WMSC Hearing - What's gonna happen?

[NJB13]

I know! It's a perfect example because guess what, team orders are against the rules too!...fancy that.

It's is an incorrect and silly comparison because it is not against the rule for a driver to make a decision to help/promote his teammate in the teams best interests.

The fatal flaw in this is that you give far too little importance to the drivers championship. Ultimately, no one really truly cares about the golden boot other than the player himself. With the drivers world championship it's fair to say it's as important (and in many people's eyes more important than) the Constructors championship. I don't think you'd find anyone who thinks the golden boot was anywhere near as important as say, the world cup. But you'll find plenty who put more importance on the drivers championship than the constructors. If the golden boot really was viewed as more important than the world cup I'm absolutely certain we'd have strikers tackling each other for the ball - the system just wouldn't work.

The only fatal flaw is that you don't recognize that the prime objective at every race meeting is for the team to win the race. Now you can carry on about other individual stats and awards, but they are always secondary to the goal of the team winning. There are many examples of individual awards that are equally, if not more highly prized than the WDC, eg the FIFA footballer of the year, or in Australian football the Brownlow Medal.
Any action by any driver that jeopardizes his team winning, no matter how much it promotes his individual record would be completely wrong.

The question is, have we got the right to take away a victory from a driver (albeit shared with Ferrari, it's his victory) who has by all means earned it. In the purest form - the car and driver combination which is fastest over the distance of the race should win the race. Massa and Alonso must be treated as separate entities, as in the drivers championship they are treated as separate entities. If they weren't, and there was only the constructors championship, I would fully agree with team orders. However...this is not the case.

No, the question is has a driver ever got the right to jeopardize the teams chance of winning by putting his personal awards ahead of the team? Answer is a simple no - never. And stop trying to deny that Alonso and Massa are teammate. Yes, that is what they are. They are on the same team. Nothing you can say will ever change that inalienable fact. And the other fact that you cannot deny is that any team member, in any sport, can make their own decision (not from the team management) to help/promote his teammate if he (the individual) believes it is in the best interest, at that moment, on that day, to help achieve the prime goal of the team having a win.

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

It's is an incorrect and silly comparison because it is not against the rule for a driver to make a decision to help/promote his teammate in the teams best interests.



The only fatal flaw is that you don't recognize that the prime objective at every race meeting is for the team to win the race. Now you can carry on about other individual stats and awards, but they are always secondary to the goal of the team winning. There are many examples of individual awards that are equally, if not more highly prized than the WDC, eg the FIFA footballer of the year, or in Australian football the Brownlow Medal.
Any action by any driver that jeopardizes his team winning, no matter how much it promotes his individual record would be completely wrong.



No, the question is has a driver ever got the right to jeopardize the teams chance of winning by putting his personal awards ahead of the team? Answer is a simple no - never. And stop trying to deny that Alonso and Massa are teammate. Yes, that is what they are. They are on the same team. Nothing you can say will ever change that inalienable fact. And the other fact that you cannot deny is that any team member, in any sport, can make their own decision (not from the team management) to help/promote his teammate if he (the individual) believes it is in the best interest, at that moment, on that day, to help achieve the prime goal of the team having a win.

+1 aggree i mean what's the point in having 2 cars if you can't use them the way you want to use them. Scrap the rule or get rid of 2 cars it's as simple as that!

[red5]

My 2 cents...
1) Good one: points subracted from WCC,and hefty fine.
2) Bad one: points subtracted from WCC and WDC,and hefty fine.

Either way,we can rely on a hefty fine

[Rishu]

I hate to say it but i think we will bear car numbers 24 & 25 for the next season...

[Katu]

I hate to say it but i think we will bear car numbers 24 & 25 for the next season...

this rule breaking isn't that serious. i think they should just come out, tell how it was. okay they're probably gonna lose the germany points, but at least they aren't such hypocrites all other teams are who are saying that things like that never happen in their team.
i also think FIA will change and twist that rule a bit or just scrap it.

