Red Bull, Ferrari to face new wing deflection test today [Archive] - TheScuderia.net

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vcs316

27th August 2010, 10:58

The FIA is set to try its new and stricter deflection tests on the Red Bull and Ferrari front wings after practice at Spa this afternoon.

FIA sources confirmed that the two teams at the centre of the controversy will be selected, along with one of the “whingers.” Other teams have apparently requested that they get their wings tested.
The teams have not yet been able to try their own tests with the FIA’s official equipment. They had hoped to do so in the FIA scrutineering garage on Thursday, which is when they routinely carry out pre-weekend checks on the weighing platform to confirm that everything is order before the weekend gets underway.
However the FIA decreed that the time consuming deflection tests could only be done on Wednesday afternoon, and no cars were at the track in time.
However teams have been able to do their own tests in their factories, having been told by the FIA on August 13 exactly what format would be used, and thus in theory they should not expect any surprises.

Meanwhile RBR boss Christian Horner insists that his team has not had to modify the wing to meet the new requirements.

“There’s been a lot of noise from other quarters about our car, but I think our guys take it as a compliment,” he said on BBC radio this morning.

“We’re totally happy that our car complies. The FIA have had concerns that have been raised to them, and they’ve raised the tests, but we’re confident that our car complies.”

Horner says he isn’t worried about the new floor tests which will be used in Monza for the first time.

“I think it will affect us only as much as any other team. I don’t think it will have any significant impact upon us. We’re confident that we will comply with any tests that are required.”

http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/08/27/red-bull-ferrari-to-face-new-wing-deflection-test-today/

Stormsearcher

27th August 2010, 15:58

What happened of this? Any news?

zeus2

27th August 2010, 17:28

Red bull and mclaren were tested and surprise surprise Red bull has managed to pass the test AGAIN. :lol. apparently they even tested the floor. Ferrari was not chosen for the test but may be tested tommorrow after quali or after the race. fingers crossed.

here's the article
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86162

Brakefade

27th August 2010, 17:37

IMO the only way the FIA will be able to prevent teams from using flexi wings/floors is to put their own sensors on the cars, and see the real time data streaming off. I wouldn't be surprised if the RB passes the Monza test with little or no modifications needed. Putting static load on the wings cannot be same as having the force of the wind pushing down on things.

scuderia_nano

27th August 2010, 18:19

Rob

27th August 2010, 18:51

Hermann

27th August 2010, 18:53

f300v10

27th August 2010, 21:10

what a surprise!!! i noticed RBR wing still flexing in FFP2. Quick on board shot going into braking and saw it flex up. Looked as if it was as much as before. :roll

FIA turning blind eye to RBR ;-):lou

As has been said before, all wings flex as nothing is completely rigid. The FIA has set a limit on the deflection allowable for a known load. If the Red Bull or Ferrari wings flex less than or equal to that amount, they are legal under the rules. Its not turning a blind eye if the car meets the requirements. F1 has always been about the teams pushing the limits of whats allowed, and personally I hope it stays that way. If I wanted to see the same old cars every year I would watch NASCAR.

Brakefade

27th August 2010, 22:33

This is getting comic by the day. FIA tests wings and they clear it. THEN Mclaren comes with a statement saying they cant figure out the wings and FIA wants to test them again. Now the wings have been cleared yet again. But for us, our wings might be tested after Quali? Freaking Funny!:furious

+1

Like I've said before, the FIA needs to hire more people from other countries besides GB. I'm not bashing the Brits, and I know there's plenty of Brits who are Ferrari fans (obviously), but it's obvious what's going on. It's a conflict of interest and it needs to stop.

AhF1Ah

27th August 2010, 23:08

voiko

28th August 2010, 01:35

thanks for the update! =)

does this mean that by chosing to do us after quali they can slap us with a 10 place grid penalty or something where as if the caught us in practice they would have only had to make us change it before quali?

mad_ani

28th August 2010, 08:41

Q & A: Aldo Costa on wings and floors

By Jonathan Noble Saturday, August 28th 2010, 08:07 GMT

Ferrari and Red Bull Racing have been the focus of much scrutiny in recent weeks about potential flexing of their front wings.

Both teams have, however, insisted that they are doing nothing wrong - and have passed all FIA examinations conducted on their cars.

AUTOSPORT caught up with Ferrari technical director Aldo Costa at Spa to talk about the front wing issue, hear his explanation for why his team's wings run closer to the ground and find out his reaction to the complaints from rival outfits.

