Ferrari F2012 Development News Thread

[Tifoso]

You take out Vettel's RedBull (still need to see if that pace will repeat itself in other tracks less suited to RB)
And I can't see any other car that is properly faster than F2012.

Quali needs work, and I think to catch RedBull more work is needed.

But luckily next race is Silverstone, where Ferrari has rolled out a major package the last couple of years, and rumours say they will again.
However so will McLaren, it seems and they will. OT be so bad again there, so I think they will be a lot closer.

But Ferrari should be there in the fight.

I honestly believe that if RB and McMoo can just steal points off each other, and Fernando can be consistent, that we will be hard to beat.

[sav_pap]

in friday practice a few weeks ago alguersuari was talking to the bbc on 5 live and when vettel's car came past him, he seemed really surprised by the engine note. and he actually said, vettels car sounds different to everyone elses at this particular part of the track. im amazed none of the media have picked up on this but its obvious that red bull have some kind of hidden engine blowing/ engine mapping trick up there sleeve...... here we go again!

After the McCheaters here we have the Red Cheaters.

[JONNY F.2008]

i think seb over extended his equipment.
part of a drivers and teams job is to control temps after all.
(tire, brake and engine/gearbox temps)
so if by hurling the car out to a ten second lead he overheated the alternator then the car is not exactly faster.
in my mind he over extended his resources and exposed the weakest link, not the tires this time but another link in the thermal chain that needs to be managed.

[JONNY F.2008]

After the McCheaters here we have the Red Cheaters.

redbolognas?

[kurski]

Alonso and Massa was Valencia GP slightly differently placed mirrors

[Oracle]

I really dont think the F2012 will ever be genuine front runner this season, and this is the level we will always be. Stuck in the Sauber, Williams, sometimes Mclaren pack, a level behind Lotus and Redbull. Our developments like the exhaust are very straight forward, there is no unique vision, just run of the mill really copying everyone else. We will just have to hope Vettel has enough problems because that will be the only way to beat that combination.

[kurski]

Omnicorse reports that Ferrari will conduct an aero test tomorrow at Idiada with Gene onboard.

[number 13]

Omnicorse reports that Ferrari will conduct an aero test tomorrow at Idiada with Gene onboard.

This is great news for us but, how can we test with the F2012 with such testing limitations?

Could somebody explain?

[zike]

Just found this:

A new Adrian Newey-penned floor has debuted on the RB8 this weekend, which according to some sources produces a kind of ‘double diffuser’ effect. And veteran photographer Darren Heath said he heard from his regular trackside vantage point in practice "what sounds like off-throttle blowing" coming from German Vettel’s car.

Then, with the chasing seven drivers all separated by a similar margin, Vettel stunned the paddock late on Saturday by going almost four tenths faster than his nearest qualifying rival, Lewis Hamilton. So with hundredths or thousandths proving decisive among his chasing rivals, is there is a ‘secret’ to Vettel’s several-tenths gap on Saturday? "What is your secret?" Hamilton, agreeing with the questioner, smilingly enquired of his rival after qualifying. "Can’t tell you," the German smiled back. The smiles might not last for long.

Germany’s Bild newspaper said the situation could lead to F1′s "next protest threat against Red Bull". Briton Hamilton is quoted by the newspaper as saying: "You only have to look at his car to know where the big gap comes from." The McLaren driver is expecting to be beaten by the upgraded Red Bull on Sunday. "My boss wouldn’t like me to say this but … my target is to finish where I am," he said.

Williams’ Pastor Maldonado starts third, but many in the paddock consider Romain Grosjean’s Lotus to be Vettel’s real challenger for victory. Asked by Marca newspaper if he could be F1′s eighth different winner of 2012, the Frenchman answered: "I could be! "I will start the race with the desire to win," he confirmed, according to the French-language RMC Sport. "But I think that if Vettel keeps his pace, he is untouchable."

[FER]

Is it possible (within the rules) that they are running their engine closer to its limit? So close, that it caused Vettel's failiure this weekend?

Of course. Engine mapping itself is not forbidden. Changing setups between qualis and races is. It's possible RB and Renault have found a way to load the engine more agressively. This would logically mean more gases to the diffusor (10% allowed is not a fixed value) and thanks to that more downforce.

[Brakefade]

Just found this:

A new Adrian Newey-penned floor has debuted on the RB8 this weekend, which according to some sources produces a kind of ‘double diffuser’ effect. And veteran photographer Darren Heath said he heard from his regular trackside vantage point in practice "what sounds like off-throttle blowing" coming from German Vettel’s car.

