Ferrari summoned to WMSC 'team orders' hearing 4 days before Italian GP!

[steelstallions]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/ferrari-summoned-for-team-orders-trial-2042338.html


Ferrari are to go before the World Motor Sport Council just four days prior to their home grand prix next month as they look to avoid further punishment over the recent "team orders" furore.

Motorsport's world governing body, the FIA, has confirmed Ferrari will face a disciplinary hearing in Paris on 8 September, with the Italian Grand Prix the following Sunday. However, due to an obvious conflict of interest, FIA president and former Ferrari team principal Jean Todt will not stand as chair, the position falling to Nick Craw, the FIA deputy president for sport.

The team was fined $100,000 (£65,000) by the stewards at the German Grand Prix last month, who declared Ferrari in breach of article 39.1 of the FIA 2010 sporting regulations that states "team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited". They were also charged with a breach of article 151c, relating to "any fraudulent conduct, or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motorsport generally". The stewards were forced to investigate after Felipe Massa slowed on lap 49 at Hockenheim to allow team-mate Fernando Alonso to pass him.

If the new tests on our front wing slow us down and this hearing imposes any points deduction, then any hope of this season being a winner will be severely hampered.
Why four days before our GP? Is this to give the Tifosi a downer on our GP?

[996 GT1 Lover]

I think heads will roll if any point deductions are given.

[LAROSA SpA]

Wouldn't want to be a McLaren fan at Monza :-D

[mad_ani]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/ferrari-summoned-for-team-orders-trial-2042338.html



If the new tests on our front wing slow us down and this hearing imposes any points deduction, then any hope of this season being a winner will be severely hampered.
Why four days before our GP? Is this to give the Tifosi a downer on our GP?


They had already decided to meet on Sept 10...and the Ferrari "team order" incident happened....so its been shifted to Sept 8 and it was gonna be held in Italy...so makes it convenient for all parties involved...
Any idea on the quantum of punishment??? If there is a points deduction, would it be for the team or the team and drivers...Previous instances have shown drivers have gotten immunity and the team is usually punished???



WORLD COUNCIL & PRIZE-GIVING

An Extraordinary Meeting of the World Motor Sport Council will take place on Friday 10 September 2010 in Como, Italy.

The FIA prize-giving ceremony will be held in Monaco during the annual week of FIA meetings. The FIA President once again confirmed that the opportunity to host the event is open to all the FIA’s membership throughout the world.

[Fiondella]

Yawn! nothing will happen. Instruction from hearing: Slap wrist, try and be more subtle when executing team orders. i.e. pull-in to pits, low fuel, try and fool the hoi polloi etc etc

[dfunk257]

I think if the FIA dont do anything the other teams will kick up a big stink, thats why i wreckon Ferrari Constructors points will be deducted from the Hockenheim result, but NOT the drivers. So i think we can definately 4get about the Constructors Championship if this is what happens. But lets c, u just never know

[Fiondella]

Doesn't even warrant a WMSC meeting and any further penalty would be absolutelty riduculous and set an unworkable precedent

[mad_ani]

“I am much quicker than Felipe” – how Alonso urged Ferrari to use team orders


New video of the German Grand Prix published by FOM reveals how Fernando Alonso urged Ferrari to order Felipe Massa to let him pass.

Alonso said to the team “I am much quicker than Felipe” and was told “we got your message”.

Because of the editing of the video it’s not clear how much time elapsed between that and the infamous coded instruction to Massa ordering him to let Alonso pass.

When Alonso tried to overtake Massa on lap 21 Rob Smedley told his driver, “he’s pretty close, he’s going to go, you’re going to have to defend.”

Massa was later advised, “you need to pick up the pace because Alonso is faster.” After the race Massa sounded thoroughly unimpressed when he told them, “so, what I can say? Congratulations to the team.”

Ferrari were handed a $100,000 fine for using “team orders that interfere with a race result” and “bringing the sport into disrepute”. The World Motor Sport Council will decide next month whether they will face further penalties.

This is not the first time material published by FOM online has shed new light on the discussions between teams and drivers during a race. After the Turkish Grand Prix FOM published a new portion of McLaren’s team radio showing Lewis Hamilton was advised Jenson Button would not overtake him, shortly before Button did.

[FFFerrari]

I can see three outcomes for the meeting:

1) Nothing happens or we get a slap on the wrist (in addition to the fine already gotten after the GP)
2) They deduct the earned WCC points from the German GP
3) They DQ Fernando from the German GP results because it seems with that knowledge we know have that he gave the signal for the team to act as they did

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

“I am much quicker than Felipe” – how Alonso urged Ferrari to use team orders

i don't think they can do much with the above added into the mix....(mad_ani) coment seems they both were racing FA but alonso was faster ;-) lol

[Tiz]

They won't have a lot of time, it's the same day as MS is summoned to appear for his misdemeanour.!

[Hermann]

Just give it a bit more time and they will find enough to blame it all on Fernando. Nothing new here :lou

[ferrari4life]

I would like to see Ferrari withdraw from the rest of the season if that were to happen

[Paulpg87]

Wouldn't want to be a McLaren fan at Monza :-D

last year, after i entered the gp without paying (and almost killing my self climbing some walls at Ascari), i saw a group of tifosi, in the "jungle" around the track, that were kicking a fan of hamilton.. off course i did nothing to stop them.. i can't even call the police cause i was without ticket like 50% of the people (italians) there. :)

[Hornet]

Can the WMSC take actions that directly interferes with a championship like disqualifying a result?

[FFFerrari]

Yes. M.Schumacher was disqualified in 97 from the whole WDC after the incident in Jerez. They can dish out about any punishment they see fit and certainly anything that effects WDC and WCC.

[mandzipop]

Ferrari have made it quite clear that although it was not an instruction it was a coded hint and have said everyone does it. So that might go in their favour as others have said that it happens up and down the pitlane. The biggest mistake was making it look obvious. But as it is now known to the world that it happens quite a lot, then the main punishment will be bringing the sport into disrepute for being blindingly obvious. It was a call that was pretty obviously going to happen. So I think the result will be an increase in the fine, and the rules to be changed. Apparently it is not the first time that Massa has been told that, but this was the first occasion that he conceded the position. That would be sufficient to defend the team orders issue. However, the way Ferrari handled it afterwards was pretty poor. That is why I think that there will be an increase in the fine and not much else. The FIA are going to be forced into making the rules clearer and from what the response is from the rest of the teams they do want more clarity on the issue. If FOTA go along with this then the WMSC are going to look a bit stupid if they dock points.

[steelstallions]

last year, after i entered the gp without paying (and almost killing my self climbing some walls at Ascari), i saw a group of tifosi, in the "jungle" around the track, that were kicking a fan of hamilton.. off course i did nothing to stop them.. i can't even call the police cause i was without ticket like 50% of the people (italians) there. :)

There were about 5 of them kicking the fan, when asked if I would do anything, I said five were enough...............gets his coat and leaves the forum :-G

[Katu]

“I am much quicker than Felipe” – how Alonso urged Ferrari to use team orders

heared drivers said that before many times. had he said after that - 'move over the mass' or 'do something', well that would have been urging

[2010hazzah]

“I am much quicker than Felipe” – how Alonso urged Ferrari to use team orders

I am no expert in the English language but come-on, I don't see any urging in this statement. He's just stating a fact. If they remove points from him then WMSC is a circus full of clowns IMO.

[mad_ani]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh2tb6OaW80

SD's reaction after the race...he does look calm and relaxed and more happy to celebrate the 1-2 finish:-D

AFAIK, Ferrari management has been called to the hearing...and not the drivers..any news on this??

Would Massa be called in to explain why he slowed down...something he has refused to answer at the PC of German Gp...

IMO, Ferrari are a far greater than to win races by implementing team orders..Yes, it has been implemented in the past and our drivers have won the WDC's becoz if it...but as a team with so much passion to win and been in F1 for so long...should we really need team orders?? do we fear that our drivers with close to 2 decade of experience between them take out each other??? Enzo cared so much about racing and competing....and as a fan of F1 and Ferrari, why not let events happen naturally...I dont want to see Ferrari being dragged to WMSC in any situation...

[Greig]

We have had team orders even with Enzo running the team, yes we are greater than that, go watch Imola 82....

[mad_ani]

We have had team orders even with Enzo running the team, yes we are greater than that, go watch Imola 82....

Yes, that incident was attributed as causing the death of Giles by pushing him harder...

Well, we can do without it (team orders), and Ferrari are bigger than satisfying just a few drivers and sponsors. Ferrari has proved many times that it can win the WCC without winning the WDC..:-)

[Greig]

Ah so you attach the team order to a sponsor, surprising :-) oh wait no not really.....you mean like 1999 when MS was moving over for Eddie, to help him win the WDC, why did Massa move for Kimi in Brazil, we had won the WCC no need for team orders was there we are greater than that right.......

[mad_ani]

Why not go for the WDC, once we have the WCC...:-D

and in both cases, we had a shot at the WDC and they were the last or the penultimate races of the season...:-)

[Greig]

Why not go for the WDC, once we have the WCC...:-D

and in both cases, we had a shot at the WDC and they were the last or the penultimate races of the season...:-)

Makes no difference in the slightest to what you are claiming.....

[aroutis]

Nothing at all is going to happen, or if it does it'll probably get the fine from 100,000 to a mil like last time and the rules will be revised.

As for the video, big deal, so Fernando says he's quicker and Ferrari acknowledges . And?

There's nothing there to even indicate that there is manipulation of the result , only thing there is is the driver that says he's faster; not the first time and for sure not the last.

[aroutis]

mad_ani, the teams are entitled to the team orders, it's very simple really; they put the money and if they need to ask their drivers for certain things , they should be entitled to. As long as they don't ask them to crash into other drivers or between them of course that is, if they want to -for example- keep positions or change places between them, they should be allowed to do that.

It's how it's been since the beginning of time, and surely that won't change now.

Heck, in the old days the #1 driver would take #2's car should his car fail..

[Anni]

In my opinion the anti-teamorder rule should be disposed, but not because team-orders are a good thing, but because what´s the use of a rule everyone is braking. As long as they can´t find a way to actually fight teamorders the rule doesn´t make sence at all and the team could make it obvious so at least we would know when they twit us!