Q. There has been a lot of talk in recent weeks about flexing of front wings and perhaps the floors as well. We are now seeing two sets of tests introduced – on the wings here and the floors in Monza. Have you had to make any modifications to your cars?

Aldo Costa: In terms of the front wing, one of the tests is doubling the load but also doubling the deflection. In our case, our front wing is linear – and we don't have any tricks or anything like that. In that respect there is no issue at all.

The other test is the same load as before, the same deflection as before, but it is measured from the reference plane and not from the nose. This is to ensure people do not have flexible noses or flexible attachments on the nose to chassis. Again, this is not an issue for us – apart from the fact that when you have a car on a floor, and you apply a load on the front wing, you also deform slightly the floor of the car and the car moves slightly. That means the deformation will be slightly higher, so we have to take that into account.

For the wings we are using here at Spa, we have not made any modifications, because they are okay. The high downforce front wing we have will require some small adjustments though.

Q. And what about the changes to the floor regulations for Monza?

AC: Everything on this matter was clarified in the summer break by the FIA. There will be a vertical load applied at 100mm on each side of the floor [in the tea tray area]. There is also a new requirement for the plank, which requires modifications for every car I believe. We had a slightly shorter plank [than the new minimum 1 metre length].

The offset load is a pretty severe load in that position, so all the teams that have got a single strut in the middle will have to do some changes. It is not only for a few teams – I think it is a change of all the specifications in F1.

Q. Have you been surprised by the reaction of some teams, especially McLaren and Mercedes GP, in speaking in public that yourselves and Red Bull Racing are using flexible wings?

AC: Yes. We have been very, very surprised because the front wing, in our case, is designed for minimum weight. As always when we design wings, like when we design other elements of the car, there are FIA requirements and you need to respect these requirements. Then you design the component for the minimum weight possible for that requirement – which we did.

So I am very surprised hearing that there are wings that are probably much stiffer than the FIA requirement. This means that they are very conservative in their approach, which is not our business. Really we do not understand this behaviour.

Also in terms of the front wing height, the wing runs so low because it is a choice of our static pitch position, of our front suspension stiffness, of our suspension geometry and characteristic – and that means we can obtain that height. So we do not understand what they are complaining about.

Q. One of the issues from your rival teams is that they think you can only run the wing assembly as low as that, without the front of the floor hitting the ground, if the floor is flexing up or moving...

AC: Yes, but it is not. In my opinion, they are running, through their choice, not as stiff as we are running. They are not running as low as we are running. They are running much more horizontal with their set-up, more flat, so they have an aerodynamic characteristic of their car which is completely different. Or, they are bottoming much less – and they have a problem if they bottom in certain conditions.

I think it is down generally to the characteristics of the car – or they are using it as an excuse. As I see it, the reality is that Ferrari has increased its performance by more than one second in the last five races. We have brought a huge amount of development.

The exhaust system (blown diffuser) has been working very well. And, as well, we have done a nice development on the rear blown wing and other bodywork parts – and the car is improving every race. It was down to a genuine performance development, and nothing related to this business.

Q. Has your wing philosophy changed over the course of this season, because this wing issue only really erupted at Silverstone?

AC: No. In terms of the front wing, we have different specifications. We have wings for high downforce configuration, wings for medium downforce and wings for low downforce at Monza. So, at Silverstone, we were shaking down our three-element front wing which was our first attempt on a three-element wing, because previously we always had two elements. It was a good step forward in terms of aerodynamic performance.

Q. But in terms of philosophy of the rake of the car, nothing changed in terms of geometry?

AC: No.

Q. So there is no reason it should come up at Silverstone rather than the beginning of the year?

AC: No. It came up when we started to be quicker than them!

Q. A lot of complaints are based on photographs of your car and the Red Bull, plus video footage shot in Hungary. Do you think it appears strange, especially on the Red Bull, how low the wing is running?

AC: It is all relative. McLaren and Mercedes, they do not understand how we can run the front wing so low. And we do not understand how Red Bull can run their front wing even lower than us – because we are trying to develop the performance of the car and we decided to go down that route. I don't know how they are able to do it. But if I don't know something, the first thing I do is to start thinking how we can do it.

Q. Do you think the current wing deflection tests are still good enough, or do you believe teams are focusing only on getting through scrutineering and then doing other things out on track?

AC: The front wing FIA load is roughly 2.5 times lower than the maximum load you would get at top speed. So there is room to increase the load, but then it is a matter on how to apply the load statically in the garage. It is not easy. But we would be quite happy to increase the load on the wings. We are quite far from the top speed maximum load, so the wing can accept a higher load for sure in terms of the FIA test. There are no issues on that front from our side.

