Felipe Massa sucks, says Suzie

[ferrari4life]

Massa still drives for Ferrari.. and until Ferrari decide otherwise.. I will back him to succeed. It makes no difference what we want.. Ferrari knows what they are doing.

[F2002]

That's a very black and white way of looking at it, amazingly when on the should MS retire again thread most defend him despite him also having 2 points, it's all very strange.

Are we comparing Felipe Massa with Michael Schumacher now ???

[Greig]

Are we comparing Felipe Massa with Michael Schumacher now ???

Not really was just pointing that MS also has 2 points if that is how things are decided

[sagi58]

...Unless you can give me something that suggests Massa was under threat from the arrival of Alonso?

I'll defer to FFFerrari's comment:

...What this means for Felipe? During 2007-09, he was allowed to race freely, even during the latter half of 2008 he got the #1 treatment after the team started smoking Kimi out cause the deal with Fernando and Santander had been done...

And, will finish up with your own:

Alonso was coming 2011 to replace Kimi anyway, Ferrari just sped that process up...

The decision was obviously made long before we heard about it and after Massa's accident! As far as I'm concerned, Ferrari wasn't about to turn their back on him because Ferrari/Italians are all about family and loyalty!

You call it clutching at straws? I call it having a different perspective! Maybe it's a cultural thing!

[Greig]

The deal with Alonso was probably done well before we got it confirmed same with the Kimi deal which was done 18 months before he arrived, I doubt the deal with Alonso was done after Hungary 09, but well before. Alonso was signed to replace Kimi in 2011, we sped that up by paying Kimi off and getting Alonso quicker, Kimi was replaced because his performances had dropped very badly and was being beaten by Felipe, when Ferrari had expected Kimi to be beating Felipe and leading the team, he never gave us that. So if you want to discuss possible mistakes then the biggest one was signing Kimi when we should have got Alonso to begin with

The accident had nothing to do with Ferrari sticking by Massa, the rumours of Kimi being replaced where already in full swing by that point and Felipe was once again well ahead of Kimi in the standings, you make it sound like without the accident then Felipe would have been replaced, as if to suggest he only got retained on a sympathy vote (not for the first time have you suggested this) which could not be further from the truth if you tried.

There was never any suggestion that Alonso was coming early to replace Massa, it was always to replace Kimi. It is clutching at straws as you can't give me anything to suggest Massa was under threat from Alonso's arrival, it's fine to have a different perspective but surely you need to have some sort of evidence to base it on other than just making it up?

[Kiwi Nick]

The dilemma with regard to Flipper is that Alonso requires a non-threatening number 2 as a team mate, while the Scuderia needs two strong drivers scoring points. So long as this scenario is allowed to prevail, Ferrari will not win the WCC except with a truly superior car. So the question is, what to do about a #2 who doesn't score points but does not threaten the tea leader?

[Hornet]

The dilemma with regard to Flipper is that Alonso requires a non-threatening number 2 as a team mate, while the Scuderia needs two strong drivers scoring points. So long as this scenario is allowed to prevail, Ferrari will not win the WCC except with a truly superior car. So the question is, what to do about a #2 who doesn't score points but does not threaten the tea leader?

How do you define non-threatening?

[REDARMYSOJA]

The deal with Alonso was probably done well before we got it confirmed same with the Kimi deal which was done 18 months before he arrived, I doubt the deal with Alonso was done after Hungary 09, but well before. Alonso was signed to replace Kimi in 2011, we sped that up by paying Kimi off and getting Alonso quicker, Kimi was replaced because his performances had dropped very badly and was being beaten by Felipe, when Ferrari had expected Kimi to be beating Felipe and leading the team, he never gave us that. So if you want to discuss possible mistakes then the biggest one was signing Kimi when we should have got Alonso to begin with

The accident had nothing to do with Ferrari sticking by Massa, the rumours of Kimi being replaced where already in full swing by that point and Felipe was once again well ahead of Kimi in the standings, you make it sound like without the accident then Felipe would have been replaced, as if to suggest he only got retained on a sympathy vote (not for the first time have you suggested this) which could not be further from the truth if you tried.

There was never any suggestion that Alonso was coming early to replace Massa, it was always to replace Kimi. It is clutching at straws as you can't give me anything to suggest Massa was under threat from Alonso's arrival, it's fine to have a different perspective but surely you need to have some sort of evidence to base it on other than just making it up?

