Ferrari F2012 Development News Thread

[Jas]

my bad, looks like its already been posted!

[burak karakutuk]

that is what i have been thinking. and why do they have to change everything, they were winning races while being like this.
but, still, there is good news in that the exhaust is working again, and could be raced in Bahrain. and this kind of stuff happens in the background, and they are working in the right direction to solve the problems they know. he implies that the so called 'fixes' are arriving in Barcelona.
they better work.

Is there any rumor about this topic i mean are we going to use it in Bahrain,any possibilities?The idea to try of this device comes logical to me.But if it doesnt work it will lead to loss of great time.As a result,it seems a little bit risky but worth a try.Maybe team can succeed and understand how it works.Thus,it will help us to prepare better and also some time we can gain.After that we may bring some other new parts and find a few tenths more.

[scuderiafan]

Is there any rumor about this topic i mean are we going to use it in Bahrain,any possibilities?The idea to try of this device comes logical to me.But if it doesnt work it will lead to loss of great time.As a result,it seems a little bit risky but worth a try.Maybe team can succeed and understand how it works.Thus,it will help us to prepare better and also some time we can gain.After that we may bring some other new parts and find a few tenths more.

Red Bull brought both of their solutions to China, so maybe Ferrari do the same next week.

and no rumour, from Stefano's words. i think the article was posted on the page before in this thread. here it is again, mate.
http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/...l-off-the-pace

[mark p]

I like pat frys comments because after listening to him the only way is up. It couldn't be worse. At least anything that will happen will be expected or better which always feels extra good. He's abit like private frazier from dads army. Where was this Pat Fry at Mclaren did they hide him in a cupboard as for years they have grossley overestimated their updates, they keep discussing the title only 2 races in. Until we get our optimum exhaust working how do we know anything we've not got a base line to develop on u.til it's sorted. Once sorted then other areas will fit in place or ac clear line of development on these areas can be sort.

[dmkevin]

Even with all of my strong words about Aldo Costa not reaching far enough in his Design Management as Ferrari Technical Director, I think we are seeing some bigger problems with the Fry / Tombazis Design Direction! I voiced very early on that "What if Ferrari kept the last years design but just changes the rear suspension to Pull Rod?", would be leading or at least closer to the front of the field??? Time will tell if this season will be a bust or will they be able to make this car gain huge downforce in a short time frame???

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

I am sorry to say so but what a loads of crap!!! last years car won 1 race. Had majors issues with tyre warming. even if we solved this it would have already reached it maximum potential of development, then after few races we would have been best third behind mclaren and red bull. I still don't understand your logic... This is F1 the highest tech sport in the world and not Footy, so please stop moaning. Maybe ferrari went the wrong direction, so did adrian newey for many years before he got Redbull to the level they are now and still this year he didn't produce the best car. Ferrari needed a change in philosophy and they did and still is changing the culture and way of work. It will take time and i prefer this long term change that will reap better fruits that will last longer like we did from 2000-2005 era.

[Kiwi Nick]

I get the sense that there are too many chefs and not enough cooks in the Scuderia design process. Who really has the Newey-like vision that is driving the design and development of the car, Costa, Domenicali, Tombazis, Fry? Are they like the four blind men and the elephant, or in this case, dog?

[FrankAlfa]

Well dmKevin, i take great exception with your response. The one race last year's Ferrari won was the British GP where the "Exhaust Blown Diffuser : EBD" was banned. Further, how on earth do you know if last year's Ferrari was at its development cycle??? I think your the one with the "Rubish" and not the other way around. the fact is last year Ferrari stopped development of the car to design a totally different design concept race car. They may very well have developed last years race car in to a winner right now and with the very limited affect of the Exhaust Blown Diffuser this year, last year's race could have been a very good basis for this year's race car. We are just speculating and neither of us have the true answer. All we are seeing right now is a Ferrari race car very well down on downforce which was an area it was to totally revamp and excel at this year. This has not happened and there are many question to be answered in this early part of the season. The target is Spainish GP for a big overhaul of the F2012 race car. I guess we really have to wait and see how this 2012 Advanced Design measures up. My feeling is the person in the hot seat more than anyone is Tombazis. Everyone has to understand that the F2012 is a Tombazis Design, it's not a Stefano Domenicalli Design, it's not a Pat Fry Design. The Aero (Windtunnel Department) & the CFD (Conceptual Fluid Design Department) report to Tomazis where he and Fry decide on the direction of the design based on the data. Ferrari rely on many other Engineers to make that "Design Direction" of construction and application of the setting of the race car conform to the data. This is the process. This car like most of the "High Nose" race cars seem to have a problem with pitch and chassis angle inducing loss of grip through loss of downforce. Red Bull like Ferrari seem to have a similar issue. McLaren seem to have found the conventional shaped nose, though with reduced frontal air flow, has been more stable in downforce variation. Mercedes has found a mean to also reduce the amount of variation by using the DRS Tube to gain speed by buffeting the Front air during high speed load conditions. I think Ferrari have to work on air flow issue on the top side of the race car to have better control of this downforce variation. Vanes, wing design modifications, revised sidepod shape and exhaust gas usage all contribute to maintaining linear air flow which equates to downforce.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[dmkevin]

