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Thread: The Reality Of The Situation

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by F2008 View Post
    But personally I think he was driving at his best in 2009.
    Yep I agree. He was great in Silverstone and Nurburgring that year.
    *sigh*
    Grazie Felipe

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    So in essence you think Massa is better than Alonso, and by not beating Alonso it shows Massa is not doing a good job? Is that right?
    In essence, massa Is not better then Alonso never will be.
    massa not doing a good JOB is correct.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post
    You are a driver fan so I don't expect you to understand or indeed show support outside of that. Your simplicity in evaluation is very easy to adopt, but your driver's paymasters are not as simplistic as that i'm glad to say. Massa will go when it's appropriate to Ferrari's campaign, and only a nutter would get rid of him at this point in time with the car we have at the moment. It may happen at the end of the season or earlier - who knows. Unless it creates opportunity for WCC then it's just another issue to handle, not a solution to our biggest one.

    However, you support what you want to dude, i'll support what Ferrari are trying to achieve right now cos i'm not simplistic enough in approach to believe I know better than the team and that only fans know what the reality of the current situation is.

    Please feel free to re-repeat your opinion until Massa goes though. I'm sure it will feel like it was worth it to you when it happens
    and the media is not all positive either.

    I support Ferrari ... I dont support massa.

    you need to use the internet, the media is talking about our team more then you read here dude.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonsofan2002 View Post
    In essence, massa Is not better then Alonso never will be.
    massa not doing a good JOB is correct.
    So what is doing a good job in relation to Alonso? Should Alonso only be 6 tenths ahead of Massa? or less, maybe more?

    Is Alonso not the best driver on the grid for a reason? Who do you suggest Ferrari hires that can do a better job than Alonso?

    It puzzles me that Alonso fans seem to think Massa should be challenging him, while the Massa fans seem quite happy to accept Felipe is not as good in general as Alonso.

    If I was an Alonso only fan then I would be using the current situation as more proof as to why Alonso is the best, not using it to suggest Massa is so rubbish it flatters Alonso, and that a Perez could come in and make life hard for Alonso....but that is just me

    Forza Ferrari

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonsofan2002 View Post
    and the media is not all positive either.

    I support Ferrari ... I dont support massa.

    you need to use the internet, the media is talking about our team more then you read here dude.
    My Lord you are one patronising cookie

    I don't give two hoots what the media says Alonso fan. If your pride is hurt then awwww . If all you care about is that Fernando is driving for a team that the media are disrespectful to then i'm sorry for your angst. Given that you never address any of the points I made I assume this is the real crux of your hissy fit.

    "Luna faccia schiaffo testa"

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Who do you suggest Ferrari hires that can do a better job than Alonso?
    Lewis Hamilton?

    *runs away forever*
    Grazie Felipe

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifosi View Post

    Please feel free to re-repeat your opinion until Massa goes though. I'm sure it will feel like it was worth it to you when it happens
    A lot of people have been saying Massa will be dumped since his first race for Ferrari, so eventually they will be right.

    I'm going to start saying Red Bull will dump Vettel.

    One of these days, I'm going to be right!


    Don't play dumb with me. I'm better at it than you are.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonsofan2002 View Post

    I support Ferrari ... I dont support massa.

    That's a contradiction. If you really support the team you simply have to support both drivers.
    Yes, Fernando is my favourite driver too, but I will always support both drivers because we need both to give Ferrari the title.
    Felipe is a great character, a very nice guy, but if he cannot get himself up to a Ferrari-driver level again then yes, he has to leave.
    But as long as the team supports him, so will I.
    You can run like the wind, but you'll never outrun the Prancing Horse

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzie View Post
    Lewis Hamilton?

    *runs away forever*
    If that day comes, let's run together....
    You can run like the wind, but you'll never outrun the Prancing Horse

  10. #250
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    You're on
    Grazie Felipe

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    So what is doing a good job in relation to Alonso? Should Alonso only be 6 tenths ahead of Massa? or less, maybe more?