Then, with the chasing seven drivers all separated by a similar margin, Vettel stunned the paddock late on Saturday by going almost four tenths faster than his nearest qualifying rival, Lewis Hamilton. So with hundredths or thousandths proving decisive among his chasing rivals, is there is a ‘secret’ to Vettel’s several-tenths gap on Saturday? "What is your secret?" Hamilton, agreeing with the questioner, smilingly enquired of his rival after qualifying. "Can’t tell you," the German smiled back. The smiles might not last for long.

Germany’s Bild newspaper said the situation could lead to F1′s "next protest threat against Red Bull". Briton Hamilton is quoted by the newspaper as saying: "You only have to look at his car to know where the big gap comes from." The McLaren driver is expecting to be beaten by the upgraded Red Bull on Sunday. "My boss wouldn’t like me to say this but … my target is to finish where I am," he said.

Williams’ Pastor Maldonado starts third, but many in the paddock consider Romain Grosjean’s Lotus to be Vettel’s real challenger for victory. Asked by Marca newspaper if he could be F1′s eighth different winner of 2012, the Frenchman answered: "I could be! "I will start the race with the desire to win," he confirmed, according to the French-language RMC Sport. "But I think that if Vettel keeps his pace, he is untouchable."

That was the whole point of the drastic exhaust/diffuser rule changes from 2011. The rest of the field better protest. Since they didn't win anything it will be easy for the FIA to declare it illegal, and tell RB they're not allowed to have from here onwards. No need to make a big fuss, just ban it for the rest of the season.

[Hornet]

This is great news for us but, how can we test with the F2012 with such testing limitations?

Could somebody explain?

When you have new aero parts, one of the thing the team test is to see how the airflow is. We see them doing this with the bright green paint they put on the car during Free Practice 1. They just run the car at constant low speed down the straight to do this. With this extra straight line testing, they can do it before the next race, and see if its working. If something needs to change, then they will have another chance to try again at Silverstone FP, rather than having to wait until Silverstone to test the new parts

In the past, a large amount of full speed testing was done for tires development, where the manufactures brings different compound and they have to do race simulation for all of them to test it.

Tire development no longer exist as we now have Pirelli supplying a fix type of tires, no team needs to test and develop them.

[wacc]

[Nova]

So, am I to assume the "new" RB floor is illegal?
And, if it is, why then arent the other teams up in arms, calling for inquiries etc etc???

[Hornet]

So, am I to assume the "new" RB floor is illegal?
And, if it is, why then arent the other teams up in arms, calling for inquiries etc etc???

Technically they did not do anything to the floor. They just added an additional layer above it. This was an evolution from the ramp idea we saw during winter testing, so it isn't anything new. Red Bull added a hole below the ramp to allow the sidepod airflow go to the rear section while the ramp guides the exhaust gas to the side of the diffuser.

Not sure how legit is the ramp since there are rules about having parts that guide the exhaust gas, but I guess if its illegal someone would have protested it long ago.

[Jose Lorca]

Just found this:

This is from Canada:

Darren Heath ‏@F1Photographer

• Get yer'self to a slowish corner @ #f1montreal Listen to the #redbull cars.If that ain't off-throttle blowing I'll eat my hat...
• @hollytinsel I ain't saying' anything is illegal just what I heard this morning @ #f1montreal
• Chat with #f1mclaren Sam Michael.Confirmed that most teams are off-throttle blowing. #fia approved post pre'12 testing. #f1montreal
• @JordanSDeanF1 Allowed but not to level of #f1 '11 & not directly to diffuser.Once again #redbull seemingly doing the best job.

This is from Valencia:

Darren Heath ‏@F1Photographer

• Lot's of what sounds like 'Off throttle blowing' from #vettel #redbull @ #f1valencia today. #ferrari too.
• @Bill_Cropper All to do with how much exhaust opening is allowed when 'off throttle'. Such a massive advantage if teams can make it work

[Grillo]

I reckon the spirit of the rules is clear but oh well...

I hope they develop a very clever solution in Maranello to at least be able to put up a fight in Q3 and what's most important on Sunday race.

[Tifoso]

Of course. Engine mapping itself is not forbidden. Changing setups between qualis and races is. It's possible RB and Renault have found a way to load the engine more agressively. This would logically mean more gases to the diffusor (10% allowed is not a fixed value) and thanks to that more downforce.