Q. Will the new tests and rule tweaks for this race and Monza be enough to finally silence this issue once and for all?

AC: I don't know. I don't know what these teams have in mind. If they decide to concentrate on their own car, rather than keep looking around, then yes it will be finished. That is all I can say.

We are speaking with the FIA, we can show them any evidence they want, we are making available any data or telemetry to help them understand how we operate with the car. There are no secrets. The front of the floor is bottoming, and there is an FIA load to check on flexing – and you can have a maximum deflection of 5mm within 200kg. In the more recent races, when we have done the test, our floor has, with 200kg, had just a 2-3 mm deflection. So there is nothing strange there. We are well within the margins.

Q. Is it quite simple to create a car that can run with its front wing low down to the ground, but the difficulty in that is not compromising the rear of the car by having to run it so high there?

AC: It is all linked together. I don't know why, but it seems that there are a couple of teams who are developing their aero characteristics in a different region in terms of settings and set-up. We would never run the car as Mercedes and McLaren run theirs – our car would not be good to run so high at the front and so low at the rear.

Q. Would a difference in the tyre pressures, if they choose to run a higher tyre pressure, have an impact on wing height too?

AC: Yes. There are a lot of small variables. There is tyre pressure; suspension stiffness in terms of spring systems; suspension geometry characteristics. There are a lot of parameters that you can play with if you have got a certain goal and a certain direction you want to take. As usual in F1, you try to go to the limit with every parameter you can to achieve more performance.

mad_ani

28th August 2010, 08:42

Ferrari hopes flexi-wing row over

By Jonathan Noble Saturday, August 28th 2010, 08:06 GMT

Ferrari technical director Aldo Costa hopes the tougher stance taken by the FIA over moveable bodywork brings an end to the ongoing controversy about flexible wings in Formula 1 - as he reiterated has never done anything to try and get around the regulations.

In the wake of complaints from a number of teams - especially McLaren and Mercedes GP – that Ferrari and Red Bull Racing could have been illegally using flexi front wings, the FIA has introduced a series of new tests for this weekend's Belgian Grand Prix and for Monza in a fortnight's time.

In an exclusive interview with AUTOSPORT at Spa, Costa said he was hopeful the new tests would end the grumblings from rival outfits – although conceded that much would depend on the attitude of those unhappy about the matter.

When asked if he thought the Monza tests would silence the issue once and for all, Costa said: "I don't know. I don't know what these teams have in mind. If they decide to concentrate on their own car, rather than keep looking around, then yes it will be finished. That is all I can say.

"We are speaking with the FIA, we can show them any evidence they want, we are making available any data or telemetry to help them understand how we operate with the car. There are no secrets.

"The front of the floor is bottoming and there is an FIA load to check on flexing – you can have a maximum deflection of 5mm within 200kg. In the more recent races, when we have done the test our floor has, with 200kg, had just a 2-3 mm deflection. So there is nothing strange there. We are well within the margins."

Costa says there is a straightforward explanation for why his team's front wings run closer to the ground than some other teams – and actually thinks it more astonishing that rival outfits are not operating their cars in such a way.

When asked if he had been surprised by the reaction from McLaren and Mercedes, Costa said: "Yes. We have been very, very surprised because the front wing, in our case, is designed for minimum weight. As always when we design wings, like when we design other elements of the car, there are FIA requirements and you need to respect these requirements. Then you design the component for the minimum weight possible for that requirement – which we did.

"So I am very surprised hearing that there are wings that are probably much stiffer than the FIA requirement. This means that they are very conservative in their approach, which is not our business. Really we do not understand this behaviour.

"Also in terms of the front wing height, the wing runs so low because it is a choice of our static pitch position, of our front suspension stiffness, of our suspension geometry and characteristic – and that means we can obtain that height. So we do not understand what they are complaining about."

He added: "I don't know why, but it seems that there are a couple of teams who are developing their aero characteristics in a different region in terms of settings and set-up. We would never run the car as Mercedes and McLaren run theirs – our car would not be good to run so high at the front and so low at the rear."

Costa believes that McLaren and Mercedes could easily run their front wings closer to the ground if they wanted, through changing their set-up.

"In my opinion, they are running, through their choice, not as stiff as we are running," he said. "They are not running as low as we are running. They are running much more horizontal with their set-up, more flat, so they have an aerodynamic characteristic of their car which is completely different. Or, they are bottoming much less – and they have a problem if they bottom in certain conditions.

"I think it is down generally to the characteristics of the car – or they are using it as an excuse. As I see it, the reality is that Ferrari has increased its performance by more than one second in the last five races. We have brought a huge amount of development.

