Mosley: Ferrari must be punished

[Axelsson]

Former FIA president Max Mosley believes that Formula 1's ban on team orders must remain, and that Ferrari should lose points for imposing them at the German Grand Prix.

With Ferrari due to face a hearing of the FIA's World Motor Sport Council next month to answer charges that it breached the sport's regulations by ordering Felipe Massa to move aside for Fernando Alonso, Mosley believes action has to be taken.

Speaking to German newspaper Welt Am Sonntag, Mosley said that for the sake of fans it was important the team orders ban remained.

"Most teams are in favour of the ban being lifted," said Mosley. "But if one wants to fulfil the needs of the audience, then one must maintain the ban. In the event that it is brought into play by a team, we have to impose a severe punishment."

Regarding the Ferrari matter, Mosley believes that further action should be taken against Ferrari beyond the $100,000 (USD) fine imposed at Hockenheim.

"Both cars and both drivers should lose the points they achieved in the German Grand Prix," he said. "I will not make any recommendation, but on the facts at the moment there should have been some sporting sanction and not only a fine."

Autosport

[Tifosi]

stick him in a room with Niki Lauda. shut the door. lock it. forget where the room is....

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

i think they should give them another $100,000 fine and leave it at that but warn if they do it again then they will be chucked out of the constuctors championship, getting rid of the drivers points is pointless as they didnt do anything wrong!

they should lift this stupid rule maybe modify it so you can use team orders within team to benifit in the drivers championship it's just too silly ither get rid of the rule or dont have 2 cars per team!

[Effone]

i think they should give them another $100,000 fine and leave it at that but warn if they do it again then they will be chucked out of the constuctors championship, getting rid of the drivers points is pointless as they didnt do anything wrong!

they should lift this stupid rule maybe modify it so you can use team orders within team to benifit in the drivers championship it's just too silly ither get rid of the rule or dont have 2 cars per team!


Fining them $100,000 is like fining me 2p - pointless.

Either say its ok and leave it or dock them points. there is no sense in a fine.

I'm sure it'll be ok.

[Brakefade]

Why didn't any of these people say anything about banning Hamilton and Vettel when those two idiots endangered the entire pit lane in China? How many "reprimands" has Hamilton been given? If the FIA want to be fair a reprimand is all they should give us. It's not like we put people's lives in danger, and they also owe us from Valencia. Also, why didn't we hear anything from these same people over Valencia. At least we didn't hear anything about the FIA's mistake, instead all we heard was negative comments over Ferrari's anger. Well what you expect geniuses? I guess as long as Hamilton benefits it doesn't matter. :roll

[Ste]

Fining them $100,000 is like fining me 2p - pointless.

:lol

That's just the sort of thing I'd say!

[REDARMYSOJA]

Maybe Ferrari will be punished with a spanking and Max will offer to take the punishment for them.

[Alessandra]

Both cars and both drivers should lose the points they achieved in the German Grand Prix," he said. "I will not make any recommendation, but on the facts at the moment there should have been some sporting sanction and not only a fine."

Do you know, I'd forgotten all about him!
What a vindictive old man he is.

[steelstallions]

Mosley: Ferrari must be punished

Which Ferrari is he referring to, the team we love or some hooker who took the name to attract more paying sado's like him?

[Greig]

I await Ferrari's response via The Horse Whisperer :-D

[Ant Raikkonen]

I await Ferrari's response via The Horse Whisperer :-D

Oh, hell yeah!! :lol

[RockyRaccoon]

The 'new' FIA seems keen to distance itself from the Mosely era so maybe having Mosely spouting off in the media will work in Ferrari's favour!?

[Rob]

he just want to make head lines, sad man. Its like remember me? no not really max. How come you didnt say anything about Schueys driving in canada or Hungary? why didnt you say you 2ps worth after valencia when hamilton overtook SC?? Oh they not Ferrari and nows will not get many people (british press&RBR&Mclaren fans) to back him on any comments about those drivers. Just go back to Soho or where ever you have been and stay there. Bye Max. :wave

[Liscia]

Who cares what Mosley says? Why even ask him? He's out of it and good riddance.
As to Niki Lauda who used to be one of my childhood heroes-he's goneand so is his friendship
and loyalty to LCdM and Ferrari (who hired him not once but twice). We're now hearing from his
evil twin Niki Loudamouth who blows any way the wind does.....................

