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Thread: Ferrari F138 - Development and News

  1. #2041
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post
    Newey once said in an interview that they run shorter gears because their simulations tell them that is produces the fastest lap time. If they want to, they can run longer gears (e.g. as they did with Webber this weekend). But you are correct, they produce more downforce through the diffuser so they can afford to run a skinnier wing which means less drag. Their car is not draggy, it just lacks top end speed because they choose to run a shorter 7th gear.

    I'm surprised that Tombazis has gone with the high sidepods. One of the reasons the F2002 was so dominant was because of the low sidepods, and Tombazis was involved in that car.

    Part of the reason we have such high sidepods and larger air intakes is because of our vertical radiators. I don't know why we went for this approach because most teams switched from vertical radiators to the slanted radiators some years ago.
    Oh, I saw an interview with him at the launch of the F2012 where he said the sidepods are so large to produce a big downwash effect towards the diffuser and to provide a big undercut (tight waist). He got the idea right, but whilst Newey went for the ramp with coanda effect, internal ducting, and small sidepods, Tombazis went for the incredibly large sidepods that don't even touch the floor and dump the air about 20xm above it. Maybe, in his mind, air was honey and the car travels at pitlane speed all the time.

    Maybe it's the pressure at Maranello, but he lacks creativity.

  2. #2042
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    And Sauber has proven that you can have smaller sidepods.
    Go Ferrari, beat them all!

  3. #2043
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    Oh, I saw an interview with him at the launch of the F2012 where he said the sidepods are so large to produce a big downwash effect towards the diffuser and to provide a big undercut (tight waist). He got the idea right, but whilst Newey went for the ramp with coanda effect, internal ducting, and small sidepods, Tombazis went for the incredibly large sidepods that don't even touch the floor and dump the air about 20xm above it. Maybe, in his mind, air was honey and the car travels at pitlane speed all the time.

    Maybe it's the pressure at Maranello, but he lacks creativity.
    Ferrari should fire Tombazis immediately and hire you instead since you have more expertise in F1 car designing then him.

  4. #2044
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    Maybe not Bubbles...
    Go Ferrari, beat them all!

  5. #2045
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    Ferrari should fire Tombazis immediately and hire you instead since you have more expertise in F1 car designing then him.
    I just understand fluid dynamics, unlike some people. Are you flipping burgers at McDonald's all day?

  6. #2046
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post

    Look how high and wide our sidepods are in comparison to Red Bull.
    The reason for our "High and wide Sidepods" is surface cooling which is one of the most fundamental aspect of our car. And whole purpose of sidepods is cooling and our bulky sidepods are serving their purpose properly.
    Last edited by tifosi1993; 7th October 2013 at 16:53. Reason: *typo*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    I just understand fluid dynamics, unlike some people. Are you flipping burgers at McDonald's all day?
    No need to be insulting. In your assessment of the car's aero, you forgot about the sidepod flow. Scarbs covered this area in his article last year when discussing Red Bull's ramp design, how the exhaust and sidepod flow crosses each other and you can only optimize one and not both. Red Bull sacrificed the sidepod flow (it was evident from the aero paint showing air bleeding out of the tunnel) to optimize the exhaust flow.

    Therefore while the exhaust flow may not be as good on Ferrari, Ferrari's design actually result in more efficient sidepod flow, which means more air flowing through the rear of the car, not lesser.

  8. #2048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    I just understand fluid dynamics, unlike some people. Are you flipping burgers at McDonald's all day?
    So you must know how to improve the lift coefficient, L/D ratio, and total points of downforce of F138 since you understand fluid dynamics better than Tombazis.

    So what are you waiting for? Go on, replace him and save Scuderia.

  9. #2049
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    I just understand fluid dynamics, unlike some people. Are you flipping burgers at McDonald's all day?
    No need for that is there?
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    I just understand fluid dynamics, unlike some people. Are you flipping burgers at McDonald's all day?
    Alot of people do&alot of people dont, but to be insulting to someone who may not know as much isnt really right or shows respect.
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  11. #2051
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    No need to be insulting. In your assessment of the car's aero, you forgot about the sidepod flow. Scarbs covered this area in his article last year when discussing Red Bull's ramp design, how the exhaust and sidepod flow crosses each other and you can only optimize one and not both. Red Bull sacrificed the sidepod flow (it was evident from the aero paint showing air bleeding out of the tunnel) to optimize the exhaust flow.

