Ferrari F2012 Development News Thread

[Rob]

Seems like Ferrari have a lot of Drag over, through and around those Sidepods. They have clean the internals up of the Sidepods and place everything as low as possible to keep weight as posible to lower the Center of Gravity and to smooth out internal Air Flow of the Race Car.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

I dont think the exhaust housing (ACER ducts) are helping either. As they comparmise the coke bottle effect at rear of car and the air flow around the sidepods.

[Hombre B]

Ferrari F2012 - modified rear wing:

http://www.formula1.com/news/technic...2/867/954.html

Gary Anderson On Ferrari's Woes: BBC F1 2012 - Round 4: Bahrain GP:

[FrankAlfa]

Amazing! Gary Anderson stated EXACTLY what I have been screaming about for a very long time now regarding the Sidepods!

Ferrari has to reduce the height and flatten the shape of the upper portion of the Sidepods to reduce drag and repackage all of the internals of the sidepod to be as low as possible to lower the Center of Gravity. They should lower the nose as well to reduce drag at the front and lower the pickup points of the upper wishbones at the front suspension using the Wishbones themselves as wings to aid front downforce. At the same time they should reduce the mass area of the Front Wing and give me stacked horizontal air foils to load the front but in a way to not obstruct air flow through the center area. As a person with Engieering backgorund, I find it frustrating that Ferrari have created such problematic race car with so many bace Engineering errors! NO EXCUSE FOR THIS VERY POOR DESIGN AT ALL!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[croALOfanclub]

Amazing! Gary Anderson stated EXACTLY what I have been screaming about for a very long time now regarding the Sidepods!

Ferrari has to reduce the height and flatten the shape of the upper portion of the Sidepods to reduce drag and repackage all of the internals of the sidepod to be as low as possible to lower the Center of Gravity. They should lower the nose as well to reduce drag at the front and lower the pickup points of the upper wishbones at the front suspension using the Wishbones themselves as wings to aid front downforce. At the same time they should reduce the mass area of the Front Wing and give me stacked horizontal air foils to load the front but in a way to not obstruct air flow through the center area. As a person with Engieering backgorund, I find it frustrating that Ferrari have created such problematic race car with so many bace Engineering errors! NO EXCUSE FOR THIS VERY POOR DESIGN AT ALL!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

first of all during winter presentations you said that other cars including RB8&MP4-27 look undeveloped compared to F2012 and second during last Q&A session whit fans on official Twitter acount Ferrari has confirmed no changes inside sidepods(radiators....) the changes will be aerodynamic they have repeated several times plus exhaust changes so we can expect new floor,diffusor,rear w,front w,brake ducts,exhaust and maybe software changes to suspension!

edit: they also confirmed that there will be no changes to front or rear suspension geometry and no Merc. style stalling device in next races

[FrankAlfa]

The concept of the Race Car is advanced and it could be a very good design but the Execution and the intergration of the parts and pieces working in unison is poor. the Design concept can reach further than other teams but they have many issue on how the desiign functions! It is all about Air Flow and how to best use the Air Mass in and around the race car! currently Ferrari are doing a poor job in USING that Air Mass! In the end, I see is difficult to redesign a modern F1 car because all of the bodywork and chassis design contributes to structural integrity of the crash worthiness of the Race Car. Lastly, I don't care to believe what Ferrari "Officially" states on "Twitter" or any other site. Nothing is to be believed and with the Race Car being so slow, I hardly believe they will not look at EVERY ASPECT of the race car to alter, change and improve. It would be foolish to believe that Ferrari will keep their hands off any part of the Race Car at this point! EVERY PART OF THE RACE CAR MUST IMPROVE! THAT INCLUDES THE INTERNALS OF THE SIDEPDS AND THE ENTIRE EXHAUST ASSEMBLY (ACER DUCTS).

CIAO.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[FrankAlfa]

Just because Red Bull & McLaren are leading the charge at the moment that doesn't mean their respective designs are "More Advanced", it is just merely that no one else has perfected their design yet to be a challenge them. We are seeing a carry over from last year. the Red Bull is the same as last year's design except it does not have the EBD. McLaren is in the same boat! Same as last year but have an effective exhaust channeling of gases to the Rear Diffuser. We are seeing only Mercedes come up with a new, truly advanced design DDRS and that my friend is what is challenging last year's leading teams! Lotus / Renault has done a great job of improving last years difficult design as well. With the ban on the EBD, any teams : Sauber, Williams, Toro Rosso, Etc. are much closer to the front and most of these design for 2012 are "Improved" & "Developed" designs from last years car. Ferrari on the other hand has scrapped last year's car which like all of the designs being run now, was 3 year developed design from 2009!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[croALOfanclub]

