Red Bull Team Orders

[Tech_Skill]

So who thinks Red Bull ordered Vettel to hold up Alonso and co, which lead to Vettel getting the penalty and ruining his race?

[Julie B]

:roll

[Greig]

No, Vettel admitted he was sleeping and had no radio to tell him what to do LOL :-)

[ferrari4life]

if they told vettle to slow down the pack it would be recorded on radio conversation and they would be pnalized for that. no way they could have dreamed up that situation before hand to have a code word ready.

[mad_ani]

Wasnt a team order....as Vettel said in PC

leader usually bottles up the field...but Mark stuck up...but Vettel had radio problems and thought SC was going in the next lap...so he was slow...

Not a team order IMO

[Hornet]

For a moment I thought he was angry at his team with is gesture in the pits, hinting that they may have told him to do so... but he was probably just angry in general. Who knows

Edit: my bad. Guess that clears things up

[ferrari4life]

Wasnt a team order....as Vettel said in PC

leader usually bottles up the field...but Mark stuck up...but Vettel had radio problems and thought SC was going in the next lap...so he was slow...

Not a team order IMO

i belive the car has a display that shows when safety car is coming in

[Tech_Skill]

I ask because its whats being debated elsewhere, just wanted to see what everyone else thought, there are accusations flying around everywhere.

[mad_ani]

i belive the car has a display that shows when safety car is coming in

Mark pulled away from him while Vettel was slow...Mark put him 10 car lengths behind...he got the penalty...did fast laps and ended up on a podium...but no one can exactly measure 10 car lengths precisely....

[MASSUM THE GREATEST]

Not me.

[Brakefade]

It was pretty funny watching Vettel complain to Whiting, and then Alonso just smiling and walking away.

[Haris]

No, Vettel admitted he was sleeping and had no radio to tell him what to do LOL :-)

Vettel said he lost radio somewhere during the first stint. How did he manage to pit just in time, we clearly saw he almost passed the pit entry and then braked heavily to come in? We even heard later him asking his engineer why was he handed a penalty.

Strange for all that to happen if he really lost his radio during the first stint, as he said...

[Tech_Skill]

Vettel said he lost radio somewhere during the first stint. How did he manage to pit just in time, we clearly saw he almost passed the pit entry and then braked heavily to come in? We even heard later him asking his engineer why was he handed a penalty.

Strange for all that to happen if he really lost his radio during the first stint, as he said...

I think Horner just admitted his radio was working at the time of pit, but that the radio was on and off intermittantly, the thing here is that the radio transmission are all live, so i dont see how red bull could give an order or coded order without the tv picking it up.

[slither]

Team order or not, he got what he deserved 'a drive through'. Nice to see we have pace even on a track that could be called 'built for RBRs'. If we keep this pace we will be monsters at Monza and hopefully at Spa.

It was also good to see Ham's DNF and Button's suffer.

[Alonsomaniac]

Could also be that Vettel was trying to be clever but instead shot his own foot.
Maybe he thought he could help Webber by letting him get away and then later on after the stop coming back between himself and Alonso.
That would have given Vettel the win and Red Bull a 1-2, and Vettel the hero in his team.

[Tifosi]

Could also be that Vettel was trying to be clever but instead shot his own foot.
Maybe he thought he could help Webber by letting him get away and then later on after the stop coming back between himself and Alonso.
That would have given Vettel the win and Red Bull a 1-2, and Vettel the hero in his team.

What's so funny about this is that they want us to believe that Seb caused his own issue with no input from the team - yet his attitude and body language screams summat completely different!

[FFFerrari]

What's so funny about this is that they want us to believe that Seb caused his own issue with no input from the team - yet his attitude and body language screams summat completely different!

It was his own fault, he was sleeping in the cockpit. He is just making excuses about it.

[Tifosi]

It was his own fault, he was sleeping in the cockpit. He is just making excuses about it.

Why was he so angry and sulky then? Surely he knows when he's ballsed up?

