Felipe Massa sucks, says Suzie

**F2002** · 19th May 2012, 09:41

Originally Posted by bonzo

Meaning they will not fire Felipe but at season end he will retire "upon his own will" and Bruno Senna will be signed to replace him.

Or find a Chinese driver, using the same logic...

**impactX** · 19th May 2012, 09:43

Also, we have come to accept that one driver is at least 0.3-0.5 second lap faster than the other and the scary part is that we have taken such acceptance as norm. On the other hand, we do not expect one driver to have a clear advantage over the other in Mclaren today.

**F2002** · 19th May 2012, 09:44

Originally Posted by Oracle

Of course he has not performed well, relative to Alonso, but the key point, and one that you any many others are missing is that Massa is operating at 100% of his potential but the problem is its not good enough, just as a HRT driven at 100% still has no chance against a Redbull. That is the cold facts. Now you claim he has the potential to probably equal Alonso's race pace but that is just wishful thinking and something you hoped was true but its not even close. He is not quick enough to equal his race pace and never will be , thats why Alonso is one of the best drivers of all time and Massa is not.

You are still thinking that Massa is only operating at 90% or whatever of his potential, that is wrong.

What's your definition of "potential" here ?

**F2002** · 19th May 2012, 09:45

Originally Posted by impactX

Also, we have come to accept that one driver is at least 0.3-0.5 second lap faster than the other and the scaru part is that we have taken such acceptance as norm. On the other hand, we do not expect one driver to have a clear advantage over the other in Mclaren today.

Except for the last race or two perhaps, I don't think that we have seen a clear-cut dominance at Mclaren.

**Dino** · 19th May 2012, 10:06

Originally Posted by Oracle

And you havent realised just how bad the ferrari is. I think our car has overall been at the level of the force indias and torro rosso's. Just a side note, everyone talks about how bad the 1992 ferrari was, well Ivan capelli had an average grid position of 10th , while Massa 14th. Capellis avg race finish was about 9th or 10th, Massas is something like 14th. Surely no one would suggest Massa is a worse driver than ivan capelli?

Most of you are PARTLY right.
Alonso so honestly admitted that he is over performing, and the true potential of the F2012 is not the Spanish result.
But it is also true that Felipe is under performing by a large margin!
Fernando has always given his Team mates a hard time [except for Lewis].
He outclassed Trulli,Villeneuve,Fisichella and Piquet but never to a degree he is dominating Massa at the moment.
I hope to be proved wrong but i can't imagine Massa driving the F2012 as Alonso is doing.
A gap of 0.300/0.400 in race pace would maybe be tolerated but somehow even this seems out of reach for our Felipe.
And i agree that no one at the moment can just get into the F2012 and be competitive as some are hoping.

**Oracle** · 19th May 2012, 10:24

Originally Posted by F2002

What's your definition of "potential" here ?

talent.

**Oracle** · 19th May 2012, 10:27

Originally Posted by Dino

Most of you are PARTLY right.
He outclassed Trulli,Villeneuve,Fisichella and Piquet but never to a degree he is dominating Massa at the moment.
.

Very different regulations, no driver aids, and because tyres are so bad, it puts more focus on ability to adapt, something which is Fernandos greatest strength = Utter domination. Under 2007 rules Massa would be closer.

**Jose-Lorca Fan** · 19th May 2012, 10:40

Originally Posted by Hornet

Ferrari's F2012 is definitely way better than Force India or Torro Rosso. To suggest its the same as those team's car is just misguided.

There's no way any human can possibly put a Force India or Torro Rosso in P3 or P2 in Spain last week.

Correct, and I'll dare say that it's even better than the Mercedes overall.

**Greig** · 19th May 2012, 10:53

Very hard to say which car is better or worse, if we put Alonso in a Merc or Force India etc I would expect him to put the car higher than their current drivers. For all we know the Sauber could be the greatest car ever, just their drivers are not getting the max from it.

**F2002** · 19th May 2012, 14:49

Guess we have exhausted many of our arguments.

