Ferrari F2012 Development News Thread

[FerrariF60]

No DDRS, no pole.

YUP, simple as that...that red cow is gonna take POLE again...what a big disappointment again

[anialonso]

I thought Ferrari would bring updates which would improve their traction out off slow corners which will be vital at AbuDhabi..
hope they bring such updates along with the rear wing cause less wheel spin would mean the tires will not wear not faster....

[kurski]

Agreed...Ferrari needs Pat Symonds....

I agree, and Ferrari's management must be able to attract Pat Symonds next season Maranello.

[medeni73]

Twitter:


Source: http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/f...d-5998166.html

They basically say that (if all true) there is no time to incorporate such design like RB has...but they are making new RW that should get better quali time for the team...
Problem: when in DRS-Position our RW still generates too much drag and downforce "Supposedly only two points. That is almost one percent. For the other teams in the top-speed gain is significantly higher when the rear wing flap is folded up."
"The training is a real handicap. On the Buddh International Circuit on 55 percent of the lap was driven in DRS position. In the race the wing can only overtaking and depending on the track at one or two places are open. Then is Ferraris disadvantage negligible. Therefore, the F2012 has two faces. A training and a race face."
"To build a wing that in DRS position reduces much air resistance is no big deal. But the shot can backfire. Who interprets the wing too extreme gets another problem which costs even more lap time. The air flow not immediately back after DRS-shut. Then when braking lacks downforce. The confusion among pilots."

"Ferrari is working flat out on a rear wing that can do both. Hence the aero test the week before last in Idiada. "I hope we get him back yet," team boss Domenicali prays for use at the GP of Abu Dhabi. A double-DRS as Red Bull Ferrari is no longer used. For this, the time is too short."

[stefa]

If pole is not possible, and how the things are looking now it is not, as I said earlier I think that we are into good race if we start from 2nd, 3rd or lowest 4th grid position.

[Tifoso84]

I'm hoping that we could get 1-2 in quali, but realistically speaking I'm afraid the best starting position we can hope for is 3rd for Alonso.
As was stated before: "No DDRS, no pole." But if we really could get 3rd position on the grid then that wouldn't be bad at all. Anything could happen from there.

[Nova]

I think they should put the turbo's on now..that may help.

[PURE PASSION]

They basically say that (if all true) there is no time to incorporate such design like RB has...but they are making new RW that should get better quali time for the team...
Problem: when in DRS-Position our RW still generates too much drag and downforce "Supposedly only two points. That is almost one percent. For the other teams in the top-speed gain is significantly higher when the rear wing flap is folded up."
"The training is a real handicap. On the Buddh International Circuit on 55 percent of the lap was driven in DRS position. In the race the wing can only overtaking and depending on the track at one or two places are open. Then is Ferraris disadvantage negligible. Therefore, the F2012 has two faces. A training and a race face."
"To build a wing that in DRS position reduces much air resistance is no big deal. But the shot can backfire. Who interprets the wing too extreme gets another problem which costs even more lap time. The air flow not immediately back after DRS-shut. Then when braking lacks downforce. The confusion among pilots."

"Ferrari is working flat out on a rear wing that can do both. Hence the aero test the week before last in Idiada. "I hope we get him back yet," team boss Domenicali prays for use at the GP of Abu Dhabi. A double-DRS as Red Bull Ferrari is no longer used. For this, the time is too short."

Actually i find it quite interesting!!
As they say this might be our problem to qualify in front and for talking about it now they probably solve it!!
So fingers cross we might see a different Saturday for us!!

[mugdoc]

No double-DRS at Ferrari

Ferrari is working flat out on a rear wing that can do both. Hence the aero test the week before last in Idiada. "I hope we get him back yet," team boss Domenicali prays for use at the GP of Abu Dhabi. A double-DRS as Red Bull Ferrari is no longer used. For this, the time is too short.

The Red Bull solution is the egg of Columbus. Is dispensed on the top of a high windage and has taken a stable wing. What looks herschenkt above, are brought out below the so-called Beamwing directly above the diffuser by blowing air across back to the side.

from : http://t.co/D3cpaMWa

[anialonso]

Even if we qualify on the front row along with Seb..i still think he has the pace to pull away from us cause they have better rear aero package that reduces wheelspin and improves traction..

[Forzafonz]

Even if we qualify on the front row along with Seb..i still think he has the pace to pull away from us cause they have better rear aero package that reduces wheelspin and improves traction..