If it was possible I would ban teamorders completely out of F1. In my opinion it´s like doping in other sports. It´s something that alters the results. No driver should become worldchampion with points that aren´t his points at all. I know there is no way to prevent teamorders, they will be always there, I just wish they weren´t.

[REDARMYSOJA]

Yes, that incident was attributed as causing the death of Giles by pushing him harder...


Which is total BS. Gilles was driving that day like he always drove, flat out. His death was caused by Jochen Mass dragging around the track and the car not being built safely, as evidenced by Pironi also nearly getting killed in it.

[mad_ani]

mad_ani, the teams are entitled to the team orders, it's very simple really; they put the money and if they need to ask their drivers for certain things , they should be entitled to. As long as they don't ask them to crash into other drivers or between them of course that is, if they want to -for example- keep positions or change places between them, they should be allowed to do that.

It's how it's been since the beginning of time, and surely that won't change now.

Heck, in the old days the #1 driver would take #2's car should his car fail..

Agree that team orders have been used in the past...to more extreme measures as well...But where do we draw a line between racing and team orders??

As a kid, I switched on Tv's every Sunday afternoon to watch good overtakings and racing between cars...and I still want to see the same now, even if its between team mates...

[Hermann]

Agree that team orders have been used in the past...to more extreme measures as well...But where do we draw a line between racing and team orders??

As a kid, I switched on Tv's every Sunday afternoon to watch good overtakings and racing between cars...and I still want to see the same now, even if its between team mates...


I don't know how old you are but i suppose F1 has changed a lot since you were a kid. When i was a kid, i saw too many fatal accidents on race tracks, can't say i want those times back, though the racing was better. But they had their 'scandals' as well.

I would say the question is more where do we draw the line between 'team orders' and 'team strategy'. Ferrari didn't 'order' the switch, at least i have not seen any team radio reporting Ferrari telling Massa to 'move over'. Its more that they 'reminded' him of something they had been discussing before the race.

It was not a clear team- order that way, it became a question of interpretation. If they had an agreement with the drivers, its team strategy, not order. And you can't prohibit team strategies, there are teams racing each other as well as drivers racing each other.

When Todt said on the radio 'let Michael pass for the championship' it was a very clear team order indeed, but if you have an agreement for the race beforehand and let one driver know in the race 'xy is faster than you' meaning 'remember what we talked about, if he is faster than you, find a place to let him pass without defending too hard' its in a grey area.

Ferrari might argue that way in the WMSC meeting, we will have to wait and see the outcome.

[Anni]

When Todt said on the radio 'let Michael pass for the championship' it was a very clear team order indeed, but if you have an agreement for the race beforehand and let one driver know in the race 'xy is faster than you' meaning 'remember what we talked about, if he is faster than you, find a place to let him pass without defending too hard' its in a grey area.


I keep wondering what they talked about before the race. Why did Smedley say something like "Keep concentrated and we will win" in the beginning if it was clear, Massa won´t be allowed to win? Why did Massa look happy before the race and hurt after the race? If he had known he would have to let Alonso pass, wouldn´t he have been sad or angry before the race, too, and not so much hurt after the race, because he had already known?
Domenicali made it clear he and Montezemolo decided before the race, but did Massa know? Would it make sence, to tell a driver before a race he won´t be allowed to win. This won´t be the best for the motivation.

[Hermann]

I keep wondering what they talked about before the race. Why did Smedley say something like "Keep concentrated and we will win" in the beginning if it was clear, Massa won´t be allowed to win? Why did Massa look happy before the race and hurt after the race? If he had known he would have to let Alonso pass, wouldn´t he have been sad or angry before the race, too, and not so much hurt after the race, because he had already known?
Domenicali made it clear he and Montezemolo decided before the race, but did Massa know? Would it make sence, to tell a driver before a race he won´t be allowed to win. This won´t be the best for the motivation.

No, for sure that was not the agreement that he was 'not allowed to win'. But i'm sure there was some kind of agreement about the drivers racing each other, something like 'whoever is in front should be xx seconds faster or able to keep a certain distance'. Which might have led to Fernando's radio message to let the team know that under normal circumstances, he could overtake Felipe. And he tried several times but even in a faster car, as we know, its hard to overtake nowadays when the driver in front is defending hard. Just think of Silverstone, Fernando was a lot faster than Kubica, but even then Kubica tried to prevent that by forcing Fernando off track and we know how that ended.

Massa had no intention to let Fernando by obviously, though he was indeed faster and though he knew that actually, he should not fight him too hard. And in my 'interpretation' this led to the 'famous' radio call from Smedley.

Thats why i'm saying its a grey area. Starting as a team strategy and ending, in a way, as an order. In the end maybe Massa was reminded of who is paying his salary.

Either way, i'm curious to see how the WMSC is going to sort that out.

[mad_ani]

I don't know how old you are but i suppose F1 has changed a lot since you were a kid. When i was a kid, i saw too many fatal accidents on race tracks, can't say i want those times back, though the racing was better. But they had their 'scandals' as well.

I would say the question is more where do we draw the line between 'team orders' and 'team strategy'. Ferrari didn't 'order' the switch, at least i have not seen any team radio reporting Ferrari telling Massa to 'move over'. Its more that they 'reminded' him of something they had been discussing before the race.

It was not a clear team- order that way, it became a question of interpretation. If they had an agreement with the drivers, its team strategy, not order. And you can't prohibit team strategies, there are teams racing each other as well as drivers racing each other.

When Todt said on the radio 'let Michael pass for the championship' it was a very clear team order indeed, but if you have an agreement for the race beforehand and let one driver know in the race 'xy is faster than you' meaning 'remember what we talked about, if he is faster than you, find a place to let him pass without defending too hard' its in a grey area.

Ferrari might argue that way in the WMSC meeting, we will have to wait and see the outcome.

Well if it was a strategy and pre discussed, why did Massa have to be reminded three times??Why did he not be happy on the podium??it was his first podium in many events...
Yes, there was no definative words to say "move over"...but how would you explain the position swap??

Now I dont want WMSC to call on Massa (or Alonso....) as to why Massa slowed down suddenly...remember they have all the telemetry...and suddenly slowing down on the track is no means safe unless there is a genuine problem with the car....

If Massa does concede it was the case of team order.(coded or not)..then Ferrari face punishment...
and this could hurt us in WCC....and I dont want to see Ferrari being stripped of point or fined....

or even be called to WMSC....

[Hermann]

Well if it was a strategy and pre discussed, why did Massa have to be reminded three times??Why did he not be happy on the podium??it was his first podium in many events...
Yes, there was no definative words to say "move over"...but how would you explain the position swap??

Now I dont want WMSC to call on Massa (or Alonso....) as to why Massa slowed down suddenly...remember they have all the telemetry...and suddenly slowing down on the track is no means safe unless there is a genuine problem with the car....

If Massa does concede it was the case of team order.(coded or not)..then Ferrari face punishment...
and this could hurt us in WCC....and I dont want to see Ferrari being stripped of point or fined....

or even be called to WMSC....

Me neither, of course. I would want them to find an 'elegant' way to solve that.

Yes, why did Massa obviously had to be 'reminded' (if that is what happened) indeed? Good question.

He definitely knew what it meant when Smedley told him, very slow, very accentuated, 'Fernando- is- faster- than- you!' adding an exclamation mark at the end. And then, he reacted. Could not have done it more obviously. All in all, this was what led to the penalty.

I'm just speculating here, of course. We don't know for sure if there was such an ageement beforehand or not.

Obviously i have never been payed millions but i did have situations when my boss told me to do something in the future and i said 'yes yes of course' but thought 'you can stick that where the sun doesn't shine'. There is a certain psychological element in the whole incident. The drivers are humans, not robots.

The 'Fernando is faster than you' was a code. To understand a code, you have to know its a code. And to know its a code, its something you have been informed about before the situation arises. I still say its a grey area; a mixture between strategy and order. The stewards interpreted it as an order; Ferrari says it wasn't, it was strategy.

We can discuss this from out points of view but what counts in the end is the FIA's point of view.

[mad_ani]

internally it may have been a strategy by Ferrari to get alonso into the WDC fight...but the race stewards and FIA saw it as an order...i dont think they are concerned who leads the championship etc..
and Ferrari did not appeal the fine imposed on them...althogh SD was 100% sure that it was not a team order...

[Hermann]

internally it may have been a strategy by Ferrari to get alonso into the WDC fight...but the race stewards and FIA saw it as an order...i dont think they are concerned who leads the championship etc..
and Ferrari did not appeal the fine imposed on them...althogh SD was 100% sure that it was not a team order...


That is how i see it as well. They saw this as an order. Probably with being inside that 'grey area', Ferrari chose not to appeal because it was already decided to be fowarded to the WMSC. So to appeal the fine would not make much sense, they might have thought of rather waiting for the WMSC meeting to get it sorted out one or the other way.

When you are operating in a grey area very small things can decide the scales to go down on one or the other side. It could be that for the stewards, Massa's 'not immediate reaction' triggered that scale to go into the 'team order' direction. Like 'he didn't want to follow the team strategy so they somehow had to give him an order'. For the stewards, a good reason to apply a fine and for sorting this out definitely, forward it to the WMSC. Because the stewards do not decide if their 'interpretation' had been correct. They have to leave this to the next higher sporting authority.

[Anni]

The 'Fernando is faster than you' was a code. To understand a code, you have to know its a code. And to know its a code, its something you have been informed about before the situation arises. I still say its a grey area; a mixture between strategy and order. The stewards interpreted it as an order; Ferrari says it wasn't, it was strategy.

The whole world understood what Rob Smedley was saying! So, where is the code? If 'Fernando is faster than you' was a code they had talked about before, why did Massa obey the fourth time, if he refused the previous three codes? The fourth time was very explicit, but what did that change for Massa? He couldn´t have talked himself out for refusing by saying ´I didn´t know you wanted to tell me to move over´if it was a code.

[justjesper]

The rules say Team orders are not allowed. We can discuss if we like team orders or not. Ferrari blew it as they didn't do it in a smart way.
There has been a lot of incidents where they did it smarter. Like when Kimi won in Brazil.

