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DIEK
29th July 2010, 20:00
Dear international press.

I’m sending you this email because I would like to show you an opinion that could be the voice of Spain about the attitude that the English press has with the Scuderia Ferrari and specially, with Fernando Alonso for the events on the Germany Grand Prix.
It makes me feel sick to see how a team order affects everybody. It’s true that the team orders where prohibited after the events on 2002 with Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello, but, after that, we had seen so many team orders and we could see how this orders were “updating” on the last years.
First of all, I want to say that I’m agree with the penalty for the Scuderia Ferrari and that 100.000$ are more than perfect for that. Maybe the Scuderia Ferrari was very clear with the order to let Fernando pass, but the other teams in Formula One weren’t fair about the team orders. It’s true that no one of the orders on the last year, but, it’s very strange that in a sport where they have the highest technology we find miscalculations on the oil of the cars and the drivers, mysteriously are forced to low his speed when they have their teammate behind and how miraculously get the fuel for the rest of the race. Knowing that in all the circuit the fuel is more or less 4 liters/lap, adding the necessary for the installation lap and for coming back to boxes, how could it happen that teams who are fighting for the championship can make “miscalculations” that affect always the same drivers? In Turkey we save that the team told Lewis Hamilton to save fuel but the driver was afraid because Button was very near, of course, Jenson passed Hamilton and when Lewis was again in front of him, the team ordered Jenson to save fuel. Was Hamilton able to get miraculously the necessary fuel in that little space of time? Honestly, I don’t think so. And I say this order but there are a lot, like Webber and Vettel also in Turkey, Button in Germany, and if we go back in time: Brasil 2008 with Kimi Räikkönen and Brasil 2007 with Felipe Massa.
This is the extract of the team radio of the Turkish GP between Lewis Hamilton and their team. Available on the official Formula One website.

* MCLAREN: Lewis we need you to save fuel both cars are doing the same
* LEWIS: Jenson is closing in on me you guys
* MCLAREN: Understood lewis
* LEWIS: If I back off, is Jenson gonna pass me or not?
* MCLAREN: No Lewis, no
* After Button passes Lewis and Lewis passes Button:
* MCLAREN: Jenson we need you to save fuel, fuel is quite critical


About the attitude of the English press, I must say that the impartiality is bigger. One thing that give us internet is that we can see how what someone says in one race is different in other, for example we can see that in Red Bull they don’t have a number two driver and how Mark Webber said on the same race “not bad for the driver number two”, or for example how Fernando Alonso was attacked for the team orders, but, on the other hand, Lewis Hamilton wasn’t attacked for his incident with the Safety-Car on Valencia, just only one question and he said that “he don’t know what is he talking about”.
How is it possible that an English newspaper call Fernando Alonso a cheater when they have a driver that could have the best results in Formula One for his little time on this sport has also the biggest number of infractions? It’s now normal to ask us en each Grand Prix which will be the next infraction with Hamilton? Or which penalty will say or not the FIA? But in this year, the words “it’s the last time that you make this” is more common than the “save fuel” one on this season. With the team orders, it’s true that Ferrari was very clear with that, but, the English press didn’t remember Hockenheim 2008 when Heikki Kovalainen let Hamilton pass him on the same turn than Massa made the same with Fernando? We also saw how the finnish defend the team saying that it was his idea (also Massa said the same) and how McLaren renewed Heikki for another year on the team. Is not strange to see how on the last race in 2007 and 2008 the Ferrari on the first position is slower than the second one when he made his pitstop and how when the other driver made his pitstop is after that in front of the other teammate? I can be day and night telling you reasons why there are and there will be team orders in Formula One, but, maybe you won’t believe it, but it’s more important to believe the team and has a 1-2 on the race than have only one car on the track as happened with Red Bull on Turkey when Sebastian Vettel passed Mark Webber when the team told him, yes, the famous words “to save fuel”. Why if the FIA is investigating team orders and incidents in race don’t do the same with the “save fuel” words? Because in my opinion, they can have access to each part of the car and team and investigate it.
From here I would like to tell that I’m not against McLaren, Red Bull or Ferrari, and also not against drivers like Lewis Hamilton or Sebastian Vettel, but in what I’m against is on the attitude shown, and unfortunately will show the English press to the Spanish drivers, and see how the driver of MY country has to defend himself, and how to see how the people is very brave with no cameras but not behind a pen or a TV.
This last message is dedicated only to the English press. If you really think that Fernando is a dirty champion, or if you really think that Formula One is a Fraud-ula One, why do you defend a driver that has a nice race but 3 or 4 infractions every time? Why don’t you attack the FIA on the same way that you attack Fernando Alonso? It looks like that you are like school bullies, who seek the weakest guy, and in this case is the Spanish press, that instead of defend his driver they just copy the statements you put you insulting our driver and added at the end that “is a lack of respect "and does not show any defense. Show me that I’m wrong.
I hope and desire that one of you has read this opinion and if it’ possible, read yours, and you maybe think it’s impossible, but I would like to see that is possible to see peace on the F1, because maybe there is not fair play, but some people think that someday will be a nice sport again. We are asking you to be equal when you interview a driver and teams in Formula One.
If you want to tell me something you can make it to this email, and it’s sure that I will tell you something very soon.

__________________________________________________ _______________________________





In Spanish:

Estimada prensa internacional

Os hago llegar este mail para daros a conocer la opinión de la que podría ser la voz de España en relación a la actitud de la prensa inglesa hacía la Scuderia Ferrari y especialmente, hacia Fernando Alonso por lo sucedido en el pasado Gran Premio de Alemania de Fórmula Uno.

Indigna mucho el ver cómo una orden de equipo ha repercutido hacía todos. Cierto es que las órdenes de equipo se prohibieron después de los hechos acontecidos en 2002 con Michael Schumacher y Rubens Barrichello, pero a pesar de ello, hemos seguido viendo órdenes de equipo y hemos podido comprobar cómo a través de los años se han ido “actualizando” las formas de dar esas órdenes.

