Team Orders - how easy should it be to implement them?

[Tifosi]

OK. Now that the dust has settled :-D after Sunday, I'm interested to get people's views on the effect of team orders on the F1 "spectacle" as it is known.

Personally, I'm happy to admit that team orders are a necessary evil of Formula One. The reason I say "evil" is because by definition they interfere with the natural running order of the race, and therefore have the potential to detract from if not remove the unpredictability and excitement of a race (as we have seen).

However, with F1 being a team sport, it is only right that the team decides how best to use their cars to gain both championships.

The issue as I see it is that anyone with the slightest interest in or focus on the human element of the sport and individual drivers (quite a large percentage of the sport's fan base I would say) can very easily be turned off by such manipulation (regardless of whether they understand that it is legal or illegal to do so!)

Should they scrap the ban on team orders? If they do, teams can be as obvious as they like (hence the reason why the rule was introduced in the first place) and there will still be uproar because in general, people do not like to feel cheated out of a race result.

At least if TO's are banned, teams have to (if they have any sense) hide them in a pit stop or something to make it look as if the natural order of the race has not been tampered with. If Ferrari had made their swap in the pit stops on Sunday, nobody would even be discussing Team Orders this week.

Fixing a "natural racing result" purely for reasons of securing marginal points for later on in the season doesn't satisfy the majority of people watching the race on the day, even though most understand the reason for it in the bigger picture of the Championship(s).

The whole point of tuning in to/attending a motor race for most punters is the unpredictability of who will win. If the viewing public believe that the driver standing on the top step of the podium didn't deserve the trophy, then they rightly feel cheated - legal or not!

Nobody really gives a monkey's if Team Orders are used to secure a championship when it is clear that only one driver can win mathematically, because they get a satisfactory result at the end of that race because they clearly understand why it was done. However, when they are led to believe one thing and it suddenly turns into another - then it's an issue.

I'm interested in your point of view, not as a team supporter, but more from the point of view of how it could affect the F1 spectacle .... if that matters to you!

sorry for the length of my babble. :oops

[Greig]

No need for a ban, even when they were legal we hardly seen them being used to openly, barring Austria 01,02 :-)

[Ste]

Agree with Greig. The ban has to go. Everyone has always used them despite it, so essentially it's completely pointless.

[Greig]

Do we think if team orders were legal then the reaction to Sunday would be any less evil towards Ferrari? I think they would still be attacked by the same people attacking them now :-)

[Tifosi]

Do we think if team orders were legal then the reaction to Sunday would be any less evil towards Ferrari? I think they would still be attacked by the same people attacking them now :-)

My reasoning was that making it easier for teams to do transparent passes could only be a bad thing actually. Like i say, if we'd done it in the pit stops, no-one would have had an issue. However, I don't think we'd thought that far ahead by then :-??

[RedDragon]

agree with getting rid of them. Plus I'm tired of all the speculations, conspiracy theories and lies that have gone on since '02. If they lift the ban, it will take away the need for teams to try to catch other teams being naughty with TO's.

[aroutis]

F1 's about the teams and not the individuals. They put a bucketload of money, they should be allowed to run their resources (drivers) as they see fit.

End of story.

[Tifosi]

F1 's about the teams and not the individuals. They put a bucketload of money, they should be allowed to run their resources (drivers) as they see fit.

End of story.

Very noble. The sponsors put bucketloads in and only 'cos the punters watch the telly box.

[Tommy_F]

An interesting option would be to switch drivers after the race, so it doesn't affect the racing itself so much. We would have fake position fights, but it's better than nothing right?

[Rob]

Well with the ban all teams were applying team orders, it happans so much in the WTCC were say Seat&BMW has 6 cars and shuffle them around ALOT to get the points leader up front or in top 3 (may be less than that this year, lost interest in WTCC.)

Think the ban should be scrapped.I got no problem with team orders. Its not good to see the lead changed like that, but at least everyone will now it legal and plain to see. Its just the casual viewer ( lewis/button fans& brit media) kicked up a storm over this weekend as it was Ferrari doing the team orders.