[Ferrari_Fanatic]

I hate to say it but i think we will bear car numbers 24 & 25 for the next season...

i wouldnt mind that number actually because the next year after we would have Number 1 & 2

Honestly! The most i think were just going to have another fine! Maybe dock some points from the WCC but nothing more than that!

[Ferrari_ fan]

Nice quotes, I'm pretty confident all them are real, aren't them? Ah, no, they were just (biased) opinions, not quotes. Hence, that isn't a "history of using them", just your, pretty respectable, (hater?) opinion.

Ciao

Edited: Just hopping the best for F/F/F to happen in the WMSC (I'm not really optimistic).

The second one was a direct real quote the other 3 were paraphrases of things he has said

[racingbradley]

When you consider that all teams use team orders at some point in the season we may get off reasonably light. If we are made an example of then there will be a witch hunt everyone looking out for who applied team orders and when?????
RB and Macca will have to apply same as the season progresses me thinks.

[Rishu]

i wouldnt mind that number actually because the next year after we would have Number 1 & 2

Honestly! The most i think were just going to have another fine! Maybe dock some points from the WCC but nothing more than that!

That still won't be permanent solution. They need to scrap this nonsense rule.

[Ferrari_ fan]

Lot of hysterics in here.

My opinion of what will happen is:


A: suspended sentance

B: Loss of constructor points

C: Double the fine.

I think it is a mixture of these 3.

WDC is not going to be effected due to it not being in the best interests of the show.

Sadly I don't think think anyone outside of the Ferrari fan base think we are going to win and so slapping up with a penalty won't affect this years show and would allow them to use us as an example to the other teams so that no one will so much as dream of using team orders again

I know what you mean to much bashing here!

Sadly we did wrong and been honest isn't bashing I hope we get away with it but I really can't see how

this rule breaking isn't that serious. i think they should just come out, tell how it was. okay they're probably gonna lose the germany points, but at least they aren't such hypocrites all other teams are who are saying that things like that never happen in their team.
i also think FIA will change and twist that rule a bit or just scrap it.

The rule will stay at least for this season unless not only the FIA but also each and every team agrees to scrap it and lets face it we all know that is never going to happen.

Take a look at the cricket 3 players are facing life time bans for something which had no effect on the game we changed the final result of the game and sadly the team put their interests above those of the sport in the way they conducted themselves, look at the McCra* team least year when Mr L McHamburger lied to the Stewards he had to change his tune very quickly, the team had to apologise and the Chairman had to stand down and they did all that just to get away with losing both drivers and constructors points and they got a suspended fine at the very least we have lied to the Stewards several times and knowing how Alonso has been talking about the FIA this year we are facing some very solid payback on those issues alone and that is before we hit the penalty for changing the result.
I suspect we will go to the hearing and we won't even try to defend ourselves because we know we have been caught out.

I don't think we will get a ban for the whole year but I do think we will lose everything from that race and so lose even the slim chance of winning either title this year, I think it's time to pack up development for this year and get it right for next year and prove to everyone we can still win on the track racing for real and that we don't need to swap our drivers round on the track.

[Ferrari_ fan]

When you consider that all teams use team orders at some point in the season we may get off reasonably light. If we are made an example of then there will be a witch hunt everyone looking out for who applied team orders and when?????
RB and Macca will have to apply same as the season progresses me thinks.

Sadly even if a previous example could be found the FIA won't investigate as it will be to far gone to be worth investigating the problem is this one is very clear cut even if Massa says he did it of his own free will he is part of the team and so the team still fixed the result of the race and he could face an even worse penalty.
I fear we are going to get hit really hard so hard that no team will even dream of using team orders again

Loss of all points from that race and a 12 month total ban from the sport (suspended for 3 years) would be my bet

[Stormsearcher]

If they dock our points, i think we should pack up team A and let Team B... fisi and whoever else drive for the rest of the season.
Team A can then go ahead with building next years car or familiarising with the settings for next year.

