Ferrari F2012 Development News Thread

[Hornet]

I think this will benefit teams like McLaren who already have a good car and is just a question of improving it. They can put more resources into developing the DRS duct thing.

I fear for teams like Ferrari, as we already have our hands full trying to make the F2012 work, and now we're forced to develop a DRS duct of our own.

[scuderiafan]

what are the dates for the in season tests?

1st, 2nd and 3rd of May.

http://www.formula1onlive.com/2011/1...confirmed.html

Bahrain GP is this weekend, then the monday a week after the race will be the first day. so just over 2 weeks.

BTW, on Bahrain pace. Quali might be difficult, but if Ferrari can execute a strategy that puts them in clear air for most of the race, they can get solid points. Race pace, whatever the conditions is good enough for that, and really only behind RedBull and of course McLaren. hopefully the heat wont play in the hands of Merc and Sauber in the race.

[FerrariF60]

so in reality we're getting (well not just US, but all teams) only 3 days instead of 4??
i thought last year we had 4 SETS of 4 days each team so in other words 16 days.
this year we had 3 SETS of 4 days in winter testing and now 3 days at Mugello; that means we're getting RIPPED off by ONE DAY....that is NOT fair...then again us NOT being on top isn't fair either...LOL

[scuderiafan]

so in reality we're getting (well not just US, but all teams) only 3 days instead of 4??
i thought last year we had 4 SETS of 4 days each team so in other words 16 days.
this year we had 3 SETS of 4 days in winter testing and now 3 days at Mugello; that means we're getting RIPPED off by ONE DAY....that is NOT fair...then again us NOT being on top isn't fair either...LOL

The Valencia test last year was also 3 days iirc.

[c-man]

Thanks for the dates.

[Hombre B]

From twitter - Gené:

We have a big update for Barcelona, which may be tested first during tests Muguello. I have to admit that would be the most dramatic improvement I've seen in the 13 years I've been in Formula One. The car also has positive things as the management of tires, but we lack traction and top speed.

[vcs316]

Ferrari among teams exploring Mercedes-style DDRS

Ferrari is among the teams likely to develop a Mercedes-style Double DRS (DDRS) now that the system has been declared legal by the FIA.

The Mercedes device improves top speed by stalling the front wing when the DRS is activated, providing a specific advantage in qualifying when DRS use is unrestricted. Lotus protested the DDRS, which works by channelling air from inlets in the rear wing endplates to the car's front wing, but had its argument rejected by the FIA at the Chinese Grand Prix.

Lotus technical director James Allison led the unsuccessful protest, but after the FIA ruling he admitted the rest of the paddock would have to consider introducing a similar system.

"Well they'll certainly need to decide whether or not the opportunity-cost of doing that system is higher than developing the things they had in mind otherwise. And that's exactly the same choice we'll face in our team."

Ferrari technical director Pat Fry, who currently has several problems to solve with the F2012, said his team had been considering the system for some time and is likely to push forward following the FIA ruling.

"We've been looking at it for a while," he said. "I think it's just a case of weighing up what the performance is on our car. It's bound to vary differently from car to car and particularly if you've had that system in mind and developed your car to work around it, you're further up the development curve.

"It's not just a case of applying it to our current aerodynamic characteristic, it's then trying to exploit it further after that, so I expect there will be a two-fold thing: we will know instantly - or we know instantly - what it's worth in terms of lap time and we can weigh that up in the cost performance and the effort needed. And then we also need to look at what's the ultimate potential of that device. We've been looking at it for a month or two. Now it's clear we can at least start working for sure, weighing up everything properly."

McLaren technical director Paddy Lowe said one major consideration is that the DDRS has limited use in the race.

"In these days of really very limited capacity - whether that's people or time in wind tunnels - to develop aerodynamics, you do have to carefully select where you put your effort to make the most profit in performance, so this will fall into that camp," Lowe said. "We have to decide how much we can get from it, how it ranks compared to other areas we may work on. It does have the immediate downside that it really is only a qualifying benefit as far as we can see, so immediately it has to earn quite a lot to make that worthwhile."