The problem is at the top. Massa did what they asked him too. It was the way they announced it to him and I agree that there explanation doesn't hold water.
Why was Vettel more dangerous to Alonso then he was to Massa.
Is Massa a better defensive driver ?

[NJB13]

Why was Vettel more dangerous to Alonso then he was to Massa.
Is Massa a better defensive driver ?

Alonso could maintain a gap on Vettel - he could lap at least as fast as him. Massa was holding Alonso up and, therefore, allowing Vettel to catch them both.

[justjesper]

Alonso could maintain a gap on Vettel - he could lap at least as fast as him. Massa was holding Alonso up and, therefore, allowing Vettel to catch them both.

Well My point is going back to what Ferrari said. To make most points to the team, and if Massa was much slower then Vettel, well then Vettle would get past massa. Giving us a 1 - 3.
That did not happen.
I'm affright to say this but the whole thing has been handled in the worst way possible from Ferrari.

[mad_ani]

Well My point is going back to what Ferrari said. To make most points to the team, and if Massa was much slower then Vettel, well then Vettle would get past massa. Giving us a 1 - 3.
That did not happen.
I'm affright to say this but the whole thing has been handled in the worst way possible from Ferrari.

but Alonso knew that he would be stuck behind Massa in that situation (Australia, China) and well he did put himself ahead of the team IMO...he could have fended off Vettel and securea a 1-2 for the team with Massa...instead he did comment by saying it was ridiculous causing a chain of events which finally led to the swap..

I find it stange inspite of what Luca di M had said in Nov 2009


“They will drive for Ferrari and not for themselves, otherwise there are plenty of other teams out there. Massa is motivated, hungry and ready. Alonso is the best driver in the world, along with Massa.”

[Julie B]

Ferrari want WDC so Luca's words are still true :-)

[Hermann]

but Alonso knew that he would be stuck behind Massa in that situation (Australia, China) and well he did put himself ahead of the team IMO...he could have fended off Vettel and securea a 1-2 for the team with Massa...instead he did comment by saying it was ridiculous causing a chain of events which finally led to the swap..

I find it stange inspite of what Luca di M had said in Nov 2009


Fernando had a lot more points already in german GP, and he was faster, why should he has been the one to defend againts Vettel to help Massa? He did that before, he defended Massa against Hamilton and Vettel, i don't think the team expected the better driver to do that for the rest of the season. Maybe you read too much in forums where Fernando is looked at as the devil in persona and responsible for every single poop in China.

I'm sure if the team had asked Fernando to do that, he would have, but i'm also still sure there was an agreement before the race about speed/gap between the drivers.

[justjesper]

It's interesting that even we are split on this matter, no wonder that Ferrari is called in front of the FIA to explain the matter.

I think Ferrari need to look at them selfs and work on there leadership. The whole thing could had been avoided by good leadership.
a bit embarrassing actually

[Fiondella]

It's interesting that even we are split on this matter, no wonder that Ferrari is called in front of the FIA to explain the matter.

I think Ferrari need to look at them selfs and work on there leadership. The whole thing could had been avoided by good leadership.
a bit embarrassing actually

So what would you have done? At least it wasn't a blatant cover up. Hardly embarrassing, its called a team order and probably called because the team didn't think that the scenario of Massa leading Alonso was likely to happen. So would you tell Luca D to do one? :-)

[Tifosi]

So what would you have done? At least it wasn't a blatant cover up. Hardly embarrassing, its called a team order and probably called because the team didn't think that the scenario of Massa leading Alonso was likely to happen. So would you tell Luca D to do one? :-)

What is a more blatant cover-up than implementing a team order blatantly and then blatantly lying about it in front of the media?

[Fiondella]

What is a more blatant cover-up than implementing a team order blatantly and then blatantly lying about it in front of the media?

Yeah right with Domenicali telling eddie JawDrop, tongue routed firmly in his cheek, "Eddie 1 and 2 is mine" So what exactly did he lie about? Alonso was faster than Massa. He showed that in two ocassions during the race where he pulled back and then caught up. So presumably it will be sad occasion for you if Alonso lifts the WDC, which may just be down to the decision taken in Germany. IMO the Ham But order in Turkey was more blatant because of the insult to conoscenti intelligence

[ferrari4life]

maybe it was as simple as it sounds.. alonso was faster and was going to have a crack at massa. ferrari wanted to avoid a crash and they informed Massa to that effect..

[Tifosi]

Yeah right with Domenicali telling eddie JawDrop, tongue routed firmly in his cheek, "Eddie 1 and 2 is mine" So what exactly did he lie about? Alonso was faster than Massa. He showed that in two ocassions during the race where he pulled back and then caught up. So presumably it will be sad occasion for you if Alonso lifts the WDC, which may just be down to the decision taken in Germany. IMO the Ham But order in Turkey was more blatant because of the insult to conoscenti intelligence

You presume wrong. Thanks for that though :thumb

They lied about it not being team orders obviously - as you yourself admit.

Also, the point was that we were blatant, not about anything else to do with Team Orders or their prevailance in F1 (a subject already agreed and done to death!)

[Anni]

Stefano Domenicali said after the race there was no team order, didn´t he? That was definitly not the truth, but I am not sure if it was the entire untruth. I think it´s a question of definition.
order implies there is a punishment for disobeying, it means the one receiving the order has not the least bit chance to refuse. In this case it would mean Massa obeyed because he knew if he didn´t, he would loose his job.
Has it been an order, or was it maybe an team demand?
Demand would mean there is a chance to refuse without grave punishment. In this case it would mean Massa heard the team demand and decided to give in to it against his will. He would have known if he refused he would do no good to his position in the team, but there would be no consequences for refusing.

So, was it team order or team demand? If it was team demand Stefano Domenicali did not really lie, but he didn´t tell the truth either.
I absolutly don´t want to defend him. I hate what Ferrari did and still cannot forgive them for doing it, but if I want to keep on beeing a Ferrari fan I have to believe Felipe had a choice. If he didn´t it would mean Ferrari is a dictatorship and I couldn´t cheer for them anymore.
I like to think Felipe had a choice (not really a choice, but he didn´t do it out of fear) and he was a teamplayer and indeed magnanimous! This is the only way I can still be Ferrari fan.

[Tifoso]

It was a Team Suggestion :lou

[justjesper]

It was a Team Suggestion :lou

A Suggestion

:lol it's getting better and better :lol

Suggestion is the psychological process by which one person guides the thoughts, feelings, or behaviour of another.

[Fiondella]

You presume wrong. Thanks for that though :thumb

They lied about it not being team orders obviously - as you yourself admit.

Also, the point was that we were blatant, not about anything else to do with Team Orders or their prevailance in F1 (a subject already agreed and done to death!)

So if Nando wins the WDC by a small margin will you be happy and concede (no yield :-D) that the decision in Germany was the right call? Or will you still be bitter at the thought of the balance being tilted because of the decision taken in Germany?

[Tifosi]

So if Nando wins the WDC by a small margin will you be happy and concede (no yield :-D) that the decision in Germany was the right call? Or will you still be bitter at the thought of the balance being tilted because of the decision taken in Germany?

Why you are even asking me that question is beyond me, given my reply to you that you "presumed wrong" and also that it wasn't even part of the point being discussed - which was about blatancy and the embarassment felt by certain posters by the unconvincing way in which we carried out our team orders and then lied about it.

You seem to want to turn it into a "means justifies the ends" debate about team orders when people were actually discussing the manner in which they were undertaken by our team.

I get that you personally dont have a problem with how we did it but why do you think that we should all feel the same? The number of points we have or haven't got at the end of the season has nothing to do with the discussion about how we implemented and attempted to cover our team orders in that race, which is where i joined the thread.

[Stormsearcher]

Why was Vettel more dangerous to Alonso then he was to Massa.
Is Massa a better defensive driver ?

Lol.. are u suggesting that everytime Massa is slower than alonso, FA has to tuck in behind him and protect his rear just because he is a better defensive driver?
What if vettel caught them both and in the melee that followed over an overtaking move, both our drivers take each other out and vettel won? Will make the team look like a bunch of fools. No?

[Agron]

Lol.. are u suggesting that everytime Massa is slower than alonso, FA has to tuck in behind him and protect his rear just because he is a better defensive driver?
What if vettel caught them both and in the melee that followed over an overtaking move, both our drivers take each other out and vettel won? Will make the team look like a bunch of fools. No?I think that it's got more to do with the fact that some feel it's perfectly ok for their drivers (Hamilton, Schumi, Raikkonen, Massa, ...) to benefit from team orders, but when it's the most hated combination of team & driver (Ferrari&Fernando), that's where the problems start.
For haters and people with an agenda, first comes "who", and then they start to consider the "what".

[Anni]

I think that it's got more to do with the fact that some feel it's perfectly ok for their drivers (Hamilton, Schumi, Raikkonen, Massa, ...) to benefit from team orders, but when it's the most hated combination of team & driver (Ferrari&Fernando), that's where the problems start.
For haters and people with an agenda, first comes "who", and then they start to consider the "what".


The "who" doesn´t matter here, it´s about the circumstances! This win would have been something very special for Massa. The team knew that and yet he was denied that win. Ferrari always claims to be a family. They didn´t behave like that at Hockenheim.
Many people may say it is an "The end justfies the means" situation, but in my opinion Ferrari should be greater than that!

[mad_ani]

I think that it's got more to do with the fact that some feel it's perfectly ok for their drivers (Hamilton, Schumi, Raikkonen, Massa, ...) to benefit from team orders, but when it's the most hated combination of team & driver (Ferrari&Fernando), that's where the problems start.
For haters and people with an agenda, first comes "who", and then they start to consider the "what".

I hope you do realize that Ferrari were reprimanded for Austria 2003....So it was not ok then... Many others including Massa and Kimi have benefited (mainly when the other was out of contention) from team orders

We all know who benefited from a team order at Singapore 2008...maybe that skips your mind...That team were also punished for their actions...

Ferrari made it obvious through radio communications and it brought the attention of stewards for which they have been called to WMSC...nothing about haters or a hated team

[aroutis]

Agree that team orders have been used in the past...to more extreme measures as well...But where do we draw a line between racing and team orders??

As a kid, I switched on Tv's every Sunday afternoon to watch good overtakings and racing between cars...and I still want to see the same now, even if its between team mates...

