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Thread: The Reality Of The Situation

  1. #31
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    I think he is at least partly right, and mocking him to avoid answering his points is quite a trollish behaviour.

    Team principals must have some stability to create a winning team, and even Ferrari's dream team needed several years for this, but Domenicalli strikes me as too soft for this position too. I still trust he can do his magic, but each year that passes I'm more uncertain.

    Massa should have been shown the door earlier probably, or at least being signed a shorter contract after his accident, I'm sure there were clauses that could be used for this, my guess is the team sacrificed performance for good PR... not understanding that haters are gonna hate regardless, there's no converting them, they should only focus on fans and neutrals and to sway those they need success. Massa was never good with bad cars unlike other top drivers, and while he is good with good cars, he isn't fast enough to win a title on his own unless he has a rocket of a car (he did in 2008 and failed by the slightest margin, against a mistake-prone Hamilton), and as we saw in 2010, he is unable to cover the back of the nr1 driver once he is designated as nr2, he simply isn't fast enough for that. So yes, I guess this year he will be out, regardless of performance (although it's unlikely he will start to perform great now).

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by True Fan View Post
    What ''they'' are doing DOES-NOT-WORK

    Do you understand this.

    Can you see this.

    IT DOES NOT WORK.

    Massa as a second driver......DOES NOT WORK. Not only he is a poor excuse for a top driver who handicaps us in the constructors, he's cant even play wingman to alonso because he's crashing into hamilton, messing about in the midfields or about 30 seconds behind the main battle where Alonso is being sandwiched by mclarens and red bulls.

    Stefano Dominecali as a team principal....DOES NOT WORK. When you are TP, the buck stops with you, constant and regular bad tactical decisions for which other members of staff have been demoted, shocking development of cars in the off season, for which members of staff have been fired, consistent ignorance of the rules and loopholes ferrari could have exploited, consistently promising the team will deliver when infact they do not. The man is not a leader, thats clear, he is not ruthless, what he is a very nice guy and HR Manager who is in way over his head.

    Do you accept that what these personnel are doing is not working? Or do we hve to endure another crappy season where we are a second a lap behind from the season start before you get it?

    Did you actually read what I said? Stop acting like you are the only person who thinks we have a problem!!

    What i'm debating is your arrogance at believing that YOU know how to fix it. You have an issue with certain drivers and team members (obviously) but no idea at all where the issue is. All you bring to the discussion is angry supposition because you have decided who your own scapegoats are to make you feel better by demanding that they must be replaced.

    Pretty stunningly arrogant given that its based on your opinion only.

    "Luna faccia schiaffo testa"

  3. #33
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    Can someone please round up the Fredifosi for me?

    "Luna faccia schiaffo testa"

  4. #34
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    Domenicali in 2011: 'this will be our last disappointing year'

  5. #35
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    I think there are a few 'true fans' in Italy and you just need to have a look at some Italian forums to realise we're very polite fans. I was very excited about 2012 and most teams look sorted but Ferrari, this is obviously a big disappointment. I undestand SD is asking for patience but patience can go no further than 1st or 2nd European GP, then true fans will be asking for blood in Italy.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheeseman View Post
    You had a 160 opinions in the race thread. You judged everyone at Ferrari and you don't know them either....
    Again? I had an OPINION!!!!!!!! Do you understand that word? And mine opinion is that Stefano may not be the right person on the possition he has. Why are you still bashing me? I didn't judged ANYONE!!! You judged me with your first post. I was only saying what I think about Stefano's leading skills, I was not judging him. What are you trying to accomplish here? And why are you making up things I have never said? There are people that can ensure you, I am an loyal fan.

    "If he can't do it with Ferrari, well, he can't do it." - John Surtees

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyss4k View Post
    From your posts, you are making yourself look as arogant as him. How can you judge people, you don't know? You are doing it based only on your opinion. Exactly like he does.

    I think you both are overreacting a bit. He is right, that in EVERY company, the leader is responsible and he has to deal with it and without results, it's time to give a chance to someone else. I am not 100% sure that's the case with Stefano, but I as well kind of have this feeling

    You are right about moaning fans. It's really for nothing and we are only torturing ourselves (and I imagine that even the readers of our messages...)
    The difference is that this is a Ferrari support forum and not a "moan and refund if not entirely happy with Ferrari" forum for driver fans and people who knee-jerk at disappointment after day 1 of the season. If it's wrong to defend the nature of the forum then i'll stick with my right to be arrogant in favour of the name above the door thanks

    Defending being called delusional because I won't agree with the assumption that the world is over and everyone should be sacked is hardly overreacting really imo

    "Luna faccia schiaffo testa"

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrarichamp View Post
    Domenicali in 2011: 'this will be our last disappointing year'
    He was right. This year started with a disaster qual already

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post
    Did you actually read what I said? Stop acting like you are the only person who thinks we have a problem!!