[Katu]

for me it's ok if they lift the ban, teamorders happen anyway like it or not. but it shouldn't be dangerous to drivers

[Greig]

Are team orders banned in any other form of motor sports?

[Katu]

Are team orders banned in any other form of motor sports?

not in WRC at least

[Hermann]

Are team orders banned in any other form of motor sports?

In DTM they are banned as well 'theoretically', as far as i know. But they are being given all the time, as a spectator, you actually expect them to. Most of the time, they use those messages like 'save the tyres' too. As long as they are using such codes, race control won't interfere. But since there are only two actual teams, Mercedes and Audi, and many drivers, the rule is a mere formality, and both teams do it quite often.

[Tifosi]

Are team orders banned in any other form of motor sports?

F1 takes itself so seriously that every minute detail is over-scrutinised, and as such, because of the way driver personalities and the WDC are sold to the public as being the be-all and end-all, it's hardly surprising that it causes controversy when it's manipulated so badly in front of our eyes, regardless of anything else. Most punters don't care about the WCC and they want a straight fight for the WDC. Hardly surprising that is it?

If you take BTCC for example, that's manipulated by the safety car (don't laugh :-D) and Alan Gow levels the playing field as he sees fit. Team Orders are rife but it works OK cos we all know the score and entertainment is a priority.

F1 however is a business and the stakes are very high. Which is why people boo it when they think it's a farce. Loving a sport means you are blinkered to its faults far more than "normal" people.

[killer]

Like i say, if we'd done it in the pit stops, no-one would have had an issue.

You'd be surprised, Stu. :-)

If the case was like last Sunday's--where the car behind was as quick as, if not quicker, than the one in front--second car should close in for a "legit" pass and leading car will not defend as aggressively as usual. If the opposite were to happen, however, then I agree that a pit stop may be the best way to do it.

[vcs316]

Ferrari's actions in Sunday's German Grand Prix have caused an outcry from a number of F1 fans, some of whom feel cheated by what they saw.

However, whether or not the World Motor Sport Council takes further action than the $100,000 sanction already imposed on the team, it will do precious little to stamp out team orders. All it will mean is that teams will apply them with a far greater degree of subtlety. Is that what F1 really wants? Far better, in the view of many of the sport's most experienced observers, to get rid of the team orders ban altogether.

That is the view of Bernie Ecclestone, veteran broadcaster Murray Walker and current BBC TV expert Martin Brundle, among many others.

There can be little justification for what Ferrari did in Austria in 2002. Michael Schumacher had dominated the early season and no other team appeared capable of challenging Maranello that year. So it was with disbelief that the world's fans and media witnessed Rubens Barrichello being pulled over to allow Michael Schumacher to take his fifth win in six at a race where Barrichello had been quicker. It was so outrageous because it was so unnecessary.

Schumacher himself didn't appreciate it, this being the second successive year Rubens had moved over for him in Austria (in 2001 it had been over second, not a victory).

"Last year I was sort of involved in the situation because I felt the championship was much more tight," Michael said at the time, "This year I didn't even think about it and before the race, when asked about it, I said that I didn't think there was going to be a team strategy involved. Suddenly they told me he would move over and I'm not very pleased about it either..."

At the time, with no team orders ban in existence, Ferrari was not actually guilty of any offence. What they did do, however, was muck up the podium ceremony when Schumacher ushered Rubens onto the top step, confusing all the attending dignitaries, for which they were fined.

"It was absolutely disgraceful," Flavio Briatore said. "I've never seen anything like it in my time in this business. F1 is much bigger than Ferrari and they should remember it."

Patrick Head thought it was "cynical" and that was the word most commonly expressed, closely followed by "farcical."

