Toro Rosso, one of the success keys for Red Bull

[T van R]

According to my researches, Toro Rosso is playing a key roll in success of Red Bull.

1. Toro Rosso is a rookie drivers academy for Red Bull. Red Bull compensates the lack of driving tests by Toro Rosso.

2. Red Bull helps Toro Rosso(Red Bull's sister team) in technical aspects to help Toro Rosso gain better rank in constructors championship for gaining more money.

3. Toro Rosso is playing a key roll in designing & developing Red Bull cars. so:
I.Red Bull always has double time for designing the cars for next season compare to the other teams.
II.Red Bull has double time for developing the car compare to the other teams.
III.Red Bull can test new parts on Toro Rosso's car during the season without being worry about the Possible impact of new parts or going backwards during the race.

Below link is Sebastian Buemi's recent interview. In this interview Sebastian Buemi said "I was more doing the work on the RB8, the Red Bull car next year." You can realize the very very very close relationship between Red Bull & Toro Rosso in terms of designing & developing.

Original Link: http://www.tsr.ch/sport/mecanises/au...ehensible.html

Translated link: http://translate.google.com/translat...e.html&act=url

In the end:

According to above information there are some questions:

1. According to the fact that Toro Rosso isn't in Formula1 to become champion because Red Bull won't allow it's sister team(Toro Rosso) to become it's rival. Is it fair that Toro Rosso takes other teams place(The teams that want to participate in Formula1 in near future)?

2. Red Bull compensates the ban of more testing by Toro Rosso. Is it illegal or not?

Any comment?

[Hornet]

As for drivers, I think Ferrari is doing that with Sauber too. Ferrari took young Massa on after he proved himself in Sauber. I believe recently we tested a young driver from Sauber too, Perez if I'm not mistaken.

I doubt Red Bull can test their parts on TR cars since its completely different. Although they may be able to test new ideas by having TR take on some whacky ideas and if it works, they will incorporate it in their future RB cars

[T van R]

I think (Red Bull-Toro Rosso) is not comparable with (Ferrari-Sauber) in so many ways. I don't think Ferrari can replace Sauber driver like Toro Rosso did because of Red Bull & Kobayashi is not a member of Ferrari drivers academy.

Many believe that Toro Rosso's car is Red Bull's RB5 or RB6 car. So it is really possible to test new parts on Toro Rosso.

Sauber wants to win championship but Toro Rosso obviously doesn't want.

[Jose Lorca]

Toro Rosso exist to help Red Bull.

If they want to test young drivers, they use Toro Rosso. If Toro Rosso are running an important program in practice and a Red Bull shows up in their mirrors, they must back off and ruin their own program. Look at what happened to Alguersuari in Korea. They will happily block rival cars when they are shown the blue flag, so that Red Bull will benefit. If they are unsure of whether the track is wet/dry enough for a particular tyre and nobody has experimented yet, they will use Toro Rosso. If Red Bull need more data about general tyre behaviour, they would speak to Toro Rosso.

I'm convinced Red Bull also do Toro Rosso some favours. The most recent Toro Rosso looks like its been inspired by the RB5 - and remember how Toro Rosso were struggling in 2011 and then suddenly became quick? Their new-found speed was due to an exhaust update, which I'm sure was thanks to a few blueprints from Newey. How else could a small team like Toro Rosso develop such an effective EBD?

Our relationship with Sauber is not comparable. Sauber signed Perez before we signed him to our academy and if we had full power of their driver line-up, Bianchi would be alongside Perez. We can only try to persuade them, whereas Marko has the final say on the Toro Rosso line-up. Look how Kobayashi blocked Massa this year in Canada. Then look at how Buemi yielded against Webber at Abu Dhabi 2010.

[F2008]

Then look at how Buemi yielded against Webber at Abu Dhabi 2010.

Noticed that too. I remember Ecclestone saying that team orders within a team are merely tactics but orders between two teams are "criminal"... but he probably forgot about it.

[T van R]

I don't know why FIA take no action despite being aware about what is going on between Toro Rosso & Red Bull

[REDARMYSOJA]

I don't know why FIA take no action despite being aware about what is going on between Toro Rosso & Red Bull

Exactly what rules are they violating?