[Tony]

How this man has any credibility after what he did is beyond me....

[Tifoso]

I think they deserve a good whipping. Problem is, I'm not sure if Max would consider that punishment or pleasure :Hmm

[Tony]

:lol :lol :lol

[sav_pap]

What an idiot :furious!!!!

[Fiondella]

Massage Palours up and down the country should ban this man on the basis that he exercised team orders whilst frolicking:-D

[Italian Spirit]

Mosley opinion is worth as much as second hand wc paper. What worries me is the little French. :Hmm
The divorce with Ferrari went sour (that's a long, complex story) and it's a known fact that Todt is incredibly rancorous.
Hold on Luca! :-D

[TheProdigalSon]

Ferrari: Mosely must be spanked!

By horse wisperer

[Greig]

Mosley opinion is worth as much as second hand wc paper. What worries me is the little French. :Hmm
The divorce with Ferrari went sour (that's a long, complex story) and it's a known fact that Todt is incredibly rancorous.
Hold on Luca! :-D

Todt has said he is not taking active role in F1 matters though :-) and I do not agree it went sour with Ferrari either ;-)

[RedRebel40]

Ferrari thinks about Ferrari and the FIA thinks about the Formula1. let's see what the hearing will say.

[Greig]

Ferrari thinks about Ferrari and the FIA thinks about the Formula1. let's see what the hearing will say.

And Ferrari is Formula 1 :-) As the ringmaster knows, we shall see, sounds like you are hoping for some punishment though?

[ferrari4life]

I really dont think JT should involve himself in this. I think he was a big supporter of team orders all his years at Ferrari and should not make himself seem shallow like these other fools who are two faced lying dogs like Martin Withmarsh and Mosley and Lauda.
If he wants to do anything he should ban the stupid rule..

if they take ferrari points away then I think ferrari should sue and treathen to quit. I for one will refuse to watch another race this year.

[WRX202]

Bah! It's just the usual stupid politics. Mosley putting pressure on the FIA, Ferrari threatening to sue the FIA and so on... Seriously I thought by now the name "Mosley" would appear as "******" on this forum as anything that involves him should be censored :lol
The FIA has to prove that they instructed Massa to move for Alonso. It was obvious to our eyes but to the courts it means nothing. It's like recording a Mafia cartel phone call saying "Hey Tony, we have da roba comin on a Friday" it could mean they have a tonne of cocaine on it's way or it could mean they have a pizza delivery. No one can charge a team on a radio conversation and unless Massa confesses that he was instructed to slow down then as it stands what he did was out of his own will cause Alonso was faster.
"Alonso is faster" does not mean "move over" to my ears, so what if he said "Vettel was faster" and the RedBull overtook him would that mean he was instructed to move over for him? Okay, we all know what it meant in reality but the point is proving it. Points in F1 = Millions of €uro hence the threat from Ferrari to sue if they're docked away and even though I am against what they did I am all out against any fool trying to force the FIA to damage Ferrari.

Peace! :thumb

[RedRebel40]

And Ferrari is Formula 1 :-) As the ringmaster knows, we shall see, sounds like you are hoping for some punishment though?

no not for a punishment, but I don't like these kind of position switches between drivers. the faster driver must overtake the slower one on a racey way.

[Agron]

no not for a punishment, but I don't like these kind of position switches between drivers. the faster driver must overtake the slower one on a racey way.Are you sure you are a MS fan?

[RedRebel40]

I am a MS fan, but I hated those schumacher/barichello overtakings. It's not about a driver or a team, but these kind of actions are not good for the sport :)

[Greig]

Why are they not good for the sport when they have been part and parcel of the sport from day 1?

[Stormsearcher]

I think mosley should be shot. :furious

[FrankAlfa]

Mosley is entitled to his opinion but the Media's hungry for his opinions is sickening. He did a lot of damage to Formula One during his tenure and everyone would be much better off not having him in the loop.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[justjesper]

I think what ever happens. I think the focus on this will ether bring Team orders back or not, but it will for sure put pressure on any overtaking move on any teammate in the future.
I personally don't think team orders are good. Who is the really the best driver or team ? if the whole season has been rigged.

[Greig]

I think what ever happens. I think the focus on this will ether bring Team orders back or not, but it will for sure put pressure on any overtaking move on any teammate in the future.
I personally don't think team orders are good. Who is the really the best driver or team ? if the whole season has been rigged.

