Ferrari drivers visit Maranello for talks

[vcs316]

Both the Ferrari drivers went back to Maranello from Kuala Lumpur for meetings and discussions about the first two races and the way forward. Interestingly Malaysian GP winner Fernando Alonso had two meetings with Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo, a long one on Monday and another yesterday.

Alonso participated in the ceremony whereby a flag is raised at the factory gate after a race victory, but while the Spanish driver’s stock is as high as it has even been within the team after winning a Grand Prix in arguably F1′s fifth or sixth fastest car, it has served only to emphasise Felipe Massa’s problems. The little Brazilian has not stood on an F1 podium since 2010 and the sight of his race engineer Rob Smedley shaking his head on the pit wall on Sunday was as seminal a moment as the immortal “Fernando is faster than you” line on the radio.

Interestingly, team principal Stefano Domenicali said that Massa had changed his plans in order to attend meetings at the factory to try to resolve his problems,

“Instead of heading home to see his family in Brazil, he will be in Maranello to work alongside the engineers to calmly analyse everything that happened in these past two races, trying to identify why he was not able to deliver what he is capable of,” said Domenicali.

“That’s the right spirit and we are here, ready to help him.”

Ferrari has been very patient and loyal with Massa, giving him a new chassis for Malaysia and he was on average around 4/10ths off Alonso prior to the race. This is closer than he was in Australia, but still far from what is expected. At the meetings in Maranello he is likely to have been told that their patience is not endless.

The Massa situation is not Ferrari’s primary concern at the moment. Sorting out the problems with the F2012 is top of the list. Engineers from rival teams say that it will be hard to get the car to the same level as the pace setting McLaren as the decision to go with pullrod front suspension has been shown not to be effective and the team are committed to it now. Time will tell.

But the performance on Sunday of Sergio Perez, the man most likely to replace Massa at some point, has further added to the glare of doubt about the Brazilian, who is driving at the moment like a man with little or no confidence.

Many outsiders are calling for Perez to be brought in for the next race in China, including, mischievously, the McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh. It is very tempting for onlookers to see this as the logical move. But this is unlikely to happen. The earliest Ferrari might consider giving Perez a run would be the Mugello test on May 1st, after Bahrain.

But even then the situation is fraught with problems. Putting Perez in the car mid season could actually prove counter-effective, for the team and for Perez’ career, as the F2012 is a difficult car to drive and how would it look if he under-performed in it? It would leave the team with nowhere to go next and could wreck his confidence.

“We know we have an unstable car,” said Domenicali, “One that in certain moments gives us a lot and at other times, a lot less.” Technical director Pat Fry agreed, “The F2012 seems to behave in very different ways depending on the conditions,” he said. “In this race there were moments when it was competitive, others where it struggled. Now we need to find the missing tenths.”

This is not a car a young driver, whose stock is high after a good result, should want to step into hastily.

Moving teams mid-season with little or no testing time is always very high risk, especially for a driver with only one season of F1 experience. Add to that the performance of Alonso in the other car and the entry level would be very high indeed for Perez.

Better to wait until the end of the season and then start afresh with a new car and plenty of testing. One of the likely outcomes of the new Concorde Agreement, called for by Montezemolo, is the return of a bit more testing in 2013.

Of course if Massa’s decline continues the team may be forced to act and in that scenario it will be fascinating to see what they decide to do.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/0...llo-for-talks/

[killer]

Good call to re-group and determine how we move on from here.

[Stormsearcher]

Yes, Excellent idea to plan the way forward. Am sure people in maranello are as confused as any of us as how to handle this car. And i hope this is the main topic of discussion. Putting pressure on Massa is only making him worse. Leave him alone, fix the car and am sure he will automatically raise his game.
Hoping we will solve the mysteries of this car and start belting the rivals come china.

[sav_pap]

Nice happy hours after a superb win!! I wish I could be there amongst them!!

[Greig]

It's up to the engineers really to solve the problems which are well known.

[Hornet]

I am worried about the front pull rod suspension. Although some people have mentioned about the rumor of switching the front suspension back to push rod, I find that hard to believe that we can do that without modifying the chassis and so far Ferrari have denied of any new chassis mid season.

[meh123]

When driver A can excel with one setup, why not use the same for driver B, when A and B are in the same team??

why not duplicate the setup on Alonso's car.(who has put the car in Q2 and Q1 in the last 2 races). Atleast we have a base line to see the problem. If Massa still has problems, he can adapt his driving style (atleast as a veteran driver over 7 seasons, it should be easy, ot that's what he's paid to do ??.)