"The exhaust system (blown diffuser) has been working very well. And, as well, we have done a nice development on the rear blown wing and other bodywork parts – and the car is improving every race. It was down to a genuine performance development, and nothing related to this business."

Red Bull's RB6 passed the new FIA front wing deflection test at Spa on Friday night, and Ferrari is expected to be subject to an examination at some point over the weekend.

Rob

28th August 2010, 10:23

As has been said before, all wings flex as nothing is completely rigid. The FIA has set a limit on the deflection allowable for a known load. If the Red Bull or Ferrari wings flex less than or equal to that amount, they are legal under the rules. Its not turning a blind eye if the car meets the requirements. F1 has always been about the teams pushing the limits of whats allowed, and personally I hope it stays that way. If I wanted to see the same old cars every year I would watch NASCAR.

I know that and understand that, turn blind eye comment is sarcasm. I know that all wings flex, but not as much as RBR's do. If watch front wing, especially after SFP you saw Webbers front and Vettels wing flex just as much as it has done all year. If we can see this and other teams see this, why cannt or why isnt the FIA doing something about it, instead of keep doing tests, which RBR are obviously still getting around them somehow. Easy way, just ban RBR's front wings.

evo_spook

28th August 2010, 10:34

+1

Like I've said before, the FIA needs to hire more people from other countries besides GB. I'm not bashing the Brits, and I know there's plenty of Brits who are Ferrari fans (obviously), but it's obvious what's going on. It's a conflict of interest and it needs to stop.

Ive never read anything so stupid, what has brits and conflict of interests got to do with flexi wings. There was a conflict of interests previously when Max came out and said he protected Ferrari but I presume that conflict of interest is okay.

Greig

28th August 2010, 10:54

mad_ani

28th August 2010, 11:00

I know that and understand that, turn blind eye comment is sarcasm. I know that all wings flex, but not as much as RBR's do. If watch front wing, especially after SFP you saw Webbers front and Vettels wing flex just as much as it has done all year. If we can see this and other teams see this, why cannt or why isnt the FIA doing something about it, instead of keep doing tests, which RBR are obviously still getting around them somehow. Easy way, just ban RBR's front wings.

FIA has indeed upped the tests(load limit) for Spa and Monaza....but inspite of all this RBR's wings are passing the tests so are Ferrari's (who were accused along with RBR)...It was flexing all thru the season and a ban now would be unfair.The FIA mandated tests are one dimensional...like a load thru a pulley...while the aero downforce acts on a area. FIA has not incorporated any standard test for such cases....hence most teams are passing the load tests by FIA

Greig

28th August 2010, 11:02

FIA has indeed upped the tests(load limit) for Spa and Monaza....but inspite of all this RBR's wings are passing the tests so are Ferrari's (who were accused along with RBR)...It was flexing all thru the season and a ban now would be unfair.The FIA mandated tests are one dimensional...like a load thru a pulley...while the aero downforce acts on a area. FIA has not incorporated any standard test for such cases....hence most teams are passing the load tests by FIA

Why would it be unfair now? LOL was it unfair our flexing floor was banned with a rule change?

Rob

28th August 2010, 15:10

Why would it be unfair now? LOL was it unfair our flexing floor was banned with a rule change?

no it wasnt fair mate.

@mad_ani so how come if everyone in the world can see that RBR wing flex THAT much why doesnt FIA ban that wing?? ours doesnt seem to flex as much as it did much. Wouldnt be unfair at all, now on this new wing, they have changes the camera positions. The camera facing rearwards to show the floor like the 1 on Mclaren is now above the wing. Where they were orginally. Now why doesnt RBR want everyone seeing the floor? what they hiding? :Hmm

Tifosi

28th August 2010, 16:26

Yeah, i have a feeling that RB are playing with everyone with the refusal to point their cams at the underfloor for the simple reason that if they are hiding summat, the FIA would out it at some point under the pressure of the other teams, so there would be no point in them pretending with such obvious subterfuge!

I think it's all games.

mad_ani

29th August 2010, 03:07

no it wasnt fair mate.

@mad_ani so how come if everyone in the world can see that RBR wing flex THAT much why doesnt FIA ban that wing?? ours doesnt seem to flex as much as it did much. Wouldnt be unfair at all, now on this new wing, they have changes the camera positions. The camera facing rearwards to show the floor like the 1 on Mclaren is now above the wing. Where they were orginally. Now why doesnt RBR want everyone seeing the floor? what they hiding? :Hmm

It wasnt fair then and it isnt fair now...