    Therefore while the exhaust flow may not be as good on Ferrari, Ferrari's design actually result in more efficient sidepod flow, which means more air flowing through the rear of the car, not lesser.
    And Merc use same idea as us.
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  12. #2052
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
    And Merc use same idea as us.
    Their car seems to have the raw speed too as we've often seen in qualifying. Which is why I don't believe that article that said Red Bull's design is the only right design and Ferrari/Merc all got it wrong.

  13. #2053
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Berger View Post


    Look how high and wide our sidepods are in comparison to Red Bull.
    Thanks alot for this Puicture bro. respect for you..
    On another not Ferrari seems to be the only team not to running with Vortex Generators on top of sidepods.Lotus, Redbull , Mclaren ( and 2012 aswell when they had a very quick car) and Especially Mercedes since they are running the same concept as us on the exhausts it seems appropriate to me that it might be beneficial to have vortex generators on top of sidepods.
    One more thing Redbull have been running the camera's are at the top of the nose just like Horns of a Bull and they have been that way since 2009 and changed a few times but in 2011 to 2013 they have been at the start of the nose and outward facing on high downforce tracks..
    just look at how complex their frontwing looks compared to ours, and the high angle of attack they are running and many more downforce producing elements on the wing than us
    and last one I want to ask others is what is that big tunnel exiting below their rear wing? what is its purpose is it for cooling?.its been there since 2010. why havent we followed that or copied it??

  14. #2054
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muhammad Ansib View Post
    Thanks alot for this Puicture bro. respect for you..
    On another not Ferrari seems to be the only team not to running with Vortex Generators on top of sidepods.Lotus, Redbull , Mclaren ( and 2012 aswell when they had a very quick car) and Especially Mercedes since they are running the same concept as us on the exhausts it seems appropriate to me that it might be beneficial to have vortex generators on top of sidepods.
    One more thing Redbull have been running the camera's are at the top of the nose just like Horns of a Bull and they have been that way since 2009 and changed a few times but in 2011 to 2013 they have been at the start of the nose and outward facing on high downforce tracks..
    just look at how complex their frontwing looks compared to ours, and the high angle of attack they are running and many more downforce producing elements on the wing than us
    and last one I want to ask others is what is that big tunnel exiting below their rear wing? what is its purpose is it for cooling?.its been there since 2010. why havent we followed that or copied it??
    Big tunnel at the rear is their hot air exit.

    Our hot air exits at the back of the sidepods, near the exhausts. I don't know why we do that since it is a very aerodynamically sensitive area.

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    Got some article from here : http://somersf1.blogspot.com/2013/09/red-bull.html

    Questioning Red Bull's pace in Singapore?

    Once again I feel compelled to write about a matter that's circulating around several sites about Red Bull and moreover the use of Traction Control. The sudden re-ignition of interest in this topic is mainly because of the percieved margin of pace that Red Bull had over the rest of the field at Singapore. Following on from that, Minardi also threw their ring in the hat not saying it but insinuating that something wasn't quite right and the pace must be indicative of the team doing something that's prohibited.

    A traffic spike to the piece I wrote back after the Montreal GP reminded me of the a similar furore we had when fans pointed at the staggered lines that Webber's car produced as he exited the chicane at the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve.

    I think there are several things we must consider rather than just taking a blinkered look at the difference in pace from Sebastian to the rest of the field

    - Singapore is a street circuit and thus high downforce, we know that Red Bull excel when they visit this type of circuit
    - Vettel was only 0.091 quicker than Rosberg in qualifying, of course we have to factor in a small percentage of track evolution whilst Vettel bit his finger nails in the garage and not going for another run.
    - By not doing two runs in Q3 Vettel saved a set of fresh Option tyres, this for me is the biggest reason we see the disparity in times at the end of the GP when the track was at it's best and he had a fresh set of tyres.
    - Clear air running is a massive factor in any drivers victory, this is heightened at street circuits as not only is it more difficult to pass, which will inevitably lead to tyre graining and/or increased degredation. You also have the issue of heat/inefficient air, running in the wake of another car means that not only does the car ahead disturb the aerodynamics of the trailing car but it effects performance. The engine must breath in order to create power and should you be following another car not only is the engine and it's components receiving a reduced quantity of airflow it's also agitated and pre-heated.
    - Post Safety Car Rosberg was struggling with Front Wing issues (Tyre marbles stuck in between the flaps) this causes understeer and although some of it can be dialed out by changing diff settings this of course compromises corner entry, apex speed and corner exit.
    - In terms of upgrades for Singapore the team didn't have anything monumental that would suggest such a huge differential in pace but the team ran their Rear Wing DDRS for the first time at Marina Bay in 2012 that went un noticed until the following races.

