Felipe Massa sucks, says Suzie

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I love how some seem to think replacing Felipe will make us win the WCC, our weakest link is not Felipe but the car, but if changing Felipe will make the car better then I am all for that

I don't think anyone has said it will make us win the WCC. You obviously don't agree though that it could help chances. It seems you are doing nothing but making excuses for Felipe by blaming the car and saying that it's fantastic Alonso that's making him look bad. It's not Felipe at all. Which is preposterous. So what's the excuse for 2011? It was clearly the 3rd best car that Felipe couldn't do anything with. What about 2010? Which was a better season than 2011. But Felipe only managed to win(I give him Germany) GP. He didn't even get in the top 5 in WDC with arguably the best car.
I'm just sick and tired of people making excuses for him and acting like he's driving ok. This type of thinking inside & outside of Ferrari has only perpetuated the problem.

Do I think getting rid of Massa would make us win the WCC? No. However I do think it would give us a better shot. The car can clearly go better than he's driving it. It doesn't have to go at the same pace as Fernando. But Felipe is admittedly under performing yet people here are making excuses for it and some are just ignoring it all together.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

All of these posts, you guys are such whiners...cry about this or that..never a good thing to say about anyone.
Its amazing some of you can get out of bed in the AM. Or whenever it is you get up.
The truth is that:
Ferrari has not built a good car...period...they havent for a while, and if you know you Ferrari history, I mean, its a Ferrari site, right?
You would know that Ferrari has built more bow wows ie: dogs, than winners..
Some of you sound as if you are blinded by the magic of Ferrari, they are a car company, and yes, as much as you dont believe it,
even Ferrari cannot always produce race winning cars.
The F2010 was probably the best car Ferrari produced since Brawn left.
I think b4 one goes axing any of the drivers, one should look first at the real problem.

You're obviously a Massa fan. "nothing good to say about anyone"?????

What good is there to say about Felipe this year? Do tell.

2011: 3rd best car, Felipe can't manage anything better than 5th place

2010: Arguably best car on the grid one point away from WDC and Felipe can't win but one GP.


Again many here acting like Felipe's driving has been fine this year. You're darn right they need to improve the car. And need to do it quickly. But the car isn't the only thing that needs improving and if you don't see that, then you're a blindly loyal Massa fanboy.

[Alonsomaniac]

To conclude that Massa's performance is the true representation of the performance of the car is an admission that Alonso is defying the laws of physics and driving beyond the capability of the car. Sorry, but it's just not possible.

But there's really no reason to continuously moan, just let the nature takes its course. Sooner or later, Ferrari's management will make the decision on Massa' future. Fact of life: unless the driver is top of the crop, he/she will not get to choose what top team he/she drives for.

As a long-time Alonso fan I can only say that you are 100% right.
Lot's of people seem to think Fernando is a kind of magician. Well, he is not. He is an outstanding F1 driver, at the moment probably the best out there, but that is all he is.
The car is not as bad as some think. It's not the best car, but it's a decent one.
I too don't know what Felipe's problem is right now, but it is not just the car. There is more what influences his driving.
I still hope he can overcome his troubles, but my hope is getting less and less each race lately.
But still, not knowing what causes all this, I think we just should leave it up to Ferrari and Felipe to find a way out of this.
Untill then, he is a Ferraridriver just like Fernando and we as fans are obliged to support him.

[Kingdom Hearts]

Let's stay serious. Ferrari won't design the car for Massa. In Bahrain we have seen that Alonso didn't move over for Massa who was on a different strategy, we all know what would have happened if it was the other way around. I also don't know if the team deserves much credit for building the F2012 or even the F150.

Maybe not, but they deserve credit for a fast recovery (still in progress) and way better pit stops than last year, if you don't want to give credit to the team, is up to you.

Well, I don't know if you watched the Chinese and Bahrain GP, the 2 races before this one race in Barcelona which has set everyone on fire, but to be only 5 and 7s behind Alonso after 56 and 57 laps, is not really crap.

I mean with the current "good" car after the barcelona updates, I know he did decent races in China and Barhain.