Meanwhile, Sauber, which has made a strong start to the season, is not likely to throw its resources at the system.

"We're looking into the system to try and assess it fully, to work out the lap time, or qualifying lap time gain, versus costs," chief designer Matt Morris said. "I think at the moment for us it doesn't balance out. We're probably better off spending our money on more conventional lap time."
© ESPN EMEA Ltd.

[MarlboroFA]

From twitter - Gené:

this is his twitter page : http://twitter.com/#!/marc_gene

where does he say that ???

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Maybe this is what the Mugello/Barcelona update looks like?

[Hornet]

Maybe this is what the Mugello/Barcelona update looks like?

IMO, if our blowing the aero on the wheels doesn't work, then this is probably the best path. It sure as hell better than our current acer duct which is not blowing anywhere useful.

Red Bull has shown that Mark Webber using downwash concept is the best way to go.

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

Maybe this is what the Mugello/Barcelona update looks like?

@Crucial.... Hornet's comment got me thinking. At the moment it seems the Ferrari exhaust is probably blowing nowhere, or maybe just on the beam wing where the gush of exhaust gasses has little effect. Given that they are almost on par with McLaren in race pace and the car doesn't seem as nervous as it once did in Melbourne, should we be expecting a major increase in performance from our new exhaust? The current state of the car means that we are running a compromised setup, am i right in thinking that a better exhaust configuration would leave the drivers to choose a more flexible setup?

[Crucial_Xtreme]

@Crucial.... Hornet's comment got me thinking. At the moment it seems the Ferrari exhaust is probably blowing nowhere, or maybe just on the beam wing where the gush of exhaust gasses has little effect. Given that they are almost on par with McLaren in race pace and the car doesn't seem as nervous as it once did in Melbourne, should we be expecting a major increase in performance from our new exhaust? The current state of the car means that we are running a compromised setup, am i right in thinking that a better exhaust configuration would leave the drivers to choose a more flexible setup?

I think it's a little more complicated. I think Mercedes & Lotus are evidence that you don't need to get the exhaust gasses to the floor in order to be successful. That said, the exhaust is only part of the F2012's problems. Fixing the exhaust would probably help performance some for sure but there's still plenty of work to do. It seems that the aerodynamics of the car are just wrong/bad. So yes I think fixing the exhaust would make the car a little better but it needs more.

I think in Mugello we will see a slightly different front nose, new FW, sidepods, exhaust, & new floor package. Unfortunately there's no magic bullet for the F2012, and many things need to be fixed to make the car truly competitive. The good thing in a way is with the car being like it is, it will be easier for us to gain of chunk of laptime than it will be for the leaders to gain a large chunk of laptime. So reastically with the Barcelona updates, we gain ground and get closer. Close enough we don't fight with Williams and perhaps Lotus too. Then by the time we get to Silverstone/Hockenheim we maybe close the gap more, or start working on 2013.

[T van R]

In my opinion exhaust is one of the major part of the problem, but we can't forget F2012 has potential. Reminding you Malaysian GP that McLaren couldn't keep up with Sauber & Sauber couldn't keep up with Ferrari. Alonso was really faster than Perez while the track was wet & interestingly McLaren & Sauber have the same concept of exhaust. Sometimes i think a little change in F2012 would make a big improvement.

[gazoz]

In my opinion exhaust is one of the major part of the problem, but we can't forget F2012 has potential. Reminding you Malaysian GP that McLaren couldn't keep up with Sauber & Sauber couldn't keep up with Ferrari. Alonso was really faster than Perez while the track was wet & interestingly McLaren & Sauber have the same concept of exhaust. Sometimes i think a little change in F2012 would make a big improvement.

interesting quote you may have something there hmmm

[type056]

Ferrari eyes big step forward for Barcelona

Ferrari is looking ahead to Barcelona next month, as the famous Italian team plans to begin putting a difficult start to the 2012 season behind it.

Test driver Marc Gene, who is travelling to the grands prix this year, said the F2012 was “born well” but fell behind the other leading teams as the winter pre-season progressed.

