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Thread: The Reality Of The Situation

  1. #301
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    The gaps between team mates at end of season:

    2011
    SV 392 (P1)
    MW 258 (P3)
    -134

    JB 270 (P2)
    LH 227 (P5)
    -43

    FA 257 (P4)
    FM 118 (P6)
    -139



    2010
    SV 256 (P1)
    MW 242 (P3)
    -14

    LH 240 (P4)
    JB 214 (P5)
    -26

    FA 252 (P2)
    FM 144 (P6)
    -108

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by meh123 View Post
    Being in the hypothetical situation, ________ will take a while to adapt to a Ferrari. I said contracts were not of much importance as we fired a WDC in 2009.

    ________ can be anyone from past drivers...Sutil, Perez, Jamie Algusauri ($santander will readily pay out Massa for him), maybe Kubica if hez fit enough...
    So no immediate turnaround, no?

    Would you then agree that there is also the possibility that things remain the same as they are with Felipe on board and even the possibility that things become worse?

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post

    As for Massa's future, its not about Ferrari wanting to ask the question 'should we keep him or not'. But rather, the question is coming to us. Its an inevitable question, because Massa's contract ends this year. You can't drive without a contract.

    I agree that the car's performance is the main focus of the team now, but at the same time, Ferrari have to make a decision on Massa this year as his contract ends, so the team can't simply turn a blind eye on the issue. They have to think about it like it or not, for the simple reason that the contract ends this year.
    But there is no evidence or argument that supports Ferrari making that decision this moment, do you agree?

  4. #304
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    This is getting out of hand. There is no one on the grid other than Hamilton and maybe Vettel that could do a better job than Massa in that car. It is so bad, that any mere mortal would struggle in it, this is not a Massa problem. He is a proven race winner, almost won a dwc, and beat Kim over the long run, and your talking about the likes of perez, rosberg, sutil? who have proved nothing.

    The large gap with Alonso is simply a repeat of history we saw it with Michael in the 90s in all the difficult cars. When he was banned in 1994 for some races, the benettons were lining up near the back of the grid, and when he came back they were winning. Same as in 1996 and 97, when he was miles ahead of Irvine, who was a good driver, yet many were fooled into thinking he was crap.

    Whoever they replace Massa with, will be worse and many people will be shocked.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
    This is getting out of hand. There is no one on the grid other than Hamilton and maybe Vettel that could do a better job than Massa in that car. It is so bad, that any mere mortal would struggle in it, this is not a Massa problem. He is a proven race winner, almost won a dwc, and beat Kim over the long run, and your talking about the likes of perez, rosberg, sutil? who have proved nothing.

    The large gap with Alonso is simply a repeat of history we saw it with Michael in the 90s in all the difficult cars. When he was banned in 1994 for some races, the benettons were lining up near the back of the grid, and when he came back they were winning. Same as in 1996 and 97, when he was miles ahead of Irvine, who was a good driver, yet many were fooled into thinking he was crap.

    Whoever they replace Massa with, will be worse and many people will be shocked.
    Couldn't agree more ..... people are saying let's give the car a chance to develop, it's only been one race, same with Massa, once he gets a bit of confidence in a competitive Ferrari he will improve ...let's remember there is generally always one driver in a team that outshines the other.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by killer View Post
    So no immediate turnaround, no?

    Would you then agree that there is also the possibility that things remain the same as they are with Felipe on board and even the possibility that things become worse?
    Its a bit trivial to say that a new driver for Ferrari will immidiately perform...I have repeatedly said that it takes a few races for anyone..we saw that with Fisci and Luca Badoer...

    I would say Ferrari should start looking for a replacement now..

    if Massa continues to underperform (finishes much much lower than FA), then fire him and put new guys in the car...why not try a different driver in FP1 like other teams, which make put more pressure on Massa to perform?? while we can evaluate other guys..

    We fired a WDC after 1 year of non-performance...why not use the same yardstick now???



    Also look at the difference in attitude between the drivers post qualifying:

    Last edited by meh123; 20th March 2012 at 10:02.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by killer View Post
    But there is no evidence or argument that supports Ferrari making that decision this moment, do you agree?
    I agree, in fact if I have to bet one one, I'd say that decision will not be made at least for the first half of the season. Which is why I think Massa still have the chance to prove himself this season. Maybe not the entire season, but at least for the first half of it.

    And that was my point actually. That Ferrari is evaluation him, they have to do it now and evaluate him over the course of the season as it progresses. I see many people saying fix the car first, give them a fast car first, which gives the impression that Ferrari should not evaluate Massa now until they can fix the car. Unfortunately Ferrari do not have the luxury of doing that. Regardless of what happens to the car, Massa contract ends this year.