The score card between Massa and Kimi during their time at Ferrari

Since 2007

Wins

Massa - 9

Kimi - 8
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Podium

Massa - 15

Kimi - 14
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Points Scored

Massa - 213

Kimi - 195
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Point finishes

Massa - 32

Kimi - 30
~~~~~~~~~~~~
WDC's

Kimi - Lucked into 1

Massa - Lucked out of 1
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Salary per year

Kimi - 51 million

Massa - 11 million


When you are getting paid that much and getting beaten by your team mate, it's not much of a choice who to keep.

[Kingdom Hearts]

The dilemma with regard to Flipper is that Alonso requires a non-threatening number 2 as a team mate,

BS fabricated by the english media and chewed by many people. Even if that was true when he was at Renault and McLaren, Alonso is not that Alonso anymore. And he finished with the same points as Hamilton ( top 3 in the current grid, for some top 1 or 2) and with the team screwing him, so Alonso is hardly scared under equal treatment.

[Greig]

I don't think any driver on the grid would worry Alonso if they came to Ferrari, in fact he would probably show the likes of Vettel and Lewis that they really are not all that good

[Tobes]

That's a very black and white way of looking at it, amazingly when on the should MS retire again thread most defend him despite him also having 2 points, it's all very strange.

Yeah but wanting Michael to stay on and maybe nick a podium is more due to a bit of sentimentallity nobody cares about Merc, but we all want Ferrari to be winning championships so Michael on two points is no cause for concern, but Felipe on the other hand is a different story...
I'd be hugely surprised to see him a Ferrari next season, but really don't think it would be a good idea to change mid-season, he's got till the end of the year, and rightly so...

[Tifoso]

Also, Michael is obviously on the downside of the age/performance curve; Massa should still be on the upside....

[Greig]

Yeah but wanting Michael to stay on and maybe nick a podium is more due to a bit of sentimentallity nobody cares about Merc, but we all want Ferrari to be winning championships so Michael on two points is no cause for concern, but Felipe on the other hand is a different story...
I'd be hugely surprised to see him a Ferrari next season, but really don't think it would be a good idea to change mid-season, he's got till the end of the year, and rightly so...

What I was trying to mean is that MS has hardly driven poorly this season, yet has 2 points same as Felipe, so for me the points scored is not really the whole picture of how things have gone, I would say Felipe has has 2 pretty poor races to open the season, then 2 very decent races in China and Bahrain before we got to Spain, he missed out on Q3 by 4 tenths which to me again is not a major shock against Alonso and from 17th you are always going to be in a bit of trouble especially if as MS says you can't really push on these tyres and as such pace around you is more or less the same.

[wisepie]

Because the team knows better than any of us here.

We're only guessing, hoping and wishing. The team on the other hand, have all the data and they know whats wrong.

Had the data indicate that Massa could have done better with a 2 stopper for example, they would have done it. But if they don't, then there is a reason to it, it could be tire wear and so on. Remember, the team knows the tire wear rate from Friday testing. They know when 2 stopping is possible, when its not useful.

Guess that's true to a point, but I can't help feeling they need to do something less predictable with Felipe to get him out of the traffic once the race settles down, so that at least he's in a better position to try and get into the points. It's not all his fault that he only has 2pts to Fernando's 59pts, but I don't think the strategies have helped him at all.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Not really was just pointing that MS also has 2 points if that is how things are decided

In all fairness which you obviously aren't concerned with, it should be noted:

SCHU- Australia Retired Gearbox

SCHU- Malaysia Hit bry GRO

SCHU- China wheel came off due to pit stop error

Felipe on the other hand hasn't had any of these problems that were out of his control. Yes until Spain Michael was probably driving a better car aside from Australia but it's not fair to compare apples & oranges.

I support Felipe, I hope he does well. The question is how much longer can Ferrari deal with his poor results if he doesn't improve.

[wisepie]

What I was trying to mean is that MS has hardly driven poorly this season, yet has 2 points same as Felipe, so for me the points scored is not really the whole picture of how things have gone, I would say Felipe has has 2 pretty poor races to open the season, then 2 very decent races in China and Bahrain before we got to Spain, he missed out on Q3 by 4 tenths which to me again is not a major shock against Alonso and from 17th you are always going to be in a bit of trouble especially if as MS says you can't really push on these tyres and as such pace around you is more or less the same.

My sentiments exactly, once you're stuck in the middle in traffic, most chance of points evaporates for the reasons you mention. Not entirely Felipe's fault that his points tally is poor, Rob Smedley must be getting as frustrated as Felipe with the need to react rather than just sit there in the mid-field, but guess Stefano overrules them?

[Greig]

In all fairness which you obviously aren't concerned with, it should be noted:

Why am I not concerned with fairness? As I said I used the points total to show why it is not the true picture, 2 points for MS driving well, 2 points for Massa not driving so well. You need to look deeper than points on the board to be fair. Saying Massa sucks just because he has 2 points is not really a fair point to make IMO.