The FIA, meanwhile, drew attention to a World Motor Sport Council ruling from 1998. The governing body said: "It is perfectly legitimate for a team to decide that one of its drivers is the championship contender and the other will support him. What is not acceptable, in the world council's view, is any arrangement which interferes with a race and cannot be justified by the relevant team's interest in the championship."

That seems to do just fine and arguably F1's mistake was to subsequently issue a ban on team orders.

In a utopian world, we'd all love to see great drivers in identical cars racing each other to the last corner of every grand prix. But it simply isn't going to happen. Team orders have been a part of the world championship since it began and will remain so, in whatever form they are dressed up.

In Casablanca in 1958 Phil Hill pulled over just before the end and gave his Ferrari team mate Mike Hawthorn second place, which allowed Hawthorn to beat Stirling Moss by one point to become the first British world champion.

In 1964, at the final race in Mexico, Lorenzo Bandini allowed Ferrari team mate John Surtees to overtake him for second place having already collided with and eliminated Surtees' title rival, Graham Hill. Surtees beat Hill to the title by one point. Both cases are arguably much more disagreeable than anything that happened last Sunday.

In England, and probably Brazil, the outrage over Hockenheim is sure to have been much greater than in either Italy or Spain. Interestingly, one of the questions put to Massa after the race on Sunday, was this:

"Felipe, Rubens damaged his reputation a lot in Brazil when he did what you did today. Aren't you worried that you have deeply damaged your image?

"For sure not, for sure not," Massa replied. "I'm very professional and I've showed in my career how professional I am."

Well, he would have been a lot more professional if he hadn't made it quite so obvious but purely from a pride point of view, that was understandable enough. Far better that the team orders rule isn't there at all, then drivers and team personnel are not put in such invidious positions.

On a Monday night UK sports show the matter was headline topic. There was quite an anti-Ferrari backlash but some of the points being made were banal. Someone complained he'd paid over £5k to get to Germany and back with his family and he felt cheated and wouldn't be watching F1 again. Why? He'd still seen a good race. Had he failed to notice that the pole position man was still hard at it but couldn't beat the Ferraris? Why did it honestly matter that Ferrari imposed an entirely logical team order.

Then there was a buffoon who'd bet on Massa to win and thought he'd been robbed. Anyone thick enough to wager that the Ferrari No2, miles behind the No1 in the championship at race 11, is going to beat him, clearly hasn't been watching. He deserves everything that won't be coming to him...

Martin Brundle humorously related a tale about coming back from the race on the same plane as the Red Bull mechanics. They apparently thought it hilarious that a few weeks ago they were getting a load of flak for letting their guys crash into each other, while now Ferrari is taking a massive hit for trying to stop that! Looks like you can't win...

In the Spygate affair, the FIA took away McLaren's constructors' points but left the drivers alone, figuring they were blameless. They may elect to do a similar thing this time. After all, what has Massa done? Ignore the message and he risked being fired. Alonso, too, has done nothing wrong.

In future, it's probably best to scrap the rule. If the FIA doesn't, teams will adopt more subtle measures - a poorly timed pit call, a bit of extra fuel in one of the cars, a 'botched' pit stop, a different engine map. There is any number of ways to slow down a race car. A team orders ban cannot be properly policed, so getting rid of it should at least give us transparency, which has to be better.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22477.html

[Hornet]

End the silly ban, let the teams do whatever they like because whether the fans like it or not, all team will still have team orders. If Ferrari didn't use it, our competitor will use it against us anyway. Every team have to use it.

In a way, I'm glad Ferrari did it without trying to encrypt everything. It is my hope that this will eventually lead to the end of that dumb rule.

