Thread: Ferrari F2012 Development News Thread

  1. #961
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    FIA are such fools they are making it u as they go along.
    Lotus Renault have let them know about this Systemfor the est part of a year, and FIA say it's legal. The
    Ferrari and now Merc have their own systems ready.

    So they wait for teams to spend millions on their own devices before banning them, an then preach cost cutting.


    In Stefano Domenicali, we have a team boss who has proved to be a leader. - Luca diMontezemelo

  2. #962
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    Quote Originally Posted by scuderiafan View Post
    FIA are such fools they are making it u as they go along.
    Lotus Renault have let them know about this Systemfor the est part of a year, and FIA say it's legal. The
    Ferrari and now Merc have their own systems ready.

    So they wait for teams to spend millions on their own devices before banning them, an then preach cost cutting.
    It's as if the teams have no rights, only obligations.

    It would be ideal to freeze the regulations for, say, 2012 in september 2011, then say: "If any of you (teams) are found to use something dangerous, then you won't be allowed to race." That's much better than changin rules mid-season in the name of safety or being green.

    Freezing the rules at a pre-defined date is the way to go, teams need to know exactly what's possible and what isn't.

  3. #963
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    I found some response from FIA on Reuters

    Jan 21 (Reuters) - Formula One's governing body has moved to ban, before the start of pre-season testing, controversial new reactive suspension systems that several teams were working on.

    Williams chief operations engineer Mark Gillan said the International Automobile Federation (FIA) had declared the systems to be illegal for the 2012 season starting in Australia in March.

    "The FIA has just banned that particular type of system," he told Peter Windsor's 'The Flying Lap' weekly live webcast on smibs.tv when asked about one reportedly being developed by Lotus.

    Matteo Bonciani, the FIA's head of F1 communications, confirmed to Reuters that technical head Charlie Whiting had written to all the teams on Friday clarifying the situation.

    He said the FIA had received a number of technical enquiries from teams about the legality of systems that could alter the configuration of a car's suspension in response to changes in brake torque.

    Lotus, previously Renault, first tried out their system at a young driver test in Abu Dhabi last November but have not commented on its significance for the new car to be unveiled next month when testing starts in Spain.

    Several others, including former champions Williams and the sport's most successful team Ferrari, were also believed to be looking into similar devices while awaiting an FIA ruling on their legality.

    The issue had threatened to become the first big technical controversy of a year that will have an unprecedented six world champions, including Finland's Kimi Raikkonen returning with Lotus, on the starting grid.

    Article 3.15 of the 2012 technical regulations, published this month, states that "any car system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited".

    The Lotus system which first put the issue in the public eye was reportedly reactive to brake torque and formed part of the suspension.

    "We have been investigating that type of system for a while," Gillan said. "It is obviously an impact on the aerodynamic platform of the car.

    "Anything that gets the ride-height lower, particularly the front ride-height lower, is beneficial from an aerodynamic perspective."

    Bonciani said systems shown to the FIA for approval relied on changes to the length of a suspension member and appeared to have a primary, if not sole, purpose of affecting the aerodynamic performance of the car.

    Some systems designed to allow additional movement of the brake caliper for aerodynamic purposes were also illegal.

    The governing body ruled that, in its opinion, the systems contravened article 3.15 and possibly articles 10.2.1 and 10.2.3. The latter article states that "no adjustment may be made to the suspension system while the car is in motion". (Reporting by Alan Baldwin; Editing by John O'Brien and Clare Fallon)

  4. #964
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    So Renault gets dinged twice in two years. That's nice of the FIA

  5. #965
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    I never thought a device like that would be allowed. It is against the spirit of the rules with a movable part on the chassis. It is not a brake stabilizing device. It IS an Aero influencing device and is not part to be load tested like the Front Wing on the Red Bull or the Ferrari front wng. I agree with the FIA position on the matter. Any "Active" type of suspension that changes in response to pitch or ride height dynamics has been banned for about 20 years now. I think the teams must concentrate on linear air flow motion and application upon the race car.

    Ciao.

    Forza Ferrari!!!!

  6. #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    I never thought a device like that would be allowed. It is against the spirit of the rules with a movable part on the chassis. It is not a brake stabilizing device. It IS an Aero influencing device and is not part to be load tested like the Front Wing on the Red Bull or the Ferrari front wng. I agree with the FIA position on the matter. Any "Active" type of suspension that changes in response to pitch or ride height dynamics has been banned for about 20 years now. I think the teams must concentrate on linear air flow motion and application upon the race car.

