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Thread: The Reality Of The Situation

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonsofan2002 View Post
    reubens earned points,made a lot of 1-2 finish while at Ferrari.massa is not doing the same.
    Rubens had the best car on the grid... I bet you were happy for Massa to be in the team though when he had to move over at Hockenheim 2010?

  2. #152
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    Firstly, I think we did alot of damage limitation and got a bit lucky with FA. #5 was a good achievement.

    But having said that, I think we are a little down hill with this years' car. Also, the F150 from last year.

    Ferrari is a throughbred racing team.. with many years of history in racing behind them and a long string of wins.

    This must continue to return to us at some point.

    Constructively, I think we need to look at some new talents. Both in the area of car design and driver package.

    While easier said than done from my keyboard, I am sure Ferrari by now will know that FM cannot be that far behind FA.

    He has been playing catch up to FA for a long while now.

    I have met FM in person. He is a great guy, very friendly and accommodating to the fans.

    But I cannot see him contributing to WCC anytime soon if his performance doesnt improves.

    However, he is not nearly a bit the biggest issue we have.

    Its the car! We need to fix the car. We can have any best drivers driving it and we still wont achieve much.

    Its pretty heart breaking when we lost WDC in 2008 and 2 years ago, havent been able to fight for WCC for some years now.

    I wish Ferrari many successes ahead. Hope they find a solution soon.

    I would gladly clean their garage if they allo me to help :)

    Until then, I will be hoping for the best and will be at Sepang in a week from now.

    Good luck and Forza Ferrari as they say....

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by gp.limjoco View Post
    I've been reading the forums for more than 3 years now and it is my first ever post. I've been a tifosi since I was 8 and for the past 16 years, I've seen all the good and the bad and I must say that I feel more passion for the prancing horse during times of crisis (97,86,99,05,09,10,11) compared to the glory years of Schumi. Today, I cheered for Fernando to get that 5th as hard when i was rooting for old Schumi to beat Hakkinen at Suzuka in 2000.

    Nonetheless, I feel there is something lacking in today's Scuderia compared to the past. There is no longer that all conquering confidence you'd expect from the greatest F1 team in history. There is no longer that aura of invincibility that we once enjoyed and took for granted in the early 2000s. Still, I do think that the personnel we have (From SD, Fry, Tombazis etc.) is the best that we can get at the moment and we must make do with the pieces we have. I don not think that we LDM should sack SD or Pat Fry if we do not win the WDC and WCC in 2012. Building a dynasty takes years. Todt, Brawn, Byrne and Schumi needed half a decade to do it and they are a much more gifted bunch than the team we have now. Ferrari have changed to a new team dynamic and design philosophy and as much as we would like it, great results will not come instantly. There is no magic bullet to the problems the team faces now.

    As for the drivers, I cannot say more about Alonso. What he did today proved that the driver is still the best component we can put in a car. Massa, however, sadly needs to go. if not this season then surely the next. He is just as important to the WDC as much as the WCC. His current purpose, as a no. 2, is to take away as much points as he can from the McL and RB boys because both teams have the "disadvantage" of catering to the serious WDC aspirations of both their drivers. However, since the latter part of 2010, Massa has been nowhere near the top 5. He has basically been a sideshow gobbled up by the midfield. Say what you want on how Rubens could not keep up with Schumi but at least he had Michael's back for the most part which Felipe clearly cannot do for Fernando now. Massa is not Ferrari standard and we should let him go.


    Still, I am optimistic for 2012. Ferrari will always be Ferrari. They have smart people in there who can do the job. Just give Fernando a decent car and he'll do the rest. Believe in the team.
    Hello and welcome aboard

    Its hard to tell what's changed in Ferrari, many personal have come and gone, there ought to be some changes in team's philosophy and so on as different minds come into the team, and it seems we have fallen behind of late, at least on the technical side. I certainly do hope that somehow, the team could get back to the way they were during Schumi's success. The F2012 design does indicates that we may be taking a more aggressive approach now. It still remains to be seen if it works, but I think its good that at least we're trying something.