Whole season been rigged? ok bit over dramatic, let's take away 5 of MS's titles shall we LOL I have yet to see a team order that affects the teams points......

[Rob]

the teams interests come first. Team doesnt care what the date was or if Felipe was faster in the end. Fernando got more points and in better position for WDC. Championships come first. Its been with not just F1, but ALL motorsport from year 1. That fine is actually (maybe) 2 fines. Fines are limited by Article 155 $50,000. Article 151c of the sporting code (bring sport into disrepute) and Article 39.1 (team oders)

[justjesper]

Whole season been rigged? ok bit over dramatic, let's take away 5 of MS's titles shall we LOL I have yet to see a team order that affects the teams points......

LOL Was not saying that any season was rigged. My point was that I think that banning team orders did help the sport.
Team orders, in my mind, would damage the sport in the case that the ban would be lifted. So talking about Michael and some of his titles only make it even more clear that team orders should be kept banned.
I'm sorry that the FIA hit down on us ( Ferrari ) but as all knows I think we did it in a extremely bad way, but better for the fans it's now almost impossible to favor any driver on the track.

[Greig]

LOL Was not saying that any season was rigged. My point was that I think that banning team orders did help the sport.
Team orders, in my mind, would damage the sport in the case that the ban would be lifted. So talking about Michael and some of his titles only make it even more clear that team orders should be kept banned.
I'm sorry that the FIA hit down on us ( Ferrari ) but as all knows I think we did it in a extremely bad way, but better for the fans it's now almost impossible to favor any driver on the track.

So what is rigged then? How did banning them help the sport when there has been countless occasions they are still used? Because it's not obvious to you then its ok?

You really think its impossible for a driver to be favoured now? Sorry but its very easy for a team to favour a driver.

[aroutis]

My point was that I think that banning team orders did help the sport.Taken into consideration that there've been incidents that this rule has been evaded, with no actions taken by the FiA, would you care to elaborate as to how this rule has helped the sport ?

[justjesper]

Team orders was banned after the Ferrari incident where Rubens was ordered to let Michael pass. I think we all know that.

Was it the fastest man winning that race, or I should say the one who had been leading the race until the last corner.
Was it nice to see the swap. Was the fans happy to see it. Should McLaren just say Jason move over for Lewis, Or " Webber has to win, move a side Vettel "
The whole point in having the team orders banned is to give us the fans a better show, and support a team and perhaps even support 2 drivers.

I'm sorry but Ferrari has brought this on them self. Of cause Massa had to move over for Kimi so he could win the championship. But it was done with amazing skill, precision, and it looked like a fair fight. I'm sure it wasn't 100% clean. But it had to be done.
I know what I'm saying contradicts what I said about supporting the ban. But lifting the ban you will se many many more incidents where a driver from start to finish of the season never get a chance to show anything.

Just think that I for some very strange reason got to give one order to the team for next season, making a driver only driving a support car. I'm sure many here would hate it, and they should. Why should Alonso not be given the chance to win a race. I think you get my point.

But it a interesting debate, So please tell me what we would get out of lifting the ban. What would be better ?

[Greig]

Hmmm Massa let Kimi pass him in a pitstop, not sure how it was skill and precision, and everyone knew what it was back then no doubt about it, Kimi lifted in China as obviously as we done in Germany, team orders were banned then too, no outcry...how did you feel then? You have not really put forward much of a case why the ban is good of the sport which would be interesting to hear :-) Alonso never started the season with a right to win, we all seen Australia right? Ferrari made the decision quite rightly when the time was right, as they always have done, other than when it was MS and his contract stated he was no1 and the other guy was a puppet :-)

Lifting the ban would not change much, you seem to think it would make teams hire no1 and a no2, well not really as most never done such a thing prior to the ban so why would you think they suddenly would now?

[RedRebel40]

other than when it was MS and his contract stated he was no1 and the other guy was a puppet :-)



Have you seen the contract of Schumacher?

[aroutis]

Team orders was banned after the Ferrari incident where Rubens was ordered to let Michael pass. I think we all know that.

Was it the fastest man winning that race, or I should say the one who had been leading the race until the last corner.
Was it nice to see the swap. Was the fans happy to see it. Should McLaren just say Jason move over for Lewis, Or " Webber has to win, move a side Vettel "
The whole point in having the team orders banned is to give us the fans a better show, and support a team and perhaps even support 2 drivers.

