Hungarian Pickle

[killer]

Say how the first quarter of the Hungarian GP unfolds exactly like Hockenheim, do we stick to the plan?

[Hermann]

Which plan? Oh, sorry. Its late at night- this plan you mean.

I think that Massa and his race engineer very effectfully prevented this can be repeated in the next races. So no, i don't think so.

[crbassassin]

Which plan?

"Fernando is faster than you" plan

[Hermann]

"Fernando is faster than you" plan

Yeah i got it now. Thank you. :-)

[Brakefade]

Unless the FIA really screw us, we should stick to the plan. But I hope the team goes over what to do before the race to avoid any "I'm sorry" and "magnanimous" radio calls from Massa's engineer.

[kazi]

I hope the team does the best they can to give us maximum points to be able to clinch or atleast climb in both the WDC and the WCC rankings.

Alonso is ahead by quite some margin this season, so i hope our team tries their best to help him win the WDC. Ofcourse if Massa is ahead next season i fully hope they will try to maximum his points then.

Hope that made sense :wave

[vcs316]

Eyes on the prize.

Our sole focus should be to win both championships and not pacifying driver feelings.

[Tommy_F]

Eyes on the prize.

Our sole focus should be to win both championships and not pacifying driver feelings.

+1
Everyone knows their places now, hopefully everyone learned their lesson.

[Tifosi]

The position of our drivers has been made crystal clear. If Ferrari patronise Massa by letting him win this weekend then all it will do is serve to further highlight the weakness inside our management team. It would be a pointless and false token gesture anyway, arriving exactly one week too late.

If Massa wins a single race for the rest of the season, then Ferrari prove that they are uncommitted, in disarray, and rather depressingly trying to suck-up to public opinion.

I think all Massa fans would have less respect for Ferrari if they ***** any charity at him after what happened last Sunday.

[Greig]

Massa would be as well not showing up in that case then, bring in Fissi :-)

How about Felipe is 1st and Alonso is 4th, will they make a switch Stu? or will that be charity to Massa if he dominates the weekend, you know Ferrari might not be in a position to do any orders :-)

[Fiondella]

Broken record

[racingbradley]

How about Felipe is 1st and Alonso is 4th, will they make a switch Stu? or will that be charity to Massa if he dominates the weekend, you know Ferrari might not be in a position to do any orders :-)
My thoughts entirely. I rather hope that is the case this weekend!!!!!!! He He.:-):lol
I am not sure if putting all your eggs in one basket is good--------we are tempting providence here-------don't want to be explicit and hope it doesn't happen.:-??

[Tifosi]

Massa would be as well not showing up in that case then, bring in Fissi :-)

How about Felipe is 1st and Alonso is 4th, will they make a switch Stu? or will that be charity to Massa if he dominates the weekend, you know Ferrari might not be in a position to do any orders :-)

That's a very good point Greig. Obviously they will only do it if they can and it gains Alonso points without looking as obvious. What I meant was that they won't play the "awwww, we're back in Hungary - look everybody!" card for Massa's sake as this poll implies they might! cos that would be pointless (at least 7 pointless ;-)). It was also be very spineless and insulting to Massa!!

However, would they sacrifice WCC points for WDC points. that's a tough decision for our management to take isn't it? Or is it? :Hmm

[killer]

Broken record

What is? It's a hypothetical situation that, given the recent performance of the cars, may probably happen. I think it's a legitimate question to ask: do we follow through with pushing Fernando on or do we play the big heart card and not ask Felipe to move over should that situation arise?

[Tifosi]

What is? It's a hypothetical situation that, given the recent performance of the cars, may probably happen. I think it's a legitimate question to ask: do we follow through with pushing Fernando on or do we play the big heart card and not ask Felipe to move over should that situation arise?

They MUST follow through with Fernando. That die has been cast. Going back on it isn't really an option and it certainly wouldn't have the desired effect so it would be totally pointless.

[killer]

That's a very good point Greig. Obviously they will only do it if they can and it gains Alonso points without looking as obvious. What I meant was that they won't play the "awwww, we're back in Hungary - look everybody!" card for Massa's sake as this poll implies they might! cos that would be pointless (at least 7 pointless ;-)). It was also be very spineless and insulting to Massa!!