    What i'm debating is your arrogance at believing that YOU know how to fix it. You have an issue with certain drivers and team members (obviously) but no idea at all where the issue is. All you bring to the discussion is angry supposition because you have decided who your own scapegoats are to make you feel better by demanding that they must be replaced.

    Pretty stunningly arrogant given that its based on your opinion only.
    I did not claim to have all the answers, and as others have pointed out, the fact you are running away from the actual argument by creating mini arguments that no one put forward is symptomatic of your kind.

    Weak minded individuals who are only interested in showing some kind of ''loyalty'' to Ferrari and getting brownie points over the internet. Its like cub-scouts gone wrong.

    When something doesn't work, you change it or fix it.

    Massa needs to be changed asap, and im surprised i have to justify the reasons why when his results say it all.

    Dominecali should have been shown the door ages ago too, again, the reasons are pretty obvious to anyone with a brain.

    In terms of technical reasons for car under-performing, the question is, do Ferrari even understand why the car lacks fundamental grip? I tell you one thing, I may not know, they may not know, buT one man who you can be sure doesnt know is ''we need to improve fast'' HR Manager dominecali, who clearly isnt cut out to be a TP in the number one team in F1.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by True Fan View Post
    I did not claim to have all the answers, and as others have pointed out, the fact you are running away from the actual argument by creating mini arguments that no one put forward is symptomatic of your kind.

    Weak minded individuals who are only interested in showing some kind of ''loyalty'' to Ferrari and getting brownie points over the internet. Its like cub-scouts gone wrong.

    When something doesn't work, you change it or fix it.

    Massa needs to be changed asap, and im surprised i have to justify the reasons why when his results say it all.

    Dominecali should have been shown the door ages ago too, again, the reasons are pretty obvious to anyone with a brain.

    In terms of technical reasons for car under-performing, the question is, do Ferrari even understand why the car lacks fundamental grip? I tell you one thing, I may not know, they may not know, bu one man who you can be sure doesnt know is ''we need to improve fast'' HR Manager dominecali, who clearly isnt cut out to be a TP in the number one team in F1.
    I give up. You don't read. You just moan and assume. Loyalty has nothing to do with this subject, which is knee-jerk reactions to adversity.

    Weak minded individuals assume and blame which is the easy route, and do not have the strength of character to reason beyond their own personal feelings and formed opinions and prejudices. Being ruled by your emotions and not by your head and stamping your feet at the first sign of trouble in a new season may make the weak minded feel better in the short term but it has nothing to do with the reality of the situation. That's all supposition on your part.

    We all know there is a problem. I can say definitively that if Ferrari don't know what it is then you certainly dont.

    Enjoy

    "Luna faccia schiaffo testa"

  11. #41
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    I will agree with True Fan if I will see the same shameful display in a race tomorrow. It's a bit too early to rage imo.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post
    The difference is that this is a Ferrari support forum and not a "moan and refund if not entirely happy with Ferrari" forum for driver fans and people who knee-jerk at disappointment after day 1 of the season. If it's wrong to defend the nature of the forum then i'll stick with my right to be arrogant in favour of the name above the door thanks

    Defending being called delusional because I won't agree with the assumption that the world is over and everyone should be sacked is hardly overreacting really imo
    I just wanted to say, that you both are right in certain points, but few of them seems little... harsh? (I don't have so good vocabulary, excuse me )

    Of course there will be people moaning after what was said last season and early pre-season and of course it's not reasonable. But there is no way around it. Of course Felipe is not performing as well as the fans hope he would and of course person of the head possition has to take responsibility for the actions of the company (in this case F1 team).

    But there is no reason to make it extreme here on forums, isn't it? We are all fans of one hell of a team and fighting between ourselfs is not, what is helping in situation we are in. These were peaceful forums while ago :(

    "If he can't do it with Ferrari, well, he can't do it." - John Surtees

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post
    I
    We all know there is a problem. I can say definitively that if Ferrari don't know what it is then you certainly dont.