[Greig]

Loss of all points from that race and a 12 month total ban from the sport (suspended for 3 years) would be my bet

For a Ferrari fan you have yet to show any support since joining, quite bizarre

[Ferrari_ fan]

For a Ferrari fan you have yet to show any support since joining, quite bizarre

I have frequently said I hope they get away with it but I am also realistic

We were in the wrong I just hope we can learn from this and move on expectations will be low after 2 lean years with quotes of us returning to the bad old days appearing left right and centre which will make it all the more sweeter when we dominate the whole of next year!

[Greig]

I have frequently said I hope they get away with it but I am also realistic

We were in the wrong I just hope we can learn from this and move on expectations will be low after 2 lean years with quotes of us returning to the bad old days appearing left right and centre which will make it all the more sweeter when we dominate the whole of next year!

No we were not in the wrong

[theforce]

I have frequently said I hope they get away with it but I am also realistic

Maybe a bit too realistic

We were in the wrong I just hope we can learn from this and move on expectations will be low after 2 lean years with quotes of us returning to the bad old days appearing left right and centre which will make it all the more sweeter when we dominate the whole of next year!

Not in the wrong and I know others will have a hard time in proving that.

A clear warning about this matter or eradicating it would be my hope.

[Fiondella]

Sadly even if a previous example could be found the FIA won't investigate as it will be to far gone to be worth investigating the problem is this one is very clear cut even if Massa says he did it of his own free will he is part of the team and so the team still fixed the result of the race and he could face an even worse penalty.
I fear we are going to get hit really hard so hard that no team will even dream of using team orders again

Loss of all points from that race and a 12 month total ban from the sport (suspended for 3 years) would be my bet

[Fiondella]

They'll do nothing because the law's an ass

[NJB13]

Sadly I don't think think anyone outside of the Ferrari fan base think we are going to win.......
Sadly we did wrong.......
sadly the team put their interests above those of the sport.......
Sadly even if a previous example could be found.......

Sadly we don't have a Troll patrol

[racingbradley]

If they are really as hard on us as some people suspect then they risk LDM pulling the team out of F1 and starting up a new far better formula-------it was on the drawing board last year and I am sure it's still there.
Far too many new rules are spoiling F1 and taking out some of the variables.
When you hear Coulthard and Brundle saying we having done nothing wrong you wonder. After all they like to get “ their teeth into us” as much as they can.

[Ferrari_ fan]

Sadly we don't have a Troll patrol

Sadly I am a supporter of the sport as well as a Ferrari fan I want the sport to show integrity

I want to be wrong and just because I disagree with someone I don't call them a troll I would seek to openly discuss and debate the issue and that or so I thought was the whole point of forums for discussions otherwise you may as well have a statement of blind of giving blind allegiance

Are you implying that I am a troll because you lack the ability to argue with my logic? If you are I am sorry for you that your not able to think on your own

I love Ferrari and have followed them for longer than I can remember even through the years where we didn't win anything but just like any team they get things wrong even out of context my quotes are very sadly right

Ask the fans and most of them will say they don't think we can do it this year
Again most of the F1 fans agree we used team orders and it wrong of us to do so and the team treated the fans with no respect
And such a clear cut example could not be found since the ban on orders came in

I choose to be realistic at the end of the day the team broke a rule which they signed a contract to say they would uphold that is wrong and even if every single other team openly did it it would still not make it right we are better than that we are the best team in F1!

I want to be able to discuss this and as fans if we can't be honest and realistic then their is no point having any kind of discussion I have taken off the the Ferrari tinted glasses and I still love the team.

[Stormsearcher]

If they are really as hard on us as some people suspect then they risk LDM pulling the team out of F1 and starting up a new far better formula-------it was on the drawing board last year and I am sure it's still there.
Far too many new rules are spoiling F1 and taking out some of the variables.
When you hear Coulthard and Brundle saying we having done nothing wrong you wonder. After all they like to get “ their teeth into us” as much as they can.