However, would they sacrifice WCC points for WDC points. that's a tough decision for our management to take isn't it? Or is it? :Hmm

My take, in general, goes along the lines of your last sentence. There was no intent to raise the possibility of further insulting Felipe as you imply. :-)

[racingbradley]

Ferrari always lead us to believe that they were more interested in the WCC and that usually brought us the WDC as well which was the icing on the cake. Macca on the other hand, of late, seem to prefer the WDC.
Obviously this year we are pandering to Nando's needs just as we did to Michael.
Massa is clearly no2 for sure even though he's just as quick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:-(

[Agron]

The damage is already done, if they now stick to let them race all this mess would have been for nothing, and will instead bring more criticism as being not only rule-breakers but also weak of mind. And of course the WDC could be lost by the few points not gained in Hungary too.

In case Fernando ends up exactly behind Felipe (not that likely considering he is consistently outqualifying him), they should have told them behind closed doors to let himself be overtaken, no codes, no nothing, once you see him in the mirrors, drive normally, even a bit slow if need be and don't defend, just that. Either that or a precise pit stop. Not like in Germany where he defended very hard only to clearly let him pass later. Done properly there's no way they can be prove there was a team order no matter how much does the brit press cry about it.
Otherwise they should keep their positions, the WDC is important, but the way the car is now, there's no point sacrificing WCC points as we could yet win that title.

And yes, putting all your eggs in one basket is bad, but the way the championship chances are, Alonso may have a 20-40% chance at winning the championship while Massa only had 1 or 2% considering the gap to the leader, their current performance level and the performance level of the leaders. It's not a case of putting all your eggs in one basket, it's desperate measures such as to amputate an arm to save the whole body and as such should be considered.

[Fiondella]

What is? It's a hypothetical situation that, given the recent performance of the cars, may probably happen. I think it's a legitimate question to ask: do we follow through with pushing Fernando on or do we play the big heart card and not ask Felipe to move over should that situation arise?

This argument has many of us polarised and frankly we know absolutely that the gaunlet has been thrown and team orders will be used wherever possible for the rest of the season in order to rescue the WDC. So if the situation arises again, Massa will definately be required to yield to Alonso.

[Hornet]

Sigh...
Ferrari isn't running for president. They will do whatever it takes to achieve result, because that is exactly what our competitors are doing.

[Stormsearcher]

If we are in a 1-2 position, i think it makes sense to ensure Nando takes it. We still get full points and one of our drivers stands a better chance at the WDC.
Realistically speaking, Felipe can forget winning a race this season (unless Alonso is out of the reckoning for that race). His job is clearly to rake in as much points as possible in the hope of gaining on the WCC too.

[FFFerrari]

They already chose to put eggs in FA basket, why not go all the way if it's possible. They are still more than one win away from the WDC lead, but luckily many races to go - but even one DNF might mean they can give up hopes for any titles this season.

[Suzie]

Not that I'd want 'charity' from the team regarding Felipe, but if they didn't let him win on the anniversary of his accident they'll hardly do it at the track where it happened. Unfortunately I've learnt the hard way that there's no room for sentiment in F1.

Hungary sucks anyway.

[Greig]

Hungary is his track though, I think he might well win off his own back no charity needed :-)

[Rob]

Felipe will be quick from FP1. He was dominating 08 before.... and he was looking good in 09 then :-s

Bridgestone will have super softs and softs this weekend. Both these compounds Felipe and the F10 use very well. Sure he will be out to mark his mark and show everyone that this track will be his, and no team orders. Fernando can still finish second and win another race to still be in WDC hunt.

[Silent Bob]

Yeah, Massa usually does very well at Hungary.. so if he has a massive lead or ALonso isn't near the front, then sure, let him take it. If he's leading and Alonso is behind him, then let him through.. early on in the race, not a few laps from the end. If the pass is made in the early stages, or if there's time during the pitstop, then it won't be as obvious.

[Silent Bob]

Felipe will be quick from FP1. He was dominating 08 before.... and he was looking good in 09 then :-s

Bridgestone will have super softs and softs this weekend. Both these compounds Felipe and the F10 use very well. Sure he will be out to mark his mark and show everyone that this track will be his, and no team orders. Fernando can still finish second and win another race to still be in WDC hunt.