[Greig]

I don't think anyone has said it will make us win the WCC. You obviously don't agree though that it could help chances. It seems you are doing nothing but making excuses for Felipe by blaming the car and saying that it's fantastic Alonso that's making him look bad. It's not Felipe at all. Which is preposterous. So what's the excuse for 2011? It was clearly the 3rd best car that Felipe couldn't do anything with. What about 2010? Which was a better season than 2011. But Felipe only managed to win(I give him Germany) GP. He didn't even get in the top 5 in WDC with arguably the best car.
I'm just sick and tired of people making excuses for him and acting like he's driving ok. This type of thinking inside & outside of Ferrari has only perpetuated the problem.

Do I think getting rid of Massa would make us win the WCC? No. However I do think it would give us a better shot. The car can clearly go better than he's driving it. It doesn't have to go at the same pace as Fernando. But Felipe is admittedly under performing yet people here are making excuses for it and some are just ignoring it all together.

Ok the car is not at all got any problems, there is no need to it to be updated massively, oh wait....

Obviously you think replacing Massa will cure all and that's just great, but yes I do believe Fernando is a lot better than Felipe, in 2010 Felipe was backing up Alonso quite nicely, Nando won what 5 races and Massa was on the podium for 4 of them, suggests when the car was working well then Felipe was there, claiming we had the best car in 2010 is very debatable considering we mostly were kept in the title due to Red Bull messing up but if you want to say we had the best car then it's worrying Alonso lost the title in the best car.

Nobody has made any excuses for him, maybe you are just imagining it? Maybe you can quote some of the excuses I have been making for him since you are saying that is all I do?

[Greig]

You're obviously a Massa fan. "nothing good to say about anyone"?????

What good is there to say about Felipe this year? Do tell.

2011: 3rd best car, Felipe can't manage anything better than 5th place

2010: Arguably best car on the grid one point away from WDC and Felipe can't win but one GP.


Again many here acting like Felipe's driving has been fine this year. You're darn right they need to improve the car. And need to do it quickly. But the car isn't the only thing that needs improving and if you don't see that, then you're a blindly loyal Massa fanboy.

Yes Nova who has been with us for about 10 years on the forum is just a Massa fanboy, really no need to take that sort of attitude with fellow members is there?

And we have no problems with Felipe, Fernando, Stefano or anything Ferrari fanboy round here

[Kiwi Nick]

Even F1 is on Massa's case

http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2012/5/13360.html

[Agron]

You're obviously a Massa fan. "nothing good to say about anyone"?????

What good is there to say about Felipe this year? Do tell.

2011: 3rd best car, Felipe can't manage anything better than 5th place

2010: Arguably best car on the grid one point away from WDC and Felipe can't win but one GP.


Again many here acting like Felipe's driving has been fine this year. You're darn right they need to improve the car. And need to do it quickly. But the car isn't the only thing that needs improving and if you don't see that, then you're a blindly loyal Massa fanboy.

2010: 3rd best car, the renault was a rocket all season and the mclaren was pretty close, faster in some races even. Ferrari was at most the fastest car in 1 race out of what? 18? he was only competing till the last race due to excellent driving, a great team behind him and most important, the numerous mistakes and problems the other faster cars had (and unlike Ferrari, they didn't have a guy able to make genious recovery drives like Alonso did at the start of the year, so when they failed, they failed hard).
2011: yes, 3rd best car, but again the two first positions in the podium were reserved for the RB guys with the car 1+ seconds faster than anyone else in qualy and race, mclaren again could fight them on some circuits and otherwise was generally several tenths faster than Ferrari. The only reason Alonso could score podiums was because he is Alonso, and can sometimes beat other top drivers even if they have faster cars. Is Massa suddendly hopeless because he can't beat Hamilton, Webber or Button when they have faster cars than him? because that's what happened.

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

Some people here obviously hold Massa in greater regard than they do Ferrari.

[Greig]

Some people here obviously hold Massa in greater regard than they do Ferrari.

Name them and explain why then with some quotes.

[REDARMYSOJA]

Some people here obviously hold Massa in greater regard than they do Ferrari.