[nikhil4356]

According to Joe Saward

Sebastian Vettel drove away at the front, building up a lead of 11.7secs before a Safety Car intervened, as a result of debris on the track. As all the major runners pitted, Webber and his engineers decided to stay out on the soft tyres. This gave him clear road and he immediately began to pull away, while Vettel fell foul of the rules because he dropped too far behind the Safety Car. He explained later that his radio was not working but the stewards presumably felt that the manoeuvre was designed to give Webber an advantage, the plan presumably being to give the Australian space to make up ground and get ahead of Alonso when he finally stopped. This is probably the explanation for the drive-through penalty, which dropped him behind Alonso.

Here is the link

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/08/01/webber-wins-in-hungary/

[Greig]

What's so funny about this is that they want us to believe that Seb caused his own issue with no input from the team - yet his attitude and body language screams summat completely different!

Red Bull had no need to even try and hold Alonso back, Vettel just drove away from him when he realised the SC came in, could see it being a order if he did hang back and block Alonso but he never :-) He was telling the FIA guy after the race he had lost his radio and he had not done it intentionally, I think he was upset with himself and rightly so :-)

[RED]

It looked to me Christian Horner was lying through his teeth about the radio but it's just me. :lou :-D

[Tifosi]

Red Bull had no need to even try and hold Alonso back, Vettel just drove away from him when he realised the SC came in, could see it being a order if he did hang back and block Alonso but he never :-) He was telling the FIA guy after the race he had lost his radio and he had not done it intentionally, I think he was upset with himself and rightly so :-)

he should concentrate on being angry at himself then heheh :-). Looks like he had some issues outside of that to me tbh.

[nikhil4356]

Had there been no team orders vettel would never have left such a big gap between him and webber even for the argument of warming up tyres. He would have tug to webbers rear constantly cause the last thing he would want is being beaten by his team mate. Cause Vettel started to up his pace in order to built a gap between him and Alonso once steward intervened.Till then he never made an attempt to close gap to Webber assuming he mistimed safety car exit. RedBull gambeled for Webber getting ahead of Alonso at the expense of Vettle which they will regret after they lose the WDC championship to Alonso cause their drivers are take points of each other which will in turn benefit Alonso.

[Tifosi]

Had there been no team orders vettel would never have left such a big gap between him and webber even for the argument of warming up tyres. He would have tug to webbers rear constantly cause the last thing he would want is being beaten by his team mate. RedBull gambeled for Webber getting ahead of Alonso at the expense of Vettle which they will regret after they lose the WDC championship to Alonso cause their drivers are take points of each other which will in turn benefit Alonso.

i'm with you on that one mate. Vettel was not acting like a man who messed up by dropping too far back purely of his own accord. Also, as you say, why would he do it to such extreme unless under order to do it to help out Webber?

Lovely little conspiracy theory.

Vettel gives the game away really.

[Hooligan]

Arogance lead to ignorance:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

[Rob]

To me that did look rather dodgy. Why was he so upset, so upset with Webber aswell, hardly cogratulated him. Stormed off as soon as he got out of car. Before that as he parked nearly took out the #3 sign (fair to him, hard to see front of nose). Who was Helmut on phone to straight after safety car came in and Webber half way down straight??? :-?? As i said in another thread, seems like FIA are turning blind eye to some of RBR's goings on. Thats just what i feel and think, i know it paranoia, :rollbut...... its F1. :lol

another thing, how come we havent heard the radio between Vettel and pits to confirm that he was having problems with radio??? if it was us, we would of heard (FIA would of released ) all the chat asking if can hear pits ok and if pits can hear driver ok. Or doing radio checks.

