Felipe Massa sucks, says Suzie

[Ophidian786]

LOL you just really do not understand, Michael on 2 points has not helped the team any more than Massa on 2 points, they both have 2 points no matter how you spin it. Someone said Massa is not helping because he only has 2 points, he could have 20 points and still not be performing well enough.

Why try and claim the 2010 car was the best car, just to say oh Felipe never won a race in it, is that spin?

I really don't understand your position on this FM / MS scenario.

Your point is this: MS is not being slagged off for having 2 points yet FM is, why the inequity in views between the two?

To me this is too vehemently clear for it to be your actually argument.

Could you kindly explain? I am genuinely confused with your position on this argument (I have read all your previous posts on this topic).

I summarise it thus far as follows: you think FM doesn't deserve criticism as it is unfair to be critical based on the points. You use MS as a example. He has 2 points yet people think he is doing well.

If the above-mentioned is a correct reflection on your views, then I answer as follows.

MS has had more DNFs than FM: so this can be considered outside his control, besides the last race.

The difference between NR's points (41) and MS (2) is 39.

Between FA (61) and FM (2) is 59.

Surely there is no comparison.

I use the word 'comparison' wearily, as you argue the above, but say this is not a comparison. I understand what you mean to an extent: i.e. don't go by just the points. I would argue the contrary, lets go by the points and 'compare' MS with FM. How poorly has FM performed to have the same number of points as a driver with 3 times more DNFs in arguably a worse car?

Edit:

Btw, I am 100% against getting rid of FM this year. He has 15 more opportunities to prove himself, then we shall see.

[Greig]

I really don't understand your position on this FM / MS scenario.

Your point is this: MS is not being slagged off for having 2 points yet FM is, why the inequity in views between the two?

To me this is too vehemently clear for it to be your actually argument.

Could you kindly explain? I am genuinely confused with your position on this argument (I have read all your previous posts on this topic).

No my point was having 2 points does not mean you have driven badly. As I have explained 100 times already. I am not comparing them as they are in different cars all I did was use an example of a driver on 2 points driving pretty well, and a driver on 2 points doing pretty bad and how it shows the points is not a good guide as to a drivers performance.

As I originally said it would be a very black and white viewpoint to judge a driver on a points total alone, in response to a comment that Felipe is not helping the team just because he has 2 points. I really don't see the need to go over and over it and over it again though as its such a non-issue for the topic really. I have clearly said he is not performing and will be replaced, I really don't know what else I can say? He has had 2 decent races out of 5 following on from last year off course his drive is at risk, it's not like he is going to stay with us for eternity.

Just because I am not dancing on his grave wanting him out now, does not mean I am defending him, seems to me that some on here are positively delighted to see Felipe struggle and can't wait to twist the knife into his back, sorry but I will not be that person. All I can ever ask from Ferrari as a fan is that they give 100% effort and commitment, if it is not good enough then so be it, I don't feel Felipe has let me down in this area and he will still be there giving his all until Ferrari say no more. I also trust Ferrari to make the right decisions even if I don't really agree with them, so until they make a decision that changes anything I will keep giving a bit of support to a Ferrari driver giving us his all to do better for the team.

[mark p]

F1 fanatic have a pole on who should replace Massa. I attempted to post but I seem to be awaiting moderation after a naughty comment at the weekend to winde up Hamilton fans. Oh well

[Crucial_Xtreme]

F1 fanatic have a pole on who should replace Massa. I attempted to post but I seem to be awaiting moderation after a naughty comment at the weekend to winde up Hamilton fans. Oh well

Honestly, hopefully Felipe won't need to be replaced. Hopefully he can come to terms with himself and realize what ever it is that has been holding him back. At the same time, hopefully the team make some serious improvement to the car so that it's easier to drive for both drivers.