I think Ferrari need to improve the car a lot before much will change in the no2 driver seat, Alonso is just brilliant.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Why am I not concerned with fairness? As I said I used the points total to show why it is not the true picture, 2 points for MS driving well, 2 points for Massa not driving so well. You need to look deeper than points on the board to be fair. Saying Massa sucks just because he has 2 points is not really a fair point to make IMO.

I think Ferrari need to improve the car a lot before much will change in the no2 driver seat, Alonso is just brilliant.

Comparing the points between Felipe & Michael doesn't make sense. Michael hasn't had the same opportunity to finish all the races like Felipe has. In the fact Michael hasn't completed as many GP's and they still have the same points is worse for Felipe. Felipe has had a few problems, but for the most part has had the chance to finish better than he has. I don't know what the problem is. Ii really wish Felipe & the team can get it sorted. I'd love nothing more for instance for Felipe & Fernando to get a 1 2 at Silverstone. I say Silverstone because it will be the next large update in which we can really measure our car against the rest of the field. No Monaco updates, Canada has it's own criteria(very important but sort of track specific), Valencia is a street course and the asphalt is weird. So I don't think we'll get a true indication of how much we've improved the car until the British GP.

It's obvious the team need to improve the car. It's obvious Felipe needs to seriously up his driving. I don't believe Fernando is an accurate representation of where the car is at, the same way I don't think Felipe is. I think it's somewhere in the middle. At the same time, Felipe shouldn't have to have a superior car to finish in the points. He can do better. As a true Tifosi, I think he will do better. I agree that you can't just look at his points total and say he sucks but I also don't think you can compare Felipe & Michaels either. Everyone knows what Felipe must do.

So here's to the team improving the car. Fernando continuing his fantastic driving. And Felipe being the Felipe we all know he's capable of. Forza Ferrari!!

[Greig]

For the 3rd and last time, I am not comparing them, all I am saying the points scored is not the true picture for a driver.

Again - MS has 2 points, Massa has 2 points

1 of them has driven a lot better than the other, but if you only base it on points scored then both seem to have been poor, that is all I was saying.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

For the 3rd and last time, I am not comparing them, all I am saying the points scored is not the true picture for a driver.

Again - MS has 2 points, Massa has 2 points

1 of them has driven a lot better than the other, but if you only base it on points scored then both seem to have been poor, that is all I was saying.

Do you not see that when you compare their points total you are indeed comparing them? There's no other explanation. You can't compare or look at the fact that both drivers have two points and leave out the context that one hasn't been able to finish three races. Quite an important fact no? Felipe has had more chances to have a better total than Michael who hasn't completed 50% of the races Felipe has yet they have the same points total. Quit saying you're not comparing them when you most certainly are.

Yes points scored isn't always an accurate picture of a driver. However for Felipe is it quite representative of his season. For Michael, not so much.

[Greig]

I give up, I can't say it a 4th time. I am comparing 2 points on a scoreboard and how it can be deceiving. I don't know why you can't understand that.

Steve has 2 points
Adam has 2 points

Steve crashed every race on the first lap but 1 and finished 9th, Adam DNF from winning in 4 races on the last lap and finished 9th due to a car problem.

Some forum member comes along and says, Adam sucks he only has 2 points. It's just a bit easier on a F1 forum to use driver names but hopefully you get my point now.

[Suzie]

Adam should replace Massa.

[Greig]

[Tobes]

I give up, I can't say it a 4th time. I am comparing 2 points on a scoreboard and how it can be deceiving. I don't know why you can't understand that.

Steve has 2 points
Adam has 2 points

Steve crashed every race on the first lap but 1 and finished 9th, Adam DNF from winning in 4 races on the last lap and finished 9th due to a car problem.

Some forum member comes along and says, Adam sucks he only has 2 points. It's just a bit easier on a F1 forum to use driver names but hopefully you get my point now.

Who are Steve and Adam, and what are you trying to say exactly...?

t

[Tifoso]

Why am I not concerned with fairness? As I said I used the points total to show why it is not the true picture, 2 points for MS driving well, 2 points for Massa not driving so well. You need to look deeper than points on the board to be fair. Saying Massa sucks just because he has 2 points is not really a fair point to make IMO.

I think Ferrari need to improve the car a lot before much will change in the no2 driver seat, Alonso is
just brilliant.

Agreed.

[Greig]

Who are Steve and Adam, and what are you trying to say exactly...?

t

I like ducks is what I am trying to say

[REDARMYSOJA]

I knew this thread would make us crazy.

[Tobes]

I knew this thread would make us crazy.

Yup, I quite like it, have a mental image of Greig with steam coming out his ears, cheers up an otherwise pretty mundane afternoon, that and it makes me laugh when he gets exasperated...

[Greig]

Yup, I quite like it, have a mental image of Greig with steam coming out his ears, cheers up an otherwise pretty mundane afternoon, that and it makes me laugh when he gets exasperated...

[Mrs Alonso]

I dont know why some people have such a problem with admitting Felipe is not good enough. It is pretty obvious as far as i can see.

I like him and i'd love him to turn it round and be good again but he's had enough chances now.