Felipe Massa sucks, says Suzie

**sav_pap** · 26th June 2012, 09:21

IMO most people remember the driver champion of WDC instead of the team which won the WCC.
And I assume that many people irrelevant with F1 ignoring the existence of WCC.
By the way I thought that the money sharing in F1 is based on the WCC classification.
I have to ask katu. He should probably know...

**Greig** · 26th June 2012, 09:26

Yes money is given for WCC standings

**Alonsomaniac** · 26th June 2012, 09:33

It's kinda like a marriage: a true Ferrarifan supports both drivers, in good times and in bad times, till the end of contract do us part.
You may be a personal fan of one of them, but you support both.

**Tifosi** · 26th June 2012, 09:35

I think that Ferrari are more worried about tens of thousands of angry Italian Tifosi holding them culpable for no WDC than they are of loss of earnings from WCC results tbh

**F2002** · 26th June 2012, 10:54

Originally Posted by Tifosi

No but it seems to make certain people happy on these forums.

If the WCC was an issue to Ferrari in 2012 and they thought that they could do it with another driver in Massa's place, then they would have replaced him by now.

However, and as ever, there are some members of our forum who set their sights higher than Ferrari's. It's either because they have more knowledge and exacting standards than the team they say they support, or it is because they are unrealistic and do not know as much as Ferrari do about it's own business. Somehow I think it's the latter don't you?

Still, if one of Ferrari's most satisfying wins of many a season still wont shut them up, I doubt anything short of a public execution of Felipe Massa will

As I sort of restarted this thread, and therefore assume that I am one of the dissatisfied lot you are referring to, may I just say that, whatever comments are made about one driver or the other, I for one am very satisfied with Sunday's result, and personally consider it as one of the best races by a Ferrari driver I have ever watched in all of my 25 years as a Ferrari fan.

Now, I have contributed to this and other threads, and if you read all my posts, you will see that I have not expressed an opinion about the second drive. You will not find, in any of my posts, neither a suggestion that Felipe has to be replaced, nor the name of anybody who I believe should replace him.

So, this business about anyone trying to get above Ferrari, etc. is, with all due respect, a load of nonsense. How do you expect to run a Ferrari forum and not have the members expressing views by virtually putting themselves in Ferrari's shoes? More than half of the posts here are about people saying "I would have done that", or "I would have made that strategic call", etc. It's part of the enjoyment, just like fans of a football team speculate about the likely formation, etc. as though they were the manager.

To get back to the point, I personally don't care who drives the second car, insofar as we have a World Champion driving for us. In other posts, people have rubbished a comment I made that the car has been built for Alonso, which we all know is the case, and is a policy I fully agree with. The day Ferrari gives two equal cars to its two drivers and allows them to fight each other like idiots will probably be the day I stop supporting them.

I am just asking all those who speculated about Felipe's performance - that it was due to the car being bad, tyres, etc. - whether they still think that it is the case, on the basis of the hard facts. My opinion being that he knows that he is on his way out, and has completely lost his motivation (and who wouldn't, with a driver like Alonso on board, who is leading the championship and is now a full 100 points away?)

**F2002** · 26th June 2012, 10:58

Originally Posted by Greig

I know many fans believe the WCC comes first, I just don't see any evidence to suggest Ferrari think that way, to me it's more of a consolation prize if you don't win WDC, sure winning both is the biggest credit, but to only win WCC really is not all that important to me and I think Ferrari as well.

Greig, when I made a comment about discontinuing the WCC earlier, I meant it exactly that way.

It is clear that the WDC is top priority for everybody. All the big teams have one driver who is shining and the other who is struggling, and that cannot be a coincidence.

**aroutis** · 26th June 2012, 11:03

Originally Posted by Tifosi

I think that Ferrari are more worried about tens of thousands of angry Italian Tifosi holding them culpable for no WDC than they are of loss of earnings from WCC results tbh

You 'd be surprised how many tifosi cannot stand watching one of their cars always handicapped. And whereas they want Alonso (clearly) to be their champions, they also (demand,is the word?) their TEAM to be the TOP team in the standings.