I've supported Felipe since before 2006(as test driver) and have taken serious flak from my mates especially at the end of last year and even throughout this year for supporting him. I think he can do it, honestly. I do think the accident has taken something out of him, or in his subconscious something has clicked that maybe lingers in the back of his mind and/or as has been suggested while perfectly capable of normal eyesight, maybe he lost some of his above normal eyesight abilities. I have no clue honestly, grasping for straws as to the cause.
But the point is I still genuinely believe he's capable of being a better than average driver. This opinion I have has diminished a little this year but I still think he can do it. The other real question that should be asked is can someone do it better? Ferrari aren't always going to be able to build the fastest car on the grid, but you need two drivers that can extract the maximum from the car(or close to it) in order to have a shot at the WCC. RB last year for instance, Mark wasn't on Seb's level but he did contribute to the Constructors Title.
If Felipe can regain his composure he can do it. Obviously the question is will he.

[PaulW]

Just because I am not dancing on his grave
twist the knife into his back
sorry but I will not be that person.

But you do have an enjoyable talent for doing that to an other driver I can think of

[Nand0Nand0]

Honestly, hopefully Felipe won't need to be replaced. Hopefully he can come to terms with himself and realize what ever it is that has been holding him back. At the same time, hopefully the team make some serious improvement to the car so that it's easier to drive for both drivers.

I've supported Felipe since before 2006(as test driver) and have taken serious flak from my mates especially at the end of last year and even throughout this year for supporting him. I think he can do it, honestly. I do think the accident has taken something out of him, or in his subconscious something has clicked that maybe lingers in the back of his mind and/or as has been suggested while perfectly capable of normal eyesight, maybe he lost some of his above normal eyesight abilities. I have no clue honestly, grasping for straws as to the cause.
But the point is I still genuinely believe he's capable of being a better than average driver. This opinion I have has diminished a little this year but I still think he can do it. The other real question that should be asked is can someone do it better? Ferrari aren't always going to be able to build the fastest car on the grid, but you need two drivers that can extract the maximum from the car(or close to it) in order to have a shot at the WCC. RB last year for instance, Mark wasn't on Seb's level but he did contribute to the Constructors Title.
If Felipe can regain his composure he can do it. Obviously the question is will he.

Couldn't agree more. I too believe and hope Felipe can turn it around. Personally I don't think the accident is a bigger factor as form and general pressure is. Felipe needs to somehow get all the speculation out of his head and simply put together a good race. Form is a strange thing, and he is out of form ATM. But a good race could turn that round for him.

Forza Felipe, get that form back in Monaco

[Ophidian786]

Honestly, hopefully Felipe won't need to be replaced. Hopefully he can come to terms with himself and realize what ever it is that has been holding him back. At the same time, hopefully the team make some serious improvement to the car so that it's easier to drive for both drivers.

I've supported Felipe since before 2006(as test driver) and have taken serious flak from my mates especially at the end of last year and even throughout this year for supporting him. I think he can do it, honestly. I do think the accident has taken something out of him, or in his subconscious something has clicked that maybe lingers in the back of his mind and/or as has been suggested while perfectly capable of normal eyesight, maybe he lost some of his above normal eyesight abilities. I have no clue honestly, grasping for straws as to the cause.
But the point is I still genuinely believe he's capable of being a better than average driver. This opinion I have has diminished a little this year but I still think he can do it. The other real question that should be asked is can someone do it better? Ferrari aren't always going to be able to build the fastest car on the grid, but you need two drivers that can extract the maximum from the car(or close to it) in order to have a shot at the WCC. RB last year for instance, Mark wasn't on Seb's level but he did contribute to the Constructors Title.
If Felipe can regain his composure he can do it. Obviously the question is will he.

Completely agree with this viewpoint.

@ Grieg:

I reiterate my second-last paragraph:

"I use the word 'comparison' wearily, as you argue the above, but say this is not a comparison. I understand what you mean to an extent: i.e. don't go by just the points. I would argue the contrary, lets go by the points and 'compare' MS with FM. How poorly has FM performed to have the same number of points as a driver with 3 times more DNFs in arguably a worse car?"

