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Thread: Have the FIA let the sport down?

  1. #1
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    Have the FIA let the sport down?

    I am pretty much sure after last year's drama they stated the new rules would stop off throttle blowing (which they appear to have done) but also to stop exhaust gasses being used for any aerodynamic gains? I am sure I read Ross Brawn stating they had lots of meetings to prevent the exhausts being an area of performance, yet it seems this year already the exhaust blowing is still the main aim?
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    It probably is because Newey is in love with exhaust blowing and refused to give it up.

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    IMO if its within the regulations then why should a team not take full advantage of it when they 'know' they can? End of day its all about winning. Ferrari have failed since 09 to make a noticeable impact but starting on a clean sheet of paper, hopefully this year will end the run of chasing the leading team. RedBull have been able to carry the momentum and every year seem to be improving, don't know and don't care how they are doing it but they have certainly impressed unlike Ferrari & McLaren whom after 08 seemed out of place. Now with teams like Mercedez and Renault clawing back some performance, soon they will be knocking on the door steps of the 3 leaders.

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    I agree if it's the rules then it's fair game, as was the case last year even though I got slated so much for it, but that was last year, the main point was I was sure the FIA said it would not be allowed, and also sure I read them saying pre-testing that any system being used for aero performance will be banned?
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    yep, i agree, but all teams are using it, so we cannot really complain. this technical working group isn't working, it seems like FOTA all over again, with teams with an agenda against eachother.
    imo, since 2005, FIA have been making some pretty pointless rule changes. i think i read somewhere, that teams spend millions for 0.1s, but if the rules were given even a little more leeway, then they could find 3s at a fraction of that. nice costcutting there.

    my point is, i have noticed many things getting banned, and not a good reason for many.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    the FIA said it would not be allowed, and also sure I read them saying pre-testing that any system being used for aero performance will be banned?
    I have read that as well and also other teams like Williams saying that RB seems within the rules but I guess its just a waiting game until the FIA realize it and starting clamping down. Whatever their decision they must do it before Melbourne to avoid making a mockery of the rules like during Silverstone last year.

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    I thought EBD, DDD, exhausts gases channeled for aerodynamic gain was banned but I really don't know. I honestly think it was the spirit of the rule change to avoid that type of thing but the spirit of the rules is something not normaly used in F1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    I agree if it's the rules then it's fair game, as was the case last year even though I got slated so much for it, but that was last year, the main point was I was sure the FIA said it would not be allowed, and also sure I read them saying pre-testing that any system being used for aero performance will be banned?
    Its easy to blame the FIA, but can you tell us where exactly you would like put the exhausts on the car so they would have zero aero influence?

    Well, anywhere you place the exhausts on the F1 car, they will affect the wake, well FIA set the rules with clear positions for exhausts and teams have made maximum use of it...

    Rules have been very clear this year unlike 2009...so everyone has a level playing field

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    Quote Originally Posted by meh123 View Post
    Its easy to blame the FIA, but can you tell us where exactly you would like put the exhausts on the car so they would have zero aero influence?

    Well, anywhere you place the exhausts on the F1 car, they will affect the wake, well FIA set the rules with clear positions for exhausts and teams have made maximum use of it...

    Rules have been very clear this year unlike 2009...so everyone has a level playing field
    You sound happy enough with it then As I said I am sure I read the FIA said they will ban it, where I would put the exhausts is irrelevant and I never said zero aero they will always cause an affect on aero, rules are never very clear when it comes to the FIA in general.

    In addition to confirming the calendar the FIA has ratified various technical and sporting regulations, most of which were already in the public domain.

    • The exhaust tailpipes are now strictly regulated in order to ensure that the aerodynamic effect exhaust gases have on the car is kept to an absolute minimum.
    So can anyone tell me why teams are clearly maximising the exhaust?
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    I agree with you that the FIA rules are sometimes vague and yet superfluous at times.

    They way I see it is FIA put the rules down and all teams including Ferrari have optimised the exhaust position to generate extra downforce...either by blowing to the brake vanes or like the case of RBR/Sauber aiding downwash to help the diffuser.

    So can anyone tell me why teams are clearly maximising the exhaust?
    Coz the teams see it being within the rules and there is little Charlie Whiting can do as the rules were agreed unanimously.

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    Hence my initial post, why when they said they would keep exhaust use to a minimum have they not done so? It's a given that the teams will take a mile from an inch, they are not to blame for doing what the rules state.
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    FIA is to blame definitely when they write ambiguous rules, they could have easily written "exhaust gas has to exit behind the rear wing".

    With that said, if we don't perform well, it would be our fault as everyone has to follow the same rules.

  13. #13
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    To be honest some rules are a little bit confusing for me

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    Quote Originally Posted by T van R View Post
    To be honest some rules are a little bit confusing for me
    and maybe this is the heart of the issue. Key rules that seems to end up contributing to certain teams getting a Championship winning advantage never seem to be clear enough in the first place - and then end up being "open to interpretation", which is turn becomes a political thing rather than a technical thing.

    It's not impossible to do this kind of thing but the way F1 rules are changed pretty much ensures that loopholes are usually left and teams end up making choices for development that end up in field disparity which ends - all too often - in a pecking order that doesn't ensure close racing.

    Add to this the restriction on allowing terms to test throughout the season and you end up with what we have today, which is a fear that it's going to be the same as last year without the ability for a team to develop their car to victory - which Ferrari are pretty good at doing.