**F2002** · 26th June 2012, 11:04

Originally Posted by aroutis

You 'd be surprised how many tifosi cannot stand watching one of their cars always handicapped. And whereas they want Alonso (clearly) to be their champions, they also (demand,is the word?) their TEAM to be the TOP team in the standings.

Have you just perfectly defined a Ferrari fan ?

**Greig** · 26th June 2012, 11:09

Originally Posted by aroutis

You 'd be surprised how many tifosi cannot stand watching one of their cars always handicapped. And whereas they want Alonso (clearly) to be their champions, they also (demand,is the word?) their TEAM to be the TOP team in the standings.

Any evidence of this? Did you see celebrations at Suzuka 99 (win WCC) that compared with Suzuka 2000 (win WDC) ?

WCC is a sideshow

**F2002** · 26th June 2012, 11:10

Originally Posted by Greig

Any evidence of this? Did you see celebrations at Suzuka 99 (win WCC) that compared with Suzuka 2000 (win WDC) ?

WCC is a sideshow

Ferrari is a passion for speed, not a passion for being slow.

Your evidence is Ferrari itself!

**Greig** · 26th June 2012, 11:14

Originally Posted by F2002

Ferrari is a passion for speed, not a passion for being slow.

Your evidence is Ferrari itself!

That is not really relevant to WCC v WDC though is it.

There was no street party at Maranello for winning 99 WCC, there was for winning 2000 WDC.

**Tifosi** · 26th June 2012, 11:20

Originally Posted by F2002

As I sort of restarted this thread, and therefore assume that I am one of the dissatisfied lot you are referring to, may I just say that, whatever comments are made about one driver or the other, I for one am very satisfied with Sunday's result, and personally consider it as one of the best races by a Ferrari driver I have ever watched in all of my 25 years as a Ferrari fan.

Now, I have contributed to this and other threads, and if you read all my posts, you will see that I have not expressed an opinion about the second drive. You will not find, in any of my posts, neither a suggestion that Felipe has to be replaced, nor the name of anybody who I believe should replace him.

So, this business about anyone trying to get above Ferrari, etc. is, with all due respect, a load of nonsense. How do you expect to run a Ferrari forum and not have the members expressing views by virtually putting themselves in Ferrari's shoes? More than half of the posts here are about people saying "I would have done that", or "I would have made that strategic call", etc. It's part of the enjoyment, just like fans of a football team speculate about the likely formation, etc. as though they were the manager.

To get back to the point, I personally don't care who drives the second car, insofar as we have a World Champion driving for us. In other posts, people have rubbished a comment I made that the car has been built for Alonso, which we all know is the case, and is a policy I fully agree with. The day Ferrari gives two equal cars to its two drivers and allows them to fight each other like idiots will probably be the day I stop supporting them.

I am just asking all those who speculated about Felipe's performance - that it was due to the car being bad, tyres, etc. - whether they still think that it is the case, on the basis of the hard facts. My opinion being that he knows that he is on his way out, and has completely lost his motivation (and who wouldn't, with a driver like Alonso on board, who is leading the championship and is now a full 100 points away?)

I don't really know if you are dissatisfied or not.

I did however wonder why you bumped the thread without giving us your own opinion but instead left an open invitation for a similar "debate" to the one already filling this thread. What exactly has changed? What happened on Sunday to show that Massa has "completely lost his motivation". What did he do or not do that showed a change in his performance/motivation compared to races earlier on in the season that has lead you to deduce this?

My response was obviously directed at your comment about discontinuing the WCC. Why should they do that?

**Tifosi** · 26th June 2012, 11:28

Originally Posted by F2002

Have you just perfectly defined a Ferrari fan ?