I don't agree with you. Because at first i don't expect that we can get first row, as we won't bring to Abu Dhabi any part which could us to get big improve our qualify pace. And the second reason why i disagree with you, our pace in India last weekend. Ferrari had really good pace laste race on soft, and less good on hard, but it anyway seemed compitantive to RB.
I expect ( If of course any miracle won't happen next weekend), that in qulify we will be in the second row in the best case, but in race we probably gain even first place ( but more realistic will be second place after finger boy).
And also i think, if we nevertheless will be in the first row, we have to win this race..But 'tis only my opinion of course)

[Hombre B]

- Ferrari will have a new rear wing in Abu Dhabi

Source: http://i45.tinypic.com/2i9qf43.png

[anialonso]

Source: http://i45.tinypic.com/2i9qf43.png

only rear wing..or other updates will also be there???

[anialonso]

I don't agree with you. Because at first i don't expect that we can get first row, as we won't bring to Abu Dhabi any part which could us to get big improve our qualify pace. And the second reason why i disagree with you, our pace in India last weekend. Ferrari had really good pace laste race on soft, and less good on hard, but it anyway seemed compitantive to RB.
I expect ( If of course any miracle won't happen next weekend), that in qulify we will be in the second row in the best case, but in race we probably gain even first place ( but more realistic will be second place after finger boy).
And also i think, if we nevertheless will be in the first row, we have to win this race..But 'tis only my opinion of course)

I dont think Ferrari can match Resbull on racepace..
On Lap 4 Alonso overtook Button and was in clear Air Afterward at that point Alonso was 6.3sec down on Vettel...
On Lap 30 when Alonso pitted he was about 12sec behind Vettel..
so in 26 laps Alonso lost 6 sec.
so thats roughly 0.2-0.3sec per lap..

[Hombre B]

only rear wing..or other updates will also be there???

The article mentioned only this, but we will see. The front wing didn't change.

[mugdoc]

Ferrari working hard to improve F2012 DRS for qualifying


Ferrari is focused on improving the rear wing and DRS system of its 2012 car, as Fernando Alonso pushes to rescue his dwindling championship challenge to Red Bull’s Sebastian Vettel.

Germany’s Auto Motor und Sport said that the Italian team has acknowledged that while Red Bull is not far ahead in terms of race pace, the F2012 is struggling primarily in qualifying.

“The problem is the rear wing,” read the report. “In the DRS position it is generating too little top speed.”

Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo is quoted by Italy’s La Stampa: “If we always start from the third or fourth row, then everything becomes difficult, if not impossible.

“How do you recover if you are already ten seconds behind after five laps?” he asked rhetorically.

An analysis shows that Alonso was gaining less than a 4km/h boost from his conventional DRS on the straights in India, compared to almost 10km/h for Vettel.

But AM&S reckons that Ferrari has run out of time to introduce a Red Bull-like ‘double DRS’.

The team’s technical boss Pat Fry is quoted by La Gazzetta dello Sport: “We are working like crazy to bring improvements to Abu Dhabi and then all the way to Brazil.

“Starting higher up means we can put pressure on the Red Bulls. So far Sebastian [Vettel] has been driving away too easily.”

[F1NAC]

Ferrari working hard to improve F2012 DRS for qualifying


Ferrari is focused on improving the rear wing and DRS system of its 2012 car, as Fernando Alonso pushes to rescue his dwindling championship challenge to Red Bull’s Sebastian Vettel.

Germany’s Auto Motor und Sport said that the Italian team has acknowledged that while Red Bull is not far ahead in terms of race pace, the F2012 is struggling primarily in qualifying.

“The problem is the rear wing,” read the report. “In the DRS position it is generating too little top speed.”

Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo is quoted by Italy’s La Stampa: “If we always start from the third or fourth row, then everything becomes difficult, if not impossible.

“How do you recover if you are already ten seconds behind after five laps?” he asked rhetorically.

An analysis shows that Alonso was gaining less than a 4km/h boost from his conventional DRS on the straights in India, compared to almost 10km/h for Vettel.

But AM&S reckons that Ferrari has run out of time to introduce a Red Bull-like ‘double DRS’.

The team’s technical boss Pat Fry is quoted by La Gazzetta dello Sport: “We are working like crazy to bring improvements to Abu Dhabi and then all the way to Brazil.