Why doesnt Horner just come out saying.."yeah we asked Seb to slow little, as having ................ (fill in blank with an made up issue, tyres, brakes over heating, engine over heating as from running close to webber etc etc ;-))

[Greig]

Horner was speaking to Vettel again, which suggests his radio to his engineer was down as he said, to be a good theory then there has to be some sort of evidence, the fact Vettel just drove away from Alonso at the restart kind of suggests he was not ordered to hold Alonso back at all, Webber had to make up 20 seconds, and Vettel held up Alonso for about 1 of those and nothing more :-) He was angry about the penalty during the race and right after, we heard him asking the FIA guy why he got it as they went to the podium, once he sat and watched it I think he realised and was soon admitting his mistake, seemed honest enough to me :-) Still he did have a great strop over it :-D

[Rob]

Horner was speaking to Vettel again, which suggests his radio to his engineer was down as he said, to be a good theory then there has to be some sort of evidence, the fact Vettel just drove away from Alonso at the restart kind of suggests he was not ordered to hold Alonso back at all, Webber had to make up 20 seconds, and Vettel held up Alonso for about 1 of those and nothing more :-) He was angry about the penalty during the race and right after, we heard him asking the FIA guy why he got it as they went to the podium, once he sat and watched it I think he realised and was soon admitting his mistake, seemed honest enough to me :-) Still he did have a great strop over it :-D

:thumb true, my mind flys off with all ideas :-P

But as you say mate, great great strop. We were laughing over that 1.

[goferrarigo]

Horner was speaking to Vettel again, which suggests his radio to his engineer was down as he said, to be a good theory then there has to be some sort of evidence, the fact Vettel just drove away from Alonso at the restart kind of suggests he was not ordered to hold Alonso back at all, Webber had to make up 20 seconds, and Vettel held up Alonso for about 1 of those and nothing more :-) He was angry about the penalty during the race and right after, we heard him asking the FIA guy why he got it as they went to the podium, once he sat and watched it I think he realised and was soon admitting his mistake, seemed honest enough to me :-) Still he did have a great strop over it :-D
+1

[nikhil4356]

Horner was speaking to Vettel again, which suggests his radio to his engineer was down as he said, to be a good theory then there has to be some sort of evidence, the fact Vettel just drove away from Alonso at the restart kind of suggests he was not ordered to hold Alonso back at all, Webber had to make up 20 seconds, and Vettel held up Alonso for about 1 of those and nothing more :-) He was angry about the penalty during the race and right after, we heard him asking the FIA guy why he got it as they went to the podium, once he sat and watched it I think he realised and was soon admitting his mistake, seemed honest enough to me :-) Still he did have a great strop over it :-D

Vettel slowed Alonso enough to give webber 2sec (may be less or more)lead at the restart of the race. If one looks at the replays Vettel significantly slowed when saftey car was about to exit. Suppose if vettel botched up the start, he wasn't trying hard to reduce the gap to webber for the first 4 to 5 laps. In normal racing conditions after losing 2 sec to webber he would have made every attempt to reduce that gap, which indicates he knew webbers strategy and was part of it. If vettel would have kept gap under 4 sec to webber till his drive through who knows he would have emerged ahead of Alonso after drive through penalty; smilar to last year where webber won after drive through. Its just my thought cause i strongly feel that even a debutant in f1 will be at the back of leading car waiting for the oppurtunity unless specifically instructed by the team.

[Greig]

Vettel slowed Alonso enough to give webber 2sec (may be less or more)lead at the restart of the race. If one looks at the replays Vettel significantly slowed when saftey car was about to exit. Suppose if vettel botched up the start, he wasn't trying hard to reduce the gap to webber for the first 4 to 5 laps. In normal racing conditions after losing 2 sec to webber he would have made every attempt to reduce that gap, which indicates he knew webbers strategy and was part of it. If vettel would have kept gap under 4 sec to webber till his drive through who knows he would have emerged ahead of Alonso after drive through penalty; smilar to last year where webber won after drive through. Its just my thought cause i strongly feel that even a debutant in f1 will be at the back of leading car waiting for the oppurtunity unless specifically instructed by the team.