“From here it will take time to improve it,” he told the Spanish newspaper Diario Sport.

“The next big developments will arrive in Barcelona, although at every race the team is making improvements and we know already that the main problem is aerodynamics.

“It’s a car that also has its virtues, as it adapts well to the wet and also warms up the tyres well, but it is a car with a lot of ‘drag’; we need better top speed and traction,” said Gene.

He said, however, that with at least an eight-tenth per lap dry circuit deficit to the ultimate pace, the F2012 is not likely to step to the front of the grid even with a big raft of developments for the Spanish grand prix.

“I have to admit that it (eliminating the entire gap) would be the most dramatic improvement I’ve seen in the 13 years I have been in Formula One.

“(Improvement) throughout the season is much more feasible. I know that we are working on a very big package and even more positive is that we have the test at Mugello beforehand.”

Gene said the best car in the field at present is the McLaren.

“That is the car that works best if you take together all the different elements. Maybe not the fastest in qualifying, nor in the wet, but today it’s the best car on the grid,” he said.

Fernando Alonso said he is hoping the F2012 becomes “3 or 4 tenths” better at Barcelona.

“All the teams will bring updates,” he is quoted by Finland’s Turun Sanomat, “so if we could improve 5 or 6 tenths, while the others get only a couple of tenths, it will be better for us.”

And Spain’s Marca quotes Felipe Massa as saying: “I do expect a much better car in Spain; faster, better balanced and better traction.”

http://www.f1zone.net/news/ferrari-e...rcelona/13567/

[MarlboroFA]

I think it's a little more complicated. I think Mercedes & Lotus are evidence that you don't need to get the exhaust gasses to the floor in order to be successful. That said, the exhaust is only part of the F2012's problems. Fixing the exhaust would probably help performance some for sure but there's still plenty of work to do. It seems that the aerodynamics of the car are just wrong/bad. So yes I think fixing the exhaust would make the car a little better but it needs more.

But neither the lotus or mercedes have a patch job, our car design is around the exhaust functioning. At least that is what has been said by the team. So with the exhaust functioning like intended they gain more because of a optimal set up instead of a compromise. But with that said, I dont think they will get the acer ducts functioning and are going to redesign them, maybe more like Mclaren has our design is not that different the acer ducts could be transformd into bulges. Altough they did say they wouldn't redesign them.
I guess we just have to wait and see..

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

I think it's a little more complicated. I think Mercedes & Lotus are evidence that you don't need to get the exhaust gasses to the floor in order to be successful. That said, the exhaust is only part of the F2012's problems. Fixing the exhaust would probably help performance some for sure but there's still plenty of work to do. It seems that the aerodynamics of the car are just wrong/bad. So yes I think fixing the exhaust would make the car a little better but it needs more.

I think in Mugello we will see a slightly different front nose, new FW, sidepods, exhaust, & new floor package. Unfortunately there's no magic bullet for the F2012, and many things need to be fixed to make the car truly competitive. The good thing in a way is with the car being like it is, it will be easier for us to gain of chunk of laptime than it will be for the leaders to gain a large chunk of laptime. So reastically with the Barcelona updates, we gain ground and get closer. Close enough we don't fight with Williams and perhaps Lotus too. Then by the time we get to Silverstone/Hockenheim we maybe close the gap more, or start working on 2013.

Thanks for that, Hopefully our questions will be answered in Mugello and Barcelona.

[khizerk]

Ferrari eyes big step forward for Barcelona

Ferrari is looking ahead to Barcelona next month, as the famous Italian team plans to begin putting a difficult start to the 2012 season behind it.

Test driver Marc Gene, who is travelling to the grands prix this year, said the F2012 was “born well” but fell behind the other leading teams as the winter pre-season progressed.

“From here it will take time to improve it,” he told the Spanish newspaper Diario Sport.

“The next big developments will arrive in Barcelona, although at every race the team is making improvements and we know already that the main problem is aerodynamics.

“It’s a car that also has its virtues, as it adapts well to the wet and also warms up the tyres well, but it is a car with a lot of ‘drag’; we need better top speed and traction,” said Gene.