Yeah i agree. In fact i suspect there is lots more to it than meets the eye. IMO There are some nasty politics being played in the background which we are not privy to.
I hope we just get warned and let off.. better still the stupid team orders thing is removed completely.

[Fiondella]

Ask the fans and most of them will say they don't think we can do it this year
Again most of the F1 fans agree we used team orders and it wrong of us to do so and the team treated the fans with no respectAnd such a clear cut example could not be found since the ban on orders came in

I choose to be realistic at the end of the day the team broke a rule which they signed a contract to say they would uphold that is wrong and even if every single other team openly did it it would still not make it right we are better than that we are the best team in F1!

I want to be able to discuss this and as fans if we can't be honest and realistic then their is no point having any kind of discussion I have taken off the the Ferrari tinted glasses and I still love the team.

I see, so you conducted a survey and found that a majority disagreed with the decision? Technically the team didn't break any rule. Maybe you should take off your crap stained glasses too

[Ferrari_ fan]

I see, so you conducted a survey and found that a majority disagreed with the decision? Technically the team didn't break any rule. Maybe you should take off your crap stained glasses too

Oh dear reading things which are not there and yes I have spend a great deal of time looking up discussions on various forums Ferrari, other teams and independent to judge what the point of view was and the majority do feel we cheated.

And even if we go with the official story we still broke the rules Massa as a representative of the team allowed Alonso to pass and so he threw the race still in breach of the rules.
Besides if the view on here is found to be true that team orders rule is invalid and can't be used then each and every one of the top teams will use them Mr L Hamburger for McCra* and I don't know who the Red Bull would pick but in that case we would not stand a chance so I hope the rule is upheld but we get away lightly.

I don't have an issue with you or anyone on this forum so please just because I disagree with you please don't get personal discuss the topic not the poster.

[GregoryJenkins]

Sadly I am a supporter of the sport as well as a Ferrari fan I want the sport to show integrity

I want to be wrong and just because I disagree with someone I don't call them a troll I would seek to openly discuss and debate the issue and that or so I thought was the whole point of forums for discussions otherwise you may as well have a statement of blind of giving blind allegiance

Are you implying that I am a troll because you lack the ability to argue with my logic? If you are I am sorry for you that your not able to think on your own

I love Ferrari and have followed them for longer than I can remember even through the years where we didn't win anything but just like any team they get things wrong even out of context my quotes are very sadly right

Ask the fans and most of them will say they don't think we can do it this year
Again most of the F1 fans agree we used team orders and it wrong of us to do so and the team treated the fans with no respect
And such a clear cut example could not be found since the ban on orders came in

I choose to be realistic at the end of the day the team broke a rule which they signed a contract to say they would uphold that is wrong and even if every single other team openly did it it would still not make it right we are better than that we are the best team in F1!

I want to be able to discuss this and as fans if we can't be honest and realistic then their is no point having any kind of discussion I have taken off the the Ferrari tinted glasses and I still love the team.

You're not a troll. You're merely a slightly disillusioned fan, which is different. I'm slightly disillusioned as well - in the fact a lot of people here seem to think we did absolutely nothing wrong...whether or not you disagree with the rules we definitely did not abide by them. As if Massa would just pull aside without any suggestion from Ferrari

The FiA know we did it, they don't need proof (they're not a real court) all they need is for everyone in the court to know (like we do) is what 'Fernando is faster than you' means. If we go in there when Massa is asked whether that was a message to let Nando past and he says 'no'....we are screwed because that is openly lying to the FiA. They'll hate that. Technically we should get off - we should get off on the technicality that they have no actual proof. That's not how this kangeroo court operates though unfortunately. What we need to do is go in there and tell it exactly how it is, which I doubt we're going to do.

