity to shout corruption from the rooftops at Ferrari, whilst behaving like the three wise monkeys when looking closer to home

true.

ferrari4life
26th July 2010, 18:36
Tifosi, I remember a time when you were up in arms because of my comments slagging Ferrari for what I believed was sub-par performances. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. At the end of the day we are still big fans of Ferrari otherwise we move on to something else.
You believe that Massa should have been allowed to win. Others belive that Ferrari did the right thing..Ferrari (Massa) had a wdc slip from their grasps 2 years ago because of 1 point...realistically speaking Alonso is going to have a tough time coming back to win this...Massa's is pretty much zilch. Be happy we got the 1-2...Massa had plenty of oppurtunity to stay on par with Alonso until this point. There were races earlier in the season that Alonso found himself stuck behind Massa when Massa was clearly slower. At some point the team has to make a decision. We were happy to let them do it with MS and Irwine and Rubens for all those years that we brought home all those titles. Its a fact of life it will happen again.. go watch tennis if you don't like it. Even in soccer a player can dribble past 3-4 opponents with some magical skill and then pass the ball to his team mate to score the goal at the last minute. it doesn't take away from either players greatness.

ferrari4life
26th July 2010, 18:39
I do agree with you that Ferrari made a shameful attempt at doing it and could have done so much better.

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 18:43
Tifosi, I remember a time when you were up in arms because of my comments slagging Ferrari for what I believed was sub-par performances. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. At the end of the day we are still big fans of Ferrari otherwise we move on to something else.
You believe that Massa should have been allowed to win. Others belive that Ferrari did the right thing..Ferrari (Massa) had a wdc slip from their grasps 2 years ago because of 1 point...realistically speaking Alonso is going to have a tough time coming back to win this...Massa's is pretty much zilch. Be happy we got the 1-2...Massa had plenty of oppurtunity to stay on par with Alonso until this point. There were races earlier in the season that Alonso found himself stuck behind Massa when Massa was clearly slower. At some point the team has to make a decision. We were happy to let them do it with MS and Irwine and Rubens for all those years that we brought home all those titles. Its a fact of life it will happen again.. go watch tennis if you don't like it. Even in soccer a player can dribble past 3-4 opponents with some magical skill and then pass the ball to his team mate to score the goal at the last minute. it doesn't take away from either players greatness.

Remind me dude? :Hmm

Everyone is entitled to an opinion yet you're happy to tell me what mine should be and what I should do if I don't like it! :lol

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 18:50
I do agree with you that Ferrari made a shameful attempt at doing it and could have done so much better.

Would a better way have been to say "move over Fernando's comimg through". Or "Get out of the way or else". Or perhaps a better coded message with a staged and spectacular overtaking move. Don't make any difference in my book. They sanctioned team orders and no matter how carefully it was done someone would have publicised the fact and Ferrari would have been lambasted.

JRX164
26th July 2010, 18:50
Sorry, is this the 'you said and he said so I said' forum? Otherwise I'm lost:-)

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 18:54
Would a better way have been to say "move over Fernando's comimg through". Or "Get out of the way or else". Or perhaps a better coded message with a staged and spectacular overtaking move. Don't make any difference in my book. They sanctioned team orders and no matter how carefully it was done someone would have publicised the fact and Ferrari would have been lambasted.

It wasn't done with any care whatsoever. It was the equivalent of breaking the news of a family bereavement by slapping the corpse on the kitchen table and saying "look who's dead"! :roll

Greig
26th July 2010, 18:58
Would a better way have been to say "move over Fernando's comimg through". Or "Get out of the way or else". Or perhaps a better coded message with a staged and spectacular overtaking move. Don't make any difference in my book. They sanctioned team orders and no matter how carefully it was done someone would have publicised the fact and Ferrari would have been lambasted.

Agreed :-) Ferrari haters and Brit media would go to town no matter what they did, even when Eddie used to slow down gradually and blame his brakes they still called it how it was :-D

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 19:03
It wasn't done with any care whatsoever. It was the equivalent of breaking the news of a family bereavement by slapping the corpse on the kitchen table and saying "look who's dead"! :roll

Ok so what would you have done? Taken him to the side at the beginning of race and siad something like " Sorry son you're gonna play second fiddle, you might not know what second fiddle is right now but let me explain"
My guess is that that the team didn't think that felipe was going to be ahead of Alonso given his pace throughout the weekend

Fiondella
26th July 2010, 19:16
Agreed :-) Ferrari haters and Brit media would go to town no matter what they did, even when Eddie used to slow down gradually and blame his brakes they still called it how it was :-D

Exactly :-)

Suzie
26th July 2010, 19:37
I understand WHY Ferrari did it, I just think they went about it completely the wrong way. If they wanted Felipe to play rear gunner they should have told him from the offset, not more than halfway through the race when he'd spent up until then believing he could win. And when the time came to give the order, Stefano should have manned up and did it himself rather than make Smedley do the dirty work. I hope this doesn't divide the team now; and if it does I hope Ferrari consider the 7 points worth it. They have been blaming the media all season for trying to create disharmony between Felipe and Fernando, but they've potentially gone and done it themselves.

I felt slightly too intimidated to post much on here last night - I was worried that if I expressed any kind of regret about what Ferrari did, or voiced my extreme disappointment at the fact my favourite driver didn't win the race on a date that would have meant so, SO much to him and his fans, that I'd be shouted down or told to go and join a Massa forum. It wasn't a nice way to feel and I'm also a little shocked at how some people seemingly have done a complete 360 degree turnaround from this time last year when they were massive Felipe fans and the whole forum united together. I don't really want to sit here and see him getting torn to shreds, so I guess this Massa fangirl will be shutting up :wave

Tifosi
26th July 2010, 19:49
I understand WHY Ferrari did it, I just think they went about it completely the wrong way. If they wanted Felipe to play rear gunner they should have told him from the offset, not more than halfway through the race when he'd spent up until then believing he could win. And when the time came to give the order, Stefano should have manned up and did it himself rather than make Smedley do the dirty work. I hope this doesn't divide the team now; and if it does I hope Ferrari consider the 7 points worth it. They have been blaming the media all season for trying to create disharmony between Felipe and Fernando, but they've potentially gone and done it themselves.

I felt slightly too intimidated to post much on here last night - I was worried that if I expressed any kind of regret about what Ferrari did, or voiced my extreme disappointment at the fact my favourite driver didn't win the race on a date that would have meant so, SO much to him and his fans, that I'd be shouted down or told to go and join a Massa forum. It wasn't a nice way to feel and I'm also a little shocked at how some people seemingly have done a complete 360 degree turnaround from this time last year when they were massive Felipe fans and the whole forum united together. I don't really want to sit here and see him getting torn to shreds, so I guess this Massa fangirl will be shutting up :wave

no room for such weakness here dude. It was best to keep 'em out the loop til the last possible minute anyway - it would have been a waste of commitment if they'd been moping about the place. Better false hope than the truth. Still, show 'em their contracts and tell 'em to fly right or sod off!!

(I think that's the tone we're going for now Suzie)

Greig
26th July 2010, 19:54
no room for such weakness here dude. It was best to keep 'em out the loop til the last possible minute anyway - it would have been a waste of commitment if they'd been moping about the place. Better false hope than the truth. Still, show 'em their contracts and tell 'em to fly right or sod off!!

(I think that's the tone we're going for now Suzie)

If Felipe can do better than 2nd driver for Ferrari then for sure, go do it, no point wasting his time with us any further is there? I am sure that would make you happy :-)