FIA does see this legal as it the deflection tests are all that count..thats what the scruteneers do on thursday afternoons and after the race etc.
RBR have set up the floor and splitter plate such a way that the car runs at higher rake...(higher rear ride height and lower front)..My guess is the way the suspension is set up, and the wings run close to the ground.If you did watch the photos of RBR's front wing, a split in the mainplane was there in Britan and elsewhre...but at Spa, its a continuous profile..Flexing was clearly evident and the floor scrapping the ground was heard on the RBR cars since the start of the season. However, it was highlighted only after the German Gp after Darren heath published the photos

steelstallions

29th August 2010, 05:22

Ferrari technical director Aldo Costa I don't know what these teams have in mind. If they decide to concentrate on their own car, rather than keep looking around, then yes it will be finished. That is all I can say.

:rotfl :clap :clap :clap :clap

Greig

29th August 2010, 14:41

Jenson on the BBC saying the Red Bull front wing seems to have changed :-)

SilverSpeed

29th August 2010, 15:01

Hehe,

anyone got pics for us?

Hermann

30th August 2010, 13:51

Tifosi

30th August 2010, 13:57

Hermann

30th August 2010, 13:59

Its not bending, its swinging. A lot. I'm not sure if this is 'normal' for a front wing i haven't seen anything like this before, maybe it is.

NJB13

30th August 2010, 14:11

No pic, but watch this. Its the accident between Vettel and Button in Spa. Look at 0.22 and watch the wing movement. Is it normal for a front wing to make such movements?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xem3t3_f1-spa-2010-crash-button-vettel_sport

Video got me thinking, I need some help from some techno-propeller-head guys, but, I think there is a difference between "flex" and "tilt", tried to do a quick sketch to show what I mean
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/spankyham/Wing.jpg

Now, I think the rules ban flexing, but, as far as I recall, wings can be adjusted a small amount something like 6 degrees. People expected this would be done by lowering both side the same, but, if you allowed one side to invert that then you would get a tilt, which could tend to lower the wing, without it "flexing". I can't see from this video if the wing is lowering, but it seems to tilt rather than flex.

Tifosi

30th August 2010, 14:12

What's weird is that it doesn't even seem to match the car/steering movements as you'd expect. Optical illusion? Intriguing indeed.

SilverSpeed

30th August 2010, 14:46

Mmz indeed it makes strange movements...

FIA should investigate this more in dept.

zuludemon

30th August 2010, 15:00

Rob

30th August 2010, 18:33

Its to do with the air over the wing - its been seen on vids before - if you check hungary vids you will see the same thing when Vet is following Alo.

The wing works with clean air - once the wing is in dirty air then there is less downforce and so less deflection - what you are seeing is that happening very quickly as the car goes right the right part of the wing get cleaner air but the left part doesnt so looks like its tilting? but as soon as the car goes left that balances then swaps..

yeah, all the BIG wing movements (flexing) are all Red Bull wings. No other cars wings are flexing SO much and not as blattant as that. I noticed Williams wings flex, tiny bit, mclarens dont, ours do tiny bit aswell. But those ruddy RBRs are way to much. Now that wing movement (tilting) has nothing to do with rake or how the ride height is affecting the front wing. I understand aero enough, and what RBR are doing is very clever. I have never seen that kind of flexing (tilting) before when another car is following another (especially since FLEXI wings were banned)

zuludemon

30th August 2010, 18:57

yeah, all the BIG wing movements (flexing) are all Red Bull wings. No other cars wings are flexing SO much and not as blattant as that. I noticed Williams wings flex, tiny bit, mclarens dont, ours do tiny bit aswell. But those ruddy RBRs are way to much. Now that wing movement (tilting) has nothing to do with rake or how the ride height is affecting the front wing. I understand aero enough, and what RBR are doing is very clever. I have never seen that kind of flexing (tilting) before when another car is following another (especially since FLEXI wings were banned)

Im not convinced its so clever - all they are doing is building wings on the edge of 10mm/50kg nothing wrong with that - f1 is meant to be about building things on the limit - all teams have done it in the past.

The reason it seems more unstable than other wings is down to the rake and the height of the wing above the ground - its much more reliant on air flow under and over the wing so when it is disrupted by following another car its all exaggerated.

mad_ani

31st August 2010, 01:15

Jenson on the BBC saying the Red Bull front wing seems to have changed :-)

Of course, they brought a low aero package and less cambered wings to suit Spa as compared to Hungary..PLus the slit in the mainplane is gone...

What was more fishy was that Milton Keynes composite guys were in the paddock this weekend...factory people usually dont attend races