    "Luna faccia schiaffo testa"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Hence my initial post, why when they said they would keep exhaust use to a minimum have they not done so? It's a given that the teams will take a mile from an inch, they are not to blame for doing what the rules state.
    100% agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by meh123 View Post
    ... can you tell us where exactly you would like put the exhausts on the car so they would have zero aero influence?
    Beyond the end of the diffuser and rear wing. I'm pretty sure Scarbs had a drawing of this up when the FiA confirmed it last year.

    I think the OP is spot on.

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    Yup i agree too, but if i'm honest i was kinda disappointed when Ferrari released their car with the acer sculptured exhaust outlets because i knew what they were trying to do yet they were the ones trying to ban blown diffusers last year (i know those acer ducts blow the brake ducts, but the same principle applies)!
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    I don't understand the current rules about exhaust. I mean I learned at school that hot gasses rice. The 2012 exhausts are almost a meter behind the diffuser so in my opinion the influence of the exhausts gasses is at the moment minimal on downforce. I think the 2012 benefits are hugely exxagerated.

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    I think the problem is that the FIA are relying on the team's technical expert to come up with ways to ban a certain concept. But in the interest of their own team, had Adrian Newey thought of this idea back then for example, he's not going to go to them and say hey guys, I've found a way to still blow the diffuser with the exhaust gas, here's how. So lets ensure the rules cover this idea.

    Of course Newey is going to keep quiet and use that idea for himself! So at the end of the day, we achieve nothing more than what the FIA came up with themself. Any additional the team designer may think of will be kept to themself rather than being used to help the FIA enforce a ban.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedRebel40 View Post
    I don't understand the current rules about exhaust. I mean I learned at school that hot gasses rice. The 2012 exhausts are almost a meter behind the diffuser so in my opinion the influence of the exhausts gasses is at the moment minimal on downforce. I think the 2012 benefits are hugely exxagerated.
    A large amount of air rushes through the surface of the car when the car is moving. These high speed air flows according to how the car is design, and Red Bull is taking advantage of this moving air to carry the exhaust gas down to the small gap you see between the wheel and the diffuser, similar to the blown diffuser last year.

    Yes, its much less effective than last year, but something is always better than nothing.

  19. #19
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    I read somewhere that the speed of the exhaust gasses are around 400 km/h. there is no way an F1 car travels that fast. So the majority of those gasses rise into the air and goes under the rear wing without nearing the diffusor or other low parts of the car. also the exhaust is pointed 10 degrees up in to the air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRebel40 View Post
    I read somewhere that the speed of the exhaust gasses are around 400 km/h. there is no way an F1 car travels that fast. So the majority of those gasses rise into the air and goes under the rear wing without nearing the diffusor or other low parts of the car. also the exhaust is pointed 10 degrees up in to the air.
    Perhaps it may not work as you suggested. At the end of the day, they still have to test it in the real world. Which was what Red Bull did with all the sensing equipment they used. Whether it did work or not, we won't know until the season start I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRebel40 View Post
    I don't understand the current rules about exhaust. I mean I learned at school that hot gasses rice. The 2012 exhausts are almost a meter behind the diffuser so in my opinion the influence of the exhausts gasses is at the moment minimal on downforce. I think the 2012 benefits are hugely exxagerated.
    The velocity of the exhaust gases last year was close to 600m/s and was used as an effective "air" seal preventing the slower moving air from the diffuser to escape. This year the rules clearly sate circular exhaust outlets to minimise the aero advantage..

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRebel40 View Post
    I read somewhere that the speed of the exhaust gasses are around 400 km/h. there is no way an F1 car travels that fast. So the majority of those gasses rise into the air and goes under the rear wing without nearing the diffusor or other low parts of the car. also the exhaust is pointed 10 degrees up in to the air.

    How can it magicaly go up if it,s travelling at 600 m/s... It will follow the way of where the exhaust is pointing when it slows down then it goes up... You can test it with a hair dryer...


    Thats why the FIA said the exhaust must point upwards in angel beween 10 and 30 degrees....but the FIA is not good with aërodynamica so they didn,t know about Coanda effects etc etc...or they knew but didn,t do anything about it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarlboroFA View Post
    How can it magicaly go up if it,s travelling at 600 m/s... It will follow the way of where the exhaust is pointing when it slows down then it goes up... You can test it with a hair dryer...
    I don't have a hair dryer with such high temperatures . maybe a 'verfstripper' would work.

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    I wonder how long it will be before we don't have to worry about exhaust gasses, as there won't be any, can't wait!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiondella View Post
    I wonder how long it will be before we don't have to worry about exhaust gasses, as there won't be any, can't wait!
    that sux man racing with electrical cars lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRebel40 View Post
    I don't have a hair dryer with such high temperatures . maybe a 'verfstripper' would work.


    You get it tough...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermann View Post
    It probably is because Newey is in love with exhaust blowing and refused to give it up.
    Definitely, he is quite literally obsessed with it. I remember back in 2002, everyone had switched to periscope exhausts, yet Mclaren and Newey persisted with blowing the diffusers. Mclaren and Minardi were the only ones left blowing the diffuser. He only switched to the periscope exhausts after Mercedes engine designers told him they wanted shorter exhausts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiondella View Post
    I wonder how long it will be before we don't have to worry about exhaust gasses, as there won't be any, can't wait!
    Veni Vidi Vici e Vici Vici Vici.... Ferrari F2012 WDC WCC Champion

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