To me team orders are part of the sport called F1, so by watching F1 you have to realize this.

The overtaking -if lucky- is one thing you will get to see, however no sound team will let their drivers get it on to the point of destruction, in my mind that's just amateurish way of running a team.

The team wishes to get maximum points for WCC and WDC and that is not gonna happen by letting drivers run their hearts out between one another, risking incidents that we've seen oh so many times in the past.

[Fiondella]

Why you are even asking me that question is beyond me, given my reply to you that you "presumed wrong" and also that it wasn't even part of the point being discussed - which was about blatancy and the embarassment felt by certain posters by the unconvincing way in which we carried out our team orders and then lied about it.

You seem to want to turn it into a "means justifies the ends" debate about team orders when people were actually discussing the manner in which they were undertaken by our team.

I get that you personally dont have a problem with how we did it but why do you think that we should all feel the same? The number of points we have or haven't got at the end of the season has nothing to do with the discussion about how we implemented and attempted to cover our team orders in that race, which is where i joined the thread.

You keep talking about lies, cover-ups and embarrassment, perhaps you should explain how you would have dealt with the situation in the heat of the moment? Maybe you would have done nothing and let the pair race ala Redbull or staged it spectacularly for full effect? Frankly it was storm in a team cup which the british media didn't help by having idiots like eddie with foot in mouth blowing things out of proportion. Nothing will happen at the hearing because the incident doesn't deserve any further punishment as you well know.

[aroutis]

I hope you do realize that Ferrari were reprimanded for Austria 2003....So it was not ok then... Many others including Massa and Kimi have benefited (mainly when the other was out of contention) from team orders

We all know who benefited from a team order at Singapore 2008...maybe that skips your mind...That team were also punished for their actions...

Ferrari made it obvious through radio communications and it brought the attention of stewards for which they have been called to WMSC...nothing about haters or a hated teamFerrari was PUNISHED for AUSTRIA 2002. And it was then that this ridiculous rule that everyone does not follow was written to the rule book because of the outcry, a stupid rule not well thought of, just because they thought with their wallets and not with their heads.

And it was not the drivers that benefitted, it was the TEAMS that decided who gets what (ergo team orders).

[Tifosi]

You keep talking about lies, cover-ups and embarrassment, perhaps you should explain how you would have dealt with the situation in the heat of the moment? Maybe you would have done nothing and let the pair race ala Redbull or staged it spectacularly for full effect? Frankly it was storm in a team cup which the british media didn't help by having idiots like eddie with foot in mouth blowing things out of proportion. Nothing will happen at the hearing because the incident doesn't deserve any further punishment as you well know.

Why do you think anyone gives a hoot about what EJ says. He's just trying to get people not to switch over their television sets after the race. Anyone can see that he's just a blether who changes his mind every 10 minutes. EJ and the Beeb have absolutely nothing to do with why Ferrari are up before WMSC so why suggest they would have anything to do with it?

Why are you now also asking me how I would have dealt with the situation in the heat of the moment? What has that got to do with it?

It was crystal clear to anybody watching that Ferrari were wholly unprepared for the eventuality of Massa being ahead of Alonso. As other teams have shown, it's actually not that difficult to instigate a well prepared team order without being investigated by the FIA (or giving Ferrari haters sticks to beat us with), or having to appear in front of the WMSC as a result. That's the point so why are you being so needlessly defensive of the way it was handled?

There's little point in bleating on about it anymore anyway, but to pretend that it was merely blown out of all proportion by the media isn't really facing the truth of the matter.

[Fiondella]

Why do you think anyone gives a hoot about what EJ says. He's just trying to get people not to switch over their television sets after the race. Anyone can see that he's just a blether who changes his mind every 10 minutes. EJ and the Beeb have absolutely nothing to do with why Ferrari are up before WMSC so why suggest they would have anything to do with it?

Why are you now also asking me how I would have dealt with the situation in the heat of the moment? What has that got to do with it?

It was crystal clear to anybody watching that Ferrari were wholly unprepared for the eventuality of Massa being ahead of Alonso. As other teams have shown, it's actually not that difficult to instigate a well prepared team order without being investigated by the FIA (or giving Ferrari haters sticks to beat us with), or having to appear in front of the WMSC as a result. That's the point so why are you being so needlessly defensive of the way it was handled?

There's little point in bleating on about it anymore anyway, but to pretend that it was merely blown out of all proportion by the media isn't really facing the truth of the matter.

Yes, the truth of the matter is that you don't mind lying as long as its done in right way. Since you're so embarrassed about the "cover-up" why not write to Luca D giving your valuable insight and try and make him see the truth of the matter?

[Tifosi]

Yes, the truth of the matter is that you don't mind lying as long as its done in right way. Since you're so embarrassed about the "cover-up" why not write to Luca D giving your valuable insight and try and make him see the truth of the matter?

When you have an opinion about something, do I tell you what you should do as a result of having it? I do wish you'd stop doing that. It's patronising and pointless dude. :-)

The point that you seem to miss is that Ferrari avoidably put themselves in a position in which they had no choice but to lie blatantly and they are up in front of the WMSC as a direct result of that. That's the truth of the matter. Why do you continue to ignore this point and yet continue to tell me what I think or what I mind or don't mind? It verges on an ad hominem and ignores the point. If you check the thread you'll find that it was in fact justjesper who mentioned feelings of embarrassment - not me!

Why the hell should I write to Luca D? Ferrari messed up (just like they did with the Alonso / Kubica pass) and there's nothing wrong with discussing an opinion on that (although it seems that some people think this should be disallowed).

[mad_ani]

Ferrari was PUNISHED for AUSTRIA 2002. And it was then that this ridiculous rule that everyone does not follow was written to the rule book because of the outcry, a stupid rule not well thought of, just because they thought with their wallets and not with their heads.

And it was not the drivers that benefitted, it was the TEAMS that decided who gets what (ergo team orders).


Well, is it fair for drivers who are victims of team orders?? they may have earned a particular position in a race...either by merit or by natural events that take place...and asking them to give it a driver and a competitor who does not deserve that place by merit is not fair..

Would it be fair to have asked Alonso to slow down and allow Massa to win in Bahrain???

[Fiondella]

When you have an opinion about something, do I tell you what you should do as a result of having it? I do wish you'd stop doing that. It's patronising and pointless dude. :-)

The point that you seem to miss is that Ferrari avoidably put themselves in a position in which they had no choice but to lie blatantly and they are up in front of the WMSC as a direct result of that. That's the truth of the matter. Why do you continue to ignore this point and yet continue to tell me what I think or what I mind or don't mind? It verges on an ad hominem and ignores the point. If you check the thread you'll find that it was in fact justjesper who mentioned feelings of embarrassment - not me!

Why the hell should I write to Luca D? Ferrari messed up (just like they did with the Alonso / Kubica pass) and there's nothing wrong with discussing an opinion on that (although it seems that some people think this should be disallowed).

Nevertheless, you clearly believe that the ferrari messed up because they lied ineffectually compared to other teams. Maybe your word for the day should be hypocrisy dude :-)

[aroutis]

Well, is it fair for drivers who are victims of team orders?? they may have earned a particular position in a race...either by merit or by natural events that take place...and asking them to give it a driver and a competitor who does not deserve that place by merit is not fair..

Would it be fair to have asked Alonso to slow down and allow Massa to win in Bahrain???
By no means I am trying to be sarcastic but since when exactly is F1 meant to be at any rate FAIR?

The more you try to pursue this, the more I understand you don't really realize what F1 is about :
It's ALL BOUT MONEY and the SUCCESS of the TEAM in terms of GOALS SET.

That' s ALL there is to it and there's nothing fair bout it when it comes down to drivers. If at any given point the team decides that it's for THEIR best interest to support ONE of their TWO drivers, that is going to happen, regardless what you, me, or the other driver thinks about it. And guess what; the other driver knows this the second he joins the team, as he knows he very well can be the driver he supports at another given time.

That is HOW F1 WORKS, worked and it will NOT stop working, no matter what "rules" are "imposed". If you don't believe me, check on how many team orders have been put in place before 2002 AND AFTER 2002.

[aroutis]

Yes, the truth of the matter is that you don't mind lying as long as its done in right way. Since you're so embarrassed about the "cover-up" why not write to Luca D giving your valuable insight and try and make him see the truth of the matter?I think that Luca D. has stated his opinion clearly, it's up to people to understand what he says.

[Agron]

Well, is it fair for drivers who are victims of team orders?? they may have earned a particular position in a race...either by merit or by natural events that take place...and asking them to give it a driver and a competitor who does not deserve that place by merit is not fair..

Would it be fair to have asked Alonso to slow down and allow Massa to win in Bahrain???Poor drivers, earning $15M or $18M, being considered heros, going out with supermodels and doing what they love the most, racing. With such sad lifes, to ask of them to do what is best for the team is truly outrageous.
Mind you, I think they are paid fairly because they aren't paid for what they do, but rather for the risks of failing the incredibly tough selection process to arrive in F1, but still all those people talking about drivers as if we had to feel sorry for them for something like this make me laugh.

Your example is retarded, what matters is the best for the team, if the team decide that one of their drivers has no real chances at the WDC, and the said team wants the WDC (as all do), it's obvious they will do what it takes to support the other driver's chances. If both are with a fair shot at the championship, it's better to keep both their chances intact, because a big accident, some mechanical failures or some mistakes and your first choice may be your downfall. Besides, there's no better publicity for your team than to have both your drivers as the main (or better yet, the only) contenders for the WDC.

[Silent Bob]

When you have an opinion about something, do I tell you what you should do as a result of having it? I do wish you'd stop doing that. It's patronising and pointless dude. :-)

The point that you seem to miss is that Ferrari avoidably put themselves in a position in which they had no choice but to lie blatantly and they are up in front of the WMSC as a direct result of that. That's the truth of the matter. Why do you continue to ignore this point and yet continue to tell me what I think or what I mind or don't mind? It verges on an ad hominem and ignores the point. If you check the thread you'll find that it was in fact justjesper who mentioned feelings of embarrassment - not me!

Why the hell should I write to Luca D? Ferrari messed up (just like they did with the Alonso / Kubica pass) and there's nothing wrong with discussing an opinion on that (although it seems that some people think this should be disallowed).