Now we can have drivers who can give identical feedback to the engineers , and from the telemetry gained..carry out the major changes before the Euro leg.


..Just saying it aloud...I bet Ferrari would have thought about this and have improvised solutions..
Just hoping it all goes well and we have a car which performs well and is fast.

We have improved in terms of strategy and pitstops, which is really positive..Onwards now!!!

[meh123]

I am worried about the front pull rod suspension. Although some people have mentioned about the rumor of switching the front suspension back to push rod, I find that hard to believe that we can do that without modifying the chassis and so far Ferrari have denied of any new chassis mid season.

It is complicated, no doubt...its a radical change...but I personally believe, it got to do more than just the suspension...

[Greig]

Because giving a driver a setup they do not like will not be of any benefit maybe? And it's nothing to do with adapating.

Seems pointless to hamper the guy any further to me. If Massa wants more understeer and Alonso wants more oversteer then we all know what one will get what they want right?

I think I read Massa and Alonso are pretty similar in car set up anyway.

[theforce]

I'm sorry, but to say the car is unpredictable and we don't understand it may have been acceptable back in Flintstone's time but not now. I think we are getting VERY good at finding problems rather than fixing them. 2009,10,11 and now 12, cars have been churned out with fundemental flaws. This cycle has to stop.

[rocks.ral]

serious... this has to stop.. engineers at the ferrari base cannot be that fundamentally flawed considering the past records that the team has achieved.. we have the interesting new design and supposedly a faster car in f2012, it needs to be unlocked and very quickly.. as quick as Spain the most..

I'm sorry, but to say the car is unpredictable and we don't understand it may have been acceptable back in Flintstone's time but not now. I think we are getting VERY good at finding problems rather than fixing them. 2009,10,11 and now 12, cars have been churned out with fundemental flaws. This cycle has to stop.

[meh123]

Because giving a driver a setup they do not like will not be of any benefit maybe? And it's nothing to do with adapating.

Seems pointless to hamper the guy any further to me. If Massa wants more understeer and Alonso wants more oversteer then we all know what one will get what they want right?

I think I read Massa and Alonso are pretty similar in car set up anyway.

So why the performance gap??


Driving skills?? Tyre management??Is it not abut adapting to the new Pirelli tires??

[Greig]

So why the performance gap??


Driving skills?? Tyre management??Is it not abut adapting to the new Pirelli tires??

So similar setups = all drivers perform the same?

Alonso is better, don't know why you need to be told that?

[Alonsomaniac]

So similar setups = all drivers perform the same?

Alonso is better, don't know why you need to be told that?

Yes, Alonso is better. But not as much as it seems to be right now. Felipe has always been a fast driver, so it is just impossible that Alonso is so much faster than him.
Something is definitely wrong and Ferrari has to find out what that is.
The car is difficult, but Felipe must be driver enough to handle that, so the cause of his poblems are in another area.
Either the setup of his car is fundamentally wrong for him, or something is very wrong with Felipe himself.
Critisizing Felipe will get us nowhere, the cause of the problem has to be found.

[Greig]

Or the car is more towards Alonso

[Nova]

How long will Ferrari continue to attempt to find the problem with this chassis, try to fix it? What if they get
to a point where they feel it cannot be made to go any faster?
If after all of the test sessions, and 2 races weekends trying to get the car setup properly, they still cannot
get it up to even midfield pace, they may have to do something drastic. Question is, how long b4 the car is dialed in, or
how long b4 they scrap it???

The only good thing there is that FA is not buried in the points. The sooner they do do something drastic, the better it will be.
I watched the race again yesterday...Perez on the drys hunted down the Ferrari at an amazing pace, and except for his
mistake, would have easily passed him and been 8 seconds up by the end. Hey, its not going to rain every race.

[theforce]

Ferrari: "In F2012 we have a car of GREAT potential, it's now up to us to unlock it and so here we go...for the love of god, I can't find the key to unlock it".

Having a great car in the past is all jolly but what about now? what about since 2009?

[Stormy]

^since 2009 a lot of rules are changed and we have troubles adapting to them.

[Dino]

[QUOTE=Nova;719362]How long will Ferrari continue to attempt to find the problem with this chassis, try to fix it? What if they get
to a point where they feel it cannot be made to go any faster?
If after all of the test sessions, and 2 races weekends trying to get the car setup properly, they still cannot
get it up to even midfield pace, they may have to do something drastic. Question is, how long b4 the car is dialed in, or
how long b4 they scrap it???