The argument wasn't FM is crap because he has only 2 points. The members are discussing FM's lack of contribution in comparison to FA.

If we then use your contention that FM could be driving superbly and still getting 2 points. With only 1 DNF, what was he doing in the other races?

Our car is arguably better than Force India, yet Nico Hulkenberg (also 1 DNF) has 3 points.

Our car is on terms with, if not marginally better than Sauber, yet Perez has 22 points and Kobayashi 19.

You really do have a falsifiable argument. It is a shame I have to describe the flaws of your argument. Surely this is an exaggeration of the use of 'layman's terms.'

[mark p]

Couldn't agree more. I too believe and hope Felipe can turn it around. Personally I don't think the accident is a bigger factor as form and general pressure is. Felipe needs to somehow get all the speculation out of his head and simply put together a good race. Form is a strange thing, and he is out of form ATM. But a good race could turn that round for him.

Forza Felipe, get that form back in Monaco

I agree. Alonso has destroyed all his teamates bar Hamilton. Its easy to create a problem but what are the solutions? Whats harder rediscovering Massas ability which is proven or spending millions to get another driver who we do not know will work causing distraction when the team needs to focus on the car. The only driver in the past who has matched Alonso is Hamilton but you would have to wait until next year. Massa can come back otherwise next year it's Hamilton or Vettel (Kubica if fit) all others are below Massa I would rather dig to rediscover the potential than change for worse.

[Greig]

@ Grieg:

Massa's time is up, 2 Bloody points ,compared to Alonso's 61 points says it all. He's not helping the team in any way.

Is what I replied too, and how its a black and white view to adhere too I never said it means Felipe has performed, really if it makes you feel better then I retract any mention of MS, I sincerely apologise since it's clearly a big issue for you. I had no intention or desire to compare Felipe with MS or any other driver of any other team.

[Ophidian786]

Is what I replied too, and how its a black and white view to adhere too I never said it means Felipe has performed, really if it makes you feel better then I retract any mention of MS, I sincerely apologise since it's clearly a big issue for you. I had no intention or desire to compare Felipe with MS or any other driver of any other team.

You will be surprised to know that I am seriously unconcerned of the comparison. To put it simply: I really couldn't give a ship.

What I didn't like is your replies to those that disagreed with you. You really shouldn't take things personally.

I am a big fan of these forums, and fully appreciate the contributions by certain members such as crucial extreme and scuderiafan, I really don't know how they get a hold of the information they do. It would be a detriment to these forums for these guys to get p'd off and leave. As a passionate fan of ferrari since the age of 7, you can imagine that I appreciate all the information I get, particularly when I can't get it myself without considerable effort.

For the sake both of us and all the Tifosi, lets hope Massa gets it together.

[Tifoso]

For the sake both of us and all the Tifosi, lets hope Massa gets it together.

This, in the end, is the result that all of us want. We all want to see him do well.

[Ophidian786]

This, in the end, is the result that all of us want. We all want to see him do well.

Agreed.

Now, better get some sleep, got work in 6 hours, lol.

[Cheeseman]

If there were odds available at the beginning of the season that Maldonado will win a race in 2012, nobody would have bet on it but we have all seen how quickly things can change. If Massa wins in Monaco he will be a hero. He might be down but not out

[Chicane]

imo, one of the reason why massa having much of a disaster this year, is because (probably) the f2012 is pretty much design to the driving characteristic of alonso, i've red a post of someone here that massa is driving the way he was driving back in 2008 the championship year of massa, meaning massa is driving as hard as he can, he just can't get to grips to the way the f2012 behave. Unfortunately for him his not that flexible enough to hone his skills and adapt to what the car wants him to drive.

The problem he has can't be solved overnight sadly..and the ferrari leadership are demanding performance from him asap, i don't he can do it in monaco, i don't know when he can do it..i can imagine how much pressure he has right now.. its just really a matter of time before we see someone new alonsgside alonso..