Vettel was on the harder tyre, which takes some laps to get up to speed, he did not need to reel Webber in and ruin his tyres in the process, as he was clearly going to lead when Mark pitted for his stop :-) Why would Red Bull suddenly back Webber when everything they have done previously is to make Vettel champ? :-)

[nikhil4356]

But surely he gave webber 2 sec lead at the start. This gap is way to much even considering that safety car was to stay for one more lap. Vettel and Alonso were on hard tyres so in normal racing so he should have pulled away from Alonso but wasn't the case. One can argue that Vettel was just nursing the car knowing webber had a pitstop to make but a gap of 2 sec to Alonso when webber was 6 sec ahead of him and then subsequently vettel set the fastest laps after instructions from engineer and got enough gap to massa till his penalty raises doubts in my mind. Redbull gambled to get webber ahead of Alonso at the expense of Vettel and lost the gamble. They were scating on thin ice hoping to get away with it but unfortunately they lost. This will hurt them if Vettel looses championship by 5-10 points.

[Greig]

He said he thought the SC was doing another lap, so if it did he would have been closer, he gave Webber a gap because his own words "was sleeping" and did not know the SC was coming in that lap. He did pull away from Alonso though easily why do you say he never? Again why would Red Bull suddenly favour Webber? If they wanted Webber ahead then why did they not just pit Webber at the SC and leave Vettel out?

[Stormsearcher]

Seems like both theories are plausible.

But could it be that RB were caught out with regards to webber and instead of doing what Ferrari did, bring both cars in at the same time, they let one stay out.. and they let mark do this, cause IF instead of doing 40 odd laps on his soft rubber, he had to come in much earlier due to degradation or whatever, they he would have lost out to vettel, nando and prbly even massa. They let webber take the risk instead of vettel, but it worked out the other way round as those tyres were ruddy good.

[coysht]

If anything, by not pitting Webber under the safetycar, isn't that an example of how they were favouring Vettle and trying to protect his race lead from the potential of a charging Webber?........

OK, I am just poking things with a stick for my own amusement now.


Vettle let the gap to Webber extend on more than one occasion, not just at the re-start - the example FOM decided to show us when the drive through was announced was of Vettle dropping back along the pit straight, probably at the start of the lap the SC eventually came in.

[Greig]

Seems like both theories are plausible.

But could it be that RB were caught out with regards to webber and instead of doing what Ferrari did, bring both cars in at the same time, they let one stay out.. and they let mark do this, cause IF instead of doing 40 odd laps on his soft rubber, he had to come in much earlier due to degradation or whatever, they he would have lost out to vettel, nando and prbly even massa. They let webber take the risk instead of vettel, but it worked out the other way round as those tyres were ruddy good.

Vettel still would have won without the drive though :-) Webber was left out to jump Alonso not Vettel :-)

[Stormsearcher]

Vettel still would have won without the drive though :-) Webber was left out to jump Alonso not Vettel :-)

ya i agree. Thats wat am saying, they didnt know of the drive thru coming. So the strategy was perfectly suited for vettel. So there is no question of webber being favoured here.. if at all.. it was vettel who was favoured. MW may or may not have jumped alonso.. depending on when he would pit eventually. Dont think even they expected the option tyres to do such a stellar job.

[nikhil4356]

Thats where Redbull lost the plot. They are not supporting webber over vettle. Its just to snatch a Redbull 1-2 they asked vettle to slow Alonso enough ( 2 sec) knowing vettle will undoubtly take lead from webber after pitstop. In post race interview he mentioned sleeping which I felt was his way of to expressing anger slightly exaggerated. Had vettle lost due to his own accord he would have apologised to the team.( Remember Australia 2009 crash with kubica). Today he indirectly expressed his displeasure againts teams decisions.

For the sake of debate lets accept vettle was sleeping. Then horner would have immediately radioed vettel to increase the pace and built a gap of 11-12 sec to Alonso which would have enabled vettle to keep his position after serving penalty.( hamilton valencia)

Well thats not the case so as long as redbull comits mistakes and Ferrari gains I am Happy. Its just that the above circumstances raise doubts in my mind of team orders.

[Greig]

He drove away cos he'd done what was asked of him (which was to back the field up before the SC came in), and after that he just chased Webber. My questions would be "why back up that much of his own valition?" and "why get so heated about cocking it up if he did do it of his own valition?" and also, "why was his race engineer basically telling him to keep quiet on the in lap?"