    Well, I still have a lot of faith in Luca Montezemolo. He was the guy who was there in the beginning of Ferrari's revival in both their road car business and racing involvement. I trust that he will be able to bring the team back up. He has a plan when he signed Alonso for long term and start changing people in the team. I agree with you there, that this is a long term resurgence. There's no use in sacking Stefano or Pat Fry, they are not expected to turn the team around instantly. Luca trust them, and so should we.

    As for Massa, only he knows whats going on with him. He knows what's at stake this year. Again, Luca felt that Massa should have this year as another chance to prove himself, so I think we should trust Luca to know what he's doing. As much as I like Massa, I too have to admit that this year is the last chance Massa will have, as his contract runs out by the end of the year. If he doesn't recover this season, then chances are he will not get a new contract.

    Lets see what happens this year. Though regardless of what happens, its probably best for the team to not replace Massa in the middle of the season as it takes time for a new driver to jump into a car in the middle of the season, with the lack of testing.

    If Luca feels its time to bring in a younger fresh blood, then we'll do it the proper way at the end of the season.

  4. #154
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    To be fair to FM, give him the proper tools first, then judge his performance.

    I hope this happens soon. The car needs to be fixed before the team reaches the European segment, else, we would be playing catch up again for the year.

    But being Ferrari, I know they will prevail at some point.

    So I will wait for that to happen patiently :)

    But at times its getting a little stressful when watching us being beaten like a mid class team...

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddie View Post
    To be fair to FM, give him the proper tools first, then judge his performance.
    What about Alonso? Is he not using the same "tools"? Or should there be a different set, dependant upon driver performance/ability/results?
    In which case, I would suggest there is a fundamental problem with that philosophy/work ethic!

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheeseman View Post
    Rubens had the best car on the grid... I bet you were happy for Massa to be in the team though when he had to move over at Hockenheim 2010?
    Massa car is equal too Alonso,Yet he can not deliver the same results.
    massa moving over was nothing new,reubens moved oved for MS also.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddie View Post
    To be fair to FM, give him the proper tools first, then judge his performance.
    Firstly let me say I'm not bashing Massa here, this is just a is just a general statement aimed at no one...

    But the driver we need is one that is capable of making the best of the car. I've seen many people saying that a driver should be given a fast car first, but do you really want a driver that can only do well with a fast car?

    Make no mistake Ferrari is going to face many challenges. We were lucking in 2002-2004 that we're able to enjoy such dominance, but those luck doesn't happen all the time. Our car will not be perfect, our drivers will face many challenge and we need them to be able to make the best of a difficult situation.

    The best benchmark for a driver's ability is to compare between team mate as they both have the same tool. If team mate A can get so and so performance out of a car, then we know that our car is capable of such performance, however difficult it may be. Hence, we need driver B to get something similar too. If there's a large gap, then we have to ask our self, what's going on?

    Again, I'm not bashing Massa. In fact, I hope Massa just need more time with the car and eventually, he'll get closer to Alonso's performance. We'll see.

  8. #158
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    We all know that FA is the best package in F1.

    LDM acknowledges it himself and I do not at one moment think otherwise.

    But what I am saying is FM cannot be judged this year if the car is to be what it is.

    FM is not a nearly close to FA but question is who will be if given the same red car to drive?

    So, before we all throw in the towel on FM this year. I am saying give him the car first.

    If the results are the same as last year and the year before that, then to be fair to Ferrari, they should replace FM.

    Its sad but team always preceeds before driver... something not so easy when you are a F1 driver and not driving so well...

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheeseman View Post
    Rubens had the best car on the grid... I bet you were happy for Massa to be in the team though when he had to move over at Hockenheim 2010?

    "Luna faccia schiaffo testa"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonsofan2002 View Post
    Massa car is equal too Alonso,Yet he can not deliver the same results.
    massa moving over was nothing new,reubens moved oved for MS also.

    As an Alonso fan, what is your interest here?

    To stir the pot? , or are you seriously suggesting that swapping Massa now will win us the WCC?

    You are not primarily a Ferrari fan (as your moniker makes clear) so is it that you want Massa to be a better rear gunner for your boy's WDC Campaign?