Some people seem to think they know what to do better than Ferrari.

[FER]

[QUOTE=Greig;727201]Ok the car is not at all got any problems, there is no need to it to be updated massively, oh wait....

Obviously you think replacing Massa will cure all /QUOTE]

He didn't mean that at all. I cannot understand why is it that hard for you to understand what he is suggesting. Noone is stating the car is perfect, nor replacing Massa will cure all. Or maybe you can quote something I would have missed. You're avoiding his clear statements and read his words as it suits you. Maybe it is because you lack of arguments.

[Greig]

Ok the car is not at all got any problems, there is no need to it to be updated massively, oh wait....

Obviously you think replacing Massa will cure all

He didn't mean that at all. I cannot understand why is it that hard for you to understand what he is suggesting. Noone is stating the car is perfect, nor replacing Massa will cure all. Or maybe you can quote something I would have missed. You're avoiding his clear statements and read his words as it suits you. Maybe it is because you lack of arguments.

Yeah claiming the 2010 car was the best on the grid just to put Felipe down is me misunderstanding. What is my argument? What have I said that you disagree with then?

The car is not good enough, Felipe is not driving good enough, replacing Felipe will not improve the car to WCC winning standard overnight, if you don't agree with that then that's ok

[Crucial_Xtreme]

[QUOTE=FER;727208]

Ok the car is not at all got any problems, there is no need to it to be updated massively, oh wait....

Obviously you think replacing Massa will cure all /QUOTE]

He didn't mean that at all. I cannot understand why is it that hard for you to understand what he is suggesting. Noone is stating the car is perfect, nor replacing Massa will cure all. Or maybe you can quote something I would have missed. You're avoiding his clear statements and read his words as it suits you. Maybe it is because you lack of arguments.

You're exactly right, I did not say anything he suggested I said. I've actually said the exact opposite of what he said I did. He likes to spin things to suit his agenda. And he simply refuses to admit that Felipe is not performing well. Instead he blames it on the car & Fernando. Yes I agree the car isn't where it needs to be, and Fernando is fantastic. But neither of those facts dismiss the fact that Felipe isn't performing well.

People want to say to others " you must know better than the team". The team has clearly stated they are not happy with his performance. Last year and this year too. So why it's so hard for them to accept and admit is beyond me. The team clearly believe he under performed last year and he is this year & you can only do this for so long and be allowed to continue. Felipe himself says he isn't doing well this year. But nobody here agrees with him and if they do it has nothing to do with him, it's the car and his teammate that makes it look worse than it is. *rolls eyes* Trust me it's that bad. It's even worse when being behind someone by 0.6s in Quali & 5+ seconds in equal equipment is a bright spot. Felipe didn't have these type issues with Michael. So to me it's obvious the accident has taken Felipe down a step or two.

[Greig]

You're exactly right, I did not say anything he suggested I said. I've actually said the exact opposite of what he said I did. He likes to spin things to suit his agenda. And he simply refuses to admit that Felipe is not performing well. Instead he blames it on the car & Fernando. Yes I agree the car isn't where it needs to be, and Fernando is fantastic. But neither of those facts dismiss the fact that Felipe isn't performing well.

He has never said Felipe is performing well enough, he has never blamed it on Fernando, he has said Fernando is simply better than Massa, do you want to disagree with that as well? He has no agenda, he has said the car is not good enough as confirmed by Stefano, Fernando, Felipe and Pat Fry, he has a name.

Maybe the members here in 2009 have a little bit more respect for Felipe to drag him through the mud like some of our newer members seem to take great delight in doing, I don't see any great defence of Massa here stating he is doing well enough, even his biggest fans admit he is not performing as well as we know he can, so I am not sure why you keep suggestion that there is some sort of denial going on in here, care to point it out as maybe you are seeing things nobody else is?

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Yeah claiming the 2010 car was the best on the grid just to put Felipe down is me misunderstanding. What is my argument? What have I said that you disagree with then?