En primer lugar, decir que estamos de acuerdo con la sanción impuesta a la Scuderia Ferrari y que 100.000$ es más que correcto. La Scuderia Ferrari puede que no tuviera tacto a la hora de realizar su orden de dejar pasar a Fernando, pero no por ello las demás escuderías de la Fórmula Uno no han realizado lo mismo, porque parece curioso, que en un deporte donde existe la máxima tecnología nos encontramos con errores de cálculo en el depósito de gasolina de los monoplazas y los pilotos, misteriosamente, se ven obligados a bajar su rendimiento cuando tienen a su compañero de equipo detrás, y de cómo milagrosamente, se consigue la gasolina necesaria. Teniendo en cuenta el consumo medio de los circuitos es de 4 litros/vuelta añadiendo el necesario para la vuelta de reconocimiento y la vuelta a boxes, puede haber siempre, en las escuderías que luchan por el mundial, unos “errores de cálculo” que afectan siempre a los mismos. Ya pudimos ver cómo en Turquía a Lewis Hamilton le dijeron que ahorrara combustible a pesar del miedo del inglés a que Button le adelantara, y que cuando sucediera aquello, a Button le dijeran lo mismo. ¿Acaso Lewis consiguió milagrosamente la gasolina necesaria en tan poco tiempo? Sinceramente, no lo creo. Y nombro ésta orden de equipo por no nombrar muchas otras, como pudo ser con Webber y Vettel también en Turquía, Button en Alemania, y si nos vamos un poco más lejos: Brasil 2008 con Kimi Räikkönen, Brasil 2007 con Felipe Massa, etc.

A continuación os dejo como dato las decaraciones entre Lewis Hamilton y su equipo en el GP de Turquía:

MCLAREN: lewis we need you to save fuel both cars are doing the same
LEWIS: jenson is closing in on me you guys
MCLAREN: understood lewis
LEWIS: if i back off, is jenson gonna pass me or not?
MCLAREN: no lewis, no
Después de que Button adelantara a Lewis y que él se lo devolviera:
MCLAREN: Jenson we need you to save fuel, fuel is quite critical
En cuanto a la actitud mostrada por la prensa inglesa, debo decir que la poca imparcialidad que muestran cada vez es mayor. Una ventaja de internet es el acceso a la información y poder comprobar como unas declaraciones se contradicen entre una carrera y otra, de cómo se habla de igualdad en Red Bull y que Mark Webber diga públicamente que es el piloto número 2, o sin ir más lejos, de ver cómo a Fernando Alonso se le ha atacado por todos lados en Alemania por una orden que realizó el equipo, y en cambio ver como a Lewis Hamilton no le dijeron gran cosa en relación a su incidente con el Safety-Car en Valencia, tan solo una pregunta y además respondió “que no se acordaba que sucediera”.

MARK WEBBER: “Not bad for the number two driver”

¿Cómo es posible que un periódico inglés llame tramposo a Fernando Alonso cuando entre ellos tienen al piloto que puede tener el mejor palmarés en su poco tiempo en pista, pero también el mayor número de infracciones? Ya se ha convertido en rutina preguntarnos en cada Gran Premio ¿qué ilegalidad cometerá Hamilton? O ¿qué sanción se inventará la FIA? Aunque desde hace ya mucho tiempo la frase “es la última vez que se hace esto” es casi tan común como la de “save fuel” en esta temporada. Con las órdenes de equipo, bien es cierto que Ferrari fue muy clara, pero ¿acaso no se acuerda la prensa inglesa de Hockenheim 2008 cuando Heikki Kovalainen dejó pasar a su compañero Lewis Hamilton en la misma curva que Fernando adelantó a Felipe? Y de ver cómo el finlandés defendió a su escudería diciendo que fue idea suya y ver al día siguiente su renovación por un año. ¿No resulta extraño ver como en la última carrera de los mundiales 2007 y 2008 el rendimiento del Ferrari que iba en primera posición bajaba considerablemente al finalizar su primera parada en boxes de tal manera que el otro Ferrari conseguía adelantarlo? Podría pasarme día y noche mostrándoles motivos por los cuales existen y seguirán existiendo las órdenes de equipo, porque, aunque no lo parezca, más vale obedecer a tu escudería y que no ocurra nada a que acabe el casillero a 0 como con Sebastian Vettel en Turquía cuando le dijeron a Webber, si, la famosa frase de “save fuel”. ¿Por qué si la FIA investiga las órdenes de equipo y los accidentes no investigan el “save fuel” de cada carrera? Porque en mi opinión, ellos deben tener acceso a cualquier tema relacionado con el monoplaza.

Desde aquí quiero dejar claro que no estoy en contra de McLaren, Red Bull o Ferrari, ni mucho menos en contra de pilotos como Lewis Hamilton o Sebastian Vettel, de lo que sí me encuentro en contra es de la actitud que ha mostrado, y desgraciadamente seguirá mostrando la prensa inglesa hacia los pilotos españoles, y tener que ver como el piloto de MI país se debe defender solo, y de cómo la gente es muy valiente fuera de las cámaras, pero no detrás de un bolígrafo o en la televisión.

Este último mensaje va dirigido única y exclusivamente hacia la prensa inglesa. Si de verdad pensáis que Fernando es un campeón sucio, si de verdad pensáis que la Fórmula uno es un Fraud-ula Uno, ¿por qué defendéis a capa y espada a un piloto que de cada carrera buena hace 3 o 4 maniobras fuera de la legalidad? ¿Por qué no atacáis a la FIA de la misma forma que atacáis a Fernando Alonso? Parece que sois como los matones del colegio, que buscáis al más débil, y en este caso es la prensa española, que en vez de mojarse por su piloto solo copia las declaraciones que ponéis vosotros insultando a nuestro piloto y añaden al final un “es una falta de respeto” y no muestra defensa alguna.