    Nail your colours to the mast if you like but don't be vague when you are rubbishing part of the team that this Forum supports (Fredifosi aside that is )

    "Luna faccia schiaffo testa"

  11. #161
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    Agree with your points Hornet,

    I probably will be nailed by saying this but who do you think is as close as it gets to FA's package?

    Trust me, not many.. prob. JB, LH, SV and RK?

    Given time, I think Perez should be a good candidate to develop.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddie View Post
    Firstly, I think we did alot of damage limitation and got a bit lucky with FA. #5 was a good achievement.

    But having said that, I think we are a little down hill with this years' car. Also, the F150 from last year.

    Ferrari is a throughbred racing team.. with many years of history in racing behind them and a long string of wins.

    This must continue to return to us at some point.

    Constructively, I think we need to look at some new talents. Both in the area of car design and driver package.

    While easier said than done from my keyboard, I am sure Ferrari by now will know that FM cannot be that far behind FA.

    He has been playing catch up to FA for a long while now.

    I have met FM in person. He is a great guy, very friendly and accommodating to the fans.

    But I cannot see him contributing to WCC anytime soon if his performance doesnt improves.

    However, he is not nearly a bit the biggest issue we have.

    Its the car! We need to fix the car. We can have any best drivers driving it and we still wont achieve much.

    Its pretty heart breaking when we lost WDC in 2008 and 2 years ago, havent been able to fight for WCC for some years now.

    I wish Ferrari many successes ahead. Hope they find a solution soon.

    I would gladly clean their garage if they allo me to help :)

    Until then, I will be hoping for the best and will be at Sepang in a week from now.

    Good luck and Forza Ferrari as they say....

    This is a great post! well put.
    In driving terms, it's the difference between being very good and possessing the devil of genius.--- Pete Gill on Fernando Alonso

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddie View Post
    Agree with your points Hornet,

    I probably will be nailed by saying this but who do you think is as close as it gets to FA's package?

    Trust me, not many.. prob. JB, LH, SV and RK?

    Given time, I think Perez should be a good candidate to develop.
    Thats a good question. Unfortunately, there's no real way of telling how well a driver can do until we actually put him in our car.

    Only thing is that the team with their knowledge in F1, knows better than us, so they can probably make a better guess but nothing is 100%. This is what teams do, they just try to make the choice they have the most confidence in.

    Ferrari also said that they may pair a upcoming young driver alongside a more experience one. Alonso will retire someday, so the plan is to nurture a new driver so when Alonso retire, the new driver is prepare to take over the lead driver role. Don't know if Ferrari will do this, but its a possibility if they choose not to renew Massa contract.

    As for Massa, unfortunately his contact ends this year, so Ferrari will have to make a decision this year. But I don't think Luca is in a hurry, so there's still time for Massa to improve his situation.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    Thats a good question. Unfortunately, there's no real way of telling how well a driver can do until we actually put him in our car.

    Only thing is that the team with their knowledge in F1, knows better than us, so they can probably make a better guess but nothing is 100%. This is what teams do, they just try to make the choice they have the most confidence in.

    Ferrari also said that they may pair a upcoming young driver alongside a more experience one. Alonso will retire someday, so the plan is to nurture a new driver so when Alonso retire, the new driver is prepare to take over the lead driver role. Don't know if Ferrari will do this, but its a possibility if they choose not to renew Massa contract.

    As for Massa, unfortunately his contact ends this year, so Ferrari will have to make a decision this year. But I don't think Luca is in a hurry, so there's still time for Massa to improve his situation.

    offtopic.. will u be at Sepang this weekend? Since you are from Malaysia...

    i will be there with the Ferrari Club Owners as always ;) would be nice if we can catch up at the track.

    i feel sorry for FM, honestly and at a personal level.

    having been with ferrari enthusiast / owners for a while and seeing him being "knocked" by ferrari owners and fans in many countries isnt something easy.

    there was one event where they sold Ferrari caps and proceeds went to charity...

    everyone wanted a FA cap instead of a FM cap, damn painful to swallow.... bugger me, I bought them all, FM caps.. ;)

    for now, just hope the car gets fixed up soon... pretty please... like soon...