Well dmKevin, i take great exception with your response. The one race last year's Ferrari won was the British GP where the "Exhaust Blown Diffuser : EBD" was banned. Further, how on earth do you know if last year's Ferrari was at its development cycle??? I think your the one with the "Rubish" and not the other way around. the fact is last year Ferrari stopped development of the car to design a totally different design concept race car. They may very well have developed last years race car in to a winner right now and with the very limited affect of the Exhaust Blown Diffuser this year, last year's race could have been a very good basis for this year's race car. We are just speculating and neither of us have the true answer. All we are seeing right now is a Ferrari race car very well down on downforce which was an area it was to totally revamp and excel at this year. This has not happened and there are many question to be answered in this early part of the season. The target is Spainish GP for a big overhaul of the F2012 race car. I guess we really have to wait and see how this 2012 Advanced Design measures up. My feeling is the person in the hot seat more than anyone is Tombazis. Everyone has to understand that the F2012 is a Tombazis Design, it's not a Stefano Domenicalli Design, it's not a Pat Fry Design. The Aero (Windtunnel Department) & the CFD (Conceptual Fluid Design Department) report to Tomazis where he and Fry decide on the direction of the design based on the data. Ferrari rely on many other Engineers to make that "Design Direction" of construction and application of the setting of the race car conform to the data. This is the process. This car like most of the "High Nose" race cars seem to have a problem with pitch and chassis angle inducing loss of grip through loss of downforce. Red Bull like Ferrari seem to have a similar issue. McLaren seem to have found the conventional shaped nose, though with reduced frontal air flow, has been more stable in downforce variation. Mercedes has found a mean to also reduce the amount of variation by using the DRS Tube to gain speed by buffeting the Front air during high speed load conditions. I think Ferrari have to work on air flow issue on the top side of the race car to have better control of this downforce variation. Vanes, wing design modifications, revised sidepod shape and exhaust gas usage all contribute to maintaining linear air flow which equates to downforce.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

Ok, apologies for using strong words...bad language. Let's start a fresh. What i meant is let's give the guys sometime. I am an aerospace engineer by trade and having studied aerodynamics and used CFD, i know how hard it is to get a development route right. Ferrari had to change their approach to almost everything... remember we won with Kimi bcos alonso and lewis were messing each other up, not necessarily bcos we had the fastest car. Ferrari has been using the same philosophy of car design for quite a while and they have hit the wall of "NO Big Improvement", so they were bound to change something. The route they have taken will highlight all the issues and problems within... The vision is there but the teams need to work in harmony and change their approach to work. " Vision of one, needs power of many". Schumacher era was not done in 1 day, red bull didn't win straight away... The trend is similar, you start with a clean slate and work to get your route to work on a short term but more importantly on along term. Maybe Ferrari have designed a dog of car but no risk no gain. I am as frustrated as you but let's give them guys some time to build a good team which will on the long term deliver the goods. Now coming back to your point, how do i know f150 came to its last development age... that's no rocket science, the car design was way too conservative and was an evolution of previous years car which was already not very good in terms of aerodynamics/package... removing EBD and reworking the car would have probably given us a car with potential to win few races here and there and be in the mix for WCC/WDC for this year only but ask yourself the question, is that all you want? Ferrari to be 2nd tier and not dominant as they were before. I prefer ferrari to build an excellent car like what red bull did past 3 years, and be able to sustain the wins over the next 5 years or so. With this in mind a totally new direction was required and not the conservative approach we had. You start with a revolution and then you go with evolution of the previous concepts until to get the optimum performance and reach the limit of development of the car... what i mean by limit of development is where the scope of development is small, hence performance gain is small with every development and upgrade... I don't know whether tombazis, pat fry and the rest are the right team but only time will tell. But what i cannot fault with the team is what they are trying to achieve and how much they have to change to get there, with the type of pressure there are under. It is quite possible they will solve the issue with the car by spain but will we be winning all the remaining races will be determined by the new route and speed of development that they will have post spain and how the whole team cope with the new structure that pat fry and Dom is putting together which i firmly believe is correct.