No if there is the oppotunity for Alonso to pass MAssa for the extra 7 points he has to do it. Who knows at which track we'll be dominant and which we won't. Have to maximize points when you can

[JRX164]

We owe Felipe to support him as one Ferrari's drivers and the qualities that he has. But in the end, it's the championship that matters.

[xpman]

make Germany Pointless if Massa win while Alonso is on the track (naturaly if Alonso is in position he can't take a victory but Massa can ok ).
and if Alonso can win the wdc before end season and Massa in a position to win then he should be allowed to as a way say thank you from the Team

[Tifosi]

This argument has many of us polarised and frankly we know absolutely that the gaunlet has been thrown and team orders will be used wherever possible for the rest of the season in order to rescue the WDC. So if the situation arises again, Massa will definately be required to yield to Alonso.

... as long as a) we can get away with it and b) the WCC isn't affected? (if that is still the priority?!)

[Tifoso]

Wow, landslide :-)

Well done. :lou

[GamD]

Massa would be as well not showing up in that case then, bring in Fissi :-)

How about Felipe is 1st and Alonso is 4th, will they make a switch Stu? or will that be charity to Massa if he dominates the weekend, you know Ferrari might not be in a position to do any orders :-)


I think we are going to have to wait and see, if Massa does out preform it will be a hard to justify last weeks show. For the sake of Ferrari I hope Alonso can capitalise on his push forward and go right to the top or we end up and square 1 again.

[steve1971]

Eyes on the prize.

Our sole focus should be to win both championships and not pacifying driver feelings.


Agreed!!!

[Grillo]

The plan should be don't let teammates race if it's not absolutely necessary. If both cars are one behind the other and one is faster than the other, the faster car should be let go by the last third of the race. I think it was, is and will be the plan every time, always, forever. Amen.

[killer]

This argument has many of us polarised...

Understood, mate--but that's why I wanted to try if it can be discussed in a sober manner. I could have probably worded the starting post better, but the replies and discussions so far are fairly calm and I think confronting this issue in such a manner can help everyone move past it better. :-)

[Rishu]

Only one thing- We need to be consistent now & fully remain committed to let Alonso have any & every chance on taking the WDC

[coolrunnings_99]

But thats two, almost three things...

Its the other way around, he (the text message princess) should be the definition of flawless performace.


My money is on Massa, thrashing him from Friday morning till Sunday afternoon this weekend.

[Fiondella]

... as long as a) we can get away with it and b) the WCC isn't affected? (if that is still the priority?!)

Ok, why don't you come up with a couple of realistic scenario's where the application of Team Orders could adversely affect the WCC challenge?

[Fiondella]

But thats two, almost three things...

Its the other way around, he (the text message princess) should be the definition of flawless performace.


My money is on Massa, thrashing him from Friday morning till Sunday afternoon this weekend.

You may be right and it would indeed be an enthralling situation as long as they are 1 and 2 on Sunday and Massa yields right at the end:-D

[Grillo]

But thats two, almost three things...

Its the other way around, he (the text message princess) should be the definition of flawless performace.


My money is on Massa, thrashing him from Friday morning till Sunday afternoon this weekend.
Why so many derisive comments towards Alonso?

The WDC is nearly lost but if there's a Ferrari driver that still can fight for it, he is Alonso.

[coolrunnings_99]

Cause I dont like the bloke, not by a longshot.

There are many things that Alonso has done so far, and may things he has not.
"Text message princess", its not derisive nor was my intention, as its only just a funny poke, true aswell
He was also a lot of things in Monza 2006, Singapore 2008, and in his McDiesel stint in 2007.

On his to do list are still many things and all are ferrari related, a good and proper race, a good overtake, and last but not least a WDC.
On his done list, there is one dodgy win, one pukka win, and more then a fair share of mistakes, well avoidable if you ask me.

So, until he shines the way I like shining, he and all his fans just might endure a poke or two.


For a guy as amazing as Alonso, least he could do,and for sure does, is not giving away any rats behinds about what I think.
Multiply me into an racing audience, minus Fernando fans, and you might catch our drift.

Or you dont give a damn?


bye cool...

[Grillo]

Cause I dont like the bloke, not by a longshot.