    Is Alonso not the best driver on the grid for a reason? Who do you suggest Ferrari hires that can do a better job than Alonso?

    It puzzles me that Alonso fans seem to think Massa should be challenging him, while the Massa fans seem quite happy to accept Felipe is not as good in general as Alonso.

    If I was an Alonso only fan then I would be using the current situation as more proof as to why Alonso is the best, not using it to suggest Massa is so rubbish it flatters Alonso, and that a Perez could come in and make life hard for Alonso....but that is just me
    Its not that I see Alonso as miles ahead of Massa. Or I think we should go out and get a driver that will push Alonso.. However I do think that Massa is under-performing and that he should be replaced with a driver that can either be groomed for the future or who can hit right above the mark that the f2012 makes if not as high as Alonso.

    Massa just drops us further behind the WCC... and honestly maybe Ferrari should get a pay driver and make some money if nothing else. I don't know what the actual position of the F2012 is but it is either really really poor or Massa is severely embarrassing himself in it. I prefer to think the second...
    we're number one

  12. #252
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    wow. you really can't say that massa is underperforming on this site before the mods rain down on you like a tonne of bricks.

    I think everyone should be able to express their views on all aspects of the team.

    Clearly, massa is not performing to the standard which ferrari expects/needs and i assume he is not happy with his performance in the last two years and especially oz. I hope he finds his form once more.

    There is no question that massa is a nice guy and in that respect we should not be suprised if he finishes last or dosen't finish at all. This last comment is a joke, it is a laugh or cry situation i prefer the former.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertie View Post
    wow. you really can't say that massa is underperforming on this site before the mods rain down on you like a tonne of bricks.

    I think everyone should be able to express their views on all aspects of the team.

    Clearly, massa is not performing to the standard which ferrari expects/needs and i assume he is not happy with his performance in the last two years and especially oz. I hope he finds his form once more.

    There is no question that massa is a nice guy and in that respect we should not be suprised if he finishes last or dosen't finish at all. This last comment is a joke, it is a laugh or cry situation i prefer the former.
    When MS was thrashing Eddie - Eddie was the benchmark of Ferrari, MS was just that good

    Rinse and repeat with MS and Rubens....

    Now why is it a shock that Massa is beaten by Alonso?

    Forza Ferrari

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrari4life View Post

    Massa just drops us further behind the WCC... and honestly maybe Ferrari should get a pay driver and make some money if nothing else. I don't know what the actual position of the F2012 is but it is either really really poor or Massa is severely embarrassing himself in it. I prefer to think the second...
    WCC, have you seen the state of our car, and you think Massa is dropping us behind? tell you what when we make a car that is winning races and Massa is not scoring big points I will agree with you.

    Forza Ferrari

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    WCC, have you seen the state of our car, and you think Massa is dropping us behind? tell you what when we make a car that is winning races and Massa is not scoring big points I will agree with you.
    If our ultimate goal is not the WCC for 2012 then might as well pack up and go home and show up in 2013. Until we figure out that we cannot get the car to complete for the 2012 WCC...we should be trying to get as many points as possible. And Massa doesn't seem to be pulling his weight around.

    On the flip side if what you say is true then we might as well start concentrating on 2013.
    we're number one

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    And that a Perez could come in and make life hard for Alonso....but that is just me
    I'll rather have Koboyashi than Perez in Ferrari. The Mexican is a great driver in my view, but he appears more conservative than his team mate during the race.

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    WCC, have you seen the state of our car, and you think Massa is dropping us behind? tell you what when we make a car that is winning races and Massa is not scoring big points I will agree with you.
    Greig has a point.Silverstone 2011 Felipe only missed 4th. because of Lewis Mctractor!!
    1. Fernando Alonso Spain Ferrari-Ferrari 52 laps 1hr 28m 41.196s
    2. Sebastian Vettel Germany Red Bull-Renault +00m 16.5s
    3. Mark Webber Australia Red Bull-Renault +00m 16.9s
    4. Lewis Hamilton Britain McLaren-Mercedes +00m 28.9s
    5. Felipe Massa Brazil Ferrari-Ferrari +00m 29.0s
    6. Nico Rosberg Germany Mercedes-Mercedes +01m 00.6s
    7. Sergio Perez Mexico Sauber-Ferrari +01m 05.6s
    8. Nick Heidfeld Germany Renault-Renault +01m 15.5s
    9. Michael Schumacher Germany Mercedes-Mercedes +01m 17.90s
    10. Jaime Alguersuari Spain Toro Rosso-Ferrari +01m 19.10s