It could also mean that they need to run it near/over the breaking point to get that extra boost. Which is fantastic news

[type056]

Technically they did not do anything to the floor. They just added an additional layer above it. This was an evolution from the ramp idea we saw during winter testing, so it isn't anything new. Red Bull added a hole below the ramp to allow the sidepod airflow go to the rear section while the ramp guides the exhaust gas to the side of the diffuser.

Not sure how legit is the ramp since there are rules about having parts that guide the exhaust gas, but I guess if its illegal someone would have protested it long ago.

ٌWhat is difference between our rear end and redbull?
Our exhaust gas goes down and between the tyres and the diffuser and air from underneath sidpode goes above diffuser and blown engine starter hole as redbull do.
I do not know what is special with their rear end, particularly their underneath sidepod air/
Is it more efficient?

[burak karakutuk]

This is from Canada:



This is from Valencia:

So what i understand is some other teams doing it but mostly Red Bull did the best.I wonder if we are off throttle blowing too?What news about new big package coming to Silverstone?We must try hard on this double floor and get ready as soon as possible before another Red Bull domination.

[scuderiafan]

Straight line test would mean a pretty big package, I think. They did one before Spain.

[ferrari4life]

It could also mean that they need to run it near/over the breaking point to get that extra boost. Which is fantastic news

except Webber's car ran to the end. So either his car is not setup the same way. or..

[Hornet]

ٌWhat is difference between our rear end and redbull?
Our exhaust gas goes down and between the tyres and the diffuser and air from underneath sidpode goes above diffuser and blown engine starter hole as redbull do.
I do not know what is special with their rear end, particularly their underneath sidepod air/
Is it more efficient?

Every team is aiming for the same thing, we just go about in a different way.

The aim here is to get the exhaust gas down to the side of the diffuser (between the floor and the wheel). This is to help seal the diffuser. However,traditionally the high speed sidepod airflow need to go to the rear section of the car, flowing above the floor or diffuser. This is why we have the coke bottle shape.

So now we have a problem. We have two different flow, the sidepod airflow, and the exhaust gas, crossing each other, both going in different direction.

This is why Ferrari introduce the Acer duct. The sidepod flow will flow below the duct and go to the rear, and the exhaust gas will leap across the sidepod airflow, and head down to the side of the diffuser between the floor and the wheel. In theory this is good but it turns out to be impractical as you can't control how the exhaust gas flow once it leaves the duct.

McLaren concept is similar, just less agrressive. But the same idea, trying to get the exhaust gas flow across the sidepod airflow. Again, they can't control the exhaust gas once it leaves the exhaust.

Red Bull aims to guide the exhaust gas all the way to the gap between the diffuser and the wheel. Instead of letting the exhaust gas flow freely and hope it goes to where it need to go, they build a ramp to lead the gas all the way down there. The gas flows on top of this ramp.

But there's a problem now. What about the sidepod airflow? The ramp is blocking the sidepod airflow. This is why Red Bull introduce the gap below the ramp. This gap is to allow the sidepod airflow to continue to the rear section. Remember the two different flow need to cross each other.

So the advantage RB have now is that their exhaust gas is more well guided compared to other team.

[FrankAlfa]

@ Hornet,

+1

Excellent review of airflow at the rear. There are vorties and directional ditortion of flow that have to be enbraced as well.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[Tifoso]

except Webber's car ran to the end. So either his car is not setup the same way. or..

True dat.

[Nova]

Yea, when I rewatched the race today, I noticed the difference in rearview mirrors on the Ferrari's..makes me wonder if
the Ferrari's are setup different as well.
It also reminded me of how fast Vettel RB was..pulling out something like 19 seconds...thats huge.
When Alonso was leading we didnt pull no 19 seconds, n that was on Ham.

[type056]

Every team is aiming for the same thing, we just go about in a different way.

The aim here is to get the exhaust gas down to the side of the diffuser (between the floor and the wheel). This is to help seal the diffuser. However,traditionally the high speed sidepod airflow need to go to the rear section of the car, flowing above the floor or diffuser. This is why we have the coke bottle shape.

So now we have a problem. We have two different flow, the sidepod airflow, and the exhaust gascrossing eac, h other, both going in different direction.

This is why Ferrari introduce the Acer duct. The sidepod flow will flow below the duct and go to the rear, and the exhaust gas will leap across the sidepod airflow, and head down to the side of the diffuser between the floor and the wheel. In theory this is good but it turns out to be impractical as you can't control how the exhaust gas flow once it leaves the duct.