The car is not good enough, Felipe is not driving good enough, replacing Felipe will not improve the car to WCC winning standard overnight, if you don't agree with that then that's ok

Dude you're funny. I never said the 2010 car was the best on the grid!!! I said it was arguably the best, which means it was one of the top cars and as the name alludes to, can be ARGUED. What a novel thought eh? It did win 5 GP's and had roughly 15 podiums and almost won the WDC. It was quite fast at many GP's. Felipe had a decent season in 2010 but it wasn't great. Again you deflect the real question which is whether or not Felipe is driving good enough. you then imply that I said the F2012 was fine and doesn't need to be improved. And you never come right out and say Felipe isn't doing his job well enough. Instead you say Fernando is a great driver. The car is bad. Fernando is great, Felipe is average so it looks worse than it is. You say anything but what is really happening. Which is the fact that Felipe is on his way out(end of season) because he isn't driving well enough regardless of who his teammate is and how good or bad the car is.

The same with comparing points of Felipe who's finished every grand prix this year to someone who hasn't finished half of them. I hear you point but you refuse again to look at how ridiculous it is. Yes points don't mean everything but dang man, one guy hasn't even finished 3 races. Not the best comparison when one guy has had an opportunity to score more points than his current total, and the other guy hasn't even gotten the opportunity to do the same. The point is if the other guy, Michael would've finished those three GP's he would likely have more points than Felipe. Your point is taken but the comparison is horrible taken in context of the real situation and not just the one fact you want to cherry pick.

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

Name them and explain why then with some quotes.

Looks i don't have to now, you've done that for me.

I'll give you quotes and whatever you want when you stop twisting peoples words to suit you own agenda. People here have made their points pretty clear but you fail to respond back in a coherent manner maybe because it would leave you vulnerable and insecure if you did. Throw all the sly comments you want, but when someone else does the same don't ask for an explanation. Hypocrite.

Fact of the matter is Felipe has been under performing for a very long time, Ferrari acknowledges this and so do the neutrals following the sport. To claim that he is under performing because the car is so bad despite the big update in Barcelona is preposterous. You can make all the excuses you want for him but this has been going on for too long and it cannot be put down to bad luck or whatever else you want to call it. The recent update moved Fernando up the field, a clear indication that the car has improved considerably, but what about Massa? Yes that's right he's still there where we don't want him. Replacing Massa will not improve the car, no one is saying that but it will provide a truer representation of the car's performance, something which Massa will fail to do.

[Greig]

Dude you're funny. I never said the 2010 car was the best on the grid!!! I said it was arguably the best, which means it was one of the top cars and as the name alludes to, can be ARGUED. What a novel thought eh? It did win 5 GP's and had roughly 15 podiums and almost won the WDC. It was quite fast at many GP's. Felipe had a decent season in 2010 but it wasn't great. Again you deflect the real question which is whether or not Felipe is driving good enough. you then imply that I said the F2012 was fine and doesn't need to be improved. And you never come right out and say Felipe isn't doing his job well enough. Instead you say Fernando is a great driver. The car is bad. Fernando is great, Felipe is average so it looks worse than it is. You say anything but what is really happening. Which is the fact that Felipe is on his way out(end of season) because he isn't driving well enough regardless of who his teammate is and how good or bad the car is.

You can argue the 2010 car was the best on the grid all day long, it wasn't.

You quote me saying Felipe is not doing well enough, yet still say in your post that I deflect the question on if he is doing well enough? go figure....and you say I have an agenda? I have also said in this thread that Felipe will be replaced at the end of the season.

Fernando is great, the greatest on the grid and right up there with MS at his peak, and MS destroyed his team mates too (see 2005). I am quite comfortable with that and if you wish to think otherwise then so be it

[REDARMYSOJA]

People want to say to others " you must know better than the team". The team has clearly stated they are not happy with his performance. Last year and this year too. So why it's so hard for them to accept and admit is beyond me.

And just exactly who has said Massa is doing well enough?

I don't think that's even up for argument. Everyone agrees his performance is not good. Some have a different opinion of why though.

The only question is will he be replaced before the season is over.

If some think those of us who don't constantly shout "Massa must go" are nothing but Massa fan boys then they must think Ferrari is nothing but a bunch of Massa fan boys as well since they haven't replaced him yet. .