I'm sorry but Ferrari has brought this on them self. Of cause Massa had to move over for Kimi so he could win the championship. But it was done with amazing skill, precision, and it looked like a fair fight. I'm sure it wasn't 100% clean. But it had to be done.
I know what I'm saying contradicts what I said about supporting the ban. But lifting the ban you will se many many more incidents where a driver from start to finish of the season never get a chance to show anything.

Just think that I for some very strange reason got to give one order to the team for next season, making a driver only driving a support car. I'm sure many here would hate it, and they should. Why should Alonso not be given the chance to win a race. I think you get my point.

But it a interesting debate, So please tell me what we would get out of lifting the ban. What would be better ?
Since I don't know how long you've been watching F1, I need compelled to perhaps educate you a bit.

Yes, the so called team orders rule was imposed (stupidly IMHO) after 2002 and when FIA saw the crowds (stupidly, again) reacting to what happened then. But , was it the first time something like this happened?

hmm... according to this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHd8n1D4wkM I am sure you will agree that this is not the first time, given the fact this is back in .. 1998 and oh my God, it's not even Ferrari that does it but it's actually the Holly -equal Status- McLaren. :lol

If it was not as late as night, I would find you instances that the same thing -pretty much- happened AFTER 2002, basically the rule was imposed because back then FiA was afraid that the fact Ferrari was dominating was actually damaging the product, so they wanted to show they were doing something (they were trying to change that, with altering the point system, the rules etc etc etc).

So to answer your question. Given the fact that F1 is a TEAM sport, where the drivers do the best for the TEAMS they work for (that's what it's always been about, just look back at the times when for example a certain Fangio could get #2 drivers' car and drive on if HIS car failed), I can understand why teams just find ways to just plainly ignore this rule (and just complain when they have something to gain from a team getting plastered by getting caught ignoring it:lol). Sport as it is defined has absolutely nothing to gain by this whole thing, only people who would like team orders banned are those that watch F1 in order to support the drivers and not the teams but this is not what F1 is about.

[brembo man]

Why are they not good for the sport when they have been part and parcel of the sport from day 1?

Boxing always had fighters throwing a match. But the winner was never considered a true winner, just a bum. That's true from day one also, but the sport still is what it is.

[justjesper]

To answer your questions.

You have not really put forward much of a case why the ban is good of the sport which would be interesting to hear :-)
Ferrari made the decision quite rightly when the time was right, as they always have done, other than when it was MS and his contract stated he was no1 and the other guy was a puppet :-)

I'm happy to see some good support for Michael :-)

This is what I wrote before

Was it nice to see the swap. Was the fans happy to see it. Should McLaren just say Jason move over for Lewis, Or " Webber has to win, move a side Vettel "
The whole point in having the team orders banned is to give us the fans a better show, and support a team and perhaps even support 2 drivers.

But it a interesting debate, So please tell me what we would get out of lifting the ban. What would be better ?

I will try to answer again:

I don't think the fans appreciated any team orders. If you look at us, all Ferrari fans here, but only one side of the "garage" has no problem with it. And that make sense to that side. It doesn't make much sense to me. We are split on things now more then ever I think.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps all the negative media attention is good for the sport. good for sales.


Only people who would like team orders banned are those that watch F1 in order to support the drivers and not the teams but this is not what F1 is about.

If it was not because of the drivers we wouldn't be talking about this now, yes your right.
I do think your wrong about the sport is not about the drivers.

I like to hear a bit more of what good team orders will bring the sport.

[Greig]

I don't think the fans appreciated any team orders. If you look at us, all Ferrari fans here, but only one side of the "garage" has no problem with it. And that make sense to that side. It doesn't make much sense to me. We are split on things now more then ever I think..

I am on no side of the garage as you put it, and have no problem with it, you are clearly never going to be on the Alonso side of the garage and as such you probably will never accept anything that favours him, but turn a blind eye to the times it favoured Felipe or Michael :-)

[aroutis]

I like to hear a bit more of what good team orders will bring the sport.Ever since the beginning, team orders EXISTED. Asking me what good will team orders will BRING is a bit erroneous since usually one asks if the introduction of a new thing will bring something good whereas when the thing is already there, one should ask if the removal of the thing will bring something good for the sport.

