The gaps between team mates at end of season:
2011
SV 392 (P1)
MW 258 (P3)
-134
JB 270 (P2)
LH 227 (P5)
-43
FA 257 (P4)
FM 118 (P6)
-139
2010
SV 256 (P1)
MW 242 (P3)
-14
LH 240 (P4)
JB 214 (P5)
-26
FA 252 (P2)
FM 144 (P6)
-108
The gaps between team mates at end of season:
2011
SV 392 (P1)
MW 258 (P3)
-134
JB 270 (P2)
LH 227 (P5)
-43
FA 257 (P4)
FM 118 (P6)
-139
2010
SV 256 (P1)
MW 242 (P3)
-14
LH 240 (P4)
JB 214 (P5)
-26
FA 252 (P2)
FM 144 (P6)
-108
This is getting out of hand. There is no one on the grid other than Hamilton and maybe Vettel that could do a better job than Massa in that car. It is so bad, that any mere mortal would struggle in it, this is not a Massa problem. He is a proven race winner, almost won a dwc, and beat Kim over the long run, and your talking about the likes of perez, rosberg, sutil? who have proved nothing.
The large gap with Alonso is simply a repeat of history we saw it with Michael in the 90s in all the difficult cars. When he was banned in 1994 for some races, the benettons were lining up near the back of the grid, and when he came back they were winning. Same as in 1996 and 97, when he was miles ahead of Irvine, who was a good driver, yet many were fooled into thinking he was crap.
Whoever they replace Massa with, will be worse and many people will be shocked.
Couldn't agree more ..... people are saying let's give the car a chance to develop, it's only been one race, same with Massa, once he gets a bit of confidence in a competitive Ferrari he will improve ...let's remember there is generally always one driver in a team that outshines the other.
Its a bit trivial to say that a new driver for Ferrari will immidiately perform...I have repeatedly said that it takes a few races for anyone..we saw that with Fisci and Luca Badoer...
I would say Ferrari should start looking for a replacement now..
if Massa continues to underperform (finishes much much lower than FA), then fire him and put new guys in the car...why not try a different driver in FP1 like other teams, which make put more pressure on Massa to perform?? while we can evaluate other guys..
We fired a WDC after 1 year of non-performance...why not use the same yardstick now???
Also look at the difference in attitude between the drivers post qualifying:
Last edited by meh123; 20th March 2012 at 09:02.
I agree, in fact if I have to bet one one, I'd say that decision will not be made at least for the first half of the season. Which is why I think Massa still have the chance to prove himself this season. Maybe not the entire season, but at least for the first half of it.
And that was my point actually. That Ferrari is evaluation him, they have to do it now and evaluate him over the course of the season as it progresses. I see many people saying fix the car first, give them a fast car first, which gives the impression that Ferrari should not evaluate Massa now until they can fix the car. Unfortunately Ferrari do not have the luxury of doing that. Regardless of what happens to the car, Massa contract ends this year.
And Ferrari have to evaluate the situation throughout the entire season now to make a decision.
Last edited by Hornet; 20th March 2012 at 08:53.
Regarding Massa, and assuming that we all agree that, as a top team, Ferrari should make sure that it mans itself in the best way possible, I have taken a look at the total career points scored by each driver of the top 4 teams, here is the list:
Schumacher 1517
Alonso 1096
Button 836
Vettel 791
Hamilton 738
Webber 682
Massa 582
Rosberg 306
All the mathematicians and statisticians on the forum should for a minute ignore the fact that points systems have changed in the recent past, yet considering the amount of time each of these drivers has spent in a good car, the numbers speak for themselves. And don't get me started on graphing trends, because Massa's recent past has been absolutely dismal.
Now I know that this is an extremely simplistic way of looking at things, however I'm also sure that if I had to ask everybody to predict his points tally of 2012, we would have some very accurate, educated, guesses.