I think that what you are implying may not be what actually happened. You are saying that Ferrari put themselves in this situation by not using better code.. but if Massa failed to heed the 'code' 3 times before his engineer had to spell it out for him, then it wasn't Ferrari who put themselves in this mess but a selfish driver who didn't do what he was asked the first 3 times. Also, silly as it seems, Domenicalli is correct... no team orders were directly issued to Massa. He was not directly told to move over, but because of the way his engineer emphasized certain words.. team orders were implied. You are looking at what was said and coming to the conclusion that team orders were implied,, which is correct, everyone knows they were... but at no time did Ferrari ask Massa to move over for Alonso. And I think it's time to stop blaming Ferrari for this mess... if they asked Smedley to give Massa the code to move order and Massa refused.. what else could they do while both drivers were on the race track. Some have critised Domenicalli for getting Smedley to ask Massa to move.. but if Stefano had gotten on the radio.. wouldn't that have been even more obvious?

[Tifosi]

Nevertheless, you clearly believe that the ferrari messed up because they lied ineffectually compared to other teams. Maybe your word for the day should be hypocrisy dude :-)

Expain my hypocrisy dude. I'll bet you can't! :thumb

Same way that you don't actually address the points made in previous posts, you just change the subject or use the word "Nevertheless" to brush whole posts aside before making assumptive statements (that you don't go on to back up with logic or argument) that tell me what I believe or think. :Hmm

I await your reply with interest, hoping that you actually refer accurately to the points I made and also defining my hypocrisy clearly. :-)

[Tifosi]

I think that what you are implying may not be what actually happened. You are saying that Ferrari put themselves in this situation by not using better code.. but if Massa failed to heed the 'code' 3 times before his engineer had to spell it out for him, then it wasn't Ferrari who put themselves in this mess but a selfish driver who didn't do what he was asked the first 3 times. Also, silly as it seems, Domenicalli is correct... no team orders were directly issued to Massa. He was not directly told to move over, but because of the way his engineer emphasized certain words.. team orders were implied. You are looking at what was said and coming to the conclusion that team orders were implied,, which is correct, everyone knows they were... but at no time did Ferrari ask Massa to move over for Alonso. And I think it's time to stop blaming Ferrari for this mess... if they asked Smedley to give Massa the code to move order and Massa refused.. what else could they do while both drivers were on the race track. Some have critised Domenicalli for getting Smedley to ask Massa to move.. but if Stefano had gotten on the radio.. wouldn't that have been even more obvious?

I'm saying that Ferrari put themselves in this situation by the manner in which it was handled. It doesn't actually matter whether you personally blame Massa, Smedley, Stefano, Luca D or Fernando to be honest. The team is the team and it's how they work together that matters. Blame Massa for ignoring/failing to understand the code and Smedley for spelling it out to him or blame Ferrari For failing to manage their second driver's expectations and make a Team Order look like it shouldn't be punished by the authorities for blatancy.

Doesn't really matter at the end of the day :-) All I know is that we were as blatant as we were in 2002 and because of the circumstances in both races, it caused issues.

[Fiondella]

Expain my hypocrisy dude. I'll bet you can't! :thumb

Same way that you don't actually address the points made in previous posts, you just change the subject or use the word "Nevertheless" to brush whole posts aside before making assumptive statements (that you don't go on to back up with logic or argument) that tell me what I believe or think. :Hmm

I await your reply with interest, hoping that you actually refer accurately to the points I made and also defining my hypocrisy clearly. :-)

Actually its simple, you think that Ferrari messed up simply because they didn't embellish the call ala Macca style. My point is why should they? Yes Hypocrisy because that's what it seems like to me dude. I asked some valid questions that you refused to answer and then responded with rhetoric:


Why are you now also asking me how I would have dealt with the situation in the heat of the moment? What has that got to do with it?
The point that you seem to miss is that Ferrari avoidably put themselves in a position in which they had no choice but to lie blatantly and they are up in front of the WMSC as a direct result of that. That's the truth of the matter. Why do you continue to ignore this point and yet continue to tell me what I think or what I mind or don't mind?

Why the hell should I write to Luca D?

[NJB13]

Honestly I don't see how taking a permanent defensive line against every possible complaint someone wants to drum up against Ferrari is a sensible line for our team to take. Of course, if you want to take the anti-Ferrari view, you can put forward their logic, but, personally, I think its a huge mistake to think that you can stop these anti-Ferrari lines.
The issue at hand here is that somehow Ferrari's crime was that we were too "blatant". Well, that is just a gigantic croc. In 2008 Hami, post Germany, described Heiki as a great team man because he "moved over" when asked to let him pass. The radio message to HK specifically said Lewis is faster than you. Additionally Ron Dennis said the team has the right to set team orders. Nothing could be more blatant. Now, if we are going to get stuck into Ferrari for being blatant, then lets at least recognise that we were "far less blatant" than other teams have been in the recent past. And now lets set the correct agenda and discussion - Why do the stewards/race-director ignore McCheaters more blatant team orders and yet get all het-up when Ferrari are involved - the stewards/race-director really must be brought to task on this. I for one hope SD and LDM go into the meeting with all guns blazing and put these substandard stewards firmly in their sights, furthermore, I would love them to not settle for a slap on the wrist, but, to use this as an opportunity to make meaningful changes to the adjudication of rules at F1 events and to the standard of F1 officials.

[Silent Bob]

I'm saying that Ferrari put themselves in this situation by the manner in which it was handled. It doesn't actually matter whether you personally blame Massa, Smedley, Stefano, Luca D or Fernando to be honest. The team is the team and it's how they work together that matters. Blame Massa for ignoring/failing to understand the code and Smedley for spelling it out to him or blame Ferrari For failing to manage their second driver's expectations and make a Team Order look like it shouldn't be punished by the authorities for blatancy.

Doesn't really matter at the end of the day :-) All I know is that we were as blatant as we were in 2002 and because of the circumstances in both races, it caused issues.

And if a driver does not respond to a team order, what do you propose the team does. Or if an engineer takes it upon himself to embarass the team, what can the team do but damage limitation after the fact. Everyone is pointing at Ferrari for blatant team orders... yet I bet it wasn't management that asked Smedly to make their intentions so obvious. And we weren't really as blatant as in 2002, when Todt was yelling at Barrichello to slow down. At the end of the day it was Massa & Smedley that brought shame on Ferrari. Ferrari is paying for the consequences of their actions.

[Tifosi]

Actually its simple, you think that Ferrari messed up simply because they didn't embellish the call ala Macca style. My point is why should they? Yes Hypocrisy because that's what it seems like to me dude. I asked some valid questions that you refused to answer and then responded with rhetoric:

You can't explain the hypocrisy then? You think it's hypocrisy but you don't know why? Is that it?

Of course you are right. Why should Ferrari make breaking the rules look anything less than that? Who cares if we get chastised, fined and charged with bringing the sport into disrepute?

As regards you turning my own point against me - remind me of the questions (i can't see them) and i will gladly answer them if they were relevant. I assume that's also your way of saying that you refuse to do the same.

[Tifosi]

And if a driver does not respond to a team order, what do you propose the team does. Or if an engineer takes it upon himself to embarass the team, what can the team do but damage limitation after the fact. Everyone is pointing at Ferrari for blatant team orders... yet I bet it wasn't management that asked Smedly to make their intentions so obvious. And we weren't really as blatant as in 2002, when Todt was yelling at Barrichello to slow down. At the end of the day it was Massa & Smedley that brought shame on Ferrari. Ferrari is paying for the consequences of their actions.

like I say, if you want to blame elements of the team then fine. The fact is that it was managed badly (for whatever reason). That is my only point. Either the team didn't prep Massa's team properly for the eventuality or Massa/Smedley were uniquely unprofessional in that situation and actively went against that instruction (which doesn't make sense really). Either way, it was badly handled by Team Ferrari. It all depends where you draw the "team line" doesn't it?

[Fiondella]

You can't explain the hypocrisy then? You think it's hypocrisy but you don't know why? Is that it?

Of course you are right. Why should Ferrari make breaking the rules look anything less than that? Who cares if we get chastised, fined and charged with bringing the sport into disrepute?

As regards you turning my own point against me - remind me of the questions (i can't see them) and i will gladly answer them if they were relevant. I assume that's also your way of saying that you refuse to do the same.

hypocrisy or play acting call whatever you like, you have implied that they should have been much more deceptive in calling the decision. I call that hypocrisy.
Do you really believe that they will be charged for bringing the sport into disrepute? That's laughable. Of course you think my questions irrelevant else you would of answered them. Anyway what rule did they break? Technically they didn't break any rule. When was Massa asked to let Alonso past? The rule is unworkable and will be abolished IMHO

[justjesper]

Technically they didn't break any rule. When was Massa asked to let Alonso past? The rule is unworkable and will be abolished IMHO

:lol
Well I think you might be one of the few % that think so.
I think it was clear what happened. That said, we all know it happens and that there will always be team orders. But sadly we did not have the leadership to do it in a smart way.

[Fiondella]

:lol
Well I think you might be one of the few % that think so.
I think it was clear what happened. That said, we all know it happens and that there will always be team orders. But sadly we did not have the leadership to do it in a smart way.

Any you can do better of course:lol

[REDARMYSOJA]

Most have probably already seen this. It's a piece the BBC did on team orders before Hungary. If nothing else, it's worth watching to hear Eddie jordan make a liar out of himself, "I never used team orders", then he explains how he did.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEqHpzIifgY

[Anni]

But sadly we did not have the leadership to do it in a smart way

I don´t blame anyone for not doing it in a smart way back then. They are all only human and it was a difficult situation. What I don´t like is the behaviour afterwards. We had the lying discussion, but what is anoying me most is they still want us to believe everything is fine, the Ferrari-team is still a big family and Hockenheim is forgotten now. Do they really think we are so stupid to believe that?

I am also in a not F1 related forum, there is only one thread about F1 in the General discussions corner. Those people don´t know much about F1 but they all feel deceived by Ferrari because of all this happy-family-and-nothing-has-changed. This is what makes Ferrari noncredible.