He said, however, that with at least an eight-tenth per lap dry circuit deficit to the ultimate pace, the F2012 is not likely to step to the front of the grid even with a big raft of developments for the Spanish grand prix.

“I have to admit that it (eliminating the entire gap) would be the most dramatic improvement I’ve seen in the 13 years I have been in Formula One.

“(Improvement) throughout the season is much more feasible. I know that we are working on a very big package and even more positive is that we have the test at Mugello beforehand.”

Gene said the best car in the field at present is the McLaren.

“That is the car that works best if you take together all the different elements. Maybe not the fastest in qualifying, nor in the wet, but today it’s the best car on the grid,” he said.

Fernando Alonso said he is hoping the F2012 becomes “3 or 4 tenths” better at Barcelona.

“All the teams will bring updates,” he is quoted by Finland’s Turun Sanomat, “so if we could improve 5 or 6 tenths, while the others get only a couple of tenths, it will be better for us.”

And Spain’s Marca quotes Felipe Massa as saying: “I do expect a much better car in Spain; faster, better balanced and better traction.”

http://www.f1zone.net/news/ferrari-e...rcelona/13567/

So in effect he's saying that Barca updates are not enough and the 2012 season is gone. We get the same direction from Pat Fry who is talking about it will take time...we are talking about changing fundamentals and bla bla bla. Or should we wait till 2014. This is de-moralizing :(

[mark p]

I read Frys comments as we can catch up this year but the operation of the team needs to change so they don't have to scramble to get on terms at the start of every season. With a better design process we can be where we will be soon but at the start of the season but changing this will take time.

[Tifoso]

I read Frys comments as we can catch up this year but the operation of the team needs to change so they don't have to scramble to get on terms at the start of every season. With a better design process we can be where we will be soon but at the start of the season but changing this will take time.

Remember the good old days when we could start the season with LastSeason'sCar B? And still win.

[Tony]

So in effect he's saying that Barca updates are not enough and the 2012 season is gone. We get the same direction from Pat Fry who is talking about it will take time...we are talking about changing fundamentals and bla bla bla. Or should we wait till 2014. This is de-moralizing :(

It just means that it will take more upgrades than just the one in Spain to catch up to the leaders...

[Nova]

Remember the good old days when we could start the season with LastSeason'sCar B? And still win.

lol, sounds like a plan that may have worked.....this year

[Imperatore]

Remember the good old days when we could start the season with LastSeason'sCar B? And still win.

I was just thinking about that, those were the days, now we are always behind and trying to catching up, hope it changes for the better.

[F1NAC]

maybe we will be like in old days on v6 turbo engines

[FrankAlfa]

I think this is all a load of nonsense. The F2012 is a result of Aldo Costa being told to leave and the faith was put into Nicholas Tombazis to be free to design the race car without Aldo Costa resticting him. Well guess what, this Nicolas Tomazis Designed Race car is no where close to being what we were all made to believe it should be. Fry for his credit, is the observing officer that sees that changes must be made to get a handle on these Engineers working unchecked and lacking direction and purpose. Fry's main goal is to evolve the team to work as a unit and not in isolated groups lacking development interaction. There must be some sense of purpose and a goal inmind to attain. I think this is Pat Fry's main goal in the long term but in the short term find speed as quick as they can. The aldo Costa race cars of the past all were evolutionary and that is what the McLaren, Red Bull, Lotus and Mercedes cars are. Ferrari is in their 1st year of a new design and this is the process. Time will tell many things. Is Tombazis'

Ciao.