[Nova]

Indeed Ferrari has built a lot of not so good (to put it mildly) car, just as they've made some wonderful cars.

So basically, it's not an excuse to beg for a better car for the drivers all the time. This is the team they signed for, this is the team they're driving for. Certain things are expected from them, the team has been more than loyal to Felippe and I am sure there's not one damn soul here to say otherwise, but guess what, the team needs the WCC, infact I am sure YOU know that Ferrari has as top priority the WCC -then, the wdc.

As for 2012, I don't accept that the car is a dog, NOT ANYMORE, a car that finishes 2nd in Spain is simply not a dog. I don't say it's a killing machine, but certainly it's not a dog that cannot be driven. And no, I don't accept the argument that the real indicator of where the car's performance lies is Massa. That cleary is stupid to say. Yes, Alonso is really fast, but right now, Massa is SNAIL SLOW. And this is what he needs to deal with or simply be gone.

As for all the arguments bout how people forget his performances against Kimi and all that, well sorry peeps, memories don't give points, do they?

Your line "Massa is snail slow", well yes, he's not doing so well. He's a Ferrari driver, so I have to hope that at each race he performs better, gets that ole
zing back, yaknow? Its pretty simple to understand, especially for all of the cruel remarks here. He is still a human being. Im sure Ferrari knows what to do with their situations MUCH better than we do. It is easy to be upset with someone, but sheesh, if people are that cruel to a human being, I'd hate to see them around animals. That is really not intended for you, Im simply stating whats been going on in this thread.

[Nova]

imo, one of the reason why massa having much of a disaster this year, is because (probably) the f2012 is pretty much design to the driving characteristic of alonso, i've red a post of someone here that massa is driving the way he was driving back in 2008 the championship year of massa, meaning massa is driving as hard as he can, he just can't get to grips to the way the f2012 behave. Unfortunately for him his not that flexible enough to hone his skills and adapt to what the car wants him to drive.

The problem he has can't be solved overnight sadly..and the ferrari leadership are demanding performance from him asap, i don't he can do it in monaco, i don't know when he can do it..i can imagine how much pressure he has right now.. its just really a matter of time before we see someone new alonsgside alonso..

OR, he starts driving really well and stays. At least thats what I hope happens. If he is let go next year, fine, thats Ferrari's decision, but I sure do hope he starts tearing it up in the meantime.

[impactX]

If there were odds available at the beginning of the season that Maldonado will win a race in 2012, nobody would have bet on it but we have all seen how quickly things can change. If Massa wins in Monaco he will be a hero. He might be down but not out

His form is not there, and the pressure Ferrari and the public gave him is not helping. Either way, people will bet on Alonso being lapped before betting on Massa to win.

[brembo man]

Alonso said his car just wasn't fast enough to catch Pastor at the end. If he could have got within a second of Pastor he could have used the rocket mode . Massa is also driving a 2012 Ferrari, and he along with everyone else ain't got Alonso's ability to gut the car into 2nd place like he did. Massas one of us, Ferrari! Hope for a podium not a replacement.

[Chicane]

OR, he starts driving really well and stays. At least thats what I hope happens. If he is let go next year, fine, thats Ferrari's decision, but I sure do hope he starts tearing it up in the meantime.

I do hope he can turn things around..but ferrari did all it can to try to help him, they even made him a new chassis just to sort out whatever problem he has..but still..hardly make it to Q3 and almost a second off to alonso's time almost at every GP.

personally i love to see him stay..but the way things are now his not helping the team..

[Oracle]

I don't think anyone has said it will make us win the WCC. You obviously don't agree though that it could help chances. It seems you are doing nothing but making excuses for Felipe by blaming the car and saying that it's fantastic Alonso that's making him look bad. It's not Felipe at all. Which is preposterous. So what's the excuse for 2011? It was clearly the 3rd best car that Felipe couldn't do anything with. What about 2010? Which was a better season than 2011. But Felipe only managed to win(I give him Germany) GP. He didn't even get in the top 5 in WDC with arguably the best car.
I'm just sick and tired of people making excuses for him and acting like he's driving ok. This type of thinking inside & outside of Ferrari has only perpetuated the problem.