    Discounting the small raw pace difference to Rosberg in Qualifying and the issues faced by the drivers of following others around a street circuit what makes the Red Bull intrinsically faster than the rest?

    Firstly I think we would do well to look at some of my past articles (and links to others) in which I and others have talked about Red Bull's dominance:

    Cylinder Deactivation: Not a phenomenon that's unique to Red Bull or indeed Renault but it is something that is believed to be of greater potential to those using Renault power. Put simply it is the reduction in use of cylinders, this can be used to best effect in the braking and turning in phase as it will allow the engine to act as an air pump as the car reduces speed. It will of course also allow for the engine to recover quicker as the driver picks up the throttle again on corner exit. By allowing the engine to deactivate cylinders during the off throttle moments it means the exhaust is still feeding energy to the car and therefore the Floor and Diffuser.

    Change of Pirelli's tyre construction back to 2012 specification: The change of tyre construction from Silverstone saw a return to the specification used by the Italian tyre manufacturer in 2012. The obvious area this has effected has been the midfield with both McLaren and Sauber able to make ground on Force India. The change came at a pivotal time in the season as decisions were being made up and down the paddock as to whether the teams start to shift focus to their 2014 challengers. These decisions were not exclusive to 2014 though with 11 races left the development programme for the rest of the season must also be set out. From Round 13 onwards we are in the 'fly away' zone and so the pre planning of upgrade/track specific upgrades are mapped out by the teams well in advance. (A team can only chase so many avenues of development otherswise they lose focus)
    Red Bull were one of the teams chasing the FIA for the changes to the Pirelli tyres and for obvious reasons, I don't feel they wholeheartedly dropped the development aspect of the 2012 tyre model and with them possessing one of the quickest cars at the tail end of 2012 they clearly understood how to best extract performance from it. The RB8 and RB9 are incredibly similar vehicles whereas Ferrari, Lotus and moreover McLaren made changes in order to make large leaps in performance.

    German GP 2012 Torque Map Clarification: The torque map used by Red Bull at the German GP was so drastically different to those used in the preceding GP's that it came to the attention of the FIA's race stewards. From then the teams had to decide on a map from the first 5 races they wanted to use as a baseline, +/- 2% of this map would be acceptable by the FIA for changes at each GP. At the start of the 2013 season Renault (and perhaps others) believed there would be a reset on the baseline map helping teams to make the necessary changes they required to increase performance for their car. The rule clarification made after Germany has in my opinion had an impact on the development of the 2012/13 cars. Although the the torque map is totally different to the engine map they are intrinsically linked, migrating too far from the bodywork a team ran in the opening 5 rounds of 2012 has to be done with compromise.

    Exhausts and moreover the Red Bull Cross Under Tunnel: With all teams now utilising a Coanda styled exhaust, be it a ramped design or Semi-Coanda design it's clear that during this regulation set gaining performance from the Diffuser is pivotal in increasing the downforce yield. As I mention above it is a rob Peter to pay Paul scenario where you must give up something in one area in order to make further gains in others. If we take Red Bull's 3 closest protagonists Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus all three weren't using Coanda style exhaust systems in the first races of 2012 with Ferrari introducing their Semi-Coanda arrangement at Round 5 in Barcelona. Even Red Bull had tried various exhaust configurations throughout the early stages of the season as all the teams grappled with over heating the inner shoulders of the rear tyres.
    Even though Red Bull struggled to correlate what was being seen in the Wind Tunnel/CFD with on track results with the cross-under tunnel their main stay however was the adoption of the downwash ramp. Now used by Lotus and Sauber too the cross-under acts much like the Semi-Coanda's counterpart but uses the surface of the bodywork to guide the exhaust plume. The tunnel allows for the airflow to migrate inbound and exit the car more centrally allowing for a cleaner distribution of the exhaust gases into the gap between the floor and the tyres edge. Furthermore it also allows for a much tidier flow into the svelt Coke Bottle region.
    Moving back briefly to 2012 and we know that both Lotus and Mercedes ran most of their early campaign with the exhausts in more neutral positions maximising engine performance rather then aero performance. When they made the switch later in the season to Semi-Coanda exhausts they did so with a compromise, as their torque maps (and therefore their correlation to their engine maps) were most likely less efficient than that of Red Bull.
    Ferrari's 2012 exhaust carried the nickname the 'Acer Duct' due to the sponsorship displayed in that region, although it utilised a layout akin to the Semi-Coanda configuration they now use it also provided the Sidepod's cooling outlet aft of the exhaust position.