Or you dont give a damn?

bye cool...
You don't like I understand, you don't respect... The rat comment I apologised and deleted it. I was off with some matters and I found your comment a bit too condescending at that moment. Sorry again.

Problem is you could say quite the same derisive comments about any succesful or unsuccesful F1 driver and I find it childish, immature and damaging for the sport. I like football but I don't get the point when people show their hatred against players, fans or teams. I don't like him is a cheap excuse.

[Hornet]

Cause I dont like the bloke, not by a longshot.

I always thought offensive comments against any of our own drivers are not welcome here

Especially not in a thread belong to someone else. I'm pretty sure the thread starter has no wish to turn this into yet another waste of bits and bytes lets-bash-our-own-driver session. Least you could do is show other members some respect.

[ferrari4life]

I always thought offensive comments against any of our own drivers are not welcome here

Especially not in a thread belong to someone else. I'm pretty sure the thread starter has no wish to turn this into yet another waste of bits and bytes lets-bash-our-own-driver session. Least you could do is show other members some respect.

there is a difference between an offensive comment made by a driver fanboy who comes here just to support a driver and not the team vs a ferrari fan who will be equally happy no matter who wins but doesn't particularly care for one driver.

[ferrari4life]

You don't like I understand, you don't respect... The rat comment I apologised and deleted it. I was off with some matters and I found your comment a bit too condescending at that moment. Sorry again.

Problem is you could say quite the same derisive comments about any succesful or unsuccesful F1 driver and I find it childish, immature and damaging for the sport. I like football but I don't get the point when people show their hatred against players, fans or teams. I don't like him is a cheap excuse.

i HATE LEWIS :-D

[Hornet]

there is a difference between an offensive comment made by a driver fanboy who comes here just to support a driver and not the team vs a ferrari fan who will be equally happy no matter who wins but doesn't particularly care for one driver.
Doesn't care would mean no mention of a person, not making negative statement about that said person :-D

Anyway, this is what I mean, stuff like this is provocative, fair enough if you do that at your own thread, but why the need to push a personal view in a way that would only cause more argument here. As the thread starter said, he has no intention to turn this into yet another internet cat fight, and I think we should respect that. I think all this argument is getting old.

I agree that not everyone can support both drivers equally, its everyone's own choice and right, but there's no need to flaunt it around.

[Stormsearcher]

i HATE LEWIS :-D

+2 :thumb

[Grillo]

i HATE LEWIS :-D
I "hate" him too but I know I wouldn't "hate" him that much if he wasn't talented. I don't waste my extreme rage with weenies. :-D

Seriously, what I hate the most about him is when the FIA or Whiting do the job requiered to save him a bad weekend but I know it's not his fault.

[coolrunnings_99]

Polish it all you want, I still dont like the guy.
He gets the same odd poke from me, as MS did.And I liked him a lot.

To use Fernando Alonso and sport in the same sentence ...is...umm ridiculous?Dont take my word for it, trust him.
He said F1 is not a sport anymore.
After that he turned his attention to text messaging, then turned the page and went down the bookies worst nightmares road.
Now he s here, after half a season, the boat is rocking and we re all over the scoreboard, right?

I have not insulted anyone, nor been derisive, no worse then any F1Toon, and surely do not hate anybody.

Many of you may like Alonso (Fonzo, Unibrow etc..get used to it), but I like Ferrari and its race&driver management, conduct, car development, etc.. is causing me trouble.

Generally, its difficult to hate someone, you couldnt care less about in the first place.

http://http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/mkgrunf/massa.jpg

[Agron]

Cause I dont like the bloke, not by a longshot.

There are many things that Alonso has done so far, and may things he has not.
"Text message princess", its not derisive nor was my intention, as its only just a funny poke, true aswell
He was also a lot of things in Monza 2006, Singapore 2008, and in his McDiesel stint in 2007.

On his to do list are still many things and all are ferrari related, a good and proper race, a good overtake, and last but not least a WDC.
On his done list, there is one dodgy win, one pukka win, and more then a fair share of mistakes, well avoidable if you ask me.

So, until he shines the way I like shining, he and all his fans just might endure a poke or two.


For a guy as amazing as Alonso, least he could do,and for sure does, is not giving away any rats behinds about what I think.
Multiply me into an racing audience, minus Fernando fans, and you might catch our drift.