  15. #165
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    Ferrari is a team and Massa is part of that team and yeah he didn't have a great weekend, but whatever he does he seems to become a punchbag on here. He gets treated worse than Lewis by people claiming to be Ferrari fans. What happened to support through thick and thin, it's not like he doesn't care that he is underperforming. Everyone on here joined together to support him when it came to his accident and we were all just hoping he would get the chance to race again, but now he spends each weekend being ripped to shreds. It is not like he has no track record of winning and fighting for championships. There is accepting someone will need to get better results if they want to stay, and then there is just pulling someone apart. I won't stop supporting him and I won't stop supporting Alonso or the team either, whatever the results.
    Last edited by Sianellen; 18th March 2012 at 20:21.

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    That's a lovely post, Sianellen! I'm sure most of us, on a personal level, wish Massa all the best! And, of course, we were all pulling for him after the accident, why wouldn't we? I wouldn't wish ill on any other person, even if they don't drive for Ferrari!! Most of all, I like to believe that, as humans, we understand and attempt to live by the Golden Rule: Do Unto Others as You Would Have Done to You!

    You know, I think it's great that Ferrari has been loyal to Massa, in light of his horrific accident (and in spite of Kimi being the sacrificial lamb when Alonso came to Ferrari)! I understand loyalty. I understand family. I understand trust. I applaud these in any and everyone!

    However, Ferrari is not "only" about loyalty, family and trust! It is a world-wide business, pure and simple. And, as a business, it has some difficult decisions to make in the very near future. Personally, I would not want to be in di Montezemolo's shoes when he faces Ferrari's Board of Directors.

    And, that's the reality of di Montezemolo's job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sagi58 View Post
    That's a lovely post, Sianellen! I'm sure most of us, on a personal level, wish Massa all the best! And, of course, we were all pulling for him after the accident, why wouldn't we? I wouldn't wish ill on any other person, even if they don't drive for Ferrari!! Most of all, I like to believe that, as humans, we understand and attempt to live by the Golden Rule: Do Unto Others as You Would Have Done to You!

    You know, I think it's great that Ferrari has been loyal to Massa, in light of his horrific accident (and in spite of Kimi being the sacrificial lamb when Alonso came to Ferrari)! I understand loyalty. I understand family. I understand trust. I applaud these in any and everyone!

    However, Ferrari is not "only" about loyalty, family and trust! It is a world-wide business, pure and simple. And, as a business, it has some difficult decisions to make in the very near future. Personally, I would not want to be in di Montezemolo's shoes when he faces Ferrari's Board of Directors.

    And, that's the reality of di Montezemolo's job.
    Spot on. You nailed it.

    They just need to fix the car for now. I hope for a better outing for us at SIC.

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sianellen View Post
    Ferrari is a team and Massa is part of that team and yeah he didn't have a great weekend, but whatever he does he seems to become a punchbag on here. He gets treated worse than Lewis by people claiming to be Ferrari fans. What happened to support through thick and thin, it's not like he doesn't care that he is underperforming. Everyone on here joined together to support him when it came to his accident and we were all just hoping he would get the chance to race again, but now he spends each weekend being ripped to shreds. It is not like he has no track record of winning and fighting for championships. There is accepting someone will need to get better results if they want to stay, and then there is just pulling someone apart. I won't stop supporting him and I won't stop supporting Alonso or the team either, whatever the results.
    He had been given a time. I am sorry If you think he had not been. It is more than 2 years from the accident and he still didn't pickup his pace and as much as we can love Felipe, the team has to come first. You hear it even from the drivers. They are doing it for the team and if someone is underperforming for such a long period of time, even that that someone did a great things for the team in past and is one of the nicest guys in the paddock, the team can not suffer because of it. The fans were behind him in 2010 and even at the begining of 2011, but it's just too long now.