Espero y deseo que alguno de vosotros haya leído esta humilde opinión y si es posible, conocer también la vuestra, y aunque parezca imposible, quisiera comprobar que haya más paz en la Fórmula Uno de la que debería haber, porque puede este deporte esté más amañado, pero algunos seguimos teniendo fe en que todo vuelva a ser como era antes. Pedimos también que haya una igualdad a la hora de entrevistar y tratar a los pilotos y escuderías de la Fórmula Uno.

__________________________________________________ _______________________________





In Italian:


All’attenzione della Stampa Internazionale
Egregi,vi invio questa e-mail per portarvi a conoscenza di quale è l’opinione spagnola in relazione all’atteggiamento della stampa inglese verso la Scuderia Ferrari e in particolar modo verso Fernando Alonso,in relazione a quanto è avvenuto nello scorso Gran Premio di Germania in Formula uno.
Indegna vedere come un ordine di scuderia si sia ripercosso su tutti.E’ vero che gl’ordini di scuderia sono proibiti,in seguito a quanto si verificò nel 2002 con Michael Schumacher e Rubens Barrichello;ma nonostante ciò abbiamo continuato a vedere ordini di scuderia e abbiamo potuto comprovare come nel corso degli anni i modi di dare ordini di scuderia si siano andati “attualizzando”.
In primo luogo,dire che che siamo d’accordo con la sanzione imposta alla Scuderia Ferrari di 100.000$ è più che corretto.Può essere che la Scuderia Ferrari non abbia avuto tatto nel dare l’ordine di lasciar passare Fernando Alonso,ma nemmeno le altre scuderie di Formula uno si risparmiano di darne;sembra curioso,che in uno sport dove c’è la massima tecnologia ci si scontri con errori di calcolo di benzina sulla monoposto e i piloti misteriosamente,si vedono obbligati a risparmiare benzina quando il compagno di squadra è dietro di lui;e come si riesce ad arrivare con la benzina necessaria ,tenendo presente che il consumo medio nei circuiti è di 4(quattro) litri a giro,aggiungendo il necessario rifornimento per il giro di prova e l’entrata ai box. Alcuni “errori di calcolo”riguardano sempre le stesse scuderie che lottano per il mondiale Abbiamo visto come in Turchia a Hamilton gli ordinarono di risparmiare benzina nonostante il timore del pilota inglese di essere sorpassato dal compagno di squadra Button,e quando a Button accadde lo stesso ripeterono lo stesso ordine. Casualmente Lewis Hamilton riusci a preservare, miracolosamente ,la benzina necessaria in così poco tempo? Detta con tutta sincerità non ci credo.Porto l’esempio di questo ordine di scuderia per non elencarne altre;come accadde a Webber e Vettel sempre in Turchia,a Button in Germania ,e per non andare troppo indietro nel tempo,2008 in Brasile con Kimi Raikkonen,2007 Brasile con Felipe Massa etc
A continuazione vi allego come dati i team radio tra Lewis Hamilton e la sua Scuderia nel Gran Premio di Turchia

* MCLAREN: lewis we need you to save fuel both cars are doing the same
* LEWIS: jenson is closing in on me you guys
* MCLAREN: understood lewis
* LEWIS: if i back off, is jenson gonna pass me or not?
*

MCLAREN: no lewis, no
*

Dopo che Button sorpassò Lewis Hamilton ridandogli il posto con questo team radio:
* MCLAREN: Jenson we need you to save fuel, fuel is quite critical


Riguardo all’atteggiamento dimostrato dalla stampa inglese denoto che la poca imparzialità che dimostrano, ogni volta è sempre maggiore.

Da un sondaggio in internet, accesso all’informazione si comprova come alcune dichiarazioni si contraddicano da una gara all’altra ; ad esempio si parla di parità in Red Bull e Mark Webber afferma pubblicamente che è il secondo pilota ,o senza andare troppo al di là ,vedere come Fernando Alonso venga attaccato da ogni dove in Germania per un ordine che la stessa Scuderia ha dato,e vedere come per Lewis Hamilton non ci fu un gran vociare in relazione al sorpasso della Safety Car a Valencia,alle domande che gli vennero fatte lui rispose:”non ricordo cosa è successo”;

Mark Webber:” Not bad for the number two driver”.

Com’è possible che un giornale inglese chiami imbroglione Fernando Alonso,quando tra loro c’è il pilota che può avere il miglior palmare nel suo poco tempo in pista ,ma anche il maggior numero di infrazioni? E’ di routine domandarci ad ogni Gran Premio che infrazione commetterà Hamilton? O Che sanzione si inventerà la Fia? Da molto tempo oramai la frase “è l’ultima volta che si fa questo” è diventata così comune come la frase“save fuel” in questo mondiale di Formula uno.

Con l’ordine di Scuderia ,è ben certo che Ferrari,sia stata molto chiara,ma…come mai la stampa inglese non ricorda Hockeneim 2008 quando Heikki Kovalainen lasciò passare il suo compagno di squadra Lewis Hamilton e vedere poi come il finlandese difese la sua Scuderia dicendo che era stata una sua idea e vedere inoltre il giorno dopo il suo rinnovo di contratto per un anno?…e aggiungo era la stessa curva dove Fernando Alonso ha sorpassato Massa.

Non sembra strano vedere come nell’ultima gara del Mondiale 2007\2008 il rendimento della Ferrari che era al primo posto si abbasso considerevolmente tanto che al primo pit-stop ai box l’altra Ferrari risci a sorpassarla?