Or you dont give a damn?


bye cool...The fact you mention Monza 2006 as one dark day from him is funny, considering what Massa and the FIA did to him that day, that was so unfair Massa should have cryed in shame just has he did last week. I guess you only see things from one angle, your angle, and to hell the rest.
He isn't perfect, but he is far from the villain you have convinced yourself he is. The fact you only believe 2007's McLaren's side of the story says it all, really.

[Tifosi]

Ok, why don't you come up with a couple of realistic scenario's where the application of Team Orders could adversely affect the WCC challenge?

Pretty simple really. If Massa has to reverse by more than one place.

[Tifosi]

Cause I dont like the bloke, not by a longshot.

There are many things that Alonso has done so far, and may things he has not.
"Text message princess", its not derisive nor was my intention, as its only just a funny poke, true aswell
He was also a lot of things in Monza 2006, Singapore 2008, and in his McDiesel stint in 2007.

On his to do list are still many things and all are ferrari related, a good and proper race, a good overtake, and last but not least a WDC.
On his done list, there is one dodgy win, one pukka win, and more then a fair share of mistakes, well avoidable if you ask me.

So, until he shines the way I like shining, he and all his fans just might endure a poke or two.


For a guy as amazing as Alonso, least he could do,and for sure does, is not giving away any rats behinds about what I think.
Multiply me into an racing audience, minus Fernando fans, and you might catch our drift.

Or you dont give a damn?


bye cool...

apparently we should be happy to win it - however we do it! I'm 100% with you on that one dude. I still say what we did last Sunday isn't the way to do it - not in race 11 - and in the manner it was done. People can tell me to get over it if they like but truth is that they just don't like hearing it.

[Greig]

Pretty simple really. If Massa has to reverse by more than one place.

LOL will you get over it soon? do you dismiss the strong case for it being a driver agreement what happened and not a team order?

[Tifosi]

LOL will you get over it soon? do you dismiss the strong case for it being a driver agreement what happened and not a team order?

I answered his question is all.

I can't forsee how long this will hack me off to be honest Greig. If the driver agreement is true, why was it done so begrudgingly? Why was it defended so unconvincingly after the race?

If it's proven to work both ways then fair enough.

[Greig]

I answered his question is all.

I can't forsee how long this will hack me off to be honest Greig. If the driver agreement is true, why was it done so begrudgingly? Why was it defended so unconvincingly after the race?

If it's proven to work both ways then fair enough.

So you believe Ferrari would move Felipe back 2 or more places to give Alonso one place? that's quite a scenario to paint.....

[Fiondella]

apparently we should be happy to win it - however we do it! I'm 100% with you on that one dude. I still say what we did last Sunday isn't the way to do it - not in race 11 - and in the manner it was done. People can tell me to get over it if they like but truth is that they just don't like hearing it.

Get over it :-D

[Tifosi]

Get over it :-D

heheh ;-)

[Tifosi]

So you believe Ferrari would move Felipe back 2 or more places to give Alonso one place? that's quite a scenario to paint.....

They would have to do it if it was the last race and the WDC depended on it so it depends when they feel that would be important. Swapping in race 11 for 7 points suggests to me that all things are now considered so it depends who is shouting loudest in our garage really.

[Greig]

They would have to do it if it was the last race and the WDC depended on it so it depends when they feel that would be important. Swapping in race 11 for 7 points suggests to me that all things are now considered so it depends who is shouting loudest in our garage really.

Well you are ok with anything goes in the last race so it won't be a problem will it :-)

Again you dismiss the 3 second agreement, to suit your own side of the fence :-)

[coolrunnings_99]

In Monza 2006 qualis, Massa did nothing wrong to Alonso.
Now, the race stewards, they did wrong him, and did it bigtime.
The fact to the matter is, the way he handled it, off track.
On track, he was just magnificent, I know it cause I was there at Variante Prima, he was 10 times faster then Fissi, and really drove the wheels of his Renault.Respect.It was beautifull to watch.
And when he blew his engine, while downshifting for Prima, he parked the stricken Renault, 15 meters away from us, the crowd.
Now back in those days, MS was a Ferrari driver, who won, and fought for Ferrari WCC&WDC.
If its of any consolation, I was perhaps the only guy on the stands clapping Unibrow away, with utmost respect (me, and 2 girls in Fernando gear, other folks werent had different opinions:-D), since he did put on a proper racing show.
When he starts doing that stuff in a Ferrari, there wont be any need for our pencilpushing sqad, to trip over themselves, and my red tinted glasses shall be re-installed with a vengeance.
You know, stuff like MS drive in 1996 Spanish GP.
No RC racing, just racing.