[Rob]

Think this year was the first year Torro Rosso had to design and develope their own car. As part of the "no customer" cars. If has agreed last year i think. Yeah they still get the RB money, but they are not allowed to swap or help in the design of each others cars. Yeah they can go out in the wet to see how conditions are before RBFR send their guys out, and put in young drivers in. The problem is, RB has too many young drivers on their books. My thought on that is that they sign up as many hot young drivers before us and Mclaren.

[F2008]

Exactly what rules are they violating?

13.6 No more than 26 cars will be admitted to the Championship, two being entered by each competitor.

[T van R]

Exactly what rules are they violating?

I believe FIA can take action for this but i don't know why they don't.
Red Bull uses Toro Rooso. Toro Rosso helps Red Bull alot. for every reason that i will tell maybe Red Bull has an unfair explanation. It is duo to FIA to decide now. Maybe there are something that aren't mentioned in the rules & it is FIA job to consider it, But i name some of them here:

Red Bull violates FOTA rules while being member of it:
1. Red Bull has engaged more than the allowed 350 staff for the direct design, construction and development of the car.
2. Red Bull has operated its wind tunnel longer than the allowable hours according to the resource restriction agreement (RRA)
3. Red Bull has refused to let inspectors check the team’s adherence to the RRA during inspections.

& the answers from Marko is really ridiculous & not enough:

1. “That’s not true,” said Marko. “The other top teams simply need to realise that we work more efficiently than they do.”
2. “Our wind tunnel is an antique, 80 years old and three times bigger than a modern one. It just takes longer to get going, and so only when it is (running) do we begin to measure (the time),” explained Marko.
3. Marko insisted: “We have provided the information that we had to and nothing more.”

I read in somewhere Marko answered "It is the jealously of poor losers, throwing mud and hoping something sticks." That answer is not an answer. It is childish game.

There are some evidence & complaints that show Toro Rosso drivers help Red Bull by blocking other drivers. Hamilton claims Jaime Alguersuari and Sebastien Buemi deliberately held him up as he pursued Sebastian Vettel over the closing stages of Sunday's Spanish Grand Prix.
http://www.sportinglife.com/formula1...d.html&BID=669

or

Buemi yielded against Webber at Abu Dhabi 2010.

Blocking because of sister team is not legal. Isn't it? I believe FIA can take an action & i am quite sure that FIA will do something about (Toro Rosso & Red Bull).

[REDARMYSOJA]

13.6 No more than 26 cars will be admitted to the Championship, two being entered by each competitor.

They don't have four cars, they have two.

[REDARMYSOJA]

I believe FIA can take action for this but i don't know why they don't.
Red Bull uses Toro Rooso. Toro Rosso helps Red Bull alot. for every reason that i will tell maybe Red Bull has an unfair explanation. It is duo to FIA to decide now. Maybe there are something that aren't mentioned in the rules & it is FIA job to consider it, But i name some of them here:

Red Bull violates FOTA rules while being member of it:
1. Red Bull has engaged more than the allowed 350 staff for the direct design, construction and development of the car.
2. Red Bull has operated its wind tunnel longer than the allowable hours according to the resource restriction agreement (RRA)
3. Red Bull has refused to let inspectors check the team’s adherence to the RRA during inspections.

& the answers from Marko is really ridiculous & not enough:

1. “That’s not true,” said Marko. “The other top teams simply need to realise that we work more efficiently than they do.”
2. “Our wind tunnel is an antique, 80 years old and three times bigger than a modern one. It just takes longer to get going, and so only when it is (running) do we begin to measure (the time),” explained Marko.
3. Marko insisted: “We have provided the information that we had to and nothing more.”

I read in somewhere Marko answered "It is the jealously of poor losers, throwing mud and hoping something sticks." That answer is not an answer. It is childish game.

The FIA has nothing to do with FOTA. They don't not attend the meetings, they do not make the rules, they do not enforce the rules (Because they can't)

There are some evidence & complaints that show Toro Rosso drivers help Red Bull by blocking other drivers. Hamilton claims Jaime Alguersuari and Sebastien Buemi deliberately held him up as he pursued Sebastian Vettel over the closing stages of Sunday's Spanish Grand Prix.
http://www.sportinglife.com/formula1...d.html&BID=669

or

Buemi yielded against Webber at Abu Dhabi 2010.