    Ciao.

    Forza Ferrari!!!!
    Problem is the FIA actually allowed it before the other team knew. Now that everyone knew Lotus and Ferrari have it and they don't, suddenly the FIA made a U turn.

    Question is why.

  7. #967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    Problem is the FIA actually allowed it before the other team knew. Now that everyone knew Lotus and Ferrari have it and they don't, suddenly the FIA made a U turn.

    Question is why.
    Perhaps the FIA needs to make a rule that says anything that passes the current years rules but is later deemed to exploit a loophole can only (and will) be clarified and excluded the following season. At least that would allow innovation to occur on a year by year basis without anyone being able to dominate the sport for a long time span (which i believe is what they are really trying to avoid...)

    Surely more rules can fix this recurring (yearly!) problem...

  8. #968
    T van R Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    Problem is the FIA actually allowed it before the other team knew. Now that everyone knew Lotus and Ferrari have it and they don't, suddenly the FIA made a U turn.

    Question is why.
    Answer: FIA is infected by a worm called Red Bull. This worm is rich & has a lot of friends like Bernie Eccelstone & SKYsports
    Last edited by T van R; 22nd January 2012 at 19:19.

  9. #969
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    Quote Originally Posted by T van R View Post
    Answer: FIA is infected by a worm called Red Bull. This warm is rich & has a lot of friends like Bernie Eccelstone & SKYsports
    Yep.

  10. #970
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    Let us not forget the brand of F1 is Ferrari, not Red Bull. Once Fernando takes his second title with Ferrari in a row, none of this is going to matter. Then he'll take his 3rd, 4th, etc.

  11. #971
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    Problem is the FIA actually allowed it before the other team knew. Now that everyone knew Lotus and Ferrari have it and they don't, suddenly the FIA made a U turn.

    Question is why.

    Actually now it seems that they didn't fully allow it yet. If you read the F1.com it says "received initial approval from the FIA's Charlie Whiting" so when other teams wanted clarification on this system they had to present the main function to them. Than probably Fia ICA banned it after someone mentioned article 3.15, 10.2.1 and 10.2.3 when they knew what kind of systems other teams were working on and what could be the function of it. Its not the first time that tehnical delegate overlooked something and Fia banned it afterwards or gave the clarification on rules (or they change the rules by adding new articles).

    That's how it happened in my opinion. Fia don't monitor the designing phase they only give opinions if team ask them for on different matters and when the system is on the car others seek clarification and sometimes ICA finds out that thing is not by the rules or in rules spirit. It's very unpractical because teams spend money on it and after the Fia ban it because they know the full function of it.

    Last November at the young driver test in Abu Dhabi, Lotus (then Renault) evaluated this reactive ride-height suspension system. It's designed to help the car maintain a constant ride height under braking, which should boost stability and hence aerodynamic performance. An obstacle could have been any need for direct input from the driver - excluding DRS, any driver influence on a car's aerodynamics breaches the regulations - but this is entirely mechanical and is activated by the brakes' torque, not the driver. It's reactive, not active. As a result, Lotus's system has already received initial approval from the FIA's Charlie Whiting, whilst other teams are understood to be evaluating its merits, with Mercedes including a version on their MGP W03 project and Ferrari hoping to test theirs at 2012's final pre-season test in Barcelona. The bulk of the system is contained in the car's drum-like brake housing. Additional hydraulic cylinders (1) are connected to the movement of the brake caliper, whilst the suspension's push-rod link (2) is no longer rigidly fixed to the upright but can enjoy a few millimetres' freedom of movement (see yellow highlighted area on inset) to offset the pressure that would ordinarily force the front of the car to pitch, or dive, under braking. If the system really works - something we should discover in pre-season testing - it could become a must-have innovation for 2012.
    http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2012/0/923.html
    Last edited by Forza 27; 22nd January 2012 at 16:40.

  12. #972
    T van R Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Forza 27 View Post
    Actually now it seems that they didn't fully allow it yet. If you read the F1.com it says "received initial approval from the FIA's Charlie Whiting" so when other teams wanted clarification on this system they had to present the main function to them. Than probably Fia ICA banned it after someone mentioned article 3.15, 10.2.1 and 10.2.3 when they knew what kind of systems other teams were working on and what could be the function of it. Its not the first time that tehnical delegate overlooked something and Fia banned it afterwards or gave the clarification on rules (or they change the rules by adding new articles).