Do I think getting rid of Massa would make us win the WCC? No. However I do think it would give us a better shot. The car can clearly go better than he's driving it. It doesn't have to go at the same pace as Fernando. But Felipe is admittedly under performing yet people here are making excuses for it and some are just ignoring it all together.

In 2011 Massa finished 6th in the drivers championship in the 3rd best car which was the maximum position possible for him Behind both Mclaren, Redbull drivers, and Alonso. Reading your posts its clear you just dont get it. Just because he is getting dominated by Alonso does not mean he is under performing. Is an F40 under performing if it gets blown away by an F1 car? No, its going as fast as it possiblly can but its just not fast enough, and that is exactly whats happening at Ferrari now. Alonso is simply too good, Massa is not under performing, at least not relative to himself. Thats what you need to understand. Its been that way for 3 seasons and will be the same for 20. The F40 will never be a match for the F1 car no matter how hard it tries. All that help is if Ferrari give Massa a better car that is easier to drive, this will close the gap between him and Alonso.

If you want to sack Massa you need to find someone who is quicker, and that is very very hard because Massa is a proven fast driver. Some of the names I see thrown around on forums are an utter joke. Drivers that have already been sacked from midfield teams for gods sake. Massa would beat them all. If I was Ferrari I would probably take a chance with di resta because he has always been a quality driver, and destroyed Vettel in F3 as team mates, or Kubica, other than that forget it. It would be change for the sake of change. Alonso will thrash them all. I woudnt mind Hamilton actually. He has grown on me, and is a classic Ferrari driver.

[F2002]

In 2011 Massa finished 6th in the drivers championship in the 3rd best car which was the maximum position possible for him Behind both Mclaren, Redbull drivers, and Alonso. Reading your posts its clear you just dont get it. Just because he is getting dominated by Alonso does not mean he is under performing. Is an F40 under performing if it gets blown away by an F1 car? No, its going as fast as it possiblly can but its just not fast enough, and that is exactly whats happening at Ferrari now. Alonso is simply too good, Massa is not under performing, at least not relative to himself. Thats what you need to understand. Its been that way for 3 seasons and will be the same for 20. The F40 will never be a match for the F1 car no matter how hard it tries. All that help is if Ferrari give Massa a better car that is easier to drive, this will close the gap between him and Alonso.

If you want to sack Massa you need to find someone who is quicker, and that is very very hard because Massa is a proven fast driver. Some of the names I see thrown around on forums are an utter joke. Drivers that have already been sacked from midfield teams for gods sake. Massa would beat them all. If I was Ferrari I would probably take a chance with di resta because he has always been a quality driver, and destroyed Vettel in F3 as team mates, or Kubica, other than that forget it. It would be change for the sake of change. Alonso will thrash them all. I woudnt mind Hamilton actually. He has grown on me, and is a classic Ferrari driver.

You are right with respect to the unfair comparison between Massa and Alonso.

At the same, though, we can compare his current two points with what others, who are less able than him as you say, and have inferior cars, have managed so far this season.

Case in point is the fact that 15 out of the 24 drivers on the grid have already managed to make it to Q3 at least once. And we're still at the beginning of the championship (and there are a few very slow cars out there....).

I agree that it is not good to compare him to Alonso, but cannot agree when you say that he is not underperforming when compared to his goodself.

Whichever way everyone wants to look at it, he is almost last in the championship. It doesn't necessarily warrant him being fired mid-season, let the team decide, but that is not what to be expected out of a Ferrari driver, Alonso or not and F2012 or not.