The only good thing there is that FA is not buried in the points. The sooner they do do something drastic, the better it will be.
I watched the race again yesterday...Perez on the drys hunted down the Ferrari at an amazing pace, and except for his
mistake, would have easily passed him and been 8 seconds up by the end. Hey, its not going to rain every race.[/

It's not like we have a good handling car but we need to find .400 sec. to be a front runner.
The built in defects in this car are so obvious that it should be relatively easier to find.I am sure Alonso and the designers by now have understood what is happening as the car gets lighter,and why it is degrading the tyres more than certain cars.WE WILL GET THERE!!
Up to now they have only been fine tuning what they have!!!

Not so sure about that.We have seen cars catch Alonso many times.He is an expert at using the KERS where he thinks he could be at risk and defends like it's his last race.Perez was catching him fast but dont forget there was only one dry line [the width of an F1 car] and Perez had understeer problems allready.

[Suzie]

http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formu...ld-friend.aspx

Maranello, 28 March –There was a short pause in the working day to celebrate a win that was as hard fought as it was wanted, and to do so with an old friend. The setting was the Logistics pavilion, the players were all the men and women of the Scuderia Ferrari, along with their boss Stefano Domenicali and President Luca di Montezemolo, while the surprise guest was Gerhard Berger, who happening to be in Maranello, wanted to great so many old friends and team colleagues.

There was a great atmosphere, thanks to the satisfaction of taking such an exciting and yet unexpected win, mixed with the will to get on with the job as quickly as possible of improving a car that is not yet matching the expectations of those who work at Maranello, nor of the millions of Prancing Horse fans.

In a brief greeting, President Montezemolo asked for four rounds of applause: for Fernando Alonso to thank him for his amazing performance last Sunday, for Felipe Massa to stress the fact the team has all its faith in him at this difficult time, for the engineers and designers for the work, “they will know how to do to make the F2012 quicker” and for Stefano Domencali, “the boss of all of you.”

“This victory must not be an isolated one, but rather the starting point to a season in which we want to be the best,” added Montezemolo. “To succeed, we have to be the best in our daily work in every sector. We know there is a lot to do, but we also know it’s not impossible.”

With six seasons and 96 Grands Prix starts for the Scuderia, Gerhard Berger was also keen to say a few words. “Every time I come to Maranello, my heart always beats in a special way. I drove for many teams in my Formula 1 career, but I never found people and a passion like I did here. It is really something unique.”

In the late afternoon, Felipe Massa arrived in Maranello. The Brazilian will spend two days here analysing in minute detail, along with the team, everything that happened in the back-to-back races in Australia and Malaysia. The aim is to understand what were the reasons behind him being unable to have a performance level that was up to the job and to the potential of the car, apart from a few moments, for example in qualifying in Sepang.

As Montezemolo underlined this afternoon, Felipe can count on everyone having faith in him and the knowledge that nothing will be left to chance in trying to put him in a position where he can show his undoubted worth.

[SashAlex]

So why the performance gap??


Driving skills?? Tyre management??Is it not abut adapting to the new Pirelli tires??

It's about the tyres. In the past, when Felipe was in his prime. the Bridgestone tyres were a lot more durable and stronger, while nowadays the tyres degrade a lot quicker than those from before, thus leading to lots of troubles for aggressive drivers like Felipe, like Hamilton etc. Felipe, even in the past, was braking hard, sometimes making errors, and if then it would go unharmful because of the tougher tyres, now every mistake can ruin your chances of a good race, forcing you to enter the pits a lot earlier and playing against when trying to move up places.

Add to that mediocre cars and that pretty much sums up the problems Felipe has nowadays. And of course Alonso is far superior as a driver.

[meh123]

So similar setups = all drivers perform the same?

Alonso is better, don't know why you need to be told that?

It's about the tyres. In the past, when Felipe was in his prime. the Bridgestone tyres were a lot more durable and stronger, while nowadays the tyres degrade a lot quicker than those from before, thus leading to lots of troubles for aggressive drivers like Felipe, like Hamilton etc. Felipe, even in the past, was braking hard, sometimes making errors, and if then it would go unharmful because of the tougher tyres, now every mistake can ruin your chances of a good race, forcing you to enter the pits a lot earlier and playing against when trying to move up places.

Add to that mediocre cars and that pretty much sums up the problems Felipe has nowadays. And of course Alonso is far superior as a driver.

@ Greg: So it is driving skills? and by your own admission you do concede that Alonso is a better driver than Massa given the same equipment
@SAlex: So u think Massa has not adapted to the new tires compared to other drivers on the grid?or his driving style is not suited? We did have BS tires in 2010 and his performance was much better compared to Pirelli's.

So, should the team now concentrate on driver no. 1 and build a car more suited for him or spend more time helping driver no. 2 to bring him upto speed almost within 80-90% of driver no. 1?