And btw, this isn't hollywood. Teams doesn't need to be the most likable people around. If some fans or the media have issue with it, tough luck. I'd rather support a team like Ferrari who is straight about everything than a team like McLaren and Lewis who always tries to portray themself as a saint, trying to be popular among the fans or whatever. The only way you can please all the fans and media is to pretend like all the bad things never happens and tell fairy tale about how your driver is treated fair and equal and your team is the most professional team despite the stealing and lying. :lol

[racingbradley]

No matter how much I personally hate team orders I am realistic enough to know they are sometimes necessary.
I am finding it hard to understand why there was no fuss when Massa gifted Kimi in Brazil 2007, Kimi returned the favour by slowing down China 2008.
Why was there no fuss on those occasions?:-??
I have not included obvious team orders by other teams as they don't count (non-Ferrari so it's no problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[Tifosi]

No matter how much I personally hate team orders I am realistic enough to know they are sometimes necessary.
I am finding it hard to understand why there was no fuss when Massa gifted Kimi in Brazil 2007, Kimi returned the favour by slowing down China 2008.
Why was there no fuss on those occasions?:-??
I have not included obvious team orders by other teams as they don't count (non-Ferrari so it's no problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Because your average jo-punter understood why in that circumstance it was necessary. They felt cheated on Sunday cos there was only one race on for position and it was taken away from them, thus making the race unsatisfying if not pointless to your average viewer.

[racingbradley]

Hmmm I just think they hoped our drivers would take each other out & maybe even Vettel with us so Macca could have the big points. :-)

[Tifosi]

I see it as a matter of perception myself. We all know it's a team sport but it's not sold to jo public as a team sport, it's about drivers to them.... driver's being allowed to fight.

You can understand the reasoning behind something but still find it disappointing or upsetting. Take Ron Dennis' existance for example ;-)

[Greig]

Because your average jo-punter understood why in that circumstance it was necessary. They felt cheated on Sunday cos there was only one race on for position and it was taken away from them, thus making the race unsatisfying if not pointless to your average viewer.

Or because they did not have so much bitterness towards Felipe and Kimi as they do to Alonso :-)

where are these jo-punters that feel cheated out of interest?

[Tifosi]

Or because they did not have so much bitterness towards Felipe and Kimi as they do to Alonso :-)

where are these jo-punters that feel cheated out of interest?

It's true that Alonso does spark high feeling in many people due to events of the past (although seemingly it's what he says and the way he says it that causes more trouble than what he actually does on track) , and it's also fair to say that people love to hate Ferrari, so any old excuse will do.

I also think it's rather pointless that we've managed to turn Alonso into the bad guy and Felipe into the martyr. It can only get worse from here on in.

the jo-punters are all over the place. They're the ones who bleat on at you whenever they find out you're a Formula One fan, even though they have absolutely no interest in a particular driver or team ( so I'm discounting McLaren/Hami-Butt fans). The one's who watch the race for the racing's sake.

[Greig]

I have yet to see any jo-punter then, all I see is F1 fans, and why should jo-punter hold more say than F1 fans?

[Tifosi]

Didn't say they did mate :-). My point all along was about the perception of team orders, and the difference between how we did it on Sunday and how everyone else manages to do it.

[Greig]

But F1 fans would know it was a order even if done more subtle, so why is jo-punter such an issue? will they never watch F1 again? I doubt it :-)

[Tifosi]

But F1 fans would know it was a order even if done more subtle, so why is jo-punter such an issue? will they never watch F1 again? I doubt it :-)

That is The luxury that Formula One can afford to take.

[nikhil4356]

What I don’t understand is that people say it would be fine if Ferrari had covered it up(team order) better. Surely this is actually worse as then you don’t know if you are watching a sport or a parade and will never know if the right person won. If team orders are to be allowed I think the exact opposite should happen and the teams should have to openly declare what they are doing, surely this would be more in the interests of the sport rather than trying to cover things up and F1 becoming known as a farce or with the fans never really knowing if the results have been artifically changed. I would add that the teams should only be allowed to do this a set number of times per race / season but fear that this could lead to the same problem still arising. Am I in the minority with this opinion?

[RACERX11]

The real problem is that it is Ferrari doing it not any other team................... If this had been done by Liuzzi , moving over so that Adrian Sutil take the checker flag, no one would have said anything................