    And Ferrari have to evaluate the situation throughout the entire season now to make a decision.
    Last edited by Hornet; 20th March 2012 at 09:53.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfa159 View Post
    Couldn't agree more ..... people are saying let's give the car a chance to develop, it's only been one race, same with Massa, once he gets a bit of confidence in a competitive Ferrari he will improve ...let's remember there is generally always one driver in a team that outshines the other.
    Thats been Ferrari policy to have a number 1 driver for over a decade...most other teams have two fairly equal drivers..

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by True Fan View Post
    Long Time Reader of this forum.

    Had to make a passing comment regarding the conduct of some of the \\\'\\\'fans\\\' of this \\\'discussion forum\\\' and the reality of the situation Ferrari are in.

    Formula one is all about relentlessness, that\\\'s the whole point of the sport, relentless development, relentless improvement, you win a race, you immediately think about how to get better as a driver, how to develop the car further, how to find more loopholes in the rules, how to cheat/lie or get the upper hand on your competition by ANY MEANS NECESSARY. To do this, you need a certain type of individual......a ruthless individual to some extent, this is why if you look at some of the true great drivers, guys like senna , schumacher, they had that ruthlessness, that \\\'\\\'i am going to win by any means needed because I am better than you\\\'\\\'\\\'

    Ferrari had this mentality once a upon a time, ruthless team headed by one of the most uncompromising drivers ever seen. No respect for others, no respect for the \\\'\\\'rules\\\'\\\' (whatever they are), WIN, that is all that matters.

    Ferrari have lost that mentality. This is part of the problem. They have a ruthless \\\'\\\'whatever it takes\\\' number one driver. But are headed by a team principal who should NEVER have been allowed to get to be team principal. I suspect he got there because of internal politics, because this man signifies everything that is wrong with the current ferrari.....WEAK. The man is out of his depth, and you can come at me with as much vitriol and fanboyism as you like, but only truly deluded \\\'\\\'tifosi\\\'\\\' belive this man is the correct choice. He has no buisness being a TP and it\\\'s disgrace that men have lost their jobs and yet he continues hang onto his job despite the obvious failings that have taken place over his watch.

    Felipe Massa.

    Another underperformer who has no business driving for a team like Ferrari. Again, the fanboys can throw the toys out of the pram till kingdom come. He has been poor for a good while now and his performance in qualifying today was nothing short of an embarrassment. The fact that he still drives a ferrari shows the weakness of the current management, in my view, Ferrari is the pinnacle of this sport, you dont get a free pass and if you cant deliver then you get the hell out and go to a midfield team and cry about your trouble. This team is for WINNERS, not out on their luck nearly men who are clearly not good enough.

    Thirdly these so called \'true fans\', the one accept defeat, the ones who almost embrace defeat, the\' we\'\'ll try again next year\'s, the \'\'its only a sport\'s \'\'thing\'s will get better\'\'s.

    That\'s called Loser Mentality or victim mentality. Thats not being a true fan, thats called not facing up to reality, burying your head in the sand, being soft, exactly the kind of things manifesting in the ferrari team over the last few years.

    The likelyhood is that this season is already finished, its not impossible to come back, but its very difficult to pull back a second a lap from the top teams, who will also continue to develop, especially teams like Mclaren who are very good at in season development, red bull may turn up the wick when they come up with a better exhaust config.

    If this carries on, Alonso will have to consider moving on too, because the man is a born winner, and wants to win championships, he wants to win them with ferrari, but a few more pathetic starts to the season like this, and you wonder.

    Oh and dont use lack of testing as an excuse, the other teams go by the same rules with fewer resources and they have produced cars as good as or better than ours.

    Ferrari is not a playground......... its very simple........... Perform or get out.

    Spot on mate. 100% Right.

  10. #310
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    Regarding Massa, and assuming that we all agree that, as a top team, Ferrari should make sure that it mans itself in the best way possible, I have taken a look at the total career points scored by each driver of the top 4 teams, here is the list:

    Schumacher 1517
    Alonso 1096
    Button 836
    Vettel 791
    Hamilton 738
    Webber 682
    Massa 582
    Rosberg 306

    All the mathematicians and statisticians on the forum should for a minute ignore the fact that points systems have changed in the recent past, yet considering the amount of time each of these drivers has spent in a good car, the numbers speak for themselves. And don't get me started on graphing trends, because Massa's recent past has been absolutely dismal.