So the real question(s) in my opinion is :

Since team orders always existed and the sport exists for quite some time now,
a. why is it that in 2002 there was a decision to ban them?
b. judging by the fact that the rule was in effect ignored and FiA most of the time (99.9%) did nothing about it, was (a.) a good call?
c. if the answer of (b.) is no, shouldn't FIA recall the aforementioned rule since obviously there's no sense in having a rule in the book that noone's following?

[justjesper]

I am on no side of the garage as you put it, and have no problem with it, you are clearly never going to be on the Alonso side of the garage and as such you probably will never accept anything that favours him, but turn a blind eye to the times it favoured Felipe or Michael :-)

I apologies if you took it personally Greig, it was not a personal attack.

Please stop attacking anything I say and answer my questions if you like to comment. Seriously everything I writ, you just wanna jump on.
Is it because you don't like me ???? is it because I have been honest about how I feel about certain things.

Where are the Moderators, here. Cause I'm starting to think that you just monitor all my posts, not to throw light on the matter but just to sabotage it.

[Greig]

I apologies if you took it personally Greig, it was not a personal attack.

Please stop attacking anything I say and answer my questions if you like to comment. Seriously everything I writ, you just wanna jump on.
Is it because you don't like me ???? is it because I have been honest about how I feel about certain things.

Where are the Moderators, here. Cause I'm starting to think that you just monitor all my posts, not to throw light on the matter but just to sabotage it.

Where did I take it personally? and where is the personal attack on you? you just say that when your opinions are debated, as such there is no real point you coming here to post if you revert to crying wolf.....you said only one side of the garage has no problem with it, I am telling you that is not true and that many fans do not have a side of the garage as you try to claim. I also point out how your dislike for Alonso clouds most of your posts and everyone really knows that now :-)

Moderators are all around, report some posts that you feel are personal attacks on you (note YOU, not your opinion) and see if they are bothered or just get tired of your time wasting ;-)

[justjesper]

I am on no side of the garage as you put it, and have no problem with it, you are clearly never going to be on the Alonso side of the garage and as such you probably will never accept anything that favours him, but turn a blind eye to the times it favoured Felipe or Michael :-)

Well Greig. You did say that you didn't pick a side in the garage. So clearly you did take my comment personally. If you read it again, you will see that it was not a personal message to you. The only thing I did say of personal matter, was your support for MS, and that was clearly a joke. As I know you said you never liked him.
I know you have some personal problem with me and how I think, but why do you have to bring it up all the time, and use it as a argument.

I was asking what good lifting the ban on Team Orders would bring the sport ? but then you go on about stuff that I have never talked about. I even said I contradicted my self and that teams do sort out there drivers position in some instances.
I also said that it could had been done much more clever. I also said that the focus on the subject regarding Team orders was good, but that I do not think lifting the ban is a good idea.
But I like to learn and if there is some good argument as to why it would be great to lift the ban , then why would I not change my mind.

I think that would be a more reasonable discussion.

[Greig]

You are making things up now and if you are the one making personal attacks then you best to stop it as that is against the rules :-) nothing you say I take personally, sorry if that upsets you :-) You are the only one veering off topic and avoiding the debate by making up silly claims that you are being personally attacked ;-)

The fact you contradict your own opinion pretty much answers your questions for you :-) no point debating an opinion that is pretty hollow, and anyway you have yet to tell us why a team order ban is good for the sport, bearing in mind the ban had done nothing to stop team orders :-)

[justjesper]

I apologies for not understanding that you do like Michael Schumacher.

And back on the topic.

I assume you would like the ban lifted.
What good would it bring

[Greig]

I apologies for not understanding that you do like Michael Schumacher.

And back on the topic.

I assume you would like the ban lifted.
What good would it bring

That has nothing to do with the topic :-)

The good it would bring?



Teams allowed to use their drivers as they see fit and as they pay them for.
Teams not doing team orders in secret and people like yourself not seeing them, or just turning a blind eye
Less hypocrisy in the press.
No need for FIA to pick when to get involved and when to turn a blind eye, and making F1 a soap opera.
Total transparency in how a team operates, and fans know where they stand.
Drivers not put in silly situations and having to lie.


Why would you prefer cloak and dagger and lies, and why do you think teams and drivers lying is good for the sport?

[justjesper]

The good it would bring?