Hopefully, a fantastic race in Monaco and beyond by Felipe, will silence those who, like me, believe that his performance this year is not entirely due to issues with F2012.

Of course I want Felipe to stay, beyond 2012 as well, but I also want Ferrari to return to winning ways.

**Hornet** · 19th May 2012, 16:00

Originally Posted by Oracle

Very different regulations, no driver aids, and because tyres are so bad, it puts more focus on ability to adapt, something which is Fernandos greatest strength = Utter domination. Under 2007 rules Massa would be closer.

Speaking of rules changes, I do have my suspicion (which is nothing more than guessing

) that Massa's struggle may be related to the loss of downforce due to the changes in the diffuser design which apart from losing downforce, does affects the balance of the car too as the rear may become less stable. As I've mentioned and you mentioned too, Alonso is just better at adapting to the changes in the car's behavior and perhaps Massa is still struggling with something that has been changing every year since 2009! Look at this.

We all know that in 2008, Massa was at the best form he ever was in his entire racing career. And then this happened.

That equates to a massive loss of downforce. But we know that wasn't what happened in 2009 because Brawn found a loophole and manged to get back a large portion of the downforce lost through the double decked diffuser.

In 2010, Ferrari too managed to do that with our own double diffuser, and Massa performance this year was actually good. Could have won in Germany as we all remembered.

Then in 2011, we finally lost those downforce again as all teams now have to obey that design we see above. Blown diffuser concept manage to improve the performance of that miniature diffuser but its no where enough to recover the downforce lost. And EBD is very sensitive as it depends on the engine gas. This is when Massa started to struggle.

This year, we further lost that extra downforce from EBD. The car balance once again changed. So perhaps, Massa once again finding himself with a car that behaves in a foreign way and is struggling to adept. One of Alonso strength was his ability to adept better which may explain why he manages just fine despite all the changes every year. This may explain the big gap between Alonso and Massa, especially at tracks like Barcelona.

Anyway that's just my opinion.

**wisepie** · 19th May 2012, 17:25

Originally Posted by bonzo

Meaning they will not fire Felipe but at season end he will retire "upon his own will" and Bruno Senna will be signed to replace him.

Someone called Senna in the Ferrari sounds like a match made in heaven, but I don't think Bruno is in the same mould as Ayrton. There are some up and coming Italians in the Ferrari Driver Academy so if Felipe has to be moved on in the future, how about an Italian. I'm old enough to remember Bandini and Scarfiotti, so it can work! In the meantime, let's just let Felipe do what he can to restore our faith, Massa and Ferrari have been part of my life for too long to ***** it away!

**Greig** · 19th May 2012, 17:50

If Felipe is replaced next year I fully expect it to be for Perez, in the academy and fits the South America role for marketing for both Ferrari and Santander.

PaulW · 19th May 2012, 18:09

Ferrari wants to win, and that's the driver pairing they will look for. Whatever else drivers happen to be will be incidental.

**Greig** · 19th May 2012, 18:23

Originally Posted by PaulW

Ferrari wants to win, and that's the driver pairing they will look for. Whatever else drivers happen to be will be incidental.

That explains all the Brazilians at Ferrari since 2000

Rubens, Felipe and Burti. Not saying they are only hired for that reason but it does seem to help, Burti was such a strange one.

PaulW · 19th May 2012, 19:36

Originally Posted by Greig

That explains all the Brazilians at Ferrari since 2000

Rubens, Felipe and Burti. Not saying they are only hired for that reason but it does seem to help, Burti was such a strange one.

Or maybe there were just a lot of South/Central American drivers? Burti wasn't that big a surprise, I think he beat Button in the season they raced in F3.

**Greig** · 19th May 2012, 19:47

Originally Posted by PaulW

Or maybe there were just a lot of South/Central American drivers? Burti wasn't that big a surprise, I think he beat Button in the season they raced in F3.

Burti signing for Ferrari was a pretty surprising move, he was replaced at Jaguar after 4 races or something then he was average enough in the Prost against a very past it Alesi then had that massive crash at Spa then turned up as a Ferrari test driver.