Let´s get over, and hope that the team does a better job covering those hidden messages¨

LET´S DO IT AGAIN IN HUNGARY THIS WEEKEND !!!!!!!!

[Ted]

F1 is NOT a team sport !!!! It's for THE WORLD DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP. IT'S NOT TO FIND OUT WHO CHANGES TYRES QUICKEST. FOOTBALL IS TEAM SPORT, if you want to watch team sport, WATCH IT!!. The most intense competition SHOULD be between drivers on the same team , obviously, because certain teams have technical dominance from time to time thus precluding a win by any driver who's not fortunate enough to be on that team. Stirling Moss was OBVIOUSLY the best driver of his era but never won a world championship. If the drivers championship is rigged then why even have it??:furious

[Greig]

F1 has always been a team sport Ted, Fangio used to take his team mates car if his broke in the middle of a race and win titles from it :-)

[Ted]

Doesn't matter WHO does it. IT'S WRONG!!!!. IT'S NOT SPORT!!!!!. IT'S NOT COMPETITION!!!!. IT IS CORRUPTION!!!! IT IS FALSE!!!. Ferrari is THE iconic team and therefore should set the highest standards. Obviously ferrari will attract the most critical scrutiny. Philippe DRIVE THE CAR HARD FROM START TO FINISH and dont let F1 become :-ZZ

[Grillo]

F1 is NOT a team sport !!!! It's for THE WORLD DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP. IT'S NOT TO FIND OUT WHO CHANGES TYRES QUICKEST. FOOTBALL IS TEAM SPORT, if you want to watch team sport, WATCH IT!!. The most intense competition SHOULD be between drivers on the same team , obviously, because certain teams have technical dominance from time to time thus precluding a win by any driver who's not fortunate enough to be on that team. Stirling Moss was OBVIOUSLY the best driver of his era but never won a world championship. If the drivers championship is rigged then why even have it??:furious
If you don't want to watch a team sport go watch snooker. :lou

[LAROSA SpA]

F1 is NOT a team sport !!!! It's for THE WORLD DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP. IT'S NOT TO FIND OUT WHO CHANGES TYRES QUICKEST. FOOTBALL IS TEAM SPORT, if you want to watch team sport, WATCH IT!!. The most intense competition SHOULD be between drivers on the same team , obviously, because certain teams have technical dominance from time to time thus precluding a win by any driver who's not fortunate enough to be on that team. Stirling Moss was OBVIOUSLY the best driver of his era but never won a world championship. If the drivers championship is rigged then why even have it??:furious

How can it not be a team sport, all those people in the garage & at the factory are just twiddling their thumbs & waving flags :roll

Get back to reality.

[Stormsearcher]

Doesn't matter WHO does it. IT'S WRONG!!!!. IT'S NOT SPORT!!!!!. IT'S NOT COMPETITION!!!!. IT IS CORRUPTION!!!! IT IS FALSE!!!. Ferrari is THE iconic team and therefore should set the highest standards. Obviously ferrari will attract the most critical scrutiny. Philippe DRIVE THE CAR HARD FROM START TO FINISH and dont let F1 become :-ZZ

You feel this way because you are seeing the drivers as separate from the team. It would be massively wrong if one team orders its drivers to let the other TEAMS driver past so that they could win... But within a team.. its strategy that ensures that the TEAM wins!!!!

[mandzipop]

F1 is NOT a team sport !!!! It's for THE WORLD DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP. IT'S NOT TO FIND OUT WHO CHANGES TYRES QUICKEST. FOOTBALL IS TEAM SPORT, if you want to watch team sport, WATCH IT!!. The most intense competition SHOULD be between drivers on the same team , obviously, because certain teams have technical dominance from time to time thus precluding a win by any driver who's not fortunate enough to be on that team. Stirling Moss was OBVIOUSLY the best driver of his era but never won a world championship. If the drivers championship is rigged then why even have it??:furious

Well a driver isn't going to win the WDC if the team take 45 minutes to change tyres.

Drivers come and go. Ferrari stays.