If he has, then Ferrari Fans are illogical and impractical. It's pointless demanding a WCC in 2012 when its not possible. Changing Massa at this point will not put Ferrari at the top of the WDC standings so demanding it is purely self serving and that's not really the definition of a Ferrari Fan in my book, just a demanding one

**Ferrulin** · 26th June 2012, 11:42

Originally Posted by Giallo 550

For what it's worth, I think Fernando is the most skilled and consistent driver on the grid right now, and we're extremely fortunate to have him. However, I think the OP of the comment you quoted had a very interesting point.

You state that Fernando would have dominated Felipe no matter when they met... I'm not sure if I can get on board with that. All athletes have high and low points in their careers. In '08, Felipe finished the season with 97 points (1 behind Hamilton) and Fernando finished with 61. That's a full 36 point difference. Of course, there's the discrepancy between Fernando's Renault and Felipe's Ferrari as well as pit teams, but no one can say for sure whether Fernando would have finished with more points than Felipe had they both driven for Ferrari at the same time. One thing's for sure, Felipe did outscore Kimi, who was the defending champion, with the same car.

Right now, there's the possibility that Felipe is driving a car that was spec'd for Fernando's style. Couple that with disdain for the Pirellis and you may very well have the reason for Felipe's lack of performance in comparison to Fernando's. Felipe has undergone several physicals and nothing was found to be wrong with him. I know he recently spent a lot of time in Maranello, and I assume the engineers have been tweaking the specifications of Felipe's Ferrari. Maybe that is why he looked so much better in Canada. Once again, not trying to take anything away from Fernando. He's an amazing talent and I'm ecstatic he's here at SF. Anyway... FORZA FELIPE AND FERNANDO!

**F2002** · 26th June 2012, 11:57

Originally Posted by Tifosi

I don't really know if you are dissatisfied or not.

I did however wonder why you bumped the thread without giving us your own opinion but instead left an open invitation for a similar "debate" to the one already filling this thread. What exactly has changed? What happened on Sunday to show that Massa has "completely lost his motivation". What did he do or not do that showed a change in his performance/motivation compared to races earlier on in the season that has lead you to deduce this?

My response was obviously directed at your comment about discontinuing the WCC. Why should they do that?

Very satisfied with F1 this season actually

and happy that Ferrari seem to have come to grips (pun unintended) with the F2012 finally.

You see, the sad thing about this thread is that, when you post something, you get beaten up for one thing or another.

I am thrilled by what Fernando is doing, but equally would like to see Felipe in a better shape, especially because we all know what he is really capable of.

Now if racing nowadays has become so close that a team cannot afford to give its two drivers equal opportunities without risking to lose the WDC (a bit like the prisoner's dilemma), then there is no point in having a WCC. After all, as Greig said, nobody really makes a big fuss when a team wins the WCC.

On the other hand, though, this is Ferrari, and as a Ferrari fan, I hate to see one of our cars at the bottom of the WDC standings. I'd love to think that good old Enzo shares this view, we all know how obsessed he was with speed.

**F2002** · 26th June 2012, 11:58

Originally Posted by Tifosi

If he has, then Ferrari Fans are illogical and impractical. It's pointless demanding a WCC in 2012 when its not possible. Changing Massa at this point will not put Ferrari at the top of the WDC standings so demanding it is purely self serving and that's not really the definition of a Ferrari Fan in my book, just a demanding one

So what would Enzo Ferrari have thought about Massa at this point ?

**Tifosi** · 26th June 2012, 12:17

Originally Posted by F2002

So what would Enzo Ferrari have thought about Massa at this point ?

How should I know?

The important issue here is in maximising potential, not making grand but futile gestures to satisfy the grand conceits of people who don't have all the facts.

**Kingdom Hearts** · 26th June 2012, 14:20

The rumor is that Ferrari will offer Felipe a contract to stay in 2013, with less salary but with incentives per point won, if Felipe says no, they try to get Webber for one year.

**Alonsofan2002** · 26th June 2012, 15:56

The WCC is lost because of massa.Sign Webber now.