    Taking both the torque map and exhaust solutions being used in combination, I'd suggest that although the FIA and teams believed they were curtailing an advantage that Red Bull were creating (in Germany 2012) what they actually did was cut off their nose to spite their face.

    Helmholtz / Resonator Chambers: Not an item exclusively used by Red Bull, Helmholtz chambers are used in Formula One in order to change the way in which the exhaust produces power and also aid in smoothing the exhaust plume transition.

    Ride Height / Rake: We have seen for years now that Red Bull run with a more extreme rake than most of it's competitors. As explained in the links ride height and rake form an important role in the increase of downforce extracted from the Diffuser. Get it wrong and the Diffuser will lose performance and is predominantly why teams have progressively chased the use of interlinked suspensions over the last few seasons. The floor on the RB9 has seen significant revisions from it's predecessor with tyre squirt slots on the outer periphery and the use of 2 vertical floor strakes just off from the centre-line of the exhaust. These are being used in combination with the plume itself to strengthen the Vortex that curls up and under the outer portion of the Diffuser. Feeding airflow into the gap between the Diffusers edge and the tyres sidewall is what we call 'sealing the diffuser' this helps create a low pressure region at the diffusers edge and increases the downforce yield.

    You cannot take what I have mentioned here in isolation and must look at the whole package of the RB9, all of the components create the perfect storm and even more so when allied to Sebastian Vettel's driving style. Mark Webber prefers a car that moves around allowing him to feel his way in and around corners, Vettel however is able to apply a counter-intuitive style that allows him to commit to the corner when most would back out. This is done by feeding the Diffuser with exhaust gases which in turn creates the downforce required to pull the car through the corner.

    Lastly IF (and thats a BIG IF) we were to seriously consider that Red Bull were using a form of Traction Contorl they would be in clear breach of article 9.3

    9.3 Traction control :

    No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle torque demand by the driver.

    Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted.
    In my opinion the only possible form of TC that could viably be utilized would be via KERS.
    The problem for most people is that when we talk about KERS they only think about the discharge of power (ie the roughly 80bhp for a maximum of 6.67 seconds) but that energy must first be captured. (That's because to the average viewer they see the charge refilled in the on screen graphic at the end of each lap and don't think about where it came from).
    In its first year (09) many teams/drivers struggled initially as recovering the energy altered the balance of the car.
    Harvesting to use its correct terminology is done in the same way as the release of energy via the unit attached to the crankshaft. Nothing in the regulations stipulates that this energy has to be recovered under braking but it is the most obvious time you would do so. This is because harvesting intrinsically slows the engine speed and aids in the slowing of the car. I'd suggest it is plausible you could modulate harvesting throughout the acceleration phase in a way that could simulate traction control but I'm quite sure all of the teams already do this to some extent.

    In Summary

    Let's not get carried away with what appeared to be dominating pace around Marina Bay. The circuit likely provided the opportunity for a perfect storm, whereby Vettel's driving style accentuated the RB9's high downforce configuration and some if not all of the traits I've mentioned above.

    Mai Dare Sulla Speranza, Forza Ferrari!!

  16. #2056
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    Many people blame RedBull as cheaters only because they have been so superior.

    Cheating would be something you just suggested. And if there are no other way to beat them, let them win, best deserves to win.
    How's it cheating, if we did get something from this tactic it is going to be implemented in our cars under our own tactics. People copy ideas from others all the time, like how almost the entire grid designed an exhaust blown diffuser for their own cars after Red Bull made this innovation back in 2010.