    Enjoy
    I can definitively say that Felipe Massa is a big part of the issues at ferrari of late and that he has no business driving for us anymore.

    Same applies to Dominecali in regards to being team principal.

    In regards to the car, i want to know what went on in the simulator and how they came to the conclusion that what they were developing was going to be a competitive car, because from what i can see, this isnt a case of Adrian newey beating us by coming up with an aerodynamic game changer, this is F1 car which seems to lack fundamental grip period.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by True Fan View Post
    Long Time Reader of this forum.

    Had to make a passing comment regarding the conduct of some of the \\\'\\\'fans\\\' of this \\\'discussion forum\\\' and the reality of the situation Ferrari are in.

    Formula one is all about relentlessness, that\\\'s the whole point of the sport, relentless development, relentless improvement, you win a race, you immediately think about how to get better as a driver, how to develop the car further, how to find more loopholes in the rules, how to cheat/lie or get the upper hand on your competition by ANY MEANS NECESSARY. To do this, you need a certain type of individual......a ruthless individual to some extent, this is why if you look at some of the true great drivers, guys like senna , schumacher, they had that ruthlessness, that \\\'\\\'i am going to win by any means needed because I am better than you\\\'\\\'\\\'

    Ferrari had this mentality once a upon a time, ruthless team headed by one of the most uncompromising drivers ever seen. No respect for others, no respect for the \\\'\\\'rules\\\'\\\' (whatever they are), WIN, that is all that matters.

    Ferrari have lost that mentality. This is part of the problem. They have a ruthless \\\'\\\'whatever it takes\\\' number one driver. But are headed by a team principal who should NEVER have been allowed to get to be team principal. I suspect he got there because of internal politics, because this man signifies everything that is wrong with the current ferrari.....WEAK. The man is out of his depth, and you can come at me with as much vitriol and fanboyism as you like, but only truly deluded \\\'\\\'tifosi\\\'\\\' belive this man is the correct choice. He has no buisness being a TP and it\\\'s disgrace that men have lost their jobs and yet he continues hang onto his job despite the obvious failings that have taken place over his watch.

    Felipe Massa.

    Another underperformer who has no business driving for a team like Ferrari. Again, the fanboys can throw the toys out of the pram till kingdom come. He has been poor for a good while now and his performance in qualifying today was nothing short of an embarrassment. The fact that he still drives a ferrari shows the weakness of the current management, in my view, Ferrari is the pinnacle of this sport, you dont get a free pass and if you cant deliver then you get the hell out and go to a midfield team and cry about your trouble. This team is for WINNERS, not out on their luck nearly men who are clearly not good enough.

    Thirdly these so called \'true fans\', the one accept defeat, the ones who almost embrace defeat, the\' we\'\'ll try again next year\'s, the \'\'its only a sport\'s \'\'thing\'s will get better\'\'s.

    That\'s called Loser Mentality or victim mentality. Thats not being a true fan, thats called not facing up to reality, burying your head in the sand, being soft, exactly the kind of things manifesting in the ferrari team over the last few years.

    The likelyhood is that this season is already finished, its not impossible to come back, but its very difficult to pull back a second a lap from the top teams, who will also continue to develop, especially teams like Mclaren who are very good at in season development, red bull may turn up the wick when they come up with a better exhaust config.

    If this carries on, Alonso will have to consider moving on too, because the man is a born winner, and wants to win championships, he wants to win them with ferrari, but a few more pathetic starts to the season like this, and you wonder.

    Oh and dont use lack of testing as an excuse, the other teams go by the same rules with fewer resources and they have produced cars as good as or better than ours.

    Ferrari is not a playground......... its very simple........... Perform or get out.
    I feel that there is a lot of truth in this post, although of course everybody should be left to their own opinion, and if some people want to bury their heads in the sand (to quote the post itself), so be it.

    As I said several times previously, the opinions stated here are based on speculation - we do not know how the team runs, what it does internally, what it knows and doesn't know, etc.

    On the other hand, some of us have followed so many F1 world championships that we have at least some experience of what correlates to what - the fact, for example, that if you have a car which 1 to 1.5 seconds off pace in the first race, the probability of winning the championship is already very slim. It's not about writing off a season after half a race - we may well win it tomorrow and everyone will have to shut up - but the realities are that, no matter what people say, this car had to be a winner from day one (and so the 2011 one for that purpose).