Saying that....I hope to god i'm wrong!

[NJB13]

You're not a troll. You're merely a slightly disillusioned fan ..............
....... Saying that....I hope to god i'm wrong!

Yep, you're wrong on that count

[Fiondella]

Oh dear reading things which are not there and yes I have spend a great deal of time looking up discussions on various forums Ferrari, other teams and independent to judge what the point of view was and the majority do feel we cheated.

And even if we go with the official story we still broke the rules Massa as a representative of the team allowed Alonso to pass and so he threw the race still in breach of the rules.
Besides if the view on here is found to be true that team orders rule is invalid and can't be used then each and every one of the top teams will use them Mr L Hamburger for McCra* and I don't know who the Red Bull would pick but in that case we would not stand a chance so I hope the rule is upheld but we get away lightly.

I don't have an issue with you or anyone on this forum so please just because I disagree with you please don't get personal discuss the topic not the poster.

So you beleive that the team will get a suspended 12 month ban and you think that trawling various forums should be the basis of a a sweeping statement telling us that the team is in the wrong and yet you want to be treated seriously when you tell us that you are being realistic.

[dpiatto]

F1 is getting boring again.Spa was a dull motor race.
Bernie needs to liven things up by causing more controversy & chaos.
Lets hope Ferrari get off with just a slap on the wrist , Mclaren get summoned to the WMSC for breaking the the rule 3 times since it was introduced & Red Bull should also get summoned because their 2 drivers keep crashing meaning that damn safety has to keep being deployed resulting in it doing more laps this season than the f1 cars themselves.
Come on Bernie keep Ferrari in the fight & give the Anti Ferrari media something to shout about

[Ferrari_ fan]

So you beleive that the team will get a suspended 12 month ban and you think that trawling various forums should be the basis of a a sweeping statement telling us that the team is in the wrong and yet you want to be treated seriously when you tell us that you are being realistic.

No I said that is the direction of the feeling and I fear they will get a suspended 12 Month ban

The team have been already been charged with breaking the team order rule as result of an official investigation and based on that along side what people most people believe Ferrari guilty even some of the hard core Ferrari fans feel that the team used team orders which is why they are using the argument that everyone does it rather than denying that it happened.

If the FIA ignore it then they not only invalidate the whole rule book but they show that they are corrupt and weak which will affect commercial investment in the sport and affect the public image of the sport.
Yes I love the Ferrari team but I don't think Ferrari is bigger than the sport.

So come on then where do you stand are you saying that you do not even slightly suspect that a single member of the Ferrari team issued an order or even hinted at an order for Massa to allow Alonso through?

And if you feel that Team orders should be allowed would you still be saying the same if it was McCra* or Red Bull who used team orders in the same way to gain advantage over Ferrari?

Try been realistic it makes for better discussions.

[Fiondella]

No I said that is the direction of the feeling and I fear they will get a suspended 12 Month ban

The team have been already been charged with breaking the team order rule as result of an official investigation and based on that along side what people most people believe Ferrari guilty even some of the hard core Ferrari fans feel that the team used team orders which is why they are using the argument that everyone does it rather than denying that it happened.

If the FIA ignore it then they not only invalidate the whole rule book but they show that they are corrupt and weak which will affect commercial investment in the sport and affect the public image of the sport.
Yes I love the Ferrari team but I don't think Ferrari is bigger than the sport.

So come on then where do you stand are you saying that you do not even slightly suspect that a single member of the Ferrari team issued an order or even hinted at an order for Massa to allow Alonso through?

And if you feel that Team orders should be allowed would you still be saying the same if it was McCra* or Red Bull who used team orders in the same way to gain advantage over Ferrari?

Try been realistic it makes for better discussions.

Very difficult to really take you seriously sorry. As I said technically we did nothing wrong. Massa was told that he was slower than Alonso. He wasn't told to let Alonso past. The rule is not workable and is at odds with a teams quest for a WDC