Can't say that's how your posts read, mate, but no one on here knows for sure if Ferrari aren't already doing so. Matter of fact, I find it hard to believe that Ferrari aren't always on the lookout for future talent. But if that's what you meant, no use in asking for his head on a plate immediately, no?
I don't think any more pressure can be applied to Felipe. The method you propose can just as easily backfire and we end up with giving the race driver less time in the car. Again, no one can be sure if Ferrari aren't already evaluating other drivers. Surely they are aware that Felipe's contract expires this year and want to have as many options as possible--it just makes sense to do so.
Because we were throwing tons of money at that WDC.
Felipe was asked "how difficult that car is to drive..." He replied accordingly. Fernando was asked a different set of questions. He replied accordingly. I don't see any bases for comparing their attitudes.
Personally I think this is the last year for Felipe at Ferrari no matter how things go and if it is then he can leave with his head held high and lot's of support from the Tifosi, I do not think Ferrari will replace him at any point during the season, but if the car is still rubbish next year then it won't make any difference, I am not one for saying sack people but I think this year should be the final one for Stefano if the results are not there. The buck has to stop at him at one point, no matter how likeable he is, maybe even bring a more technical minded person in to work alongside Stefano.
Forza Ferrari
I think most on here think the same, me included. The knee-jerk call for heads is just too irrational most of the time and while I understand the frustration, it makes no sense flogging a dead horse... or kicking someone when they are down. I believe we can voice our opinions, no matter what they are, in a more civilized and lucid manner.
Oh absolutely, no doubt about that - I wasn't trying to be exact.
But can you, hand on heart, say that, whichever way we look at things, that order of merit would change?
The point I am trying to make is that a top team needs to aim for both drivers and constructors' title. Now, over and above all the talk about the car improving over the coming weeks, and all that, Felipe has collected zero points from Australia. Even if we wanted to stay cool and not write off the WDC immediately (it's too early), it would be difficult to think that, at this rate, we won't be out of the WCC sooner rather than later.
There was a time when we used to feel sorry for Barrichello for having to finish second in order to let Schumacher win. Nowadays, our second driver is nowhere to be seen.
Maybe we should then, bring some techno bloke, to work alongside Stef Sunday.
He wont help him in being nice, thats what you learn in PR Academies around the world, cause if you re a kingpin and a waste of space, the least one can do is be nice.
It costs nothing.
Techno blokes cost money, at least.
Ask the drink manufacturers, maybe they know how to race and build F1 cars, since they re buying in the racing series with us, altogether now.
Or should we ask Luca, and go compete on our own?
Cause all those other fellas are getting quite fast, and they re not as flamboyant as us.
On a more serious note.
Scuderia Ferrari, has seen far worse times then this, scoreboardwise.
But Scuderia Fearrari has parted with its DNA, and it took only couple of years to do so.
Derogatory talks of competition, selfindulgence, waste of resources have even started this bandwagon, fellas changing the tyres and wrenching up or down didnt jump on it as a consequence of bad track performances.
Bad track performances, bad racing decisions, bad managemenet decisions, are just poetic justice.
You can mix banking, telecomunications, retail, wholesale and management, and no mattter what happens, you can almost always PR your way around it and convince even yourself to feel good about it.
The buck doesnt spin the same way, for example in air transportation, Formula One racing aswell.
bye cool...
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition
I agree. Massa has shown in 2008 that he's a championship contender. Add that to the fact that any drivers who have driven a Ferrari can be proud of it, I'd say its been a great career for him and he should be proud of it. Maybe something has changed for Massa, but its something that eventually happens to everyone. Even Schumi can't stay a great driver forever.
Still on the fence about Mr Stefano D though. He says a lot of nice things But its hard to tell how good is his management capabilities.
I like this quote from Autosprint:
La classifica non piange, per ora, almeno quella del mondiale Piloti (in quella Costruttori la Rossa č dietro alla Sauber, ma loro corrono con due macchine).