Blocking because of sister team is not legal. Isn't it? I believe FIA can take an action & i am quite sure that FIA will do something about (Toro Rosso & Red Bull).

What you think and what you can prove are two different things.

[Jose Lorca]

Red Bull can't be punished by the FIA for blatently breaking the FOTA rules -but Red Bull have broken FIA rules in recent years:

-It took several races in 2010 for the FIA to work out that the RB6 had an illegal diffuser and a blatently illegal rear suspension, both of which they were asked to modify.
- They also had an illegal ride height system, proved by the fact that their car was bottoming out in Malaysia Q3 but never did after the FIA's clarification. (To those who think the whole ride height thing was just a wild accusation by McLaren, remember that the unraced Stefan GP car also had a ride height system - so it's not silly to think that Newey designed one as well.)
- Regardless of any lousy test, the flexible front wing does contravene the FIA rules. It's shameful that the FIA refuse to use video evidence to prove that the wing is flexing a lot more than it should. It's not a clever innovation, but a direct violation of the rules that for some reason is declared "legal" by Whiting.
- Look how long they let Red Bull exploit EBD's, only declaring it illegal when another team protested. They let other teams spend millions trying to catch up when they were fully aware of the technology long before Williams protested. Then Newey behaves like a spoilt child in Silverstone and the FIA behave like bad parents, giving into the child's demands after a temper tantrum - so teams were free to use illegal technology for the rest of the season.
- There was also a (quickly deleted) tweet by Neel Jani saying that his neck hurt due to high speed cornering in the Red Bull - which breaks the in-season testing rules because Red Bull were only allowed to do straight line tests.
- I'm sure some of the things they do with Toro Rosso breaches 151c.

Unfortunately, a lack of solid evidence combined with general incompetence from the FIA means that Red Bull haven't been punished yet.

[Nova]

Its too bad Toro Rosso Have become the pawns of RB..They themselves probably liked it much better when they were
simply Minardi, and ran their own team. By the way, who sponsers Toro?
I also wonder to what degree Ferrari persuades Sauber..I also wonder why the heck Toro uses Ferrari engines, yet Toro belongs to RB?
Its like RB can gauge their own cars performace against Ferrari's and keep an eye on Ferrari engines..doesnt make much sense.

[Rob]

Its too bad Toro Rosso Have become the pawns of RB..They themselves probably liked it much better when they were
simply Minardi, and ran their own team. By the way, who sponsers Toro?
I also wonder to what degree Ferrari persuades Sauber..I also wonder why the heck Toro uses Ferrari engines, yet Toro belongs to RB?
Its like RB can gauge their own cars performace against Ferrari's and keep an eye on Ferrari engines..doesnt make much sense.

In recent years, TR has wanted to get money from other sponsors and backers. As i think all teams and even FIA were pushing for it. As TR was seen to be customer car couple years ago. Im not defending them or RBR. But, yes they were RBRs little play team, but they and TR and Marko have said they want to "distantance" themselves from TR. Let face it, RBR and Renault and Sauber will hold up rivals for few corners to help out sister teams. Not nice, but its racing and since we have teams with fingers in so many pies, they will want their sister team, or even engine supplier to hold up rivals.

At end of day TR is trying to get money from other backers, try not to rely on RBs money. Only way to really stop it, is the FIA totally ban the parent company chain of money. But, if they do that, we would loose a team or two. Its a 2 edged sword.

[T van R]

The FIA has nothing to do with FOTA. They don't not attend the meetings, they do not make the rules, they do not enforce the rules (Because they can't)

What you think and what you can prove are two different things.

I know FIA has nothing to do with FOTA, But Red Bull violated FOTA rules despite being a member of it in 2011 season.

&

So which organization is responsible for considering "Illegal blockings in favor of sister team" ?

[Greig]

2. Red Bull has operated its wind tunnel longer than the allowable hours according to the resource restriction agreement (RRA)

Wind tunnel time is restricted in the FIA rules I am pretty sure, so they should be answering to the FIA on that one.