    "If he can't do it with Ferrari, well, he can't do it." - John Surtees

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sianellen View Post
    Ferrari is a team and Massa is part of that team and yeah he didn't have a great weekend, but whatever he does he seems to become a punchbag on here. He gets treated worse than Lewis by people claiming to be Ferrari fans. What happened to support through thick and thin, it's not like he doesn't care that he is underperforming. Everyone on here joined together to support him when it came to his accident and we were all just hoping he would get the chance to race again, but now he spends each weekend being ripped to shreds. It is not like he has no track record of winning and fighting for championships. There is accepting someone will need to get better results if they want to stay, and then there is just pulling someone apart. I won't stop supporting him and I won't stop supporting Alonso or the team either, whatever the results.


    I personally believe that Felipe's contract won't be renewed regardless of how he performs for the rest of the season. Therefore I am just going to appreciate him driving for us while I can - I'm a selfish so and so and I like my favourite driver driving for my favourite team, thank you very much.

    I absolutely understand people being disappointed with him today; I'd quite like to give him a good shake myself, but some could express their disappointment in a nicer way, to be honest. 'Punchbag' is a pretty damn accurate word that Sian used.

    Hopefully at a more normal track like Malaysia we will be able to do better in qualifying this time. At least both our drivers made brilliant starts yet again.
    Grazie Felipe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyss4k View Post
    He had been given a time. I am sorry If you think he had not been. It is more than 2 years from the accident and he still didn't pickup his pace and as much as we can love Felipe, the team has to come first. You hear it even from the drivers. They are doing it for the team and if someone is underperforming for such a long period of time, even that that someone did a great things for the team in past and is one of the nicest guys in the paddock, the team can not suffer because of it. The fans were behind him in 2010 and even at the begining of 2011, but it's just too long now.
    I won't lie in that I enjoy him being part of our team because he is my favourite driver, however I have not begged for him to stay and I will understand if the team choose to replace him and I appreciate that you cannot keep someone just based on loyalty if they are not performing. All I have said with my post is that he doesn't deserve the complete and utter one sided bashing he is getting. While he remains part of the team he should be supported just as much as Fernando by Ferrari fans not constantly bashed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sianellen View Post
    I won't lie in that I enjoy him being part of our team however I have not begged for him to stay and I will understand if the team choose to replace him and I appreciate that you cannot keep someone just based on loyalty. All I have said with my post is that he doesn't deserve the completely one sided bashing he is getting. While he remains part of the team he should be supported just as much as Fernando by Ferrari fans not constantly bashed.
    What does he deserve after Gemany 2010? I´m just curious...

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    I don't believe that "everyone" is using Massa as a punching bag and would appreciate not being classified as a "bully" (MY word)!!
    In fact, some of us have been painstakingly conscious of itemizing all our concerns for this year and Massa is just "one" of them.

    However, I can commiserate with Massa fans because I felt the same way when Kimi was being put through the ringer, not so very
    long ago. I would go so far as to remind some Massa fans that they took the opportunity to use Kimi as a punching bag, at the time.

    Karma is a curious thing, eh?

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    Most IMPORTANTLY, the people calling for his head are not doing it from a place of logic. They aren't thinking WCC for 2012 at all.

    "Luna faccia schiaffo testa"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sianellen View Post
    Ferrari is a team and Massa is part of that team and yeah he didn't have a great weekend, but whatever he does he seems to become a punchbag on here. He gets treated worse than Lewis by people claiming to be Ferrari fans. What happened to support through thick and thin, it's not like he doesn't care that he is underperforming. Everyone on here joined together to support him when it came to his accident and we were all just hoping he would get the chance to race again, but now he spends each weekend being ripped to shreds. It is not like he has no track record of winning and fighting for championships. There is accepting someone will need to get better results if they want to stay, and then there is just pulling someone apart. I won't stop supporting him and I won't stop supporting Alonso or the team either, whatever the results.
    It is because people are angry and are looking for someone to blame. Felipe has always been an easy target for some to vent their frustration towards, but they don't look at the big picture. We don't know if there was something wrong with Felipe's car this weekend or if possible what with Ferrari still trying to sort out the F2012 they tried something with Felipe's car that wasn't the same as Alonso's car. The comments post race from Stefano and Fry seems to indicate it was one of the two.