McLaren concept is similar, just less agrressive. But the same idea, trying to get the exhaust gas flow across the sidepod airflow. Again, they can't control the exhaust gas once it leaves the exhaust.

Red Bull aims to guide the exhaust gas all the way to the gap between the diffuser and the wheel. Instead of letting the exhaust gas flow freely and hope it goes to where it need to go, they build a ramp to lead the gas all the way down there. The gas flows on top of this ramp.

But there's a problem now. What about the sidepod airflow? The ramp is blocking the sidepod airflow. This is why Red Bull introduce the gap below the ramp. This gap is to allow the sidepod airflow to continue to the rear section. Remember the two different flow need to cross each other.

So the advantage RB have now is that their exhaust gas is more well guided compared to other team.

Thanks.
So there is nothing special,they are just more efficient.
Does Red Bull tunnel accelerate (suck) air as it seems tunnel outlet is much bigger than tunnel inlet (act like diffuser)?
Can we add very tall vertical fins under exhaust plume to direct underneath sidepod air to rear to prevent air interference instead to direct exhaust gas by ramp.
Do FIA prevent teams to use this type fins on floor?Red Bull add three vertical fins behind each side of diffuser in Valencia.

[Kiwi Nick]

What is special about Red Bull (Newey) is that they are always innovating and everybody else is copying their innovations and testing them against previous designs. Some of the copies miss the mark and some are better than the designs they replace. This is one reason that things are so close this year, teams have found that it is cheaper and easier to quickly clone copies of innovative winning designs . Newey is still the master of pushing the envelope, Rory is second best at the moment, but only because Ferrari are playing catch up. Come 2014 when the big changes kick in it will be a new ball game.

The new Red Bull exhaust and rear bodywork is so radically different from the rest of the grid that it represents a great leap forward as we say in quali. The broken alternator was an aberration not of Red Bull's making. Silverstone should be interesting. Ferrari and Lotus look to have the best race pace. But that all could change.

[Tifoso]

What is special about Red Bull (Newey) is that they are always innovating and everybody else is copying their innovations and testing them against previous designs. Some of the copies miss the mark and some are better than the designs they replace. This is one reason that things are so close this year, teams have found that it is cheaper and easier to quickly clone copies of innovative winning designs . Newey is still the master of pushing the envelope, Rory is second best at the moment, but only because Ferrari are playing catch up. Come 2014 when the big changes kick in it will be a new ball game.

The new Red Bull exhaust and rear bodywork is so radically different from the rest of the grid that it represents a great leap forward as we say in quali. The broken alternator was an aberration not of Red Bull's making. Silverstone should be interesting. Ferrari and Lotus look to have the best race pace. But that all could change.

Could you expand on this, please?

[Chicane]

Every team is aiming for the same thing, we just go about in a different way.

The aim here is to get the exhaust gas down to the side of the diffuser (between the floor and the wheel). This is to help seal the diffuser. However,traditionally the high speed sidepod airflow need to go to the rear section of the car, flowing above the floor or diffuser. This is why we have the coke bottle shape.

So now we have a problem. We have two different flow, the sidepod airflow, and the exhaust gas, crossing each other, both going in different direction.


This is why Ferrari introduce the Acer duct. The sidepod flow will flow below the duct and go to the rear, and the exhaust gas will leap across the sidepod airflow, and head down to the side of the diffuser between the floor and the wheel. In theory this is good but it turns out to be impractical as you can't control how the exhaust gas flow once it leaves the duct.

McLaren concept is similar, just less agrressive. But the same idea, trying to get the exhaust gas flow across the sidepod airflow. Again, they can't control the exhaust gas once it leaves the exhaust.

Red Bull aims to guide the exhaust gas all the way to the gap between the diffuser and the wheel. Instead of letting the exhaust gas flow freely and hope it goes to where it need to go, they build a ramp to lead the gas all the way down there. The gas flows on top of this ramp.

But there's a problem now. What about the sidepod airflow? The ramp is blocking the sidepod airflow. This is why Red Bull introduce the gap below the ramp. This gap is to allow the sidepod airflow to continue to the rear section. Remember the two different flow need to cross each other.

So the advantage RB have now is that their exhaust gas is more well guided compared to other team.

My goodness sake, how come redbull can always do better, and ferrari don't, that adrian newey is really a genious
i hope we can copy it cause it really working..the pace of vettel in qualy and race is similar to 2011 if we cant copy that for sure vettel can easily dominate again @hornet do you think this concept can be easily copied? is it too radical? or can be incorporated with ease with the f2012?