    That's how it happened in my opinion. Fia don't monitor the designing phase they only give opinions if team ask them for on different matters and when the system is on the car others seek clarification and sometimes ICA finds out that thing is not by the rules or in rules spirit. It's very unpractical because teams spend money on it and after the Fia ban it because they know the full function of it.
    The thing is Red Bull didn't care from the moment that FIA said Reactive Ride System is legal while other teams like Mercedes, Ferrari announced that they are working on Reactive Ride System. It is odd situation because with a little time left for designing or developing or updating the car, Red Bull said we are in no hurry to work on Reactive Ride System.

  13. #973
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    Sounds like Red Bull have the insider information of the FIA and it always seems to be in Red Bull's favor. This Red Bull / FIA process is very suspect and favoritism seems to be the word of the day! The FIA had better be careful the way they behave or fans will stop watching this sport because everyone will think it's "Fixed"!

    Ciao.

    Forza Ferrari!!!!

  14. #974
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    I agree, very suspicious.

  15. #975
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    Look it don't matter! We wasn't complaining when we were getting special treatment. We have to beat them fair and square and if Rory and Pat have come up with a good car then Alonso & Massa will do the business!

  16. #976
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    14764_ecco-la-ferrari-2012-con-soluzioni-rivoluzionarie.jpg

    Summarise - pull rod suspension, floor and diffuser designed by Byrne, side crash structure visible from outside and new cooling system.

    http://www.microsofttranslator.com/b...rivoluzionarie
    Last edited by TheProdigalSon; 23rd January 2012 at 09:16.
    http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo52ws9xLo1qlt7lao1_500.gif

  17. #977
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    Some indiscretions from Italy about new Ferrari F1 car

    Italian technical journalist Giorgio Piola has struck again, releasing some details of the new Ferrari due to be launched at Maranello on Friday February 3rd.

    The car has been described as “ugly” by Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo and it’s certainly a new departure from the DNA of Ferraris of recent years, but all there are agreed that if it’s fast enough, it will certainly be beautiful!

    Among the indiscretions Piola has published in Gazzetta dello Sport today are that the suspension is a pull-rod system, the first on a Ferrari for 11 years. This is what Red Bull has been using since 2009 and many others have followed.

    It works well with a lower nose and allows a lower centre of gravity on the car. At the rear it allows the back to sit low, clearly part of Ferrari’s strategy for coping with the loss of the blown diffusers.

    The new rules, lowering the nose on the cars, means that the nose droops down.

    The drivers are more reclined in the new Ferrari. The sidepods are very narrow and the crash structures to protect the driver are in two wing like shapes in front of the leading edge of the sidepods, above the radiator inlet line. In addition to meeting the crash requirements, they will clearly have an aerodynamic function.

    All the teams are working on innovative sidepod ideas to try to get the best possible airflow to the rear of the car to make up for the lost downforce from the banning of the blown diffusers. Sidepods offer quite a bit of freedom to the designers.

    According to Piola the front and rear wings at the launch will be old specification, not the 2012 ones.

    The exhaust outlets will be at the lower end of the range specified in the new rules, blowing across the bottom profile of the rear wing. But there is a development plan, apparently, to move to what McLaren and Red Bull is believed to be doing, which is to exit the exhausts high up, to blow across the top profile.

    The car, under the guidance of technical director and former McLaren designer Pat Fry, is the work of Nikolas Tombazis, with legendary Ferrari designer Rory Byrne a significant contributor in the background. It’s believed that Byrne is behind the innovation on the protective structures in the form of a wing in front of the sidepods.

    Last year there was a lot of imagery around the launch of the pride of Italy, celebrating its 150th Anniversary.

    Although the political tone might be lower this year, the team and particularly Montezemolo, will be well aware that Italy needs something to be proud of at this difficult time, with the economy in crisis and the recent sinking of one of its cruise ships another embarrassing episode for the country.

    http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/0...errari-f1-car/
    CAVALLINO RAMPANTE PER SEMPRE

  18. #978
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    The most interesting is that the article says the car will have a front pull rod and rear pull rod suspension (something silmilar to Minardi back in 2001 or cars back in 80s).In this way the nose will be extremely low because of the suspension mountings and this would compromise the air flow under the front nose. It's the way to make clean top area, lower the nose and have lower front CofG. Front pullrod would be a interesting move but I'm not sure we will see this on the car. Once again we will have to wait.
    Last edited by Forza 27; 23rd January 2012 at 10:31.