[gazoz]

I think this is all a load of nonsense. The F2012 is a result of Aldo Costa being told to leave and the faith was put into Nicholas Tombazis to be free to design the race car without Aldo Costa resticting him. Well guess what, this Nicolas Tomazis Designed Race car is no where close to being what we were all made to believe it should be. Fry for his credit, is the observing officer that sees that changes must be made to get a handle on these Engineers working unchecked and lacking direction and purpose. Fry's main goal is to evolve the team to work as a unit and not in isolated groups lacking development interaction. There must be some sense of purpose and a goal inmind to attain. I think this is Pat Fry's main goal in the long term but in the short term find speed as quick as they can. The aldo Costa race cars of the past all were evolutionary and that is what the McLaren, Red Bull, Lotus and Mercedes cars are. Ferrari is in their 1st year of a new design and this is the process. Time will tell many things. Is Tombazis'

Ciao.

i dont necessarily think hey tombazis got it wrong! because for change you need to try new things and sometimes it works and other times not , if you don't try then you will never know its clear that banning testing has hurt them significantly because i believe 80% of these issues would have been resolved had they been able to test at fiorano , but back to there design as you said Frank its a new design so maybe this year they will work out which direction they need for success and having pat fry there putting in new procedures can't be bad also , not sure about aldo if he was responsible for last few years cars but they were very cautiously designed maybe too much

[scuderiafan]

Ferrari eyes big step forward for Barcelona

Ferrari is looking ahead to Barcelona next month, as the famous Italian team plans to begin putting a difficult start to the 2012 season behind it.

Test driver Marc Gene, who is travelling to the grands prix this year, said the F2012 was “born well” but fell behind the other leading teams as the winter pre-season progressed.

“From here it will take time to improve it,” he told the Spanish newspaper Diario Sport.

“The next big developments will arrive in Barcelona, although at every race the team is making improvements and we know already that the main problem is aerodynamics.

“It’s a car that also has its virtues, as it adapts well to the wet and also warms up the tyres well, but it is a car with a lot of ‘drag’; we need better top speed and traction,” said Gene.

He said, however, that with at least an eight-tenth per lap dry circuit deficit to the ultimate pace, the F2012 is not likely to step to the front of the grid even with a big raft of developments for the Spanish grand prix.

“I have to admit that it (eliminating the entire gap) would be the most dramatic improvement I’ve seen in the 13 years I have been in Formula One.

“(Improvement) throughout the season is much more feasible. I know that we are working on a very big package and even more positive is that we have the test at Mugello beforehand.”

Gene said the best car in the field at present is the McLaren.

“That is the car that works best if you take together all the different elements. Maybe not the fastest in qualifying, nor in the wet, but today it’s the best car on the grid,” he said.

Fernando Alonso said he is hoping the F2012 becomes “3 or 4 tenths” better at Barcelona.

“All the teams will bring updates,” he is quoted by Finland’s Turun Sanomat, “so if we could improve 5 or 6 tenths, while the others get only a couple of tenths, it will be better for us.”

And Spain’s Marca quotes Felipe Massa as saying: “I do expect a much better car in Spain; faster, better balanced and better traction.”

http://www.f1zone.net/news/ferrari-e...rcelona/13567/

Here is the original interview in Spanish http://www.sport.es/es/noticias/form...-puras-1670577

[FrankAlfa]

My feeling is they reached way to far and pursued a design that was very questionable. They certainly could have applied the Rear Pull Rod Suspension to the new design and worked on Smaller / Slimmer Sidepod Design and reworked the front Push Rod pickup points to cean front air flow on a design that was much more like the 2010 / 2011 race car. The Front wing is a HUGE Drag factor on this race car and they still are not channeling and extracting the maximum air flow through the front of the race car even with the high flat nose! These are my big issues with the 2012 design and I have not even talked about why they put all their effort into the "Acer Duct" Exhaust design and NOW they find out it does not work well at all to extract air flow from the floor area and feed the rear diffuser??? That my friend is very poor Design, Engineering and Development! They do not even have an alternate design ready in case they had a difficulty with the intended design. Now Four (4) races into the season and they are "trying to understand their race car"??? That is a load of nonsense! They have made a bad design and they are trying to correct all the errors but they have so many! I look at Lotus (Renault) they have made a big step foreward from last year and they worked hard correcting a badly designed race car from last year into a top team again. Look at Mercedes, they have done the same Aldo Costa, Geoff Willis and Bob Bell are the key people to help the existing team of Engineers! This could have been Ferrari this year, instead Ferrari is far from the front and they have a huge task to get out of the hole they have created for THEMSELVES! This was a needless position they have put themselves in. They should have used last years car as a very good base to develop this year's race car. The rear could have been swithced to Pull Rod design and they could have concentrated on downforce and reducing drag on the entire race car! That is exactly what they lack with this latest design! They could have clawed back from the 1 second down amount and advance to take a .5 second advantage! I do not like the direction of the F2012 race car and major problems they are trying fix now that the season has started. We can talk all we want about the lack of testing but ALL of the teams endure the same criteria! You have to apply your development time and effort wisely to get the most bang for the buck and Ferrari seems to have wasted both time and huge amounts of money by lacking both rhyme and reason for what they have created. This team does not look capable of producing the very best product year in and year out. They are missing a STRONG GUIDING HAND of some one who knows what they are doing and knows what goals must be met. Dominicalli should be gone and someone like Chip Ganassi brought in immediately to whip the Engineering Staff and the race car into shape!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[gazoz]