[Altharis]

:(

[Hornet]

lol, someone's getting the axe by Luca DM?

[stefa]

This is a "good" sign how F2012 is a "good" car

[T van R]

The car has became quicker with that five updates. Updates are a step forward Well done Ferrari

[Chicane]

as for the rest of the interview, it is not great reading, but surely all that stuff is his job? it is not news to me, Ferrari have been struggling with the lack of testing, so they need to get the simulation tolls working better, and i think that is what he is talking about. i still think putting the original exhaust will be a good boost.

but why is this guy such a downer???

ive watch a video interview of fry in which he says that he is a pessimist type of person..maybe thats why..
on the other hand i think i kinda like it cause his giving a honest interpretation of things that are happening..not giving false hope to fans..
as for the car i dont know why thery are still trying to design this car relative to the ebd concept that tech is gone now..they should try to the merch drs system..damn their flying..imagine if we had this and our race pace is not as bad as the merch..we could always be chalenging for the win..

[Dino]

ive watch a video interview of fry in which he says that he is a pessimist type of person..maybe thats why..
on the other hand i think i kinda like it cause his giving a honest interpretation of things that are happening..not giving false hope to fans..
as for the car i dont know why thery are still trying to design this car relative to the ebd concept that tech is gone now..they should try to the merch drs system..damn their flying..imagine if we had this and our race pace is not as bad as the merch..we could always be chalenging for the win..

Don't be fooled by Mercedes Pole Position.That car was doing ALL the straights with STALLED front and rear wings.They can never be that quick in the race [apart from destroying their tyres before everyone else!!]
One thing the Mercs can do is use their DRS on each other but only in one part of the track!

[FrankAlfa]

@ dmKevin,

+1! Agreed. My background is Civil Engineering & Mechanical Engineering. Ferrari have to just keep developing the car and better manage air flow. They will get there. It is still about "who builds the best mouse trap"! It is about uniformity of downforce and controling latteral instability. I can help by being drawn back in time, several years ago, when Adrian Newey had such trouble at McLaren designing race cars that would not fall apart and fail. Back then they had both Chassis and Engine failures on a very regular basis. The Ferrari F2012 is not a poorly "constructed" race car. It only needs to gain a little more grip and reduce some drag. It will be a step by step process and it will but developed as new things are learned with this concept and new things are tried on the race track.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[T van R]

By my analyzes:

Both Mercedes were quick in qualifying because of DRS-W-Duct but in the race they can't always use DRS-W-Duct so realistically top qualifying time in Chinese GP is about 1:35.600.

So when you compare Qualifying3 times in Malaysian GP with Chinese GP realistically:

Malaysian Qualifying3 top time was 01:36.219 and Our top time was 01.37.566 so the gap was 00:01.347
Chinese Qualifying3 realistic top time is 01:35.600 and Our top time is 01:36.622 so the gap is 00:01.022

So our five updates make F2012 00:00:325 quicker in Chinese GP despite the fact that As pat Fry said those five updates won't show that much in Chinese GP because the Chinese circuit characteristics doesn't suit F2012 well.

[scuderiafan]

Exactly. Very encouraging that every race there is progress of around 3 tenths (see Alonso article in Sepang) updates are working, so if every race they do this, they can get there soon. Can't wait to see the car with proper exhaust in Bahrain.

[Jas]

http://www.formula1.com/news/technic...2/866/950.html

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

Exactly. Very encouraging that every race there is progress of around 3 tenths (see Alonso article in Sepang) updates are working, so if every race they do this, they can get there soon. Can't wait to see the car with proper exhaust in Bahrain.

To be fair, i think the Ferrari actually made a bigger improvement than that. IN Q2 Alonso set a time of 1:35.9, and in Q3 he set a time of 1:36.6, the latter being slower than his Q1 time! I think track temperatures played a big part in Q3 but in if we use Q2 as the measuring ground, then Alonso was only a few tenths off. I say big improvement from Ferrari, definitely more than 0.3 sec imo. Lets hope their new exhaust system works and gives them the boost they need. They need at least 0.5 from it and i think that is a reasonable target given the time they've allocated to look into it.