Potrei passare giorni e notti dimostrandovi fatti per i quali esistono e continueranno ad esistere gli ordini di Scuderia,perché,sebbene non sembra,vale più obbedire alla tua Scuderia perché non accada nulla e si chiuda la faccenda o come con Sebastian Vettel quando in Turchia a Webber dissero”save fuel”.Perchè se la Fia investiga sugl’ordini di Scuderia e gl’incidenti non investiga sul “save fuel” di ogni gara? Perché secondo me devono avere accesso a qualsiasi tema che concerne la monoposto.

Da ciò voglio che sia ben chiaro ,non sono contro la Mclaren,Red Bull o Ferrari,tantomeno contro i piloti Lewis Hamilton,o Sebastian Vettel,ma certamente contro l’atteggiamento che ha dimostrato la stampa inglese e disgraziatamente continuerà a dimostrarlo verso i piloti spagnoli,e bisogna anche vedere come il pilota della mia Nazione Spagna si difenda da solo e di come la gente è molto coraggiosa al di là delle telecamere ma non dietro ad una penna o ad un televisore.

Quest’ultimo messaggio è diretto unicamente ed esclusivamente alla stampa inglese.Se veramente pensate che Fernando Alonso è un campione sporco ,se veramente pensate che la Formula uno è un Fraud-ula Uno …perché difendete tra alti e bassi un pilota che ad ogni buona gara commette 3 o 4 manovre illegali?Perchè non attaccate la Fia nella stessa misura che attaccate Fernando Alonso?

Sembra di essere come i teppisti del collegio,che cercate il più debole,in questo caso la stampa spagnola,che invece di difendere il suo pilota copia le dichiarazioni di voi altri insultando il nostro pilota e aggiungono in fondo”mancanza di educazione”senza dimostrare alcuna difesa.

Spero e desidero che qualcuno di voi legga questa umile opinione e se è possibile conoscere anche la vostra,e sebbene sembra impossibile vorrei provare che c’è più pace in Formula uno di quanto si possa pensare.Forse questo sport è il più truccato,ma in molti continuiamo a tenere fede affinché tutto torni ad essere come prima chiediamo anche che ci sia una parità nell’ora di interviste con i piloti e le Scuderie di Formula uno



:clap:clap:clap

Grillo
29th July 2010, 20:17
I think we should get WMSC email to send them a good video with all these incidents before September 10th.

REDARMYSOJA
29th July 2010, 20:24
Monaco 2007 is a better example. Ron admitted team orders were involved.


Ron Dennis - "You virtually have to decide in advance which one of the team's two drivers will claim the victory,"

"There will be places where they will be free to race, but this is not one of them because one driver pushing another will induce a mistake, and then you've a car out.

The FIA decision on the matter said it was OK.


But the FIA says it found that McLaren's actions in Monte Carlo "were entirely legitimate and no further action is necessary."

The statement also suggested that, when one of a teams' cars is leading a grand prix, it is legitimate for them to "ensure (that) their other car finishes second"...

"It is standard procedure for a team to tell its drivers to slow down when they have a substantial lead. "(McLaren) did nothing which could be described as interfering with the race result,"




Telling one driver to slow down is no different than telling one to let another pass. Both are done to prevent teammates wrecking each other. And both can affect the outcome.

Grillo
29th July 2010, 20:40
Monaco 2007 is a better example. Ron admitted team orders were involved.
Hmmm... Another life jacket for Ferrari. :thumb

adaco
29th July 2010, 20:47
I can post you what the press told me with those emails, but I think the best one is from The Independent:

EDIT: He ask our names.

Very very mature opinion, You'll see my answer to him very soon.

vagos
29th July 2010, 20:56
I can post you what the press told me with those emails, but I think the best one is from The Independent:

http://i32.tinypic.com/2j0nukp.jpg

Very very mature opinion, You'll see my answer to him very soon.

did they really reply like this?loosers

Greig
29th July 2010, 20:59
Typical Journo :-D can't handle the truths they are too afraid to print

Greig
29th July 2010, 21:02
Very very mature opinion, You'll see my answer to him very soon.

Invite him here :-)

adaco
29th July 2010, 21:10
That's my answer to him

EDIT: There won't be more images... for now

adaco
29th July 2010, 21:32
Oh my god... his answer is incredible!!! I'm still laughing!!!!! In some minutes i'll post it

adaco
29th July 2010, 21:54
EDIT: If someone wants the image, ask in on private. The only thing to say here is there are some words like **** and to go to the *****

DIEK
29th July 2010, 21:57
:-E

Greig
29th July 2010, 22:00
post his email addy here :-)

Tech_Skill
29th July 2010, 22:12
Oh my god... his answer is incredible!!! I'm still laughing!!!!! In some minutes i'll post it

Post his email address up, seriously, im not joking, ill speak to this idiot.

Julie B
29th July 2010, 22:15
Please curb your language, I'm sure there are many more words that you can use to express yourself

http://www.thescuderia.net/forums/showthread.php/27275-A-friendly-reminder-please-read....

Tech_Skill
29th July 2010, 22:18
Seriously, this person is insulting tifosi online? Give me his email addy or get him over here. Pronto.

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00186/12-spomot-hamilton_186948t.jpg

adaco
29th July 2010, 22:18
EDIT: There won't be more images about that

My answer

Tech_Skill
29th July 2010, 22:25
Someone PM me his email address..............im waiting.

adaco
29th July 2010, 22:32
Well, thereis another answer of this "guy", i just won't post the image because it hasmore insults... but this is getting really funny

Tech_Skill
29th July 2010, 22:35
Well, thereis another answer of this "guy", i just won't post the image because it hasmore insults... but this is getting really funny

So, private message me his email address and put it up here then, that way we can all speak to him yea???

LAROSA SpA
30th July 2010, 03:11
Seriously, put up his email address He is very insulting towards you.

We should find the WMSC email & give Ferrari some help by suppling evidence (of McCheaters).