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Maybe the members here in 2009 have a little bit more respect for Felipe to drag him through the mud like some of our newer members seem to take great delight in doing, I don't see any great defence of Massa here stating he is doing well enough, even his biggest fans admit he is not performing as well as we know he can, so I am not sure why you keep suggestion that there is some sort of denial going on in here, care to point it out as maybe you are seeing things nobody else is?

Just have a look below. Again, people saying it's all the car and Alonso. Even goes so far to say he would be winning in the Lotus.

. Massa is the true measure of the car, and what a normal F1 driver can do in it which shows what a poor and difficult car it is. Massa is the exact same driver he was in 2008, the only difference is his team mate and a much worse car. If he was in that lotus he would be beating Kimi again and fighting for wins. Many people simply cannot comprehend this because they dont understand how good Fernando Alonso is especially in a poor car.

I think the difference between an exceptional driver and the more common drivers really shows when the car is bad. A car with say, very narrow characteristic range, or very sensitive to the tire temperature for example, really sets the top drivers like Alonso, Schumi and Vettel and even Lewis (when he's mind is in it) apart from the rest. These top drivers perhaps are able to react to the changing characteristic to keep the car at the edge, while the other drivers are merely "a passenger" and they cannot push without making mistakes, so they have to drive conservatively just to keep all 4 wheels on track.

This I think is where Massa is having trouble with. When the car is struggling, he's not able to get in tune with the car. He have to be conservative.

Given a fast car, anyone can easily perform well because the car will do what you want, and how you want it to do it. There's no any narrow limits where the driver needs to stay within. When there's a narrow range that the driver have to stay in, this is what set apart the truly great drivers from the rest.

You "+1" this arguement which totally says it's Fernando making Felipe look bad which says Felipe isn't under-performing at all.

our weakest link is not Felipe but the car,

This is wrong. Dead wrong. Felipe is an accurate representation of where the car is, just like Fernando isn't. It's somewhere in the middle. Yes the car needs lots of work. But the car is capable of doing more than Felipe has managed which means he is in fact underperforming.

[Greig]

Looks i don't have to now, you've done that for me.

I'll give you quotes and whatever you want when you stop twisting peoples words to suit you own agenda. People here have made their points pretty clear but you fail to respond back in a coherent manner maybe because it would leave you vulnerable and insecure if you did. Throw all the sly comments you want, but when someone else does the same don't ask for an explanation. Hypocrite.

Fact of the matter is Felipe has been under performing for a very long time, Ferrari acknowledges this and so do the neutrals following the sport. To claim that he is under performing because the car is so bad despite the big update in Barcelona is preposterous. You can make all the excuses you want for him but this has been going on for too long and it cannot be put down to bad luck or whatever else you want to call it. The recent update moved Fernando up the field, a clear indication that the car has improved considerably, but what about Massa? Yes that's right he's still there where we don't want him. Replacing Massa will not improve the car, no one is saying that but it will provide a truer representation of the car's performance, something which Massa will fail to do.

Another who can't read, where have I said Felipe is performing? where have I said he is doing good enough?

Quote me them or I will just assume you are having a little hissy fit, so quotes please.

[Greig]

Just have a look below. Again, people saying it's all the car and Alonso. Even goes so far to say he would be winning in the Lotus.

You "+1" this arguement which totally says it's Fernando making Felipe look bad which says Felipe isn't under-performing at all.

This is wrong. Dead wrong. Felipe is an accurate representation of where the car is, just like Fernando isn't. It's somewhere in the middle. Yes the car needs lots of work. But the car is capable of doing more than Felipe has managed which means he is in fact underperforming.

So 1 person, Hornet is not defending Massa is he? I +1 it as I agreed in principal yes, as would most F1 pundits and drivers. The better drivers can adapt to a poor car and drive around some issues, if you find that wrong then cool. The post by Hornet suggest Alonso is a top driver and Massa is a common driver, I agreed with that, you think that is wrong as well? not quite sure what you are digging at there.