    Now I know that this is an extremely simplistic way of looking at things, however I'm also sure that if I had to ask everybody to predict his points tally of 2012, we would have some very accurate, educated, guesses.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by meh123 View Post
    Its a bit trivial to say that a new driver for Ferrari will immidiately perform...I have repeatedly said that it takes a few races for anyone..we saw that with Fisci and Luca Badoer...

    I would say Ferrari should start looking for a replacement now..
    Can't say that's how your posts read, mate, but no one on here knows for sure if Ferrari aren't already doing so. Matter of fact, I find it hard to believe that Ferrari aren't always on the lookout for future talent. But if that's what you meant, no use in asking for his head on a plate immediately, no?


    Quote Originally Posted by meh123 View Post
    if Massa continues to underperform (finishes much much lower than FA), then fire him and put new guys in the car...why not try a different driver in FP1 like other teams, which make put more pressure on Massa to perform?? while we can evaluate other guys..
    I don't think any more pressure can be applied to Felipe. The method you propose can just as easily backfire and we end up with giving the race driver less time in the car. Again, no one can be sure if Ferrari aren't already evaluating other drivers. Surely they are aware that Felipe's contract expires this year and want to have as many options as possible--it just makes sense to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by meh123 View Post
    We fired a WDC after 1 year of non-performance...why not use the same yardstick now???
    Because we were throwing tons of money at that WDC.

    Quote Originally Posted by meh123 View Post
    Also look at the difference in attitude between the drivers post qualifying:
    Felipe was asked "how difficult that car is to drive..." He replied accordingly. Fernando was asked a different set of questions. He replied accordingly. I don't see any bases for comparing their attitudes.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    I agree, in fact if I have to bet one one, I'd say that decision will not be made at least for the first half of the season. Which is why I think Massa still have the chance to prove himself this season. Maybe not the entire season, but at least for the first half of it.

    And that was my point actually. That Ferrari is evaluation him, they have to do it now and evaluate him over the course of the season as it progresses. I see many people saying fix the car first, give them a fast car first, which gives the impression that Ferrari should not evaluate Massa now until they can fix the car. Unfortunately Ferrari do not have the luxury of doing that. Regardless of what happens to the car, Massa contract ends this year.

    And Ferrari have to evaluate the situation throughout the entire season now to make a decision.
    Ah. Understood. Like I said in the post previous to this one: no one here knows for sure if Ferrari aren't already evaluating their options--especially with a driver's contract expiring at year's end.

  13. #313
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    Personally I think this is the last year for Felipe at Ferrari no matter how things go and if it is then he can leave with his head held high and lot's of support from the Tifosi, I do not think Ferrari will replace him at any point during the season, but if the car is still rubbish next year then it won't make any difference, I am not one for saying sack people but I think this year should be the final one for Stefano if the results are not there. The buck has to stop at him at one point, no matter how likeable he is, maybe even bring a more technical minded person in to work alongside Stefano.

    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by F2002 View Post
    Regarding Massa, and assuming that we all agree that, as a top team, Ferrari should make sure that it mans itself in the best way possible, I have taken a look at the total career points scored by each driver of the top 4 teams, here is the list:

    Schumacher 1517
    Alonso 1096
    Button 836
    Vettel 791
    Hamilton 738
    Webber 682
    Massa 582
    Rosberg 306

    All the mathematicians and statisticians on the forum should for a minute ignore the fact that points systems have changed in the recent past, yet considering the amount of time each of these drivers has spent in a good car, the numbers speak for themselves. And don't get me started on graphing trends, because Massa's recent past has been absolutely dismal.

    Now I know that this is an extremely simplistic way of looking at things, however I'm also sure that if I had to ask everybody to predict his points tally of 2012, we would have some very accurate, educated, guesses.
    Extremely simplistic to stand as an argument, mate. One cannot ignore changes to the points system when the basis of one's argument are the points in question.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Personally I think this is the last year for Felipe at Ferrari no matter how things go and if it is then he can leave with his head held high and lot's of support from the Tifosi, I do not think Ferrari will replace him at any point during the season, but if the car is still rubbish next year then it won't make any difference, I am not one for saying sack people but I think this year should be the final one for Stefano if the results are not there. The buck has to stop at him at one point, no matter how likeable he is, maybe even bring a more technical minded person in to work alongside Stefano.
    I think most on here think the same, me included. The knee-jerk call for heads is just too irrational most of the time and while I understand the frustration, it makes no sense flogging a dead horse... or kicking someone when they are down. I believe we can voice our opinions, no matter what they are, in a more civilized and lucid manner.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by killer View Post
    Extremely simplistic to stand as an argument, mate. One cannot ignore changes to the points system when the basis of one's argument are the points in question.
    Oh absolutely, no doubt about that - I wasn't trying to be exact.