Sianellen
30th July 2010, 08:47
Seriously, put up his email address He is very insulting towards you.

We should find the WMSC email & give Ferrari some help by suppling evidence (of McCheaters).

You are calling Mclaren "Mcheaters" but you want to use what they did to get Ferrari out of any punishment they could recieve. Funny how if Mclaren do it they are cheating but if we do it then it is all okay and we should be allowed to get away with it. :Hmm

Sure Mclaren may have got away with it, but people on here have before said that they should have be punished for it, so its hypocritical to now say "well they got away with it so should we". If you see something as wrong then it shouldn't suddenly change just because of who has done it.

Greig
30th July 2010, 08:49
McCheaters goes deeper than team orders I think, maybe spygate, maybe liegate :-)

Sianellen
30th July 2010, 09:00
McCheaters goes deeper than team orders I think, maybe spygate, maybe liegate :-)

I know that name does, I just find it amusing how he has used it, when he wants us to get away with something they got away with, that is in both cases something against the current rules.

Greig
30th July 2010, 09:01
I know that name does, I just find it amusing how he has used it, when he wants us to get away with something they got away with, that is in both cases something against the current rules.

I don't see anyone saying they cheated when using orders, we just want equality and if we can show others doing the same thing without punishment then why should we not? If the drivers agreed to the 3 second rule, and both knew the deal and arrangement then we can simply show it was not a team order but a driver decision.

Tifosi
30th July 2010, 09:07
I don't see anyone saying they cheated when using orders, we just want equality and if we can show others doing the same thing without punishment then why should we not? If the drivers agreed to the 3 second rule, and both knew the deal and arrangement then we can simply show it was not a team order but a driver decision.

I think that's totally fair enough. I'm just not convinced that that is actually true. Our defence of our actions wasn't very crystal clear or convincing.

Sianellen
30th July 2010, 09:08
I don't see anyone saying they cheated when using orders, we just want equality and if we can show others doing the same thing without punishment then why should we not? If the drivers agreed to the 3 second rule, and both knew the deal and arrangement then we can simply show it was not a team order but a driver decision.

It's still against the current regulations. Just because they got away with it, it doesn't entitle us to.

Greig
30th July 2010, 09:10
I think that's totally fair enough. I'm just not convinced that that is actually true. Our defence of our actions wasn't very crystal clear or convincing.

Stefano, and Luca Colithingy were clear it was a driver decision :-) and the comments from Rob have already been widely discussed

Greig
30th July 2010, 09:11
It's still against the current regulations. Just because they got away with it, it doesn't entitle us to.

Team orders are not allowed correct, driver agreements are not a team order :-) Felipe was in no way ordered to move, not once by the team.

And yes if others get away with it then it does entitle us to get away with it, can't have rules for some and rules for others :-)

Tifosi
30th July 2010, 09:14
Doesn't mean it was in the slightest way convincing..... and I speak as someone who would have been happy to be convinced by my drivers and team. :-)

Greig
30th July 2010, 09:16
Doesn't mean it was in the slightest way convincing..... and I speak as someone who would have been happy to be convinced by my drivers and team. :-)

Because you have choosen to ignore most of the things and focus on your feelings for Massa to be perfectly honest :-) Stefano and Luca were perfectly convincing despite the BBC leading questions.

Sianellen
30th July 2010, 09:19
Team orders are not allowed correct, driver agreements are not a team order :-) Felipe was in no way ordered to move, not once by the team.


If that is true and it was all Felipe's decision by himself based on the data he was presented with then I can sort of see your point :-)

Tifosi
30th July 2010, 09:31
Because you have choosen to ignore most of the things and focus on your feelings for Massa to be perfectly honest :-) Stefano and Luca were perfectly convincing despite the BBC leading questions.

your opinion. :-). This all boils down to how you read what was said and how it was said. Nice to think it was a driver decision. However, if that was clearly the truth, then how come Massa has "changed his mind" about what he would do this week-end if the situation arises again?

Maybe you are choosing not to see the inconsistancies in our "truth"! :-)

LAROSA SpA
30th July 2010, 09:32
I know that name does, I just find it amusing how he has used it, when he wants us to get away with something they got away with, that is in both cases something against the current rules.

I know that the teams will bend the rules (cheat) to try to get an advantage & I can live with that (I'd do it if I were in the same position).
The thing that really gets to me is their hypocrisy against us. When we are winning we are constantly cheating in their eyes & are killing the sport, but when we are doing they come out in the press stating they don't know whats happening to Ferrari & with all their resources experience etc. we should be doing better in a underlying patronising tone.

Plus this is a Ferrari forum & I don't like McLaren :-)

Greig
30th July 2010, 09:37
your opinion. :-). This all boils down to how you read what was said and how it was said. Nice to think it was a driver decision. However, if that was clearly the truth, then how come Massa has "changed his mind" about what he would do this week-end if the situation arises again?

Maybe you are choosing not to see the inconsistancies in our "truth"! :-)

He said he will win, for that I take it he won't let Alonso prove he is quicker, and therefore benefit from the agreement they both have with the team to make sure the fastest car is in front and they are not battling to cost themselves time and to risk a collision. Or maybe Alonso will be quicker again as has been the case for most of the season, we shall have to wait and see if we are in such a position again, let's hope so anyway :-)

Sianellen
30th July 2010, 09:41
I know that the teams will bend the rules (cheat) to try to get an advantage & I can live with that (I'd do it if I were in the same position).
The thing that really gets to me is their hypocrisy against us. When we are winning we are constantly cheating in their eyes & are killing the sport, but when we are doing they come out in the press stating they don't know whats happening to Ferrari & with all their resources experience etc. we should be doing better in a underlying patronising tone.
I don't really like it whoever does it, but thats just my view. I do see what you are saying though :-)


Plus this is a Ferrari forum & I don't like McLaren :-)
:thumb

Tifosi
30th July 2010, 09:48
He said he will win, for that I take it he won't let Alonso prove he is quicker, and therefore benefit from the agreement they both have with the team to make sure the fastest car is in front and they are not battling to cost themselves time and to risk a collision. Or maybe Alonso will be quicker again as has been the case for most of the season, we shall have to wait and see if we are in such a position again, let's hope so anyway :-)

I just hate it when we make ourselves look like we did - regardless of the circumstances. Hopefully we don't trip ourselves up or look like we did last Sunday cos evryone will be waiting for it to happen. The 3 second rule could either save our reputation or bite us hard.