[Rob]

Published with permission from the Federation Internationale de l' Automobile.

22) TRACK AND WIND TUNNEL TESTING
22.1 Track testing shall be considered any track running time not part of an Event undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship, using cars which conform substantially with the 2010, 2011 or 2012 Formula One Technical Regulations, with the exception of promotional events carried out using tyres provided specifically for this purpose by the appointed supplier.
22.2 No competitor may carry out more than 15,000km of track testing during a calendar year.
22.3 No track testing may take place :
a) Whilst a Championship Event is taking place.
b) During the month of August except under c) iii) below.
c) Between the start of the week preceding the first Event of the Championship and 31 December of the same year with the following exceptions :
i) One three day young driver training test, carried out on a site approved by the FIA for Formula 1 cars either, between the end of the last Event of the Championship and 31 December of the same year or, at any other time during the Championship season following the agreement of all competitors and the FIA. No driver who has competed in more than two F1 World Championship races may take part in this test and all drivers must be in possession of an International A Licence.
ii) Four one day aerodynamic tests carried out on FIA approved straight line or constant radius sites between 1 January 2012 and the end of the last Event of the Championship. Any of these days may be substituted for four hours of wind-on full scale wind tunnel testing to be carried out in a single twenty four hour period.
iii) If a team declares that one of its current race drivers is to be substituted by a driver who has not participated in an F1 race in the two previous calendar years, one day of track testing will be permitted between the start of the week preceding second Event and the last Event of the Championship. The following must be observed :
- Any such day may only be carried out by the new driver and may not take place on a circuit hosting a race in the current Championship year.
- Any such day may only take place within a period 14 days prior to the substitution and 14 days after the substitution has taken place.
- If a team, having declared the driver's substitution and performed the test, does not then enter an Event with the new driver, the team will be penalised by a reduction of one day from the pre-season track testing days available in the following year.
22.4 During all track testing cars must be fitted with the FIA ECU required by Article 8.2 of the FIA Formula One Technical Regulations.
22.5 No track testing is permitted at sites which are not currently approved for use by Formula 1 cars. In order to ensure that venue licence conditions are respected at all times during track testing, competitors are required to inform the FIA of their test schedule in order that an observer may be appointed if deemed necessary.
22.6 During all Formula One track testing :
a) Red flag and chequered flag procedures must be respected.
b) No other type of vehicle is permitted on the track.
c) Every reasonable effort should be made to ensure that the recommendations concerning emergency services detailed in Article 16 of Appendix H to the Code are followed.
22.7 If, after an incident during track testing, the Medical Warning Light signals that threshold forces have been exceeded the driver must present himself for examination in the circuit medical centre without delay.
22.8 With the exception of the full scale testing permitted in 22.1(a) above, no wind tunnel testing may be carried out using a scale model which is greater than 60% of full size.
22.9 No wind tunnel testing may be carried out at a speed exceeding 50 metres/second.

[REDARMYSOJA]

I know FIA has nothing to do with FOTA, But Red Bull violated FOTA rules despite being a member of it in 2011 season.

Then why do you expect the FIA to enforce FOTA rules?

&

So which organization is responsible for considering "Illegal blockings in favor of sister team" ?

Again, do you have proof of this happening? You can't just say they are because of what you see on track. I still think the TR's were purposefully blocking Alonso in Brazil in 2010. But just because of what I saw.

For Red Bull to be punished, you have to have solid evidence, like transmissions between the teams telling them to do so.

[T van R]

Then why do you expect the FIA to enforce FOTA rules?

FIA & FOTA are not two different world. Most of the FOTA's agreement & rules are based on FIA rules. FOTA doesn't make the rules or agreement by itself. FOTA's every action is relative to FIA rules & Formula 1 teams. There are a lot of discussion between them. Maybe FIA has nothing to do with FOTA, but FOTA needs FIA to act & enforce the agreement. FIA is ruler & FOTA sets its agreements according to FIA rules (For example allowable hours for operating wind tunnel). So obviously seperating FOTA & FIA is a mistake.

Again, do you have proof of this happening? You can't just say they are because of what you see on track. I still think the TR's were purposefully blocking Alonso in Brazil in 2010. But just because of what I saw.