Teams allowed to use their drivers as they see fit and as they pay them for.
Teams not doing team orders in secret and people like yourself not seeing them, or just turning a blind eye
Less hypocrisy in the press.
No need for FIA to pick when to get involved and when to turn a blind eye, and making F1 a soap opera.
Total transparency in how a team operates, and fans know where they stand.
Drivers not put in silly situations and having to lie.


Why would you prefer cloak and dagger and lies, and why do you think teams and drivers lying is good for the sport?

I do not as you say "and people like yourself not seeing them, or just turning a blind eye" I have stated that it has been done in certain situations. Yes, and I do not think that that is turning a blind eye.
You are right in having the ban make the teams do illegal things.

On the point of what happened in Germany. I still believe that the way it was done was so clumsy that it was obvious that it was a order. This might had been more clear because that the team radio is now open to the public in some degree.

Your right in the assumption that the team would be able to do what they like and there for not be penalized.
Will the sport be better for people supporting only a driver? I'm not talking about you and me but there is millions of fans out there that jump from team to team because of a driver. I think for those fans it would be extremely good or extremely bad.
I think that was what happened back in 2002, many fans were frustrated with what happened even when it was not illegal.
Your point is obviously good for the teams but is it good for those fans who support one driver.

[Greig]

So you think teams will suddenly start to have lapdogs if the ban is removed? how would teams change from what they are doing now? they wouldn't, so why is the ban good for anything? You certainly turned a blind eye to Massa moving, and Kimi moving as you did not come on here telling us how bad you feel and how wrong Ferrari were.

Fans of a driver who is a no2? well they can hope he does better to become a no1 or does not sign a no2 contract I guess........they are free to choose. Teams don't just back a driver for no reason, they tend to back the one doing the best job.....

[justjesper]

So you think teams will suddenly start to have lapdogs if the ban is removed? how would teams change from what they are doing now? they wouldn't, so why is the ban good for anything? You certainly turned a blind eye to Massa moving, and Kimi moving as you did not come on here telling us how bad you feel and how wrong Ferrari were.
Fans of a driver who is a no2? well they can hope he does better to become a no1 or does not sign a no2 contract I guess........they are free to choose. Teams don't just back a driver for no reason, they tend to back the one doing the best job.....

I don't think I would know if they would have lapdogs ? How would I know ??
I repeat I DID NOT TURN A BLIND EYE to the move on all the moves that has happened, I actually, if you could bother your self and read what I think on the matter.
What I have continued to say is that the way it was done last time was so clumsy and unprofessional.

You are right that people supporting a No. 2 driver can just hope the driver get's a No1 contract, I think this was why the team order ban was put in place in the first case.

[Greig]

I don't think I would know if they would have lapdogs ? How would I know ??
I repeat I DID NOT TURN A BLIND EYE to the move on all the moves that has happened, I actually, if you could bother your self and read what I think on the matter.
What I have continued to say is that the way it was done last time was so clumsy and unprofessional.

You are right that people supporting a No. 2 driver can just hope the driver get's a No1 contract, I think this was why the team order ban was put in place in the first case.

And what made you feel it was clumsy and un-professional? the team radio? So do you believe the team order ban has prevented teams from backing one driver over another? And do you believe teams and drivers lying to the media to hide team orders is good for the sport?

The way we done it was no different to how Kimi moved for Massa, no different to how Heikki moved for Lewis, not just in Germany but at Silverstone and France of the same year as well. The team order ban has never been enforced so its a pointless rule, either they should remove it or enforce it firmly.

[justjesper]

And what made you feel it was clumsy and un-professional? the team radio? So do you believe the team order ban has prevented teams from backing one driver over another? And do you believe teams and drivers lying to the media to hide team orders is good for the sport?

The way we done it was no different to how Kimi moved for Massa, no different to how Heikki moved for Lewis, not just in Germany but at Silverstone and France of the same year as well. The team order ban has never been enforced so its a pointless rule, either they should remove it or enforce it firmly.

I do not think any sort of lying is good for the sport, that be this case or any other case, even with other subject matters.
I hope it is ok with you that I acknowledge your stand one the case, and I hope it's ok for you that I slightly disagree :-)

[Greig]

I do not think any sort of lying is good for the sport, that be this case or any other case, even with other subject matters.
I hope it is ok with you that I acknowledge your stand one the case, and I hope it's ok for you that I slightly disagree :-)

So explain why you disagree, you asked for my opinion on why it should not be banned, yet you can't give the same back why it should be banned.....