[Tifosi]

hypocrisy or play acting call whatever you like, you have implied that they should have been much more deceptive in calling the decision. I call that hypocrisy.
Do you really believe that they will be charged for bringing the sport into disrepute? That's laughable. Of course you think my questions irrelevant else you would of answered them. Anyway what rule did they break? Technically they didn't break any rule. When was Massa asked to let Alonso past? The rule is unworkable and will be abolished IMHO

Hang on dude. Hypocrisy is pretending to have beliefs that you don't actually have - often highlighted by doing or saying the opposite of what you afirm to be your beliefs.

What is hypocritical about wishing Ferrari had not been so blatant in their Team Orders as to get fined by the FIA and up in front of the WMSC?

For your information, the FIA have already stated that a breach of Article 151c, which relates to bringing the sport into disrepute, had been committed. It's history. What's your point?

I do wish you would debate the points raised when you pick on someone for making them in the first place. Otherwise it's just sniping at people for not agreeing with you :-??

I await your list of questions that you want me to answer. :-)

[Hermann]

I don´t blame anyone for not doing it in a smart way back then. They are all only human and it was a difficult situation. What I don´t like is the behaviour afterwards. We had the lying discussion, but what is anoying me most is they still want us to believe everything is fine, the Ferrari-team is still a big family and Hockenheim is forgotten now. Do they really think we are so stupid to believe that?

I am also in a not F1 related forum, there is only one thread about F1 in the General discussions corner. Those people don´t know much about F1 but they all feel deceived by Ferrari because of all this happy-family-and-nothing-has-changed. This is what makes Ferrari noncredible.


Well you could educate them a bit and tell them it was done even more blatantly by McLaren in 2008 with Hamilton and RD thanking Heikki openly for his 'cooperation'. Maybe thats what the team should have done too after Hockenheim, learn something from McLaren. Always attack, never defend.

[FFFerrari]

Well you could educate them a bit and tell them it was done even more blatantly by McLaren in 2008 with Hamilton and RD thanking Heikki openly for his 'cooperation'. Maybe thats what the team should have done too after Hockenheim, learn something from McLaren. Always attack, never defend.

Too bad that was then and this is know. They aren't going to touch old cases in WMSC. And now Ferrari is going to pay for their stupidity and believe me, because of Austria 2002 and particularly because it's Ferrari doing it again they won't be handled lightly.

[Fiondella]

Hang on dude. Hypocrisy is pretending to have beliefs that you don't actually have - often highlighted by doing or saying the opposite of what you afirm to be your beliefs.

What is hypocritical about wishing Ferrari had not been so blatant in their Team Orders as to get fined by the FIA and up in front of the WMSC?

For your information, the FIA have already stated that a breach of Article 151c, which relates to bringing the sport into disrepute, had been committed. It's history. What's your point?

I do wish you would debate the points raised when you pick on someone for making them in the first place. Otherwise it's just sniping at people for not agreeing with you :-??

I await your list of questions that you want me to answer. :-)

Look mate seem's like you have a giant bee in your bonnet. I'm not sniping at you. You dress it how you want but my point is that it is a nonsense rule and IMO nothing will happen. Dressing up Team Orders with coded messages and strategic pit stops or even staged overtakes is just an insult to the conoscenti and that's what you are asking for Ferrari to be better at. No more questions from me :-)

[Hermann]

Too bad that was then and this is know. They aren't going to touch old cases in WMSC. And now Ferrari is going to pay for their stupidity and believe me, because of Austria 2002 and particularly because it's Ferrari doing it again they won't be handled lightly.

But that was 2002 as well. 8 years back in contrast to 2 years back and oh, i forgot, it was McLaren and not Ferrari. That is a difference of course. And they are paying for Smedley's stupidity who wasn't able (or willing) to do what he is being paid for.

I'm really getting tired of all the team/driver bashing going on here, we will see what comes out of the WMSC hearing, we have no influence on that anyway.

[REDARMYSOJA]

Look mate seem's like you have a giant bee in your bonnet. I'm not sniping at you. You dress it how you want but my point is that it is a nonsense rule and IMO nothing will happen. Dressing up Team Orders with coded messages and strategic pit stops or even staged overtakes is just an insult to the conoscenti and that's what you are asking for Ferrari to be better at. No more questions from me :-)

Apparently some people would rather be treated like a mushroom, kept in the dark and fed bs.

[Tifosi]

Apparently some people would rather be treated like a mushroom, kept in the dark and fed bs.

The point flies silently over the heads of many :-)

[aroutis]

Too bad that was then and this is know. They aren't going to touch old cases in WMSC. And now Ferrari is going to pay for their stupidity and believe me, because of Austria 2002 and particularly because it's Ferrari doing it again they won't be handled lightly.

That's what you think of course. Because WMSC will be reminded of these events and the real problem that is the inconsistency of following this rule, let alone of how it's handled.

Noone said that they'll be called upon to judge on those cases, but these cases (incidents, whatever) can be very well used as arguments. And I am sure they will be. Specially since the press has been all over them.

[mad_ani]

Poor drivers, earning $15M or $18M, being considered heros, going out with supermodels and doing what they love the most, racing. With such sad lifes, to ask of them to do what is best for the team is truly outrageous.
Mind you, I think they are paid fairly because they aren't paid for what they do, but rather for the risks of failing the incredibly tough selection process to arrive in F1, but still all those people talking about drivers as if we had to feel sorry for them for something like this make me laugh.

Your example is retarded, what matters is the best for the team, if the team decide that one of their drivers has no real chances at the WDC, and the said team wants the WDC (as all do), it's obvious they will do what it takes to support the other driver's chances. If both are with a fair shot at the championship, it's better to keep both their chances intact, because a big accident, some mechanical failures or some mistakes and your first choice may be your downfall. Besides, there's no better publicity for your team than to have both your drivers as the main (or better yet, the only) contenders for the WDC.


Yes Massa had/has a chance of winning the WDC mathematically.There have been many instances in the past where a driver has come from way behind and won the WDC...A recent one which comes to memory is 2007...It did seem unrealistic that Kimi would have had a shot at WDC 4 races to the finish...but then, he won it...All it takes is for Massa to *win* 2-3 races and he can get back into contention...

[Anni]

Yes Massa had/has a chance of winning the WDC mathematically.There have been many instances in the past where a driver has come from way behind and won the WDC...A recent one which comes to memory is 2007...It did seem unrealistic that Kimi would have had a shot at WDC 4 races to the finish...but then, he won it...All it takes is for Massa to *win* 2-3 races and he can get back into contention...

:thumb
Yes, in motorsport you never know! Massa´s WDC is not over yet, he pointed out his determination is stronger than ever now. In my opinion no driver deserves the title more than him after what all happend in the past. For sure this all has made him stronger and now he will show us again he is a fighter!
If he looses the title this year by 7 points I will do ´harakiri´ out of frustration!

[Hornet]

Yes Massa had/has a chance of winning the WDC mathematically.There have been many instances in the past where a driver has come from way behind and won the WDC...A recent one which comes to memory is 2007...It did seem unrealistic that Kimi would have had a shot at WDC 4 races to the finish...but then, he won it...All it takes is for Massa to *win* 2-3 races and he can get back into contention...
Winning 3 races is hardly enough

[Anni]

Winning 3 races is hardly enough

Everyone here knows it´s very unlikely Massa will be WDC 2010, but you never know. Motorsport is never predictable and sometimes crazy things happen. We Massa fans didn´t have much to cheer about the past few month. Can you not let us at least have a DREAM?!

[Katu]

Everyone here knows it´s very unlikely Massa will be WDC 2010, but you never know. Motorsport is never predictable and sometimes crazy things happen. We Massa fans didn´t have much to cheer about the past few month. Can you not let us at least have a DREAM?!

you can dream, who forbits you that. but there are dreams that are far more realistic than massa becoming WDC

[Hornet]

Everyone here knows it´s very unlikely Massa will be WDC 2010, but you never know. Motorsport is never predictable and sometimes crazy things happen. We Massa fans didn´t have much to cheer about the past few month. Can you not let us at least have a DREAM?!

I don't mean its wrong to support Massa at this point, I'd like to see Massa do well too. I just don't agree with the "disagreement with Ferrari's decision" to back Alonso just because Massa still has a mathematical chance of being in the hunt. Anything can happen but Ferrari has to go with something that have significantly higher chance of happening. So yeah, there's nothing wrong to continue hoping for Massa to do well, just do understand why Ferrari made their choice.

[Anni]

I don't mean its wrong to support Massa at this point, I'd like to see Massa do well too. I just don't agree with the "disagreement with Ferrari's decision" to back Alonso just because Massa still has a mathematical chance of being in the hunt. Anything can happen but Ferrari has to go with something that have significantly higher chance of happening. So yeah, there's nothing wrong to continue hoping for Massa to do well, just do understand why Ferrari made their choice.

I think we all will never get to a point of agreement about Ferrari´s desicion, will we? :-)
However, I see now I misunderstood you, you didn´t mean any offense and I appologize for becoming a bit over-defensive ;-)

[Hornet]

I think we all will never get to a point of agreement about Ferrari´s desicion, will we? :-)
However, I see now I misunderstood you, you didn´t mean any offense and I appologize for becoming a bit over-defensive ;-)

No worries, no need to apologize for anything, I did not felt any offense at all by your replies :-)

[Alessandra]

There is a very interesting interview with Piquet Jnr. on the planetf1.com site , 'Senna Comes to Massa's Defence.'

He confirms the point that some of us have been striving to make for weeks . The most common code is the one Ferrari uses, that your team mate is faster than you.

Now that he's no longer driving in F1 he's free to say what every other driver and team on the track must know and often use; even members of the media who've worked in the sport but still made such a fuss after Hockenheim that Ferrari is in this absurd position re. the FIA enquiry, not to mention the fine.

[Katu]

Now that he's no longer driving in F1 he's free to say what every other driver and team on the track must know and often use; even members of the media who've worked in the sport but still made such a fuss after Hockenheim that Ferrari is in this absurd position re. the FIA enquiry, not to mention the fine.

he also mentions there that every team uses teamorders, why are all of them denying that then?

[Salvador Dali]

he also mentions there that every team uses teamorders, why are all of them denying that then?