    I suspect that if good old Enzo was still alive, well he may not have said exactly what True Fan has said, but the part about being weak, too soft, etc. he would not have tolerated. After all, and I've seen this written in someone's footer here, he once said that "Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines." - and that to me reflects the fighting, aggressive, uncompromising spirit that, yes indeed, Ferrari seems to have lost in recent history. I once watched a film about his life, and the phrase that I kept remembering was the simplest ever: "piu' veloce", which means faster!

    By saying all this, though, I don't think that any of us can say that we know the solution. Who are we to challenge the team of professionals at Maranello? All we can do is to speak as passionate fans, who observe from a distance, and make up their mind about what the problems could be. At the risk of sounding too repetitive, all we do is speculate.

    I consider myself as a true fan - I even bought some 2012 Ferrari clothing to wear during qualifying and race sessions , so of course I am terribly disappointed with the result. I am absolutely sure that there is one thing we all agree on: we are very disappointed, furious I'd dare say, at the fact that they haven't been able to make a competitive race car after more than 8 months of development. Why has this happened we don't know, and how to address the situation we don't know either.

    But the results speak for themselves - we are almost 2 seconds away from our eternal rivals, and many teams from the midfield have climbed up, leaving us behind.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post
    Greig, I think you need to ban "True Fan" if you are to be true to his own unchallengeable logic as the ultimate Ferrari fan.

    As a long time reader (how many seasons have we had to wait?) - he has only just managed to start posting here and his post is full of //////s.

    TSN is not a playground......... its very simple........... Perform or get out.
    There is a technical explanation behind the //////s in the post (word of an IT guy), I am sure they were not typed voluntarily.

  16. #46
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    True fan I am glad you are not in control of Ferrari.
    With your attitude I fear you would "exterminate" those who did not match your exacting standards.
    Must admit I would quite like to be the fly on the wall at your place of work. Would I award you an A+

  17. #47
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    Don't get me wrong I am not so keen on the head to head going on here but I have a quick point to make related to the subject.

    Is there any senior managers, directors, executives here in charge of teams working in competitive fields such as sales,marketing, recruitment...? The team does not bill in good figures for awhile, people have been sacked and replaced and still no sign of improvement has been made, what happens to you after a quarter or 2 max, not 4 years? What ever the size of the business, it's only so far your excuses will take you before you get shown the door.

    Just trying to put things out of context here nothing more!

    "I cannot judge what he did in his time at Renault and McLaren but I have worked with World Champions Schumacher, Villeneuve and Raikkonen and Fernando is the one who impresses me the most," said Gene.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by racingbradley View Post
    True fan I am glad you are not in control of Ferrari.
    With your attitude I fear you would "exterminate" those who did not match your exacting standards.
    Must admit I would quite like to be the fly on the wall at your place of work. Would I award you an A+
    Massa is a not up to par, probably never was, in his prime he was a great lights to flag man, nothing more, his race craft has never really been all that in my view. No point in having a driver who can only perform up to standard if the car is amazing, you need guys who can hustle a car, he's got to go, its over for him.

    As far as the car itself, Im not an engineer, but you do wonder if they did radical things on the car simply for the sake of being different. I do feel bad for them in a way, cos everyone was calling on them to be radical rather than evolve, but certain things like the front pull rod, ive seen a few comments from people in the know saying they dont see the point of it.

  19. #49
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    Fredifosis was a new word for me. But I like it. Gives balance to this place, since all moderators are Felippiosis, with all big hearts...wanting to gather everybody in a circle singing we shall overcome....and pray for Stefano, and pretend there isn┤t a real world outside of this community, where there is a F1-championship being held.

    Anything bad about Stefano or Felipe, the threat of warning or ban is posted quicker than the blink of an eye.

  20. #50
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    Isnt this the 1st race's QUALI :O


    Arent we jumping the gun :P
    4 down, 3 to go! Forza Sebastian!

  21. #51
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    Anyone here remember when enzo cleaned house of all the team management..





    Quote Originally Posted by NanoTheQuickest View Post
    Don't get me wrong I am not so keen on the head to head going on here but I have a quick point to make related to the subject.