**Jas** · 20th May 2012, 13:59

intresting...must read!!!! http://totalf1.com/full_story/view/4...Ferrari_drive/

**Hornet** · 20th May 2012, 14:26

No surprise there that Massa is one of the candidates for the second seat in Ferrari.

Massa knows he's under more scrutiny from Ferrari this year as the team will be watching all the potential candidates so the pressure he's in is probably higher than past season. I hope he'll be able to cope and take it one race at a time.

**sagi58** · 20th May 2012, 17:40

Originally Posted by Jas

intresting...must read!!!! http://totalf1.com/full_story/view/4...Ferrari_drive/

For more of the same:

F1: Ferrari Says Massa A Contender For 2013 Race Seat

Originally Posted by Hornet

...Massa knows he's under more scrutiny from Ferrari this year as the team will be watching all the potential candidates so the pressure he's in is probably higher than past season...

After all, the rumour is not that Ferrari is extending his contract.

**Ophidian786** · 20th May 2012, 19:27

I am a fan of Massa's, think he has contributed his share to the team.

However, just because he has remained loyal to the team doesn't mean we can overlook the facts. Ferrari have and will continue to give Massa an opportunity to prove himself, but it is a serious question now: do we need somebody more capable?

I honestly believe that if Kubica had not had his crash, he would almost guaranteed to be in the second seat come 2013. The question now is more complicated.

From those available can any of them do a better job than mass? My answer is yes. There are some very hungary drivers out there, though it will always be a gamble.

**F2002** · 21st May 2012, 13:46

http://en.espnf1.com/mercedes/motors...ml?CMP=OTC-RSS

Aha ! - so no Di Resta after all.

Schumi on his way back perhaps...?

**jkwaggener** · 21st May 2012, 13:50

IMHO, Felipe has passed his expiration date, as much as I like him it is time for him to go...

**Crucial_Xtreme** · 21st May 2012, 14:17

Montezemolo to the Scuderia: “The Championship is in our own hands”

We must capitalize on that, with each one of us giving our very best at home and at the race track, including Massa who must bring home the results we expect from him.

http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formu...own-hands.aspx

**jkwaggener** · 21st May 2012, 14:25

I really feel that Ferrari needs to put a fork in Felipe, unless they want #7 and #8 next year they need to realize he is all done and trough...

**Alonsofan2002** · 21st May 2012, 14:50

Casey Stoner will drive for us next season

**FFFerrari** · 22nd May 2012, 04:00

Let's move on, shall we?

1. Felipe won't be replaced mid-season. No one can get in grips with the car fast enough to save the WCC except Felipe himself. (Well perhaps if we clone Fernando...) If he IS replaced, the team management has made a serious error.
2. There are preciously few real options for the other Ferrari seat even for 2013. I would count Rosberg, Perez and Massa(!) as the front runners with some really farfetched possibilities of Webber, Grosjean and Bianchi. Felipe can raise his stock here by starting to rack in points, other drivers need to prove their worth in their respective teams. Currently I see Perez as a real choice.
3. Felipe is struggling, Schumacher is struggling. No need to deny that or argue about who is struggling more.

**Tifosi** · 22nd May 2012, 08:09

Originally Posted by FFFerrari

Let's move on, shall we?

1. Felipe won't be replaced mid-season. No one can get in grips with the car fast enough to save the WCC except Felipe himself. (Well perhaps if we clone Fernando...) If he IS replaced, the team management has made a serious error.
2. There are preciously few real options for the other Ferrari seat even for 2013. I would count Rosberg, Perez and Massa(!) as the front runners with some really farfetched possibilities of Webber, Grosjean and Bianchi. Felipe can raise his stock here by starting to rack in points, other drivers need to prove their worth in their respective teams. Currently I see Perez as a real choice.
3. Felipe is struggling, Schumacher is struggling. No need to deny that or argue about who is struggling more.

Indeed. Anyone discussing replacing Massa mid season when we haven't got a WCC winning car isn't really concentrating on the main point at hand. Luckily, Ferrari are concentrating on maximising their potential with what they have until it is appropriate to worry about our under performing support driver.