LAROSA SpA
30th July 2010, 09:56
I don't really like it whoever does it, but thats just my view. I do see what you are saying though :-)

:thumb

Thats cool your more than entitled to your view & me mine, otherwise the Forum would be pretty boring :-)

Sianellen
30th July 2010, 10:05
Thats cool your more than entitled to your view & me mine, otherwise the Forum would be pretty boring :-)

Definatly :-D

Anni
30th July 2010, 11:27
your opinion. :-). This all boils down to how you read what was said and how it was said. Nice to think it was a driver decision. However, if that was clearly the truth, then how come Massa has "changed his mind" about what he would do this week-end if the situation arises again?

Maybe you are choosing not to see the inconsistancies in our "truth"! :-)

In my opinion it was a driver choice, not a driver desicion. The word desicion implies Massa agreed Alonso should be granted this win and the "plea" of the team to move over was the right thing to do. In my opinion he didn´t agree with that desicion and was very hurt by it, he didn´t see why he should move over, he had a right to win. He didn´t move over because he was a coward who was afraid to loose his job. Massa has often pointed out Ferrari is his second family. If your family would ask something from you which you are in fact not willing to give but you know it would make your family happy, how would you act?
He obeyed because the team was more important to him than his own happiness! That´s my opinion.

Now he changed his mind because he saw it has done nothing good. Neither him nor the team. Ferrari has received a lot of negativ press and the great double win was overshadowed completely. Massa has lost a lot of fans (though I don´t know of they could really be called "fans") and he lost a lot of support from Brazil.
His generous gesture has fired back and that is why he wouldn´t act like that again in my opinion.

Italian Spirit
30th July 2010, 12:50
Doesn't mean it was in the slightest way convincing..... and I speak as someone who would have been happy to be convinced by my drivers and team. :-)

Oh please Tifosi, stop behaving like an Outraged Virtuous Virgin. There is nothing to be convinced about.
Ferrari, like everybody else and since the beginning of F1, gave teams orders, so what?
What are you complaining about, the lack of hypocrisy? You would have preferred a "Save fuel!", a "Watch the brakes!", a "Your tyres need more care!", a slightly longer pit stop? :lewis:
Por favor, give us a break. :-)

Italian Spirit
30th July 2010, 13:14
An addendum to my previous post, an answer to Tifosi

Excerpt from "Le Matin", a Swiss daily (translated by Italian Spirit)

Massa: I'm not the number 2
(...)
In this din of opinions (after the German GP) Mark Webber had the most sensible remark: "Ferrari was right to do so" said the Australian. "The team has given a chance to Massa who has been very fast during the first stint, but on hard tires it was slower so Alonso was slowed down. It was logical to ask him to move over. If Felipe had managed to create a gap on Fernando, Ferrari would have let him win. It was up to Felipe to manage to be the fastest ..."
Mark Webber also believes that Ferrari has done well to act openly: "They could dress up the matter in a fictitious pit stop, or by prolonging a tire change. Nobody would have seen anything.
I prefer it to be clear ... "
(...)[/I]

http://www.lematin.ch/sports/formule-1/massa-ne-no-2-305194

I personally think Mark is one of the most honest persons in the circus of F1, but I don't know if he meets the moral standards of Tifosi... :-D

coolrunnings_99
30th July 2010, 14:02
Of course he ll say that.
Cause for his car to move over for a teammate, no pit radio will work or anything similar, anyways.
Perhaps a bazooka shot from the pits:-D, but then you get the same result as if you kept shtum, the whole race around;-)

Tifosi
30th July 2010, 17:06
Oh please Tifosi, stop behaving like an Outraged Virtuous Virgin. There is nothing to be convinced about.
Ferrari, like everybody else and since the beginning of F1, gave teams orders, so what?
What are you complaining about, the lack of hypocrisy? You would have preferred a "Save fuel!", a "Watch the brakes!", a "Your tyres need more care!", a slightly longer pit stop? :lewis:
Por favor, give us a break. :-)

Sorry i'm annoying you dude. I didn't realise we all had to fall in line with your point of view before it could be classed as a valid opinion. :-)

Actually, I would prefer it if we made our team orders actually appear as if we hadn't just made them up on the spur of the moment - yes. Then we wouldnt have brought all of this heat upon ourselves over it and we wouldn't be micro-scrutinised over the remainder of the season or up against the WMSC (that's a fact btw).

As i've said about 60 times, i understand that team orders are part of F1 and that everybody does it. That point is well trodden and irrelevant and I never ever said that they didnt or that we are the only team that implement them :roll .

The fact is that we were unconvincing - hence the fine and WMSC hearing - and other teams manage to do it without making it look so flipping obvious. The hypocrisy at large at the moment seems to be people who like to distinguish Ferrari from McLaren because of such things as blatancy and rule breaking, yet are happy to compare examples of the latter doing it as a means of defending the former.

As regards the accusation of being an Outraged Virtuous Virgin, i can assure you that I fail to qualify under all three catagories.

theodorus8864
30th July 2010, 17:49
Sorry i'm annoying you dude. I didn't realise we all had to fall in line with your point of view before it could be classed as a valid opinion. :-)

Actually, I would prefer it if we made our team orders actually appear as if we hadn't just made them up on the spur of the moment - yes. Then we wouldnt have brought all of this heat upon ourselves over it and we wouldn't be micro-scrutinised over the remainder of the season or up against the WMSC (that's a fact btw).