[justjesper]

Hi Greig. We can all count on a quick reply from you :-) Thanks for that :-)

I thought I did. I didn't make a nice list as you did.
I think the rule was put in , because fans wanted to see a fair fight. After Rubens had been in front the whole race and was just ordered to move a side.
I think it was a good decision for the sport.
I tried to explain that for fans that support perhaps only one driver, and that driver is in front and is ordered to move a side. I think that is a good and healthy reason why the ban should stay.

I do understand your point, that it makes team do something " illegal " But with a bit of a gentle touch it could be done to look real. This is why I did say that I contradicted my self. When Massa moved over for Kimi in brazil, it looked very real.

[Greig]

I replied slower than you did, but don't let the facts get in the way of a petty attempt to have a go now :-) do you wish to set a time limit on how long one should wait before replying to you? shall the quick reply box be changed to "not so quick" reply? seriously....

But the rule has not been enforced and has done nothing to change the way teams operate. Massa moving over was done in the pitlane, you never seen it to look real, how about Kimi at China, lifting off, looked real? So why should a ban that is not enforce or respected by any teams remain in place?

[justjesper]

I replied slower than you did, but don't let the facts get in the way of a petty attempt to have a go now :-) do you wish to set a time limit on how long one should wait before replying to you? shall the quick reply box be changed to "not so quick" reply? seriously....

But the rule has not been enforced and has done nothing to change the way teams operate. Massa moving over was done in the pitlane, you never seen it to look real, how about Kimi at China, lifting off, looked real? So why should a ban that is not enforce or respected by any teams remain in place?

Greig you can reply as fast or as slow as you want, I have no problem with the time it is done :-) Why do you think that.
I do agree that there has been a number of incidents where if for me has looked like team orders. Yes and it has not been picked up by the FIA. And yes it should had been.
I believe that the Brazil ( Massa/Kimi ) incident was a way to secure Kimi and Ferrari the championship. Yes it was done when Massa pitted yes, but for me that was a brilliant way to do it.
I can not recall if that would had been possible in Germany, but it would had made it look real. So I agree that it happens, no doubt about it.
I do not remember the China incident so I have a hard time talking about it. I'm sure your right.

I do still think that this time Ferrari was clumsy in the way they did it. And because of that we have all this talk and the FIA and stupid people like Mosley going crazy.

[Greig]

Why do you mention it then? served what purpose?

Why do you believe it was brilliant to use an illegal move to switch Massa with Kimi in Brazil, but find Germany wrong? the rule is no team orders, does not matter if last race, first race, in pits or on track, the rule is the same. What makes you think this time was clumsy? the team radio must be the only reason to think that, as the lift was nothing we ain't seen before.

So again, why do you believe teams ignoring the rule, lying and cheating is good for the sport? How do you propose this rule be enforced by the FIA?

[justjesper]

Why do you mention it then? served what purpose?
Why do you believe it was brilliant to use an illegal move to switch Massa with Kimi in Brazil, but find Germany wrong? the rule is no team orders, does not matter if last race, first race, in pits or on track, the rule is the same. What makes you think this time was clumsy? the team radio must be the only reason to think that, as the lift was nothing we ain't seen before.

So again, why do you believe teams ignoring the rule, lying and cheating is good for the sport? How do you propose this rule be enforced by the FIA?

I'm so so sorry I said the thing about a quick reply, It was believe it or not a compliment.
I don't think teams are ignoring the rule, well this time with al the radio communication it almost looked like it. Also I think Luca Cordero di Montezemolo's comment did not help on the matter. It purely my thoughts.
So as I said before yes the radio communication played a huge part on this. Yes.
The Incident in Brazil and this one in Germany, I think shows 2 different classes of leadership. This is purely what I think also.
I'm not sure, I might not be as clear on what I think. But if not , please let me know

[Greig]

But both moves were given by the same leadership? Stefano on both occasions making the call....China 08 Kimi lifted very clearly on the straight to let Massa pass, no different to Germany. Luca Di was telling us before China how Kimi will be helping if needed, yet team orders are banned LOL

Most drivers have come out and said they have team orders, and a few team engineers and higher up...DC says every team has them, why do you think teams are not ignoring the rule?

[justjesper]

I think they are not completely ignoring the rule because then there would be a penalty and for me that is a good thing.
And why: be cause it gives me a perhaps ignorant illusion that it is fair.

[Greig]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-66nziDRbk