Ok and what did he achieve by holding the field up? Did you listen to what he said at all? Why was he backing the field up at the start of the SC in lap? He did not understand why he got a penalty, we heard him questioning the FIA guy on the way to the podium as to why he got it....why do you think Red Bull can hide what drivers are being told when the radio is open to the FIA?

[Greig]

For the sake of debate lets accept vettle was sleeping. Then horner would have immediately radioed vettel to increase the pace and built a gap of 11-12 sec to Alonso which would have enabled vettle to keep his position after serving penalty.( hamilton valencia)

Again, you miss the fact he had lost radio contact with the team under the SC :-) And he was told to try and push via Horner when he was given the investigation, not to stay ahead of Alonso but to stay ahead of Massa....

[nikhil4356]

Again, you miss the fact he had lost radio contact with the team under the SC :-) And he was told to try and push via Horner when he was given the investigation, not to stay ahead of Alonso but to stay ahead of Massa....

That was 6-7 laps after the restart. So if vettle had comitted mistake horner should or would have been informed by vettels engineer immediately which horner would have relaid to vettle. Its only after the stewards intervened that horner informed. So we can either conclude that enther Redbull gambled and lost or else unlike vettle entire pitwall was sleeping and only when stewards intervened did Redbull took the notice of Vettels mistake
and acted accordingly.

[Greig]

That was 6-7 laps after the restart. So if vettle had comitted mistake horner should or would have been informed by vettels engineer immediately which horner would have relaid to vettle. Its only after the stewards intervened that horner informed. So we can either conclude that enther Redbull gambled and lost or else unlike vettle entire pitwall was sleeping and only when stewards intervened did Redbull took the notice of Vettels mistake
and acted accordingly.

They had lost radio contact? what part of that is hard to understand?


At the re-start I was sleeping. I was probably relying too much on the radio but somewhere in the first stint I Iost the radio connection and I didn’t hear anything. I saw the safety car boards and was waiting for instruction when the safety car would come in. I didn’t see the lights. Also Mark, usually the leader when he does the re-start, he tries to drop back and then dictates the pace. Mark was very close and I was warming up my car. I was sure we had another lap, so I didn’t really understand. Then I saw Mark and the safety car at the second last corner, quite a big gap to myself. I noticed the safety car going into pits, so that must be the re-start and I was caught out, so I lost a lot of momentum and lost a lot in the first couple of laps which was not the intention. Then I got the drive-through. But during the race I did not understand.


Q: (Joe Saward - Grand Prix Special) Sebastian, can you tell us exactly when you lost the radio and how you knew when to pit?

SV: I don’t know when I lost the radio. Obviously I cannot say the (exact) lap because you’re not in contact with your team on every lap, and then from race control I got the message on the start/finish straight. It’s not so easy to see it because it’s just coming out of the last corner. I think I was just right, so probably a bit lucky that I didn’t miss it, and didn’t do too many laps.

For the safety car? I was obviously ten seconds clear of the rest of the field, and I was just exiting turn 13 and there is a light, a board on the right hand side with SC that just popped out, and I was already on the way to approach the last corner and then I saw it at the last second and decided to slow because I knew that within half a second, I knew what could be the consequence if I had to stay out. In the end, we had the pace advantage, so yes, it might have been the smarter thing to do, looking back, but you don’t know at that stage, so I cut the entrance a bit which was last minute and came into the pit, so it was fine.

[2010hazzah]

No team orders there IMO. Just a good old fashioned team stuff-up heh heh heh :doh

[JRX164]

Well, anyway. I really liked this photo and I hope to see more of those:lol

http://photos.gpupdate.net/large/160335.jpg

[Hornet]

If anything, by not pitting Webber under the safetycar, isn't that an example of how they were favouring Vettle and trying to protect his race lead from the potential of a charging Webber?........


IMO they actually saw an opportunity or took a risk few other team would take.

Its normal that the driver at the front gets to pit first in situation like this. Had they brought Mark in as well, its all over for Mark. Given their pace, they probably knew that its more beneficial to let Mark stay out and pull open a gap, and then pit and jump Alonso. The only gamble they took is probably how long the tires will last. They would have gotten a 1-2 finish had Vettel not messed up