Who, when and why has ever been honest about anything concerning F1? It's more business than sport. Than again if someone was honest would we the outsiders know the difference? The rule is a nonsense. Teams pay millions to sport 2 cars and get a few bucks from Bernie if they do well. There are no more gentleman in F1 that would rather loose millions just to be honest.

Ferrari know what they are doing and if they get a penalty it's them and their sponsors that pay that not us. We are just having a chat about it... ;-)

[TheProdigalSon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2iOZs5jgks&feature=player_embedded

[justjesper]

Love the description of the video :lol Alonso's bad luck :lol
toooo funny :-)

Any way. I think most here understand why Ferrari did what they did. Yes Alonso has a better chance for sure. What I do not understand is the way they did it and how they afterwards try to cover it up.
In my point of view a total Leadership meltdown.

[Brakefade]

F1 is full of hypocrites. Everyone favors the driver they think has a better chance of winning the WDC, or in McScum case they favor the English driver over the Spanish one, but anyways, yeah... F1 is full of hypocrites. Horner obviously prefers Vetter over Webber. He won't admit in public, but everyone knows it. The wing controversy and the collision in Turkey, which was clearly Vettel's fault, but RB quickly condemned Webber, which they then retracted. Oh but oh no, Mr Horner wants to take a high and mighty attitude with that BBC bafoon Jordan, and condem and look down on Ferrari for doing what everyone does.

[justjesper]

And you are doing the exact same thing right now :lou

[TheProdigalSon]

Love the description of the video :lol Alonso's bad luck :lol
toooo funny :-)

Any way. I think most here understand why Ferrari did what they did. Yes Alonso has a better chance for sure. What I do not understand is the way they did it and how they afterwards try to cover it up.
In my point of view a total Leadership meltdown.

Yawn.. move on your boring me.

[justjesper]

Yawn.. move on your boring me.

Thank you

[TheProdigalSon]

Thank you

Your welcome

[mad_ani]

F1 is full of hypocrites. Everyone favors the driver they think has a better chance of winning the WDC, or in McScum case they favor the English driver over the Spanish one, but anyways, yeah... F1 is full of hypocrites. Horner obviously prefers Vetter over Webber. He won't admit in public, but everyone knows it. The wing controversy and the collision in Turkey, which was clearly Vettel's fault, but RB quickly condemned Webber, which they then retracted. Oh but oh no, Mr Horner wants to take a high and mighty attitude with that BBC bafoon Jordan, and condem and look down on Ferrari for doing what everyone does.

Maybe you are referring to this sort of blame game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q92ow2Kgn1I

[theforce]

Does anyone know where I could get or have the video of the press conference after the Hungary race when all the reporters were nailing alonso but he kept his cool. Here is Australia we only get the first 3 questions from the FIA and thats it. I read the interview but want to see it.

[mad_ani]

http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/6290308/Sunday-s-Hungarian-press-conference

In text though...

Looking the race from any torrent files....or so....

youtube has nothing much on the same...

[Greig]

Did you read what he asked for?

[Meiga]

Does anyone know where I could get or have the video of the press conference after the Hungary race when all the reporters were nailing alonso but he kept his cool. Here is Australia we only get the first 3 questions from the FIA and thats it. I read the interview but want to see it.
The Spanish broadcaster, La Sexta, prepared this summary (from 0:45 onwards) - obviously you should expect some bias in the comments by the Spanish anchormen and in the selection of the PC bits that made it into the summary :-P , but fortunately they have left the original audio of the PC with subtitles. In fairness to the Spanish TV, though, I have to say that they tried not to generalise about the "English press" by stating at the beginning of the video that the "attack" to Alonso did not come from the majority of English journalists, but only from three or four of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0FxB01S4-E&feature=related

[Hermann]

In that video i think Lobato complains about the behaviour of some of the british journalists and rightly so. The spanish press rarely defend their driver against those attacks, while they should, at least in my oppinion. Mostly they are a sad lot echoing english or german press reports not even daring to voice an own oppinion.

[Meiga]

In that video i think Lobato complains about the behaviour of some of the british journalists and rightly so. The spanish press rarely defend their driver against those attacks, while they should, at least in my oppinion. Mostly they are a sad lot echoing english or german press reports not even daring to voice an own oppinion.
He does indeed, he is just careful to state that he is criticising the three or four journalists that showed an appalling behaviour, and not generalising about all British journalists. But I do think that the Spanish press does defend Alonso against these attacks, only that maybe they could be a bit more vocal during the PCs.

[vcs316]

Ferrari backed over team orders controversy

Former Formula One drivers Nelson Piquet and Gerhard Berger say that Ferrari are right to favour Fernando Alonso in the battle for the world championship.

Felipe Massa was controversially made to pull over and let Alonso past to take victory in the German Grand Prix, resulting in widespread criticism over Ferrari breaching the ban over team orders. As a result, the Italian team has been asked to explain its actions to the World Motor Sport Council disciplinary hearing next month.

But Nelson Piquet Jr, who was Alonso's team-mate at Renault during the even more controversial 'crashgate' affair, says Ferrari will always favour the quicker man.

"It's hard for Massa that Alonso came into the team later but is faster," Piquet told Brazilian newsmagazine Istoe. "But Ferrari will not miss an opportunity to give a driver the opportunity to close the gap to the championship leaders.

"If Massa doesn't want this to happen, then he has to work out a way to go faster than Alonso - there's nothing else he can do. Because if he'd been ahead of Alonso in the championship, it would have been him going past."

Former Ferrari driver Gerhard Berger added that once the Maranello team had achieved its aim of signing the two-time world champion, there was always only going to be one team leader.

"Let's not kid ourselves," Berger told Auto Motor und Sport. "Alonso is clearly the better man in the team; their only chance for the world championship.

"[Ferrari president Luca di] Montezemolo went shopping for him and he is going to play this card as hard as he can."

© ESPN EMEA Ltd

[Brakefade]

The Spanish broadcaster, La Sexta, prepared this summary (from 0:45 onwards) - obviously you should expect some bias in the comments by the Spanish anchormen and in the selection of the PC bits that made it into the summary :-P , but fortunately they have left the original audio of the PC with subtitles. In fairness to the Spanish TV, though, I have to say that they tried not to generalise about the "English press" by stating at the beginning of the video that the "attack" to Alonso did not come from the majority of English journalists, but only from three or four of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0FxB01S4-E&feature=related

Very proud of Alonso here. Everyone in the world knows if it had been Hamilton he wouldn't have been subjected to this line of questioning. I know this will motivate Alonso and Ferrari to win the Championship, just to shove it in their faces.

[Suzie]

Very proud of Alonso here. Everyone in the world knows if it had been Hamilton he wouldn't have been subjected to this line of questioning. I know this will motivate Alonso and Ferrari to win the Championship, just to shove it in their faces.

No, the British press obviously wouldn't have questioned Hamilton so aggressively but he's had problems with journalists too, like here:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/10/20/journalist-gives-hamilton-a-grilling/

I don't agree with members of the media acting like that. It's fair enough them being hard but fair sometimes, but that Daily Mirror(?) journalist clearly doesn't like Alonso - it's a bit unprofessional if he can't leave his own personal bias to one side when he's doing his job. Whether or not I agree with what happened in Hockenheim or not, I think Alonso did damn well not to get up and walk out.

[TheProdigalSon]

Very proud of Alonso here. Everyone in the world knows if it had been Hamilton he wouldn't have been subjected to this line of questioning. I know this will motivate Alonso and Ferrari to win the Championship, just to shove it in their faces.

Yeah Alonso handled it really well, good on him I hope he shows them! :-)

[Brakefade]

No, the British press obviously wouldn't have questioned Hamilton so aggressively but he's had problems with journalists too, like here:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/10/20/journalist-gives-hamilton-a-grilling/

I don't agree with members of the media acting like that. It's fair enough them being hard but fair sometimes, but that Daily Mirror(?) journalist clearly doesn't like Alonso - it's a bit unprofessional if he can't leave his own personal bias to one side when he's doing his job. Whether or not I agree with what happened in Hockenheim or not, I think Alonso did damn well not to get up and walk out.

That was one person, Alonso had to go up against all, but a few members, of the British press. The only people that I've heard defend Alonso/Ferrari are DC and Brundle. Funny it's the two drivers, while most of the arm chair journalist are the ones condemning them.

Also look at the way Alonso handled the media. Hamilton on the other hand... "I don't want to talk to you anymore" :lol

[justjesper]

Niki Lauda : FERRARI WILL GET 'PASTING' FROM FIA

http://www.racers-republic.com/f1/news/2000/lauda-ferrari-will-get-pasting-from-fia

If so it will look bad for us. So hopefully we win the next one 1-2

[Greig]

Shame for him we never broke any rules then, there was no direct team order given :-)

[aroutis]

It'd be very interesting if Lauda could point out to us where exactly it was the point that Ferrari actually asked for Massa to give his place to Alonso.

As Greig says, there was no direct team orders given, nothing different than what everyone else does really in every single race since 2002.

Then again, typical Lauda..

[Salvador Dali]

bahh... Niki is just an old git trying to look smart so he just hops on the anti-Ferrari wagon (nice to know he sees the Bull's as the most honest team and not McLaren as they like to show them selfe...) and trys to give the "other" fans a loaded gun pointed at Ferrari...

If the council can't prove team orders were given then that is it. But if they go for Ferrari just coss of the pressure from the outside of F1 then they are just as bad as they try to make Ferrari look...

I just wish someone would remind Niki of what an ill-sportman he was and how much he cared for all the things he is so supportiv of now...
Niki go home and leave F1 to someone that still remembers what it is all about!

[NJB13]

Bucky Beaver has had a chip on his shoulder against Ferrari since the race he pulled out of. We thought he should have stayed on raced - like all the other drivers - he pulled out cause it was too wet. It sucks even more given everything we did for him. He will take every opportunity to sink the boot into us, and the FH media knows it.

[Hermann]

Anyone wanna bet that all the pressure from the british media will force the WMSC to punish Ferrari further?

[Greig]

Bucky Beaver has had a chip on his shoulder against Ferrari since the race he pulled out of. We thought he should have stayed on raced - like all the other drivers - he pulled out cause it was too wet. It sucks even more given everything we did for him. He will take every opportunity to sink the boot into us, and the FH media knows it.