  19. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forza 27 View Post
    The most interesting is that the article says the car will have a front pull rod and rear pull rod suspension (something silmilar to Minardi back in 2001 or cars back in 80s). I'm not so sure about that because in this way the nose will be extremely low because of the suspension mountings and this would compromise the air flow under the front nose.
    The suspension is not connected to the nose, the article explains the reason for pull-rod suspension at the front is becuase of the regulations for this year making lower noses mandatory, so instead of having that 'ugly' step between the monocoque and the nose they have lowered the monocoque which can now accommodate the pull-rod suspension. The lost air from having a lower front will be recovered by those super slim fighter jet side-pods.
    http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo52ws9xLo1qlt7lao1_500.gif

  20. #980
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    I had in mind that front pull-rod suspension lowers monocoque the consequence is lower nose position. I apologize I didn't explain it well first time.
    The lost air from having a lower front will be recovered by those super slim fighter jet side-pods.
    The air flow under the car is even more important and for this reason teams tryto have higher nose and more space under monocoque to clear the air flow to the splitter which than runs under floor. It could only be recovered with front wings endplates or if there is a section where air from side pods could be transfered under the car. But if they find the way to recover more downforce by side pods it would be great ;)

  21. #981
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    hmmm. pull rod at the front. quite innovative. ferrari is pushing the envelope. I also like the wing like structure in front of the side pods, looks like a mid wing. the only problem with this wing is other teams will be able to copy this innovation once this thing works for the 663. is the wing like structure legal??

  22. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forza 27 View Post
    I had in mind that front pull-rod suspension lowers monocoque the consequence is lower nose position. I apologize I didn't explain it well first time.

    The air flow under the car is even more important and for this reason teams tryto have higher nose and more space under monocoque to clear the air flow to the splitter which than runs under floor. It could only be recovered with front wings endplates or if there is a section where air from side pods could be transfered under the car. But if they find the way to recover more downforce by side pods it would be great ;)
    Different ways to get the same desired effect, high nose is not the only way. Look at Mclaren last year with their low nose that complimented the U-pods.
    http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo52ws9xLo1qlt7lao1_500.gif

  23. #983
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    I'm aware of last years Mclaren design with combination of snowplough front wing and L sidepods. The front would be even lower than that with pullrods but it could work if new 633 has this front end concept. Now if we combine this news and the news about side crash structure this makes some sence. Before it was reported that they had some difficulties with ballance and that they worked on new floor which makes car more drivable. This article above just draws all conclusions together. Lower front > compromised air flow under > less downforce from floor > redesign to gain some of lost air flow back. To have perfect ballance you need to have centre of downforce somewhere at the middle of the car. As you said @TheProdigalSon there different ways to recover that and we will see some on 3rd Feb and the rest on pre-season testing.
    Last edited by Forza 27; 23rd January 2012 at 12:03.

  24. #984
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    Benefits of front pull-rods is low center of gravity and better handling
    http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo52ws9xLo1qlt7lao1_500.gif

  25. #985
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    Ferrari 2012 (?) - italian:

    http://i43.tinypic.com/14kvbp.png

  26. #986
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    The car will be beautiful
    http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo52ws9xLo1qlt7lao1_500.gif

  27. #987
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    This is only a guess design though right?
    "The client is not always right." - Enzo Ferrari

  28. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose-Lorca Fan View Post
    This is only a guess design though right?
    It will not look too different from that, that picture reflects all the info that's known of the car so far.
    http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo52ws9xLo1qlt7lao1_500.gif

  29. #989
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProdigalSon View Post
    It will not look too different from that, that picture reflects all the info that's known of the car so far.
    Ok thanks.

    But i don't recall any mention of a front pull rod in any of the rumors? Please correct me if i'm wrong.
    "The client is not always right." - Enzo Ferrari

  30. #990
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    scarbs "I can't see how an efficient front pull rod can work with a high A-A bulkhead (625mm). With a pushrod its installation angle is near 45-degrees. With a pull rod I can't draw it to get anywhere near as much as 10-degrees."
    Thats his opinion about front pull-rod suspension.
    Last edited by Forza 27; 23rd January 2012 at 16:21.

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