    But can you, hand on heart, say that, whichever way we look at things, that order of merit would change?

    The point I am trying to make is that a top team needs to aim for both drivers and constructors' title. Now, over and above all the talk about the car improving over the coming weeks, and all that, Felipe has collected zero points from Australia. Even if we wanted to stay cool and not write off the WDC immediately (it's too early), it would be difficult to think that, at this rate, we won't be out of the WCC sooner rather than later.

    There was a time when we used to feel sorry for Barrichello for having to finish second in order to let Schumacher win. Nowadays, our second driver is nowhere to be seen.

  17. #317
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    Maybe we should then, bring some techno bloke, to work alongside Stef Sunday.
    He wont help him in being nice, thats what you learn in PR Academies around the world, cause if you re a kingpin and a waste of space, the least one can do is be nice.
    It costs nothing.
    Techno blokes cost money, at least.
    Ask the drink manufacturers, maybe they know how to race and build F1 cars, since they re buying in the racing series with us, altogether now.
    Or should we ask Luca, and go compete on our own?
    Cause all those other fellas are getting quite fast, and they re not as flamboyant as us.


    On a more serious note.

    Scuderia Ferrari, has seen far worse times then this, scoreboardwise.
    But Scuderia Fearrari has parted with its DNA, and it took only couple of years to do so.
    Derogatory talks of competition, selfindulgence, waste of resources have even started this bandwagon, fellas changing the tyres and wrenching up or down didnt jump on it as a consequence of bad track performances.

    Bad track performances, bad racing decisions, bad managemenet decisions, are just poetic justice.



    You can mix banking, telecomunications, retail, wholesale and management, and no mattter what happens, you can almost always PR your way around it and convince even yourself to feel good about it.
    The buck doesnt spin the same way, for example in air transportation, Formula One racing aswell.

    bye cool...
    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Personally I think this is the last year for Felipe at Ferrari no matter how things go and if it is then he can leave with his head held high and lot's of support from the Tifosi, I do not think Ferrari will replace him at any point during the season, but if the car is still rubbish next year then it won't make any difference, I am not one for saying sack people but I think this year should be the final one for Stefano if the results are not there. The buck has to stop at him at one point, no matter how likeable he is, maybe even bring a more technical minded person in to work alongside Stefano.
    I agree. Massa has shown in 2008 that he's a championship contender. Add that to the fact that any drivers who have driven a Ferrari can be proud of it, I'd say its been a great career for him and he should be proud of it. Maybe something has changed for Massa, but its something that eventually happens to everyone. Even Schumi can't stay a great driver forever.

    Still on the fence about Mr Stefano D though. He says a lot of nice things But its hard to tell how good is his management capabilities.

  19. #319
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    I like this quote from Autosprint:

    La classifica non piange, per ora, almeno quella del mondiale Piloti (in quella Costruttori la Rossa č dietro alla Sauber, ma loro corrono con due macchine).

    Quick and dirty translation:
    The situation is not alarming in the WDC yet, although Ferrari is behind Sauber in the WCC (but, then again, Sauber runs two cars).

    Very relevant to the recent posts on this thread.

  20. #320
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    If the drivers truly appreciate Ferrari legacy then they should do the honorable thing and walk out when under performing. No shame in that. It will truly show the character of the person. Simply admit that there is another driver who can do a better job than you for Ferrari. My respect for that person will grow exponentially. It's not like everyone else can't see that you are struggling. I love Felipe but his list of excuses never runs out. I'm hoping he steps up his game and stays with Ferrari but only time will tell.

  21. #321
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    You mean like Alonso walked out on McLaren?

    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertie View Post
    Sorry to disagree with you and others that are stating that Massa has performed well in the last two seasons but here are the stats:

    2010: Alonso 252 points vs Massa 144 points... ratio = 1.75

    2011: Alonso 257 points vs Massa 118 points... ratio = 2.18

    These are facts. To back up the rational argument that Felipe is not performing to the required standard.

    I will reiterate that Massa should not be got rid of now but we may look back and say he prob shouldn’t have had a seat this year. (my opinion)

    I would also like to say that i am not trying to irritate other members of the forum and that the level of support you show for Massa is admirable. I and some others are maybe a bit more realistic about the situation.
    I finished my post with this: come back and tell me when the F2012 has secured its first pole position.

    Has it yet? No? Then it's pointless to talk about Massa.