    Is there any senior managers, directors, executives here in charge of teams working in competitive fields such as sales,marketing, recruitment...? The team does not bill in good figures for awhile, people have been sacked and replaced and still no sign of improvement has been made, what happens to you after a quarter or 2 max, not 4 years? What ever the size of the business, it's only so far your excuses will take you before you get shown the door.

    Just trying to put things out of context here nothing more!
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  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheeseman View Post
    You had a 160 opinions in the race thread. You judged everyone at Ferrari and you don't know them either....
    Cheeseman, Tony asked you and Kyss4k in that other thread nicely to stop arguing. Now please stop slanging personal insults to and fro and just discuss the thread subject. Ta!
    Forza Jules

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curbs View Post

    Anything bad about Stefano or Felipe, the threat of warning or ban is posted quicker than the blink of an eye.
    Where have bans been threatened for people complaining about Stefano and/or Felipe?
    Forza Jules

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    No, it hasnt been great start. But the race is tomorrow, it long season, it isnt over yet. The team has said, it complex car. Once new updates arrive and they can fully unlock the speed of it, we will be fine. Season has just started, well, not yet and people on here calling for heads to roll and we go have bad year. The team needs to be stable and gell as 1 to get us winning. With Pat Fry at the helm we heading in right direction. This isnt as bad as the 80s and 90s. Support the team, dont knock them and shout for their heads.
    CAVALLINO RAMPANTE PER SEMPRE

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    Quote Originally Posted by F2002 View Post
    There is a technical explanation behind the //////s in the post (word of an IT guy), I am sure they were not typed voluntarily.
    Yes, and quite surprising to see the OP mocked because of it.. Ironically the mocking comes from those accusing others of "criticizing Ferrari despite not knowing how the team is run".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
    No, it hasnt been great start. But the race is tomorrow, it long season, it isnt over yet. The team has said, it complex car. Once new updates arrive and they can fully unlock the speed of it, we will be fine. Season has just started, well, not yet and people on here calling for heads to roll and we go have bad year. The team needs to be stable and gell as 1 to get us winning. With Pat Fry at the helm we heading in right direction. This isnt as bad as the 80s and 90s. Support the team, dont knock them and shout for their heads.
    Heard the same thing last year, the year before that and the year before that.

    Ask yourself. This car was in development since last season right? What data where they looking at that was telling them that this car in its current incarnation could be close to competitive? Because all i can see is a car understeering and slipping and sliding around all the time, infact the fact ferrari are so slow in the speed traps (alonso comments) could indicate that they ramped up the wing levels for downforce, I wonder, did we really have to wait till jerez to work out ''actually, we have a serious problem here''?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curbs View Post
    Fredifosis was a new word for me. But I like it. Gives balance to this place, since all moderators are Felippiosis, with all big hearts...wanting to gather everybody in a circle singing we shall overcome....and pray for Stefano, and pretend there isn┤t a real world outside of this community, where there is a F1-championship being held.

    Anything bad about Stefano or Felipe, the threat of warning or ban is posted quicker than the blink of an eye.
    You confuse people with a vested interest in one driver primarily and who follow our team as a consequence - who hang around here for one reason only

    The ones that do that and follow Massa don't tend to blame Ferrari for his limitations.

    Also, if sacking Massa meant that Ferrari would win the WDC or WCC this year then ALL Ferrari fans would want it. It's not the situation and it's just the people who like a scapegoat that use his performance as an excuse to say such pointless things. If Ferrari wanted to do it THEY WOULD DO IT - not wait for armchair pundits to suggest it!

    Not believing that sacking Domenicali will fix things does not make you believe anything else other than that. Those of us with "Football Manager" mentalities can bleat on and scapegoat all they like. Doesn't mean they are right though.

    Football teams change their managers all the time and STILL REMAIN THE SAME. It's all about measured response and not anger/testosterone fuelled reactions to things they dont understand fully.

    "Luna faccia schiaffo testa"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sha1 View Post
    Yes, and quite surprising to see the OP mocked because of it.. Ironically the mocking comes from those accusing others of "criticizing Ferrari despite not knowing how the team is run".
    and what position to you hold in the organisation then?

    "Luna faccia schiaffo testa"

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    Red Bull were never fast in the speed traps last year, look what they still won at the end of year. I dont have to ask myself anything. Instead of running them down show support, so what we had bad session and look like slipping and sliding, tomorrow is where it counts. The car will be mighty soon.
    CAVALLINO RAMPANTE PER SEMPRE

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    F60 in q2 was faster than this ...................... something

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