The concept of the Race Car is advanced and it could be a very good design but the Execution and the intergration of the parts and pieces working in unison is poor. the Design concept can reach further than other teams but they have many issue on how the desiign functions! It is all about Air Flow and how to best use the Air Mass in and around the race car! currently Ferrari are doing a poor job in USING that Air Mass! In the end, I see is difficult to redesign a modern F1 car because all of the bodywork and chassis design contributes to structural integrity of the crash worthiness of the Race Car. Lastly, I don't care to believe what Ferrari "Officially" states on "Twitter" or any other site. Nothing is to be believed and with the Race Car being so slow, I hardly believe they will not look at EVERY ASPECT of the race car to alter, change and improve. It would be foolish to believe that Ferrari will keep their hands off any part of the Race Car at this point! EVERY PART OF THE RACE CAR MUST IMPROVE! THAT INCLUDES THE INTERNALS OF THE SIDEPDS AND THE ENTIRE EXHAUST ASSEMBLY (ACER DUCTS).

CIAO.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

In Mugello they will try original exhaust(modified) vs RB/McL style if it works they will build on that i think!

[sagi58]

So, basically, the sum of the parts is greater than the whole; we just haven't added them up right, YET!!
But, we will!! We will!!

[FrankAlfa]

@ sagi58,

Yes, I hope so.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[Dino]

Gary Anderson On Ferrari's Woes;
What Anderson meant is that the shape on top of the sidepods was working against the downforce.He might have a point but i am sure Ferrari have spent a lot of hours to come up with that.There must be something else Anderson is not seeing.
Tombasis scale model in the Windtunnel must have surely shown the contrary.

This is what he means;
lift.gif

[FrankAlfa]

Shape = Lift. Tombazis's Scale Model of the F2012 certainly has NOT found MANY problems that are being found now! I see no excuse for all these short comings and errors in this design. At this point, we can't assume anything that Tombazis's Scale Model proved to be contrary to our quick observations. Physics do not change no matter what the year, time or place. I question the entire Ferrari Engineering Staff that laid out this design and I question why they did not see these fundemantal errors???

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[mark p]

Aero issues are nothing you can see otherwise we would scrap cfd, windtunnels etc and look at pictures of the car. If the issue is what Anderson says then surely they always knew but their was a big net gain to the shape if exhausts worked, it's just when you have to reposition them the only thing that comes out is the downside.

[Kiwi Nick]

No offense intended Frank, after all this is not the first forum upon which you and I have traded views, but if a guy from Port Chester can take one look at the F2012 and see what is wrong, then the guys in Marinello must be a bunch of monkeys. It could just very well be that the core design of the chassis will not allow the kind of modification required to be a winning car. Sometimes all the tweeking in the world is not enough. It's like lipstick on a pig, a push up bra and glass slippers won't make her Cinderella. As I said on another thread, this could be Ferrari's MP4-18.

Cheers,
A Guy From Westport!

[Dino]

Shape = Lift. Tombazis's Scale Model of the F2012 certainly has NOT found MANY problems that are being found now! I see no excuse for all these short comings and errors in this design. At this point, we can't assume anything that Tombazis's Scale Model proved to be contrary to our quick observations. Physics do not change no matter what the year, time or place. I question the entire Ferrari Engineering Staff that laid out this design and I question why they did not see these fundemantal errors???

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

I will not believe Ferrari can get mixed up in the very basics of aerodynamics even without their wind tunnel and Toyota's windtunnel!!
The 2010 Ferrari was a very good car.
Last year's car was'nt so bad especially without the EBD.Yet the top of the side pod resembles this year's car...
Look at the side view of the 2010,2011 and 2012 Ferraris

Difference between F1 2010, 2011 and 2012 ferrari.jpg

[FrankAlfa]

Well at first glance they look the same, right? Look closer and understand the interacion of the lower portion of the Sidepod and the curved upper shape of the sidepod. The design in prior years show a much different interaction between to lower portion of the Sidepod and the top surface of the Sidepod. Now look at the Red Bull and the McLaren profiles. different shapes cause different results.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!

[Corey]

Something I've always wanted to ask was, what happened to that Shark Fin engine cover? Surely it was one beneficial piece that we've been using a lot. We even had it on all season in 2010, showing that it's worthwhile to have no matter what track you are on. Was this just simply banned?