    I've already said this, but I'll just repeat myself again... right now, we have a dog of a car, and until that improves, it's hopeless to even think about putting someone else in the car in place of Massa. Remember how Fisi struggled in 2009, coming off the back of a pole and 2nd place finish at Spa in the Force India?!

    If there's the one main problem we should all be talking about right now, it's the car, nothing else matters at this stage.

    The future is RED

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    I doubt any driver would want to leave Ferrari while they are driving...

    Ferrari fired Prost and Kimi...thinking along the same lines..Ferrari could have fired Massa long back..LDM wanted to give Massa a second chance for some time...

    I hope he can really surprise everyone and show us his true skills...otherwise...he should look for a ateam which best suits his driving style..

  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    You mean like Alonso walked out on McLaren?
    He didn't walked out, he was running from a pack of hyenas.

    We don't need this, and the Italian press should know it, the team has enough troubles, we can't deal with this extra pressure of people asking to fire Massa, what if the replacement is as bad as Massa?, not because he is a bad driver but because the car is impossible to drive?. Felipe should stay, he has to improve at some point, and it's not like the team has chances to get the WCC.

    This should be the last year of Felipe in Ferrari, I think both parties are burn out.

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    You mean like Alonso walked out on McLaren?
    No, that's not the same. His performance at McLaren was top notch but the team were not interested in him winning. Can't imagine anyone at McLaren celebrating if Alonso won the 07 Championship. More like Heike with McLaren, had a great car but was crap. Massa's situation is not the same as Fernando in 07. Anyway long season for Massa and Ferrari to catch up and hopefully the last season to play catch up.

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    I genuinely don't know how Massa is being treated on here as if he is the biggest problem Ferrari has right now.
    But I guess people have to take their frustrations out on someone...

    Anyway you will all get your way by the end of the year when we sign God-knows-who to replace him. And to those fans I say - good luck.
    Grazie Felipe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzie View Post
    I genuinely don't know how Massa is being treated on here as if he is the biggest problem Ferrari has right now.
    But I guess people have to take their frustrations out on someone...

    Anyway you will all get your way by the end of the year when we sign God-knows-who to replace him. And to those fans I say - good luck.
    Seems like on here.. if you slag Ferrari you get yelled at.. if you slag Massa you get yelled at...

    But since you bought it up.. I think that Ferrari are seriously stinking up the place. Reminds me of Honda.. spend all that money start developing a car halfway through the previous season and still stink up the joint. Honestly speaking if they cant sort out this car soon then we are nothing more than a mid-field team with a great history at the moment.
    the Bulls, McLarens and even Lotus and Merc have left us dangling with some serious lack of for-sight and ingenuity to come up with something sharp that people want to copy. I am and always will be Ferrari first but I feel sorry for Alonso. After the drive he has put in for us.. that we cannot give him a car that is capable is seriously dis-heartening. Hope he can pull a Schumacher and push the team back from the precipice.. I am seriously not seeing any other great leaders at Ferrari at the moment like we had with Todt, Brawn and Bryne earlier this decade.
    we're number one

  28. #328
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    Really, a Ferrari forum and you get yelled at for running the team down, not hard to work it out maybe

    This forum was born to get away from the yelling at Ferrari we can get at every other F1 forum on the internet....It's fine to speak about our problems but there is a right way to go about it.

    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Really, a Ferrari forum and you get yelled at for running the team down, not hard to work it out maybe

    This forum was born to get away from the yelling at Ferrari we can get at every other F1 forum on the internet....It's fine to speak about our problems but there is a right way to go about it.
    that is why I joined, to get away from all this.


    In Stefano Domenicali, we have a team boss who has proved to be a leader. - Luca diMontezemelo

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    Quote Originally Posted by F2002 View Post
    Oh absolutely, no doubt about that - I wasn't trying to be exact.

    But can you, hand on heart, say that, whichever way we look at things, that order of merit would change?

    The point I am trying to make is that a top team needs to aim for both drivers and constructors' title. Now, over and above all the talk about the car improving over the coming weeks, and all that, Felipe has collected zero points from Australia. Even if we wanted to stay cool and not write off the WDC immediately (it's too early), it would be difficult to think that, at this rate, we won't be out of the WCC sooner rather than later.

    There was a time when we used to feel sorry for Barrichello for having to finish second in order to let Schumacher win. Nowadays, our second driver is nowhere to be seen.
    Point taken and I agree with how top teams must go for both titles.

    As regards your question: all things being equal, Massa has a shot at number 3 or 4 in your list. Just an honest opinion, mate--no sentimentality. He has matched or even beaten everyone on there bar Fernando and Michael.

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