    Stefano - Felipe’s bad Sunday is the result of the Saturday that preceded it: the balance of his car was not right and he paid the price, especially in terms of tyre degradation:

    Fry - A shame for Felipe: we must try and understand why his car was not right from yesterday as today, we saw even more of the consequences of that.
    It's much easier though for many to just blame Felipe. But really Felipe has never been a driver to get more than a car has, but give him a good car and he can be as fast as anyone. I'm sure Ferrari knows this better than anyone and know what is really going on with Felipe, whether he is just not performing as he should or if much is due to the car.

    One thing Ferrari is NOT going to do is toss him after one race the way so many think they should. It is Ferrari that will make the decision on Felipe, so complaining about him on a message board serves no purpose other than to make the folks that do feel better. I suppose they think supporting our drivers through thick and thin is a sign of weakness or something.


    Don't play dumb with me. I'm better at it than you are.

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagi58 View Post
    I don't believe that "everyone" is using Massa as a punching bag
    Where did Sian say that "everyone" was using Massa as a punching bag? She used the word "everyone" in context of "everyone" pulling together after his accident.
    I don't think anyone is classifying you as a "bully" (your word) anyway.
    Grazie Felipe

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    i just hope all of us tifosi just agree on one thing... FM is not the main concern for now.

    Ferrari needs to somehow figure out and fix the red car... i dont see us near any chance of getting a WCC or WDC with this red car that we have now irrespective of who drives for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sagi58 View Post
    I don't believe that "everyone" is using Massa as a punching bag and would appreciate not being classified as a "bully" (MY word)!!
    In fact, some of us have been painstakingly conscious of itemizing all our concerns for this year and Massa is just "one" of them.

    However, I can commiserate with Massa fans because I felt the same way when Kimi was being put through the ringer, not so very
    long ago. I would go so far as to remind some Massa fans that they took the opportunity to use Kimi as a punching bag, at the time.

    Karma is a curious thing, eh?
    I wanted Kimi to go in 2009 because he was our supposed No.1 driver and he was crap. He deserved to go. He didn't try hard enough. Period.

    I am happy for Ferrari to replace Massa if he doesn't improve in line with the team's expectations in 2012 - which is not as No.1 driver. However, I think it has more to do with logic and reason than Karma to be honest, and the people asking for Massa to go after race one are not doing it because they see the WCC for 2012 being unreachable because of that. They are doing it for other reasons.

    We have bigger issues atm than Massa's balance issues after one race.

    "Luna faccia schiaffo testa"

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    Quote Originally Posted by REDARMYSOJA View Post

    One thing Ferrari is NOT going to do is toss him after one race the way so many think they should. It is Ferrari that will make the decision on Felipe, so complaining about him on a message board serves no purpose other than to make the folks that do feel better. I suppose they think supporting our drivers through thick and thin is a sign of weakness or something.
    Remembered a quote from Piero Ferrari at Wrooom this year:

    "I think that today there are many good drivers, two or three who can be described as exceptional and one of them, Fernando, is one of us. We also have Felipe who is a great guy, held in great affection at Ferrari, who has shown that, even alongside an extraordinary driver like Schumacher, with a good car, he too can also be very quick: it is up to us to create the right conditions and maybe we owe him something."

    Grazie Felipe

  29. #179
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by REDARMYSOJA View Post
    ... We don't know if there was something wrong with Felipe's car this weekend or if possible what with Ferrari still trying to sort out the F2012 they tried something with Felipe's car that wasn't the same as Alonso's car. The comments post race from Stefano and Fry seems to indicate it was one of the two...
    It could also be the difference in their driving styles/understanding of the car.

  30. #180
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    Mar 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzie View Post
    Remembered a quote from Piero Ferrari at Wrooom this year:

    "I think that today there are many good drivers, two or three who can be described as exceptional and one of them, Fernando, is one of us. We also have Felipe who is a great guy, held in great affection at Ferrari, who has shown that, even alongside an extraordinary driver like Schumacher, with a good car, he too can also be very quick: it is up to us to create the right conditions and maybe we owe him something."

    So very true. A driver's package is very important, imagine putting LH into a Ferrari seat now. Catastrophic is the word.

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