“Starting higher up means we can put pressure on the Red Bulls. So far Sebastian [Vettel] has been driving away too easily.”

ye our DRS is weak point . I don't know if you remeber but in silverstone Alonso overtook Hamilton with DRS and Hamilton did overtook again Alonso who had DRS open

[Rosso Corsa]

I can't get my head around that. It seems backwards to what we see on the track. Even if the performance gain we get from our DRS is only 4kmph (no idea who/how analysed that), we're smashing the speed traps, consistently better than Red Bull and Mclaren, which implies that our car is very slippery with and without DRS. It's surely downforce that we're struggling to find, as it's in the twisty sections where we lose out to Red Bull. We have such a good overhead of top speed in fact, that we could trade some of that off in exchange for a more aggressive rear wing downforce setting to improve traction in corners, but we don't do that, which to me implies that we can't. So, instead we play the car to it's strengths, which is it's top speed, limiting the damage the red bulls make in the twisty stuff. So I don't think DRS is the problem.

The Red Bulls low fuel performance is what sets it apart in qualifying. Vettel drives the corners like it's a playstation game with all aids set to 'On'. That's where he's making the time, not when he's using DRS. His DRS just reduces the damage caused by Ferrari's more efficient slipperyness/top speed. As others have said, surely it's traction during and out of corners that would be a very big benefit to us, especially if we could maintain some of our top speed, but even sacrificing a few kmph could work if the in-corner benefits are greater. A new rear wing will hopefully give us that, and Ferrari have tried a few different rear wings now so it's most likely an area we're still pushing on. But I don't think it's the rear wings DRS function which is the priority problem.

I'm probably missing something, but the DRS doesn't seem like the problem to me.

[stefa]

It would be great if FA could start all remaining races from pole and to gain like 0,5 sec of his closest rival. Unfortunately that is not going to happed. No point crying over spoiled milk. So, what Ferrari needs to do is to improve qualifying form of F2012 as much as possible to be as closes as possible to SV on the starting grid. Starting 2nd or 3rd will be just fine for FA. From there anything is possible.
Cant wait for Sunday...

[stefa]

I can't get my head around that. It seems backwards to what we see on the track. Even if the performance gain we get from our DRS is only 4kmph (no idea who/how analysed that), we're smashing the speed traps, consistently better than Red Bull and Mclaren, which implies that our car is very slippery with and without DRS. It's surely downforce that we're struggling to find, as it's in the twisty sections where we lose out to Red Bull. We have such a good overhead of top speed in fact, that we could trade some of that off in exchange for a more aggressive rear wing downforce setting to improve traction in corners, but we don't do that, which to me implies that we can't. So, instead we play the car to it's strengths, which is it's top speed, limiting the damage the red bulls make in the twisty stuff. So I don't think DRS is the problem.

The Red Bulls low fuel performance is what sets it apart in qualifying. Vettel drives the corners like it's a playstation game with all aids set to 'On'. That's where he's making the time, not when he's using DRS. His DRS just reduces the damage caused by Ferrari's more efficient slipperyness/top speed. As others have said, surely it's traction during and out of corners that would be a very big benefit to us, especially if we could maintain some of our top speed, but even sacrificing a few kmph could work if the in-corner benefits are greater. A new rear wing will hopefully give us that, and Ferrari have tried a few different rear wings now so it's most likely an area we're still pushing on. But I don't think it's the rear wings DRS function which is the priority problem.

I'm probably missing something, but the DRS doesn't seem like the problem to me.

Interesting thoughts...

[anialonso]

I can't get my head around that. It seems backwards to what we see on the track. Even if the performance gain we get from our DRS is only 4kmph (no idea who/how analysed that), we're smashing the speed traps, consistently better than Red Bull and Mclaren, which implies that our car is very slippery with and without DRS. It's surely downforce that we're struggling to find, as it's in the twisty sections where we lose out to Red Bull. We have such a good overhead of top speed in fact, that we could trade some of that off in exchange for a more aggressive rear wing downforce setting to improve traction in corners, but we don't do that, which to me implies that we can't. So, instead we play the car to it's strengths, which is it's top speed, limiting the damage the red bulls make in the twisty stuff. So I don't think DRS is the problem.

The Red Bulls low fuel performance is what sets it apart in qualifying. Vettel drives the corners like it's a playstation game with all aids set to 'On'. That's where he's making the time, not when he's using DRS. His DRS just reduces the damage caused by Ferrari's more efficient slipperyness/top speed. As others have said, surely it's traction during and out of corners that would be a very big benefit to us, especially if we could maintain some of our top speed, but even sacrificing a few kmph could work if the in-corner benefits are greater. A new rear wing will hopefully give us that, and Ferrari have tried a few different rear wings now so it's most likely an area we're still pushing on. But I don't think it's the rear wings DRS function which is the priority problem.

I'm probably missing something, but the DRS doesn't seem like the problem to me.

I too agree with you..
What Ferrari really need to do is improve the downforce to keep the car more stable..
but in the end Ferrari know better so lets hope what they do is for the best..