As i've said about 60 times, i understand that team orders are part of F1 and that everybody does it. That point is well trodden and irrelevant and I never ever said that they didnt or that we are the only team that implement them :roll .

The fact is that we were unconvincing - hence the fine and WMSC hearing - and other teams manage to do it without making it look so flipping obvious. The hypocrisy at large at the moment seems to be people who like to distinguish Ferrari from McLaren because of such things as blatancy and rule breaking, yet are happy to compare examples of the latter doing it as a means of defending the former.

As regards the accusation of being an Outraged Virtuous Virgin, i can assure you that I fail to qualify under all three catagories.

Points taken. Can't avoid the facts that we were not doing the team orders as 'clean' as other teams do, which risked the team facing consequences by FIA and WMSC.
Assignment for the team to sort out the way at its best. :-)

racingbradley
30th July 2010, 20:03
I personally think Mark is one of the most honest persons in the circus of F1, but I don't know if he meets the moral standards of Tifosi... :-D
Maybe Mark would not be "one of the most honest people in the circus of F1" if he had been on the receiving end last Sunday---I rather think he would have ignored/misunderstood the call from his race engineer!!!!!
Do you think that Tifosi is alone in his thinking???????
There are a lot more of us.:lol

flam147
31st July 2010, 00:23
i just find it funny that nothing was said by the stewards untill the bbc started stiring it afterwards

mad_ani
31st July 2010, 01:25
Team orders are not allowed correct, driver agreements are not a team order :-) Felipe was in no way ordered to move, not once by the team.

And yes if others get away with it then it does entitle us to get away with it, can't have rules for some and rules for others :-)




Originally Posted by mad_ani
Why does Massa have to be told who the faster of the 2 cars is??I do know that drivers like Vettel ask the team radio...this was a case where Rob told him, and ask him if he understood the message???
Why??because Massa's english is so bad, he didnt know what magnanimous meant???

Alonso was faster than Massa in Australia...why was he not told the same then???





Originally Posted by Greig
Are you a bit slow? we all know what it was, it was a order to move, no need for your riddles

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Are you not contradicting yourself??

REDARMYSOJA
31st July 2010, 03:22
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Are you not contradicting yourself??

No, he's not. Felipe was never told to move over, but we all know what was going on.

adaco
31st July 2010, 08:56
Okay, I have some news for all.

This email was the first thing commented on the paddock yesteraday. We were announced on the Valencian TV, and in some blogs of some press. Now they know who am I, and I'll tell you the next step will be a petition online like the one of 2007. I'll tell you something when it will be done, but, like the one of 2007, we'll need to make it in all languages possible.

See you!

LAROSA SpA
31st July 2010, 09:28
Okay, I have some news for all.

This email was the first thing commented on the paddock yesteraday. We were announced on the Valencian TV, and in some blogs of some press. Now they know who am I, and I'll tell you the next step will be a petition online like the one of 2007. I'll tell you something when it will be done, but, like the one of 2007, we'll need to make it in all languages possible.

See you!

Good work :thumb

Italian Spirit
31st July 2010, 18:56
Sorry i'm annoying you dude. I didn't realise we all had to fall in line with your point of view before it could be classed as a valid opinion. :-)

Actually, I would prefer it if we made our team orders actually appear as if we hadn't just made them up on the spur of the moment - yes. Then we wouldnt have brought all of this heat upon ourselves over it and we wouldn't be micro-scrutinised over the remainder of the season or up against the WMSC (that's a fact btw).

As i've said about 60 times, i understand that team orders are part of F1 and that everybody does it. That point is well trodden and irrelevant and I never ever said that they didnt or that we are the only team that implement them :roll .

The fact is that we were unconvincing - hence the fine and WMSC hearing - and other teams manage to do it without making it look so flipping obvious. The hypocrisy at large at the moment seems to be people who like to distinguish Ferrari from McLaren because of such things as blatancy and rule breaking, yet are happy to compare examples of the latter doing it as a means of defending the former.

As regards the accusation of being an Outraged Virtuous Virgin, i can assure you that I fail to qualify under all three catagories.

I gladly accept the last line of your post, take back the terms Outraged Virtuous Virgin, congratulate you not to qualify for any of such terms and appreciate your humor. :-D Quite rare around here, sometimes.

Now let's go back to the first line of your post: wasted irony, amico, I simply expressed my opinion on a fact and… on your opinion.

You write:
"Actually, I would prefer it if we made our team orders actually appear as if we hadn't just made them up on the spur of the moment"
(…)
"The fact is that we were unconvincing - hence the fine and WMSC hearing - and other teams manage to do it without making it look so flipping obvious."

What a hymn to hypocrisy, Tifosi! :roll

The same hypocrisy that you denounce in a circumlocution worthy of the best (or worst) UNO's Diplomats:

"The hypocrisy at large at the moment seems to be people who like to distinguish Ferrari from McLaren because of such things as blatancy and rule breaking, yet are happy to compare examples of the latter doing it as a means of defending the former".

Wait, let me breath…:-)

And I quote you again:

"Then we wouldn't have brought all of this heat upon ourselves over it and we wouldn't be micro-scrutinized over the remainder of the season or up against the WMSC"

Ferrari isn't simply a team; Ferrari is a legend and the very soul of F1. As such it always had, and always will, raise heat upon itself, as well as envy, jealousy and micro-scrutinizing (and spying, and stealing, and…).
:ferrarifl Many enemies, much honor! :ferrarifl

As for the WMSC… :tongue

All this being said, keep posting Tifosi. "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (Voltaire, I think).
I'll watch for your posts. It's refreshing to read somebody who respects grammar and syntax. :wave

Tifosi
31st July 2010, 21:49
I gladly accept the last line of your post, take back the terms Outraged Virtuous Virgin, congratulate you not to qualify for any of such terms and appreciate your humor. :-D Quite rare around here, sometimes.