To be fair he had just survived death at the time, can't blame him for being a bit worried :-)

[NJB13]

To be fair he had just survived death at the time, can't blame him for being a bit worried :-)

I'm not angry at him for being effected by the crash or for pulling out. It just annoys me that he has this massive vendetta against us for daring to take the view that maybe it was ok to stay out. And it is doubly hard to take because it was Enzo himself who gave him the money to avoid bankruptcy. He seems to have completely forgotten that.
Either way he wont stop and the FH'ing media just keep baiting him and then lapping it up.

[Tifosi]

Lauda is predictable. If you bait someone with an axe to grind they will happily oblige and Niki seems to be the easiest person to go to when the media need an anti-Ferrari stance to keep the mill going. :roll

[justjesper]

And non of us saw and understood that it was a team order ? :lou

Ferrari, in my mind, has always done the outmost to stay inside the regulations. So this bothers me, to see my team trying to pull a trick like this.

[Greig]

And non of us saw and understood that it was a team order ? :lou

Ferrari, in my mind, has always done the outmost to stay inside the regulations. So this bothers me, to see my team trying to pull a trick like this.

There was no direct team order, yes Ferrari were saints prior to the German GP 2010.....60 years of never brushing with the FIA down the drain in one foul moment....seriously you are just trolling really ain't you?

[Salvador Dali]

Ferrari, in my mind, has always done the outmost to stay inside the regulations. So this bothers me, to see my team trying to pull a trick like this.


There was no direct team order, yes Ferrari were saints prior to the German GP 2010.....60 years of never brushing with the FIA down the drain in one foul moment....seriously you are just trolling really ain't you?

No I don't think so Greig. The fact of the matter is that imho it CAN'T BE PROVEN IT WAS A TEAM ORDER, but it may well have been...
I don't see it that way either Greig but the man said IN MY MIND... He can have his own opinion... Not every one is on the same page as to what happened or what should be done. To me that is not trolling, but hey that is just me...

[theforce]

why do ferrari ex-drivers turn out to be back stabbers? first rubens thought he should open his mouth after hungary and now this Nikki old fart?:Hmm

[Greig]

No I don't think so Greig. The fact of the matter is that imho it CAN'T BE PROVEN IT WAS A TEAM ORDER, but it may well have been...
I don't see it that way either Greig but the man said IN MY MIND... He can have his own opinion... Not every one is on the same page as to what happened or what should be done. To me that is not trolling, but hey that is just me...

His mind must be pretty shallow then to suggest Ferrari has never ever went to the limit of the rules won't you say LOL in my mind he is just trolling (see what I did there)

[Salvador Dali]

LOL... yes I see... :lol

As I said I think in the same way as you do about this whole mess...

[Tifoso]

Lauda has always been a dip. A courageous hero for racing so soon after his injury, I will give him that. But a blowhard.

[Suzie]

Ferrari give their response to Niki ;-)

http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formula1/News/Headlines/Pages/100820_F1_Horse_Whisperer.aspx


After events in Hockenheim, a wave of hypocrisy swept through the paddock, with so many pundits, young and old, keen to have their say: some were promptly brought back into line by his master’s voice, while others continue to pronounce sentence willy-nilly. The lastest missive comes from Austria, from a person, who having hung up his helmet, has never missed out on a chance to dispense opinions left and right, even if, on more than one occasion, he has had to indulge in some verbal acrobatics to reposition himself in line with the prevailing wind. This time, good old Niki has missed out on a fine opportunity to keep his mouth shut, given that, when he was a Scuderia driver, the supposed Ferrari driver management policy suited him perfectly…That aside, where was all his moral fury when, over the past years, so many have been guilty of more or less overt hypocritical actions? As for any predictions regarding a possible decision from the FIA World Council on 8 September, time will tell: in this sort of situation, the best policy is to respect and to trust in the highest level of the sport’s governing body.

[Salvador Dali]

Well said and nicely put at Niki's foot! Well done Ferrari! Non hypocrist already knew this but it seems that poor old Niki had to be reminded...

Now let us just hope that FIA will act in the same manner and put this mess in the past where it should be...

[Greig]

While I agree with Ferrari they really don't need to speak like this to a former driver....we should have more class than that.

[Salvador Dali]

Nice one Greig - Touché! ;-)

While I agree with you we have seen that the H.W. is somewhat out spoken in his or her views. IMHO H.W. is slowly getting there -about... This time H.W. just replayed to Niki's rubbish not at all like the last time H.W. attacked the new teams without any sort of provocation. So in my book it is a step in the right direction. Not there yet but here is hoping!

[Tifoso]

While I agree with Ferrari they really don't need to speak like this to a former driver....we should have more class than that.



Agreed. We should always show class and remain above these things.

[Hermann]

Agreed. We should always show class and remain above these things.

'We' should always be quiet and swallow all insults? Hm......

[Suzie]

While I agree with Ferrari they really don't need to speak like this to a former driver....we should have more class than that.

I agree, it's embarrassing and makes us appear arrogant. Think they should stick to the old adage of if you having nothing good to say, don't say anything.

[Tifosi]

I just do not understand why we have a PR department sometimes. On the one hand you have Stefano being the perfect example of "saying the right thing" and always making himself available to the BBC, and on the other you have Luca Colajanni grumping his way through interviews defensively and Ferrari's official website making snappy comments for the press to pick up.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of Lauda is unnecessary and being self righteous in error isn't going to help.

[vcs316]

Ferrari deserve 'severe punishment' - Mosley

Ferrari should receive a significant sporting sanction for breaking the rules at Hockenheim, according to the controversial former president of F1's governing body.

After the Italian team angrily slammed Niki Lauda for predicting a similar outcome at next month's FIA disciplinary hearing, Max Mosley waded into the debate during an interview with Welt am Sonntag newspaper.

Race leader Felipe Massa moved over to let Fernando Alonso win the German Grand Prix in July and "both cars and both drivers should lose the points they achieved", 70-year-old Briton Mosley said.

"I will not make any recommendation, but on the facts at the moment there should have been some sporting sanction and not only a fine," he added.

Mosley said "most teams" would like the team orders ban to be repealed, but he said the rule was designed to "meet the needs of millions of fans".

"In the event that it (team orders) is brought into play, we have to impose a severe punishment," he explained.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=383124

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

Ferrari deserve 'severe punishment' - Mosley

Ferrari should receive a significant sporting sanction for breaking the rules at Hockenheim, according to the controversial former president of F1's governing body.

After the Italian team angrily slammed Niki Lauda for predicting a similar outcome at next month's FIA disciplinary hearing, Max Mosley waded into the debate during an interview with Welt am Sonntag newspaper.

Race leader Felipe Massa moved over to let Fernando Alonso win the German Grand Prix in July and "both cars and both drivers should lose the points they achieved", 70-year-old Briton Mosley said.

"I will not make any recommendation, but on the facts at the moment there should have been some sporting sanction and not only a fine," he added.

Mosley said "most teams" would like the team orders ban to be repealed, but he said the rule was designed to "meet the needs of millions of fans".

"In the event that it (team orders) is brought into play, we have to impose a severe punishment," he explained.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=383124

god! go rot and die mosley!

[XXX132]

Lauda is just worried for his fellow Austrians at Red Bull so no surprises there...:lou

[aroutis]

Ferrari deserve 'severe punishment' - Mosley

Ferrari should receive a significant sporting sanction for breaking the rules at Hockenheim, according to the controversial former president of F1's governing body.

After the Italian team angrily slammed Niki Lauda for predicting a similar outcome at next month's FIA disciplinary hearing, Max Mosley waded into the debate during an interview with Welt am Sonntag newspaper.

Race leader Felipe Massa moved over to let Fernando Alonso win the German Grand Prix in July and "both cars and both drivers should lose the points they achieved", 70-year-old Briton Mosley said.

"I will not make any recommendation, but on the facts at the moment there should have been some sporting sanction and not only a fine," he added.

Mosley said "most teams" would like the team orders ban to be repealed, but he said the rule was designed to "meet the needs of millions of fans".

"In the event that it (team orders) is brought into play, we have to impose a severe punishment," he explained.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=383124

Is it proper for someone still actively involved in FIA to open his mouth in a case examined from WMSC?

[aroutis]

re: Ferrari's response, it was nicely done.

A reminder of the obvious still "forgotten" by some that wish to forget, that those things are common practice and this whole thing is plainly ridiculous.

To go out saying that Ferrari should be severely punished (aka Mosley, aka Lauda) just goes to show there's a big problem in F1 and that is NOT Ferrari.

[Salvador Dali]

No it is defenetly not OK! But what can we expect from Mad Max... I feel sorry for JT as he is now between a rock and a hard place... By the looks of thing WMSC will have no other option but to realy come down on Ferrari. I just don't get why they feel that the drivers should be punished. They are payed by Ferrari and have to do what they tell them to do, or potenitally loose ther jobs...

Again insted of racing we are up to our ears in politics... sad. :-(

[shostak]

Ferrari is reportedly prepared to launch civil action against the FIA if further sanctions are imposed by the World Motor Sport Council next month.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=383311

[Hermann]

Ferrari is reportedly prepared to launch civil action against the FIA if further sanctions are imposed by the World Motor Sport Council next month.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=383311

This is getting funnier the minute. What comes next? Will they start attacking each other with sticks and pitchforks? Seriously, F1 has become such a joke, people who still take this seriously should have their heads examined.

[Katu]

mucho ruido, pocas nueces. i'm starting to get tired of this

[aroutis]

This is getting funnier the minute. What comes next? Will they start attacking each other with sticks and pitchforks? Seriously, F1 has become such a joke, people who still take this seriously should have their heads examined.

I see nothing funny honestly. Ferrari (if there's true to this) is examining their legal options, considering that they will have financial losses should they have further penalization from the WMSC.

Anything less would be irresponsible.

[shostak]

The solution so that no one gets hurt by this mess is Machiavellian but equally ingenious: it is claimed that Germany commissioners wrong team orders with team strategy, which is what Ferrari applied. Ferrari did well in their fight for the Drivers' title and not intended to influence the outcome of that race in particular.
Team orders are not liberalized but are confined to when a team applies them not to harm another.

Source (in spanish): http://f1actual.es/2010/08/07/%C2%BFque-pasara-con-las-ordenes-de-equipo/