[Hombre B]

Loic Bigois starts at Ferrari

GoCar understands that Loic Bigois is a member of Ferrari as of today. The reports that emerged after his split with Mercedes GP last summer in Autosprint and Auto Hebdo came true.

His contract with the Mercedes GP team expired yesterday and Bigois is understood to have started his new job at Maranello. His title will be most probably Head of Aerodynamics, although we don’t have a confirmation from the team as yet.

Bigois started his F1 career back in 1990 as head of the design office at Ligier. From here on he passed through Sauber andLigier/Prost before becoming deputy technical director at Prost F1 Team in 2000.

In 2004 he joined Williams and he became chief aerodynamicist in 2007. Thereafter he went to Honda from 2007 and he kept his role as chief aerodynamicist until June 2012. His role at Mercedes GP was taken over by Mike Elliot.

The role of the Head of aerodynamics at Ferrari has been the focus of attention over couple of years, with John Iley and then Marco de Luca holding the post. John Iley left for McLaren and later to Caterham, while Marco de Luca was sidelined to work on GT cars.

Tombazis held the role as Head of Aerodynamics and Chief Designer until now. So he will focus solely on his work as Chief Designer from now on.

http://www.gocar.gr/races/f1/8684,Lo...t_Ferrari.html

[Ken]

Interesting if it gets confirmed by some one in Ferrari.

If it is confirmed hopefully we can get that edge we need in the aero department

[diesel08]

I can't get my head around that. It seems backwards to what we see on the track. Even if the performance gain we get from our DRS is only 4kmph (no idea who/how analysed that), we're smashing the speed traps, consistently better than Red Bull and Mclaren, which implies that our car is very slippery with and without DRS. It's surely downforce that we're struggling to find, as it's in the twisty sections where we lose out to Red Bull. We have such a good overhead of top speed in fact, that we could trade some of that off in exchange for a more aggressive rear wing downforce setting to improve traction in corners, but we don't do that, which to me implies that we can't. So, instead we play the car to it's strengths, which is it's top speed, limiting the damage the red bulls make in the twisty stuff. So I don't think DRS is the problem.

The Red Bulls low fuel performance is what sets it apart in qualifying. Vettel drives the corners like it's a playstation game with all aids set to 'On'. That's where he's making the time, not when he's using DRS. His DRS just reduces the damage caused by Ferrari's more efficient slipperyness/top speed. As others have said, surely it's traction during and out of corners that would be a very big benefit to us, especially if we could maintain some of our top speed, but even sacrificing a few kmph could work if the in-corner benefits are greater. A new rear wing will hopefully give us that, and Ferrari have tried a few different rear wings now so it's most likely an area we're still pushing on. But I don't think it's the rear wings DRS function which is the priority problem.

I'm probably missing something, but the DRS doesn't seem like the problem to me.

Bravissimo, you are right!We only hope is reliability problem on RBR machine.

[FA fan]

I can't get my head around that. It seems backwards to what we see on the track. Even if the performance gain we get from our DRS is only 4kmph (no idea who/how analysed that), we're smashing the speed traps, consistently better than Red Bull and Mclaren, which implies that our car is very slippery with and without DRS. It's surely downforce that we're struggling to find, as it's in the twisty sections where we lose out to Red Bull. We have such a good overhead of top speed in fact, that we could trade some of that off in exchange for a more aggressive rear wing downforce setting to improve traction in corners, but we don't do that, which to me implies that we can't. So, instead we play the car to it's strengths, which is it's top speed, limiting the damage the red bulls make in the twisty stuff. So I don't think DRS is the problem. J
The Red Bulls low fuel performance is what sets it apart in qualifying. Vettel drives the corners like it's a playstation game with all aids set to 'On'. That's where he's making the time, not when he's using DRS. His DRS just reduces the damage caused by Ferrari's more efficient slipperyness/top speed. As others have said, surely it's traction during and out of corners that would be a very big benefit to us, especially if we could maintain some of our top speed, but even sacrificing a few kmph could work if the in-corner benefits are greater. A new rear wing will hopefully give us that, and

Ferrari have tried a few different rear wings now so it's most likely an area we're still pushing on. But I don't think it's the rear wings DRS function which is the priority problem.

I'm probably missing something, but the DRS doesn't seem like the problem to me.