[Super M]

In 2011 Massa finished 6th in the drivers championship in the 3rd best car which was the maximum position possible for him Behind both Mclaren, Redbull drivers, and Alonso. Reading your posts its clear you just dont get it. Just because he is getting dominated by Alonso does not mean he is under performing. Is an F40 under performing if it gets blown away by an F1 car? No, its going as fast as it possiblly can but its just not fast enough, and that is exactly whats happening at Ferrari now. Alonso is simply too good, Massa is not under performing, at least not relative to himself. Thats what you need to understand. Its been that way for 3 seasons and will be the same for 20. The F40 will never be a match for the F1 car no matter how hard it tries. All that help is if Ferrari give Massa a better car that is easier to drive, this will close the gap between him and Alonso.

If you want to sack Massa you need to find someone who is quicker, and that is very very hard because Massa is a proven fast driver. Some of the names I see thrown around on forums are an utter joke. Drivers that have already been sacked from midfield teams for gods sake. Massa would beat them all. If I was Ferrari I would probably take a chance with di resta because he has always been a quality driver, and destroyed Vettel in F3 as team mates, or Kubica, other than that forget it. It would be change for the sake of change. Alonso will thrash them all. I woudnt mind Hamilton actually. He has grown on me, and is a classic Ferrari driver.

Sorry Mr Oracle, But i do not agree with your comment ( no offence please )

But uummm, if you COMPARE an F40 vs F2012, THEN yes, you have a point!.....but clearly you are missing something really serious here.....Massa cant drive this car! and its clear to me that he as an F1 driver, CANT adapt to this car. One can't compare an F40 vs F2012 like you have.....sorry, that's just not comparing equal cars mate.

The way i see it.......Massa does not like it when someone is faster than him......and this has been seen when raikonen won the wdc in his first year at ferrari. Now that Alonso is kicking his backside, Massa goes on a moaning session, saying the car is this and the car is that........Errrm hey Mr Massa, how about admitting that you can't cope and deal with someone faster than you ??

(just my point of view )

[croALOfanclub]

Seriously..?

This thread is now 14pages, that would indicate that we've all got opinions that we want to voice, is there really not sufficient forum members that can have a healthy debate on this subject without it descending into a slanging match..?

Weak..!

well,than you changed your story from a few month ago!
Massa did as well,he now drives even worse!
my vote for replacment is well anyone whit drivers licence and anyone whitout it!
opinion is what you want opinion you get

[Tifosi]

well,than you changed your story from a few month ago!
Massa did as well,he now drives even worse!
my vote for replacment is well anyone whit drivers licence and anyone whitout it!
opinion is what you want opinion you get

So basically you are only interested in Massa going, not how any form of replacement would benefit Ferrari, either in the short or long term.

Some management tactic

[croALOfanclub]

So basically you are only interested in Massa going, not how any form of replacement would benefit Ferrari, either in the short or long term.

Some management tactic

i don't care about Massa what so ever,i don't care who is other driver in Ferrari all i care about is Senna's inheritor!
But Ferrari drivers have a reputation to look after and Massa is just an disgrace for the team!
people are starting to compare Carteham whit Ferrari because of his performance!

[Tifosi]

i don't care about Massa what so ever,i don't care who is other driver in Ferrari all i care about is Senna's inheritor!
But Ferrari drivers have a reputation to look after and Massa is just an disgrace for the team!
people are starting to compare Carteham whit Ferrari because of his performance!

Huh?

I didn't ask you about how you felt about Massa. I don't care how you feel about him either. I asked you to explain how removing him now would benefit Ferrari. Read up!

However, having read the rest of what you typed, the answer becomes clear.

You don't have any idea or suggestion or opinion of how to improve Ferrari, you are only worried about your pride about Ferrari and a desire to hold that against Massa lol. What's up? Are your F1 friends upsetting you with jokes about your favourite team? If you can't discuss a reason for your "solution" to Ferrari's problems, why should anyone care about your opinion when its based on nothing but your own pride?

Way to go Ferrari supporter

[Greig]

I am a big fan of these forums, and fully appreciate the contributions by certain members such as crucial extreme and scuderiafan, I really don't know how they get a hold of the information they do. It would be a detriment to these forums for these guys to get p'd off and leave. As a passionate fan of ferrari since the age of 7, you can imagine that I appreciate all the information I get, particularly when I can't get it myself without considerable effort.