  18. #258
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    It's been one race, in 2008 Massa made mistakes in the opening 2 races, he went on to challenge for the title....

    Forza Ferrari

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    When MS was thrashing Eddie - Eddie was the benchmark of Ferrari, MS was just that good

    Rinse and repeat with MS and Rubens....

    Now why is it a shock that Massa is beaten by Alonso?
    Eddie was good, liked him, but there were other drivers better than him that would have been a more accurate reflection of Ferrari back then. Remember the carrots a certain Mika Salo gave him?
    Rubens was great, just lacked that extra bit of a aggression. Then again if Schumey wasn't at Ferrari during the Brazilian's time, then Barrichello would have at least won a couple of WDC in the German's car.
    And let's not forget that Byrne designed the cars around Schumacher's driving style.

    Other than that, I agree, no shock that Alonso leads Massa. I'm just disappointed that Massa was sharper during the race, and closer to his team mate in 2010, but then again there are other factors like the tyres and etc.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    When MS was thrashing Eddie - Eddie was the benchmark of Ferrari, MS was just that good

    Rinse and repeat with MS and Rubens....

    Now why is it a shock that Massa is beaten by Alonso?
    There is no shock that Alonso out-performs the team’s number 2. What does come as a shock is the manner in which the race slips from Massa’s grasp so regularly. I have not expected him to win races for the last two years but he should be in the mix, scoring points and interrupting the race strategies of the other teams.

    He is not fulfilling the role of a number 2, a very important role at Ferrari throughout history.

    I have one question to those who have so valiantly come to the defence of Massa: Are you happy with Massa’s performance in the last 2 years?

    I do not support getting rid of him now that would be ridiculous and would not benefit the team in the short term.

    The Massa era is sadly coming to an end, I hope it is dignified. I also hope he goes with a smile on his face and a hat full of championship points, but I will not hold my breath on the latter.

  21. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertie View Post
    There is no shock that Alonso out-performs the team’s number 2. What does come as a shock is the manner in which the race slips from Massa’s grasp so regularly. I have not expected him to win races for the last two years but he should be in the mix, scoring points and interrupting the race strategies of the other teams.
    Alonso lost loads of time after the SC compared to Vettel who he was racing pretty well with to that point, does that not suggest something in the car as the fuel load goes down it becomes a lot harder to maintain a decent pace?

    Massa himself admits his performances are not what he wants, he was pretty unlucky last year though and terrible pitstops, strategy and Lewis did not help him get much breaks. Ferrari and Massa know it's make or break year and have clearly stated it, everyone knows that, so I expect Ferrari will give him the season, calls to sack him now are just ridiculous, I don't see why any Ferrari fan should take any pleasure from one of our drivers not having a good time, as some on here seem to do.

    Forza Ferrari

  22. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Massa himself admits his performances are not what he wants, he was pretty unlucky last year though and terrible pitstops, strategy and Lewis did not help him get much breaks.
    What Lewis did to him last year was pretty much what drivers in the 80s and 90s and even way before that they use to do. As well most of the Lewis vs Massa incidents always came about when Lewis was chasing him, not the other way.

  23. #263
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    Another thing that amused me was when Massa went off in practice it was cause he sucked, when Alonso done it in Qual it was cause the car sucked....

    Forza Ferrari

  24. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Alonso lost loads of time after the SC compared to Vettel who he was racing pretty well with to that point, does that not suggest something in the car as the fuel load goes down it becomes a lot harder to maintain a decent pace?