My feeling is they reached way to far and pursued a design that was very questionable. They certainly could have applied the Rear Pull Rod Suspension to the new design and worked on Smaller / Slimmer Sidepod Design and reworked the front Push Rod pickup points to cean front air flow on a design that was much more like the 2010 / 2011 race car. The Front wing is a HUGE Drag factor on this race car and they still are not channeling and extracting the maximum air flow through the front of the race car even with the high flat nose! These are my big issues with the 2012 design and I have not even talked about why they put all their effort into the "Acer Duct" Exhaust design and NOW they find out it does not work well at all to extract air flow from the floor area and feed the rear diffuser??? That my friend is very poor Design, Engineering and Development! They do not even have an alternate design ready in case they had a difficulty with the intended design. Now Four (4) races into the season and they are "trying to understand their race car"??? That is a load of nonsense! They have made a bad design and they are trying to correct all the errors but they have so many! I look at Lotus (Renault) they have made a big step foreward from last year and they worked hard correcting a badly designed race car from last year into a top team again. Look at Mercedes, they have done the same Aldo Costa, Geoff Willis and Bob Bell are the key people to help the existing team of Engineers! This could have been Ferrari this year, instead Ferrari is far from the front and they have a huge task to get out of the hole they have created for THEMSELVES! This was a needless position they have put themselves in. They should have used last years car as a very good base to develop this year's race car. The rear could have been swithced to Pull Rod design and they could have concentrated on downforce and reducing drag on the entire race car! That is exactly what they lack with this latest design! They could have clawed back from the 1 second down amount and advance to take a .5 second advantage! I do not like the direction of the F2012 race car and major problems they are trying fix now that the season has started. We can talk all we want about the lack of testing but ALL of the teams endure the same criteria! You have to apply your development time and effort wisely to get the most bang for the buck and Ferrari seems to have wasted both time and huge amounts of money by lacking both rhyme and reason for what they have created. This team does not look capable of producing the very best product year in and year out. They are missing a STRONG GUIDING HAND of some one who knows what they are doing and knows what goals must be met. Dominicalli should be gone and someone like Chip Ganassi brought in immediately to whip the Engineering Staff and the race car into shape!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

i agree they shouldn't be in this position, but also in this position you need calm and patience, as for SD maybe he is too nice for the job

[Omegablue]

From Virgilio. They're usually spot on.

Ferrari, the jump to quality or the internal cleansing starts.

At Mugello it's expected that Ferrari gains a minimal of 0.5 of a second against it's rivals, regardless if the other teams have made gains of their own.
Side pods are overhauled in designed to change the position of the radiators which has been identified as one of the flaws slowing down the cars.
Pullrod in the front will most likely remain as it's proving to be effective.
Original exhaust design aimed low will be further tested.
Alonso is showing signs of impateince.
Fry's comment of changing design method wasn't digested as it was his responsibility since his appointment.
Ferrari presently in a worse position now than when identifying the scapegoat Costa, who Sunday wouldn't stop laughing.
If 2012 continues as presently, Fry and Tombazis severely risk their positions.

http://sport.virgilio.it/motori/form...repulisti.html