Hope we have a good race tomorrow, a top 5 finish will do nicely

[Alfa159]

Exactly. Very encouraging that every race there is progress of around 3 tenths (see Alonso article in Sepang) updates are working, so if every race they do this, they can get there soon. Can't wait to see the car with proper exhaust in Bahrain.

Unfortunately I think other teams will be doing the same and developing their cars and Ferrari will constantly be playing 'catch up"

[f300v10]

To be fair, i think the Ferrari actually made a bigger improvement than that. IN Q2 Alonso set a time of 1:35.9, and in Q3 he set a time of 1:36.6, the latter being slower than his Q1 time! I think track temperatures played a big part in Q3 but in if we use Q2 as the measuring ground, then Alonso was only a few tenths off. I say big improvement from Ferrari, definitely more than 0.3 sec imo. Lets hope their new exhaust system works and gives them the boost they need. They need at least 0.5 from it and i think that is a reasonable target given the time they've allocated to look into it.

Hope we have a good race tomorrow, a top 5 finish will do nicely

Agreed, Ferrari seems to be much closer here in China. Several of the cars went much slower in Q3 than Q2, while Rosberg said his rear tires lasted better in Q3 than Q2. Comparing Alonso's Q2 time to Hamiltons Q3 time (the best of what I consider 'legitimate' times), he was only 0.36 seconds off. I think you can throw out the Mercedes times as they will kill their tires, and can't use DRS in the race.

[scuderiafan]

Unfortunately I think other teams will be doing the same and developing their cars and Ferrari will constantly be playing 'catch up"

lotus and mclaren brought updates here, especially mclaren who brought an 'extensive package'

how come ferrari was closer then? especially on a track that doesn't suit them? do Ferrari upgrades > McLaren upgrades?

[diesel08]

http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/170...e-domani-piova

[gazoz]

lotus and mclaren brought updates here, especially mclaren who brought an 'extensive package'

how come ferrari was closer then? especially on a track that doesn't suit them? do Ferrari upgrades > McLaren upgrades?

time will tell tomorrow that is

[Kyss4k]

By my analyzes:

Both Mercedes were quick in qualifying because of DRS-W-Duct but in the race they can't always use DRS-W-Duct so realistically top qualifying time in Chinese GP is about 1:35.600.

So when you compare Qualifying3 times in Malaysian GP with Chinese GP realistically:

Malaysian Qualifying3 top time was 01:36.219 and Our top time was 01.37.566 so the gap was 00:01.347
Chinese Qualifying3 realistic top time is 01:35.600 and Our top time is 01:36.622 so the gap is 00:01.022

So our five updates make F2012 00:00:325 quicker in Chinese GP despite the fact that As pat Fry said those five updates won't show that much in Chinese GP because the Chinese circuit characteristics doesn't suit F2012 well.

I'll post it here as well (just so people notice). Our best time /= 1:36.622, but 1:35:982

[T van R]

I'll post it here as well (just so people notice). Our best time /= 1:36.622, but 1:35:982

As i have mentioned in my post i have compared lap times in qualifying3, So our top lap time in qualifying3 is 1:36.622

[Kyss4k]

As i have mentioned in my post i have compared lap times in qualifying3, So our top lap time in qualifying3 is 1:36.622

Ok, I will not double my post again, so viz. Quali thread.

[Nova]

Due to the improved performance of the Sauber, I did some digging on F1 technical.net..
was reading this...
"In its entirety, the car is an aggressive evolution of the C30, with carryovers mostly at the front of the car while the team have mainly focused to get the rear sorted out, creating narrower sidepods to allow a better airflow onto the diffuser and the beam wing. The exhausts on the Sauber are position quite forward, allowing the hot exhaust gases to get mixed with cooler air before they hit the suspension arms and the rear wing elements. The rear suspension itself meanwhile was also changed into a pullrod design, for benefits of rear airflow and lowering the car's centre of gravity."

I found the bit about the change to the rear susp to pullrod interesting, since there has been mention of carryover and evolution.

[NanoTheQuickest]

I think Alonso did take it pretty easy in Q3. Perhaps they were looking at saving the tires a bit more for a couple reason:
- It seems that our car is reasonably competitive on high fuel load.
- Grid spot is not as important as it use to be, race pace is far more important (easier to overtake with DRS).

I have a feeling that we're not going to look too bad tomorrow.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

A couple of the aero changes for China