    Massa himself admits his performances are not what he wants, he was pretty unlucky last year though and terrible pitstops, strategy and Lewis did not help him get much breaks. Ferrari and Massa know it's make or break year and have clearly stated it, everyone knows that, so I expect Ferrari will give him the season, calls to sack him now are just ridiculous, I don't see why any Ferrari fan should take any pleasure from one of our drivers not having a good time, as some on here seem to do.
    This is slightly off topic but it is nice to talk about the car, there is clearly something not right with the horse at the moment and this is extenuated by low fuel load. I read a post that suggested this was due to something being stuck in the sidepod/diffuser, but in light of qualifying this seems an unlikely cause.

    To return back to topic Massa had a brilliant start but went backwards very early (before the car entered the low fuel stage that hurt Alonso) so I do not think this characteristic explains Massa’s performance.

    The problem is this race is not a one off, even if Massa had mechanical issues this does not explain the last two seasons.

    I certainly do not take any pleasure in the situation in fact the opposite.

  25. #265
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    Bertie ''To return back to topic Massa had a brilliant start but went backwards very early (before the car entered the low fuel stage that hurt Alonso) so I do not think this characteristic explains Massa’s performance.''
    Massa was damaged the most because he did not have new tyres like Alonso had!!And we all know Felipe struggles more in that situation.

  26. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrari4life View Post
    If our ultimate goal is not the WCC for 2012 then might as well pack up and go home and show up in 2013. Until we figure out that we cannot get the car to complete for the 2012 WCC...we should be trying to get as many points as possible. And Massa doesn't seem to be pulling his weight around.

    On the flip side if what you say is true then we might as well start concentrating on 2013.
    So where is the logic in getting a noobie driver in that does not know Ferrari, does not know the "awkward" car (see Fisichella 2009 for details) and is immediately put under pressure to use it to get a WCC???

    Are you seriously saying that having a car that cannot currently compete for race wins is the basis for aiming for a WCC?

    Come on! We need to fix the car first so that the best driver on the grid can win in it!

    Scapegoating Massa has nothing to do with that AT THE MOMENT.

    As people keep on saying - if Fernando is qualifying on pole and winning in it and Massa is coming 10th - THEN and only then is this debate worth anything to Ferrari.

    It's common sense really.

    "Luna faccia schiaffo testa"

  27. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dino View Post
    Bertie ''To return back to topic Massa had a brilliant start but went backwards very early (before the car entered the low fuel stage that hurt Alonso) so I do not think this characteristic explains Massa’s performance.''
    Massa was damaged the most because he did not have new tyres like Alonso had!!And we all know Felipe struggles more in that situation.
    Massa does struggle more in that situation and that is kind of the point he has struggled in general for two seasons. He had two new sets of tyres at the start of the race and starting in 16th i assume he started on a new set but do not know for sure.

  28. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    It's been one race, in 2008 Massa made mistakes in the opening 2 races, he went on to challenge for the title....

    What about the last two years of under performance... the 2010 car was surely capable of wins of not the 2011 car..

  29. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by meh123 View Post
    What about the last two years of under performance... the 2010 car was surely capable of wins of not the 2011 car..
    Yeah good point, he probably would have won in Germany 2010 off course I don't think Massa performed badly in 2010 in any case, he beat Alonso a good few times.

    And if you look at the races when Alonso won, then Felipe was 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 8th, 3rd, which seems to be ok to me considering Alonso is better.

    Forza Ferrari

  30. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by meh123 View Post
    What about the last two years of under performance... the 2010 car was surely capable of wins
    Bahrain 2010: 1. Alonso 2. Massa
    Hockenheim 2010: 1. Alonso 2. Massa
    Monza 2010: 1. Alonso 3. Massa
    Korea 2010: 1. Alonso 3. Massa

    I think Massa proved your point. Unfortunately his car broke down in Singapore Q1. In fact Alonso was only capable of winning when the car was good enough to get Massa on the podium. A good car is what we need right now.
    Last edited by F2008; 19th March 2012 at 23:52.

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