[Greig]

In Monza 2006 qualis, Massa did nothing wrong to Alonso.
Now, the race stewards, they did wrong him, and did it bigtime.
The fact to the matter is, the way he handled it, off track.
On track, he was just magnificent, I know it cause I was there at Variante Prima, he was 10 times faster then Fissi, and really drove the wheels of his Renault.Respect.It was beautifull to watch.
And when he blew his engine, while downshifting for Prima, he parked the stricken Renault, 15 meters away from us, the crowd.
Now back in those days, MS was a Ferrari driver, who won, and fought for Ferrari WCC&WDC.
If its of any consolation, I was perhaps the only guy on the stands clapping Unibrow away, with utmost respect (me, and 2 girls in Fernando gear, other folks werent had different opinions:-D), since he did put on a proper racing show.
When he starts doing that stuff in a Ferrari, there wont be any need for our pencilpushing sqad, to trip over themselves, and my red tinted glasses shall be re-installed with a vengeance.
You know, stuff like MS drive in 1996 Spanish GP.
No RC racing, just racing.

How about his drive with the broken clutch? worthy of Ferrari? I can see what you are saying and understand though :-)

[Tifosi]

Well you are ok with anything goes in the last race so it won't be a problem will it :-)

Again you dismiss the 3 second agreement, to suit your own side of the fence :-)

How does that work? My whole point was that race 11,12,13 whatever isn't the last race and that it is a completely different way of securing points towards a WDC.

The 3 second agreement has become the truth that best "fits" what we did for purposes of trying to avoid being done by the WMSC did but I don't think it's necessarily the whole truth is all.

[Greig]

How does that work? My whole point was that race 11,12,13 whatever isn't the last race and that it is a completely different way of securing points towards a WDC.

The 3 second agreement has become the truth that best "fits" what we did for purposes of trying to avoid being done by the WMSC did but I don't think it's necessarily the whole truth is all.

Yet Gene mentioned such a deal prior to the race, which seems a bit strange don't you think :-) You have previously said you have no problem with team orders in the last race, or when it's done by maths, so anything goes in the last race surely?

[Tifosi]

Yet Gene mentioned such a deal prior to the race, which seems a bit strange don't you think :-) You have previously said you have no problem with team orders in the last race, or when it's done by maths, so anything goes in the last race surely?

The last race im ok with and mathematically im ok with too. Swapping in race 11 over an agreement that was so badly implemented isn't summat I personally eaquate with that.

[Greig]

Ferrari have been doing it as long as I can remember, Austria 01 and 02 was earlier than 11 races, France 99 was earlier, I don't see how you can support the team through all that yet be surprised when they do it again :-)

[coolrunnings_99]

Thats the stuff, I am talking about Greig.
Entitelments to opinions are cheap these days, and mine is that when the going gets tough, Alosno will resort to different tools then I d like.

You see, for example, MS gets naughty, gets penalized, gets thrashed by oposition, or any xy crap happens, you fill in the blanks..and in the next morning he s testing, and there isnt a soul in the garages that isnt doing his 150 percent and everybody smiles.
The so called "shut up and drive" stance.
Or "talk silently and carry a big stick".

Or "I am close to my teammate, wich is in front of me, hit the PA system, and let everybody know what are my thoughts on whats ridiculous and whats not".


Btw, does anybody care about the fact that Massa started from 3rd, got his place fair and sqare come first turn?
And why do you think, that in the middle of the season, our twinkling star should ve been swapped up a place, for 7 points?

Though right in his decision, the team would we done far less harm if they simply told.."twinkle, twinkle well, pass him then if you re faster".

Then its up to them, not to crash into each other.And thats what they get paid for.

As the thread title suggest, the racing audience, can expect nothing less then the fact that in other half of the season, if 2 ferrais finsih, it will be in the exact same pre-determined order.


If we dont become champions, we re surely gonna become something else.