Quick and dirty translation:
The situation is not alarming in the WDC yet, although Ferrari is behind Sauber in the WCC (but, then again, Sauber runs two cars).
Very relevant to the recent posts on this thread.
If the drivers truly appreciate Ferrari legacy then they should do the honorable thing and walk out when under performing. No shame in that. It will truly show the character of the person. Simply admit that there is another driver who can do a better job than you for Ferrari. My respect for that person will grow exponentially. It's not like everyone else can't see that you are struggling. I love Felipe but his list of excuses never runs out. I'm hoping he steps up his game and stays with Ferrari but only time will tell.
You mean like Alonso walked out on McLaren?
Forza Ferrari
I finished my post with this: come back and tell me when the F2012 has secured its first pole position.
Has it yet? No? Then it's pointless to talk about Massa.
I've already said this, but I'll just repeat myself again... right now, we have a dog of a car, and until that improves, it's hopeless to even think about putting someone else in the car in place of Massa. Remember how Fisi struggled in 2009, coming off the back of a pole and 2nd place finish at Spa in the Force India?!
If there's the one main problem we should all be talking about right now, it's the car, nothing else matters at this stage.
The future is RED
I doubt any driver would want to leave Ferrari while they are driving...
Ferrari fired Prost and Kimi...thinking along the same lines..Ferrari could have fired Massa long back..LDM wanted to give Massa a second chance for some time...
I hope he can really surprise everyone and show us his true skills...otherwise...he should look for a ateam which best suits his driving style..
He didn't walked out, he was running from a pack of hyenas.
We don't need this, and the Italian press should know it, the team has enough troubles, we can't deal with this extra pressure of people asking to fire Massa, what if the replacement is as bad as Massa?, not because he is a bad driver but because the car is impossible to drive?. Felipe should stay, he has to improve at some point, and it's not like the team has chances to get the WCC.
This should be the last year of Felipe in Ferrari, I think both parties are burn out.
No, that's not the same. His performance at McLaren was top notch but the team were not interested in him winning. Can't imagine anyone at McLaren celebrating if Alonso won the 07 Championship. More like Heike with McLaren, had a great car but was crap. Massa's situation is not the same as Fernando in 07. Anyway long season for Massa and Ferrari to catch up and hopefully the last season to play catch up.
I genuinely don't know how Massa is being treated on here as if he is the biggest problem Ferrari has right now.
But I guess people have to take their frustrations out on someone...
Anyway you will all get your way by the end of the year when we sign God-knows-who to replace him. And to those fans I say - good luck.
Forza Jules
Seems like on here.. if you slag Ferrari you get yelled at.. if you slag Massa you get yelled at...
But since you bought it up.. I think that Ferrari are seriously stinking up the place. Reminds me of Honda.. spend all that money start developing a car halfway through the previous season and still stink up the joint. Honestly speaking if they cant sort out this car soon then we are nothing more than a mid-field team with a great history at the moment.
the Bulls, McLarens and even Lotus and Merc have left us dangling with some serious lack of for-sight and ingenuity to come up with something sharp that people want to copy. I am and always will be Ferrari first but I feel sorry for Alonso. After the drive he has put in for us.. that we cannot give him a car that is capable is seriously dis-heartening. Hope he can pull a Schumacher and push the team back from the precipice.. I am seriously not seeing any other great leaders at Ferrari at the moment like we had with Todt, Brawn and Bryne earlier this decade.
we're number one
Really, a Ferrari forum and you get yelled at for running the team down, not hard to work it out maybe
This forum was born to get away from the yelling at Ferrari we can get at every other F1 forum on the internet....It's fine to speak about our problems but there is a right way to go about it.
Forza Ferrari
Point taken and I agree with how top teams must go for both titles.
As regards your question: all things being equal, Massa has a shot at number 3 or 4 in your list. Just an honest opinion, mate--no sentimentality. He has matched or even beaten everyone on there bar Fernando and Michael.
Bookmarks