I don't agree that the car being the weak link is wrong, if we built a car that was dominant then I have no doubt Felipe would be a lot closer to Fernando which fits in line with the +1 of Hornet's post. In that in a great car the more common driver will look better than in a poor car.

[REDARMYSOJA]

LINK>>Ferrari Says Massa A Contender For 2013 Race Seat

Ferrari spokesman Luca Colajanni told Brazil's O Estado de S.Paulo newspaper this week: "Felipe has the full confidence of the team, starting with our president.

"We have not decided who will be our driver in 2013 but Felipe is not ruled out," he insisted.

Indeed, while some believe Ferrari has hung a sword of Damocles above Massa's head, others think the Maranello-based team has been patient since the Paulista's recovery from his near-fatal head injuries of 2009.

"We have no evidence that makes us think that Felipe has slowed down because of the accident. Zero," Colajanni said.

F1 doctor Gary Hartstein agreed: "An experience like that (Hungary 2009) changes you, but you can't say that's why Felipe has not won again."

[Greig]

Luca = Felipe fanboy!

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

Another who can't read, where have I said Felipe is performing? where have I said he is doing good enough?

Quote me them or I will just assume you are having a little hissy fit, so quotes please.

Right back at you, and you say I can't read? Maybe you should preach what you say to others.
Where in my post did I say that YOU said Felipe is performing, please quote me..that's right you can't.

You simply cannot blame the car for Massa's performances over the past few years, he is a liability and actually makes the Ferrari look worse than it really is. That is the point I and many are trying to make. To blame the car is plain wrong. You can make all the excuses you want for his poor performances but nothing will sway from the fact that this season he is on course to being beat by the longest margin ever between team mates. This will prove your theory wrong that the car is the problem. (Make no mistake the car is not perfect, but then again whose is this season?)

[Greig]

Right back at you, and you say I can't read? Maybe you should preach what you say to others.
Where in my post did I say that YOU said Felipe is performing, please quote me..that's right you can't.

You are right, I rarely read a post you make, I apologise.

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

You are right, I rarely read a post you make, I apologise.

Well I don't blame you, It's hard to be proven wrong every single time.

[Greig]

Well I don't blame you, It's hard to be proven wrong every single time.

Well you would know

Still waiting for names and quotes of those who hold Massa in higher regard than Ferrari though

[sagi58]

...Maybe the members here in 2009 have a little bit more respect for Felipe to drag him through the mud like some of our newer members seem to take great delight in doing, I don't see any great defence of Massa here stating he is doing well enough, even his biggest fans admit he is not performing as well as we know he can, so I am not sure why you keep suggestion that there is some sort of denial going on in here, care to point it out as maybe you are seeing things nobody else is?

I have to say, this sounds suspiciously as if you are suggesting that only the "older" members on this forum are respectful of Massa!! Looking at his performance, since his accident is NOT being disrespectful!! However, I would suggest to you that rationalizing his race and looking for excuses after each and every race as to why he hasn't done better is definitely disrespectful, as it suggests he needs to be coddled and defended from the big bad boogey man! For pete's sake, let's allow him to keep his dignity, at least!!

[Kiwi Nick]

I think this is pretty simple. In a season where there seems to be great parity between the top 4-5 manufacturers, a team must be able to get points from both of its drivers if it is to have any hope of winning the WCC. A second best car driven by Hamilton and Button or by Vettel and Weber or even Kimi and Grosjean has a better chance of winning the WCC than the best car driven by Alonso and Massa. Alonso has scored 61 points to tie for the lead in the WDC, so I have nothing bad to say about his performance. The#2 drivers at Red Bull, Macca and Lotus have scores 48, 45 and 35 points respectively. One of them scored zero points in one race, one of them scored zero points in 2 races, the other has had two retirements, so they have had their share of bad luck. Massa has scored 2 points, having retired once and failed to score points on three other occasions. It would seem obvious to any impartial observer that Massa is not up to the level of the #2 drivers at Ferrari's main competitors. Certainly Ferrari are motivated to provide Massa with a competitive car, there is nothing to be gained to do less.

Where should we place the blame for the lack of performance?