[bladeswing]

@ Greg: So it is driving skills? and by your own admission you do concede that Alonso is a better driver than Massa given the same equipment
@SAlex: So u think Massa has not adapted to the new tires compared to other drivers on the grid?or his driving style is not suited? We did have BS tires in 2010 and his performance was much better compared to Pirelli's.

So, should the team now concentrate on driver no. 1 and build a car more suited for him or spend more time helping driver no. 2 to bring him upto speed almost within 80-90% of driver no. 1?

Hmm... I'm not gonna speak for Greig, but I'm not really sure where you want to go with this.
All the questions you raised ( except for the last sentence ) are already given facts. Alonso is obviously a better all around driver. In fact, majority of us fans and even in the paddock agree he is the currently the best driver in the grid.

Personally, I do think Felipe still hasn't understood the Pirellis well enough. Before, he complained he couldn't get much heat into the tires over a fast lap, now he couldn't manage wear. His adaptability I think is the factor ( not just comparing with Fernando, but with other drivers as well ). Im saying this because I believe there's not much difference in both our drivers' styles, therefore not much difference in the car's philosophy. Alonso just happens to understand and adapt faster, and thus knows how to deal with the car's stubborness. Alonso knows better how to make the best out of what he has available.

And don't think for one sec this is a Felipe bash. It's just that he has FA for a teammate who he gets compared to.

Lastly, I dont think a no.1 driver is yet to be enforced. you know as much as i do that Ferrari only does this when one of the drivers has a far better chance than the other for the championship. Having said that, the priority is still WCC. WDC is secondary. And that is why Felipe MUST deliver... And that's why Ferrari WILL support him to be able to do that.

Now if Ferrari gets fed up after all the support they've given, well...

[meh123]

Found this from Crucial extreme on F1T

Twitter Q n A

http://www.sendspace.com/file/7ptco6


Inside Ferrari Twitter Account--> https://twitter.com/#!/insideferrari

[killer]

This is going to be good.

[Greig]

@ Greg: So it is driving skills? and by your own admission you do concede that Alonso is a better driver than Massa given the same equipment

When have I ever said different? I need to make no admission I have said Alonso is the best driver on the grid since about 2006, you should know you have been banned enough times from here

[SashAlex]

@ Greg: So it is driving skills? and by your own admission you do concede that Alonso is a better driver than Massa given the same equipment
@SAlex: So u think Massa has not adapted to the new tires compared to other drivers on the grid?or his driving style is not suited? We did have BS tires in 2010 and his performance was much better compared to Pirelli's.

So, should the team now concentrate on driver no. 1 and build a car more suited for him or spend more time helping driver no. 2 to bring him upto speed almost within 80-90% of driver no. 1?

Well, to sum up what I've said : Felipe makes a lot of mistakes during a race. In the past, the tyres were a lot more durable and that went unnoticed. These tyres, if you happen to make a couple of mistakes, your race is compromised. I've noticed a lot of times how both Fernando and Felipe treat the same corner many times in a row, and with Fernando, it looked the same, while Felipe was more inconsistent. Not bashing here Felipe, because he's my boy, but he obviously makes mistakes by going out of the line, braking hard and wasting the tyres. Even when not making mistakes, his style on treating the corners is late-braking, which isn't good for the Pirellis, imho.

[XXX132]

I'm sorry, but to say the car is unpredictable and we don't understand it may have been acceptable back in Flintstone's time but not now. I think we are getting VERY good at finding problems rather than fixing them. 2009,10,11 and now 12, cars have been churned out with fundemental flaws. This cycle has to stop.

Sometimes I wonder if we don't just build a car that generally complies with the rules and rely on testing to make it fast. Last few years we haven't been able to test... I'm amazed all these "faults" with the car only came to light after Jerez and Barca testing. What were the CFD analyses etc telling our engineers during the design stage? Seems like the much maligned windtunnel of 2011 is not the only design tool we have to blame...

Despite that we just happen to lead the WDC by pure luck, and need FM up to step up to protect Freddo's lead as much as possible while we find a few more tenths.

[Tiz]

Any further news as to how talks are progressing? Or should talks stop and what has been learnt from them now put into train for being fixed - and quickly!

[NanoTheQuickest]

I will repeat myself here again but this F1 era (Pirelli related) suits thinkers/intelligent type drivers more than the hot shots/limit pushers ones. It's not a accurate science but the MacClaren Combo is a valid enough example to prove this right and even if it is hard to say but Felipe style is quite similar to Lewis. In Felipe's defence, give our present car to Lewis and he would not do any better. (early 2009 season anyone?)