Now let's go back to the first line of your post: wasted irony, amico, I simply expressed my opinion on a fact and… on your opinion.

You write:
"Actually, I would prefer it if we made our team orders actually appear as if we hadn't just made them up on the spur of the moment"
(…)
"The fact is that we were unconvincing - hence the fine and WMSC hearing - and other teams manage to do it without making it look so flipping obvious."

What a hymn to hypocrisy, Tifosi! :roll

The same hypocrisy that you denounce in a circumlocution worthy of the best (or worst) UNO's Diplomats:

"The hypocrisy at large at the moment seems to be people who like to distinguish Ferrari from McLaren because of such things as blatancy and rule breaking, yet are happy to compare examples of the latter doing it as a means of defending the former".

Wait, let me breath…:-)

And I quote you again:

"Then we wouldn't have brought all of this heat upon ourselves over it and we wouldn't be micro-scrutinized over the remainder of the season or up against the WMSC"

Ferrari isn't simply a team; Ferrari is a legend and the very soul of F1. As such it always had, and always will, raise heat upon itself, as well as envy, jealousy and micro-scrutinizing (and spying, and stealing, and…).
:ferrarifl Many enemies, much honor! :ferrarifl

As for the WMSC… :tongue

All this being said, keep posting Tifosi. "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (Voltaire, I think).
I'll watch for your posts. It's refreshing to read somebody who respects grammar and syntax. :wave

A most verbose yet directionless missive mio amico. I've read it twice now but still fail to see my own hypocrisy - please enlighten me in simple and clear terms (if possible) so that i can understand it and feel suitably regretful and ashamed. :-)

I also seem to have completely bypassed the irony of which you speak - although i've noticed that people tend to speak of "irony" when it isn't there - which is ironic in itself I always find!

Also, I appreciate the sentiment at the end dude but can't help wishing that you had toned down the patronising manner in which you proclaim your noble point which seems to me to be "Ferrari are Ferrari so there" and explain to me if it was meant to mean something else! ;-)

Finally, you don't seem to have acknowledged my point which was that I never said Team Orders were peculiar to Ferrari. In fact i'm not sure you got my point at all! :Hmm

MASSUM THE GREATEST
31st July 2010, 22:38
All this being said, keep posting Tifosi. "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (Voltaire, I think).


That quote is often attributed to Voltaire but is unsubstantiated. It is actually by S.G. Tallentyre who was merely seeking to encapsulate Voltaire's feeling towards another author.:-)

Suzie
1st August 2010, 00:54
That quote is often attributed to Voltaire but is unsubstantiated. It is actually by S.G. Tallentyre who was merely seeking to encapsulate Voltaire's feeling towards another author.:-)

I agree. And while we're on philosophy, let me just offer this:

"All we are is dust in the wind, dude." Bill and Ted, 1989.

Thanks for making this thread more highbrow, Italian Spirit. Thank you a thousand times. :-)

Tifosi
1st August 2010, 09:53
Mmmm... then I guess the moral is, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
[/URL]Maybe there is no moral, Mom.

[URL="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0144657/"] (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0810379/) "Exactly! It's just a bunch of stuff that happened." Homer (1991) ;-)

Kingdom Hearts
1st August 2010, 10:23
The Spanish TV is going to show the press conference today, I hope someone upload it to youtube.

Italian Spirit
1st August 2010, 18:04
A most verbose yet directionless missive mio amico. I've read it twice now but still fail to see my own hypocrisy - please enlighten me in simple and clear terms (if possible) so that i can understand it and feel suitably regretful and ashamed. :-)

I also seem to have completely bypassed the irony of which you speak - although i've noticed that people tend to speak of "irony" when it isn't there - which is ironic in itself I always find!

Also, I appreciate the sentiment at the end dude but can't help wishing that you had toned down the patronising manner in which you proclaim your noble point which seems to me to be "Ferrari are Ferrari so there" and explain to me if it was meant to mean something else! ;-)

Finally, you don't seem to have acknowledged my point which was that I never said Team Orders were peculiar to Ferrari. In fact i'm not sure you got my point at all! :Hmm

You, Tifosi, calling me "verbose"? :haha: Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Your last post is cerebral onanism, so I think it's decent of me to let you alone... :wave

Tifosi
1st August 2010, 18:11
You, Tifosi, calling me "verbose"? :haha: Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Your last post is cerebral onanism, so I think it's decent of me to let you alone... :wave

OK dude. if you don't intend to explain yourself or answer any points raised then fine. So long as I know :-)

Italian Spirit
1st August 2010, 18:12
Mmmm... then I guess the moral is, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
[/URL]Maybe there is no moral, Mom.

[URL="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0144657/"] (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0810379/) "Exactly! It's just a bunch of stuff that happened." Homer (1991) ;-)


Would have been surprised you quoted the other Homer, you know, the ancient Greek? :-D

Tifosi
1st August 2010, 18:22
Would have been surprised you quoted the other Homer, you know, the ancient Greek? :-D

that was the joke after all ;-)

Italian Spirit
1st August 2010, 18:36
that was the joke after all ;-)

Mine too. Lost...:-G

Tifosi
1st August 2010, 19:06
Mine too. Lost...:-G

i'll add it to the list of unexplained phenomena in your posts then :thumb

Greig
1st August 2010, 19:08
Get a room you two :-D

Italian Spirit
1st August 2010, 20:39
Get a room you two :-D

Jealous! :-P

Tifosi
1st August 2010, 20:41
Jealous! :-P

He's not coming ;-)

Italian Spirit
4th August 2010, 10:31
He's not coming ;-)

Dont like blind dates. :-D