For Red Bull to be punished, you have to have solid evidence, like transmissions between the teams telling them to do so.

According to your post, even stewards have to bring solid evidence to penalise a driver during the race while The evidence is in the race itself.
I am not agree with you. Spectators like race stewards will react to illegal blockings in races just by watching the scene.

[REDARMYSOJA]

FIA & FOTA are not two different world. Most of the FOTA's agreement & rules are based on FIA rules. FOTA doesn't make the rules or agreement by itself. FOTA's every action is relative to FIA rules & Formula 1 teams. There are a lot of discussion between them. Maybe FIA has nothing to do with FOTA, but FOTA needs FIA to act & enforce the agreement. FIA is ruler & FOTA sets its agreements according to FIA rules (For example allowable hours for operating wind tunnel). So obviously seperating FOTA & FIA is a mistake.



According to your post, even stewards have to bring solid evidence to penalise a driver during the race while The evidence is in the race itself.
I am not agree with you. Spectators like race stewards will react to illegal blockings in races just by watching the scene.

You keep changing your argument. Drivers are punished all the time for blocking another driver. But you are talking abut one team ordering another team to block for them. To punish for that, you must have solid evidence. That's a very serious charge and would carry much greater punishment that simply one driver blocking another. You can't punish someone for that just by video or transponder evidence. You would have to have proof one team ordered another team to do it.

[T van R]

You keep changing your argument. Drivers are punished all the time for blocking another driver. But you are talking abut one team ordering another team to block for them. To punish for that, you must have solid evidence. That's a very serious charge and would carry much greater punishment that simply one driver blocking another. You can't punish someone for that just by video or transponder evidence. You would have to have proof one team ordered another team to do it.

My arguments are stable & clear. I said bunch of things for Red Bull & Toro Rosso & one of them is about one team ordering another team to blocking. every body knows that on purpose blockings or on purpose yielding is often happened among Toro Rosso drivers for doing a favor for Red Bull. Evidences not coming from sky, They are in the race. in that case Toro Rosso drivers again & again do illegal blocking in favor of Red Bull in important moments & it is obvious evidence & it is not comparable with other blockings by other teams during the race.

[theforce]

As long as Ferrari is not involved, nobody takes action.

[aroutis]

As long as Ferrari is not involved, nobody takes action.

Finally someone said it.
It's all about if someone makes a formal complain to the FIA , and in that complaint he makes a case about whatever he feels it's inappropriate and breaks the rules that FIA is responsible to uphold.

As for FOTA, Ferrari and RBR both have walked away. So who cares anymore?

[F2008]

What to think about this... 2 different teams yeah right!

[Hermann]

What to think about this... 2 different teams yeah right!

Obviously Marko expected some help from Alguersuari, and made sure RB would get what they asked for. But don't expect anything from FIA here, it has all gone like it was planned.

[NJB13]

Obviously Marko expected some help from Alguersuari, and made sure RB would get what they asked for. But don't expect anything from FIA here, it has all gone like it was planned.

I think Luca has signalled already that we will be more active and vocal in pushing our agenda, BUT more impotently at the same time we will simply get better at the way things are done now. We will just build a better faster car/aircraft - can't wait for the first race.

[MarlboroFA]

Torro Rosso didn t get help from Newey for the EBD, remember the strange exhaust we had with he extra chamber? So unless Newey did design it and we just copied it from TR, it was us who helped TR...

I think TR in some cases indeed helps RB, blocking etc...But TR can also help us out...


and about RB knowing our engines...

1 they allready raced with our engines

2 do you think TR gets he exact same engine as we run, dont think so... Wold be dumb if it was ,exactly for this reason

[justjesper]

Fantastic
Happy New Year.

T van R, I know we all wanted Ferrari to win. Now RBR did it, fair and square. Live with it.

[Jose Lorca]

After deciding Buemi is not good enough and replacing him, they now bring him back as Red Bull's reserve driver. Very odd decision but knowing Marko, I bet Buemi is only being retained by RB because he did simulator work on the RB8 prior to getting replaced. What a shame that Buemi has crawled back to Marko.