[arcabe]

even the Redbull is copying Sauber's exhaust lay-out and is improving, is Ferrari going that way?

http://www.formula1.com/news/technic...2/867/957.html

[Hornet]

Gary Anderson On Ferrari's Woes;
What Anderson meant is that the shape on top of the sidepods was working against the downforce.He might have a point but i am sure Ferrari have spent a lot of hours to come up with that.There must be something else Anderson is not seeing.
Tombasis scale model in the Windtunnel must have surely shown the contrary.

This is what he means;
lift.gif

Umm... I'm no expert, but I think some basic logic will tell us that the air speed below the car will always be faster due to the small gap between the road surface and the floor. Add that to the diffuser which function is to further accelerate the air flowing below the car, no matter how they design the car body, it can never accelerate the air faster than that below the car.

Comparing it to an aeroplane's wing would be silly as the wing doesn't have a small space below the wing to pinch the air flowing through.

[Nova]

Anderson's point appears to be that the sidepod is causing unnecessary drag..something we do not need. Wouldnt that
sidepod, creating drag, negate any benefits gained by the underbody design? Its as if the 2 concepts are working against each other.

N we still lack mechanical grip. And top speed, n grip, n aero. n on n on.

N Im no expert either, but as I mentioned b4, the way that chassis misbehaves, loses it w/out warning, cannot be setup
properly..there is something incorrect about it.

[T van R]

In my opinion the problem is not poor design. The problem is being innovative in some key areas with lack of testing. Nicholas Tombazis was chief designer in F10 & F150 project & now as usual he is the chief designer of F2012. Being innovative in designing the car while the tests are not enough is a little bit risky as we see in this season.

[number 13]

In my opinion the problem is not poor design. The problem is being innovative in some key areas with lack of testing. Nicholas Tombazis was chief designer in F60 & F150 project & now as usual he is the chief designer of F2012. Being innovative in designing the car while the tests are not enough is a little bit risky as we see in this season.

Totally agreed.I also think that sacking people is not a solution,what ( i think ) we really need is some more key aero people to help with the desing of our car.Anyway all we can do is hope, have trust and faith in our team.They surely know tons of stuff better than we all do.In the end they are experts in their jobs that's why they are there.

[Hornet]

Scarbs have a good article on Red Bull's sidepod changes including the new design introduced in Bahrain. Could this explain their better performance in qualifying?

http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2012/0...epod-analysis/

Basically Red Bull is going back to the old idea of sealing the diffuser. This is obviously not what Ferrari had in mind with the acer duct design. But if it proves to be the way to go, then I'm afraid we'll have to follow this design path.

[scuderiafan]

Scarbs have a good article on Red Bull's sidepod changes including the new design introduced in Bahrain. Could this explain their better performance in qualifying?

http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2012/0...epod-analysis/

Basically Red Bull is going back to the old idea of sealing the diffuser. This is obviously not what Ferrari had in mind with the acer duct design. But if it proves to be the way to go, then I'm afraid we'll have to follow this design path.

I thought they had stopped doing that when they stopped using their tunnel on the floor?
But then I don't know how the gases would affect the parts.

[Hornet]

I thought they had stopped doing that when they stopped using their tunnel on the floor?
But then I don't know how the gases would affect the parts.

From my understanding, the exhaust was to go between the wheel and the diffuser gap to seal the diffuser while the tunnel is to allow the sidepod flow to go to the diffuser instead.

But now, they close of the tunnel, sacrificing the sidepod air to the diffuser, but from this part, it seems to suggest that both the airflow and exhaust gas now gets channel into that wheel-diffuser gap.

With the tunnel closed off the issues complicating the exhaust and starter motor hole flow have been cleared up. But there still remains an issue with how the sidepod undercut flow reaches the rest of the diffuser. Sauber appear to manage this, but there still may be some potential airflow performance that is lost with this set up. Although the overall effect of an exhaust aimed accurately at the tyre\diffuser gap may be a greater gain that that loss.

They haven't solve the issue of airflow going to the diffuser, but they are still using that effect that seals the side of the diffuser.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

A small update at Bahrain, Ferrari now have a slot ahead of the rear tyre like Sauber & RB.

[Rob]

^ thought i saw that in the race, cheers for that picture. Was going too post asking if anyone saw it or had picture of it.

[Hornet]

Thanks for the picture. Maybe a hint that Ferrari is preparing to follow Sauber/ Red Bull exhaust design instead of the acer duct?

[Greig]

[Ophidian786]

even the Redbull is copying Sauber's exhaust lay-out and is improving, is Ferrari going that way?

http://www.formula1.com/news/technic...2/867/957.html

Thanks for this.

Sauber with good drivers could be doing extremely well this year.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Here's a better look at the slots ahead of the rear tyre