**Suzie** · 26th June 2012, 17:00

Since Monaco he seems to have been as close to Fernando's times as he's ever been, both in practice sessions and qualifying (if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me and give a comprehensive run down of the timings

). He made a stupid error in Canada which lost him more potential points, but we can't slag the guy for not scoring points in Valencia, surely?! Kamui's 5 place grid drop for Silverstone should prove that.

Yes his start to the season was rotten, but surely anyone can see his performance has really picked up in the last 3 races now that he's happier with the F2012. I'm not going to say that bad luck is entirely the reason for his low points tally - but really, the guy needs a break, luck-wise.

**Hornet** · 26th June 2012, 18:32

WCC is lost because we were not able to unlock the potential of the F2012 soon enough for the first race. Or some may say the F2012 was problematic and needed fixing, doesn't really matter.

WCC rewards the most prepared team at the start of the season.

**Tifosi** · 26th June 2012, 18:35

Originally Posted by Alonsofan2002

The WCC is lost because of massa.Sign Webber now.

We can use him to replace you dude. He moans a lot too but at least its not always about the same thing

**Nova** · 26th June 2012, 18:37

Originally Posted by Suzie

Since Monaco he seems to have been as close to Fernando's times as he's ever been, both in practice sessions and qualifying (if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me and give a comprehensive run down of the timings

). He made a stupid error in Canada which lost him more potential points, but we can't slag the guy for not scoring points in Valencia, surely?! Kamui's 5 place grid drop for Silverstone should prove that.

Yes his start to the season was rotten, but surely anyone can see his performance has really picked up in the last 3 races now that he's happier with the F2012. I'm not going to say that bad luck is entirely the reason for his low points tally - but really, the guy needs a break, luck-wise.

He sure does need a break..I just watched Spain again..Felipe was right up there and driving well..very close to Alonso.
Mabey this thread should go the way of the dodo...like give it a break..be happy we did well in Spain, n move on.

**Tifoso** · 26th June 2012, 18:39

Originally Posted by Nova

He sure does need a break..I just watched Spain again..Felipe was right up there and driving well..very close to Alonso.
Mabey this thread should go the way of the dodo...like give it a break..be happy we did well in Spain, n move on.

Why would Bernie want it?

**Nova** · 26th June 2012, 20:39

...

**Alonsomaniac** · 26th June 2012, 21:52

Originally Posted by Tifosi

We can use him to replace you dude. He moans a lot too but at least its not always about the same thing

It will be quiet for at least a while......I must say , originally being an Alonsofan myself, I was pretty fed up with that anti Felipe talk. Almost made me feel uncomfortable as it was said by another Alonsofan.

**F2002** · 27th June 2012, 07:02

Originally Posted by Nova

He sure does need a break..I just watched Spain again..Felipe was right up there and driving well..very close to Alonso.
Mabey this thread should go the way of the dodo...like give it a break..be happy we did well in Spain, n move on.

Not sure why a post in this thread must necessarily be interpreted as "not being happy about Valencia".

I am both happy with Valencia and curious to discuss Felipe's performances. After all, he has only scored 11 points this season, so it's quite sensible for us to discuss it.

It's when this thread degenerates into a litany of calls for firing him, etc. that's when I lose interest.

**F2002** · 27th June 2012, 07:05

Originally Posted by Suzie

Since Monaco he seems to have been as close to Fernando's times as he's ever been, both in practice sessions and qualifying (if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me and give a comprehensive run down of the timings

). He made a stupid error in Canada which lost him more potential points, but we can't slag the guy for not scoring points in Valencia, surely?! Kamui's 5 place grid drop for Silverstone should prove that.

Yes his start to the season was rotten, but surely anyone can see his performance has really picked up in the last 3 races now that he's happier with the F2012. I'm not going to say that bad luck is entirely the reason for his low points tally - but really, the guy needs a break, luck-wise.

This is arguably the best post in this thread in my humble opinion.

Thanks Suzie - agreed 100%.