Well what you said does make sense,if you notice Ferrari had a problem with top speed comparing to the rest,but I suppose cuz of circumstances in the race,and red bull struggling for quail ther were doing fine,now with the top speed better than the rest,and red bull improving tremendously on quail that Ferrari has been exposed,but you are right,if it was that easy to sacrifice a bit of top speed to get better traction and downforce they would have done it already!! But they are probably trying flat out,cuz time is running out,plus I think before Suzuka they thought Alonso could manage the gap,so they thought just maybe, they have enough time to catch up! Not the case now!!

[cokata]

I can't get my head around that. It seems backwards to what we see on the track. Even if the performance gain we get from our DRS is only 4kmph (no idea who/how analysed that), we're smashing the speed traps, consistently better than Red Bull and Mclaren, which implies that our car is very slippery with and without DRS. It's surely downforce that we're struggling to find, as it's in the twisty sections where we lose out to Red Bull. We have such a good overhead of top speed in fact, that we could trade some of that off in exchange for a more aggressive rear wing downforce setting to improve traction in corners, but we don't do that, which to me implies that we can't. So, instead we play the car to it's strengths, which is it's top speed, limiting the damage the red bulls make in the twisty stuff. So I don't think DRS is the problem.


The Red Bulls low fuel performance is what sets it apart in qualifying. Vettel drives the corners like it's a playstation game with all aids set to 'On'. That's where he's making the time, not when he's using DRS. His DRS just reduces the damage caused by Ferrari's more efficient slipperyness/top speed. As others have said, surely it's traction during and out of corners that would be a very big benefit to us, especially if we could maintain some of our top speed, but even sacrificing a few kmph could work if the in-corner benefits are greater. A new rear wing will hopefully give us that, and Ferrari have tried a few different rear wings now so it's most likely an area we're still pushing on. But I don't think it's the rear wings DRS function which is the priority problem.

I'm probably missing something, but the DRS doesn't seem like the problem to me.

you are forgetting that the most important factor is how long 7th gear is.red bull always go for a short 7th gear so they can be faster in the race.we used a set up with longer gear for faster qualy but compromising race pace.what this means is that we may be very good on the speed trap the red bull was faster until it hit the rev limit

[Retroblue]

you are forgetting that the most important factor is how long 7th gear is.red bull always go for a short 7th gear so they can be faster in the race.we used a set up with longer gear for faster qualy but compromising race pace.what this means is that we may be very good on the speed trap the red bull was faster until it hit the rev limit

Yep! You are right coz that is where we are compromising on our acceleration from the corners

[Rosso Corsa]

you are forgetting that the most important factor is how long 7th gear is.red bull always go for a short 7th gear so they can be faster in the race.we used a set up with longer gear for faster qualy but compromising race pace.what this means is that we may be very good on the speed trap the red bull was faster until it hit the rev limit

I agree. Red Bull qualify so well, they don't often need to use DRS to overtake other cars. It makes sense for them to shorten 7th gear so that they can almost hit the limiter without DRS open and therefore maximise their race pace. That's not the case for us though. Because we don't qualify on the front row, we need that longer 7th gear and DRS to overtake. Having a longer 7th doesn't help in qualifying on most circuits, as we'll only red line with DRS open on just one straight usually.

The articles above suggest that our DRS is inferior. That's the only point I was trying to make really, as regardless of gear ratio, our DRS seems to be okay. Seems to be. Maybe it's not very good at all, I dunno.

[tifosi_kaka]

I agree. Red Bull qualify so well, they don't often need to use DRS to overtake other cars. It makes sense for them to shorten 7th gear so that they can almost hit the limiter without DRS open and therefore maximise their race pace. That's not the case for us though. Because we don't qualify on the front row, we need that longer 7th gear and DRS to overtake. Having a longer 7th doesn't help in qualifying on most circuits, as we'll only red line with DRS open on just one straight usually.

The articles above suggest that our DRS is inferior. That's the only point I was trying to make really, as regardless of gear ratio, our DRS seems to be okay. Seems to be. Maybe it's not very good at all, I dunno.

Or does it also mean that in order not to lose out in terms of straight-line speed, the team runs a smaller angle at the rear wing, which affects the downforce hence generated?

If DRS is working effectively with 10 kph gain, we can run the rear wing at a deeper angle to increase rear end downforce hence improve cornering performance.

[Rosso Corsa]

Or does it also mean that in order not to lose out in terms of straight-line speed, the team runs a smaller angle at the rear wing, which affects the downforce hence generated?

I don't know if Ferrari would wish to remove downforce if downforce was available, even to reach a higher top speed. Less downforce = less grip = more tyre wear. And then we get into the realms of drag if we run a greater angle on the rear wing. And I don't know what any of this means anymore Whatever updates we bring, I hope we edge a little close to the competition.