For the sake both of us and all the Tifosi, lets hope Massa gets it together.

LOL so you are saying nobody should disagree with some members because they post info? join up at f1technical.net or twitter and you will get more info than what is posted here in general as we don't really specialise in the technical aspect most of our members just like to comment on racing, that is not to say the info posted is not appreciated or welcome here, just remember it's not always correct. Surely though if we are following that line of thought, since I pay the bills for this forum then nobody should be upsetting me in case I don't pay no more and the info you feel is more important than opinions would not be here anyway, tricky one isn't it But personally I prefer to have varying opinions and debate them, it's only the internet not real life and at the end of the day means nothing to what Ferrari will do.

I apologise if you feel I offended you or any other member. There is other members who have not agreed with the member you mention as well FYI but if you feel I have upset them or you then again I apologise.

[FER]

LOL so you are saying nobody should disagree with some members because they post info? join up at f1technical.net or twitter and you will get more info than what is posted here in general as we don't really specialise in the technical aspect most of our members just like to comment on racing, that is not to say the info posted is not appreciated or welcome here, just remember it's not always correct. Surely though if we are following that line of thought, since I pay the bills for this forum then nobody should be upsetting me in case I don't pay no more and the info you feel is more important than opinions would not be here anyway, tricky one isn't it But personally I prefer to have varying opinions and debate them, it's only the internet not real life and at the end of the day means nothing to what Ferrari will do.

I apologise if you feel I offended you or any other member. There is other members who have not agreed with the member you mention as well FYI but if you feel I have upset them or you then again I apologise.

lol

If someone feels sad maybe it's more appropriate to join a flower-forum-dot-com, though I doubt there is more peace.
You didn't offend anyone, so everything is OK. It was a nice discussion, at the start I just didn't get you mean Massa's performance ain't good enough as well.
And this would be ridicolous.
The car is a completely different issue, because having a much better car and FM scoring with it within next 5 races 4 points only is still not enough.

[Oracle]

You are right with respect to the unfair comparison between Massa and Alonso.

At the same, though, we can compare his current two points with what others, who are less able than him as you say, and have inferior cars, have managed so far this season.

Case in point is the fact that 15 out of the 24 drivers on the grid have already managed to make it to Q3 at least once. And we're still at the beginning of the championship (and there are a few very slow cars out there....).

You are making another crucial mistake in comparing the Ferrari to the other cars you assume are inferior, based on the performances on Alonso. This is clearly flawed because the saubers, williams, mercedes, force india, torro rosso sauber, are not driven by Alonso level drivers.

Let me present this scenario.

What if Alonso had the same performance advantage over all those drivers as he has had over all of his team mates (other than hamilton), and this allowed him to beat all of them, despite driving an inferior car? This would mean Massa would be driving no worse than any of them and is simply putting the car where a non genius can, and the only problem is the Ferrari is so crap, and that they only have 1 Alonso. This is the most likely scenario.

[Oracle]

Sorry Mr Oracle, But i do not agree with your comment ( no offence please )

But uummm, if you COMPARE an F40 vs F2012, THEN yes, you have a point!.....but clearly you are missing something really serious here.....Massa cant drive this car! and its clear to me that he as an F1 driver, CANT adapt to this car. One can't compare an F40 vs F2012 like you have.....sorry, that's just not comparing equal cars mate.

The way i see it.......Massa does not like it when someone is faster than him......and this has been seen when raikonen won the wdc in his first year at ferrari. Now that Alonso is kicking his backside, Massa goes on a moaning session, saying the car is this and the car is that........Errrm hey Mr Massa, how about admitting that you can't cope and deal with someone faster than you ??

(just my point of view )

Thats right its not comparing equal cars, just as Alonso vs Massa is not comparing equal talents. You are also right that Massa cannot drive this car but the key point is nobody can unless they are a genius.