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    Rumours going round that pat fry might be on his way to mclaren? Anybody got any info?

  18. #2058
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    Quote Originally Posted by giodap View Post
    Rumours going round that pat fry might be on his way to mclaren? Anybody got any info?
    To be honest with you since he has been at Ferrari he has not set the world on fire.

  19. #2059
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirafiori View Post
    To be honest with you since he has been at Ferrari he has not set the world on fire.
    It was a strange appointment considering he was not technical director at Mclaren and had actually spent most of his F1 car as a race engineer. Ferrari were used to hiring winners like Brawn/Barnard or promoting internally (e.g. Costa).

  20. #2060
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    Quote Originally Posted by giodap View Post
    Rumours going round that pat fry might be on his way to mclaren? Anybody got any info?


    Let's think a moment...Pat Fry's title is the newly created Director of Engineering, previously he was Chassis Technical Director. As of Sept. 1 James Allison's title was Chassis Technical Director. Both Fry and Allison report to Domenicali. Perhaps Ferrari have found that they don't need a Director of Engineering.

    At McLaren, from 2006 to 2010 when Fry was largely responsible for the design of the MP4s (20-25), they finished 2nd and 3rd in the WCC, and were twice named "Car of the Year" by Autosport. Since Fry left, the cars have been less and less competitive. Would McLaren like to have Fry back? Absolutely!

  21. #2061
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Nick View Post

    At McLaren, from 2006 to 2010 when Fry was largely responsible for the design of the MP4s (20-25), they finished 2nd and 3rd in the WCC, and were twice named "Car of the Year" by Autosport. Since Fry left, the cars have been less and less competitive. Would McLaren like to have Fry back? Absolutely!
    The 2011 McLaren was by far the 2nd best car on the grid (the RB7 was a beast) and in 2012 it was matching the best car on the grid for 13 of the 20 races (not competitive enough to fight for the win in Bahrain, Valencia, Silverstone, Monaco, Japan, Korea and India but still a podium-worthy car in more than half of those races). So I wouldn't say they have struggled enormously without him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonso14 View Post
    The 2011 McLaren was by far the 2nd best car on the grid (the RB7 was a beast) and in 2012 it was matching the best car on the grid for 13 of the 20 races (not competitive enough to fight for the win in Bahrain, Valencia, Silverstone, Monaco, Japan, Korea and India but still a podium-worthy car in more than half of those races). So I wouldn't say they have struggled enormously without him.
    2011 - 2nd, 2012 - 3rd, 2013 - 5th. Less competitive (2nd to 3rd) and less competitive (3rd to 5th).

  23. #2063
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    2012 - they might have finished 3rd but that's not the true reflection of their performance. They had a lot of bad calls on the wall and mechanical failures (which were not result of poor design).
    They were more competitive in 2012 compared 2011 where the RBR was simply untouchable. You cannot simply use final results as an argument of performance. If in 2013 Alonso was leading every of 19 races by 30s+ but in every single one he was being taken out by a backmarker does this mean that he's 20th best driver on the grid and the Ferrari is 5/6/7th best car?

  24. #2064
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    Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no need for this thread to exist....
    Rather to open new one PROJECT F2014?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stefa View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no need for this thread to exist....
    Rather to open new one PROJECT F2014?
    Well if there are smaller updates coming still, I guess it's more appropriate to post them here than in a 2014 thread. Besides, we wont hear anything about the 2014 car anytime soon. Perhaps we can start a 2014 thread after the season ends next month. Won't be long

  26. #2066
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    Ferrari F138 - Development and News

    Suzuka International Racing Course, Japan (10/10/2013)







    Edit:


    Last edited by tifosi1993; 10th October 2013 at 19:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    Suzuka International Racing Course, Japan (10/10/2013)

    Wind tunnel said : "Lemon Yellow bear" works ...
    now here it is ...

    should it say: instead of prancing horse we have a wintersleep bear?
    "If I was driving for Red Bull [from 2008] probably I would have more championships, but because they were dominating between 2010 and 2014 probably I would never have driven for Ferrari. I am very happy and very proud to drive for Ferrari, all my time there.

  28. #2068
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senna4Ever View Post
    Wind tunnel said : "Lemon Yellow bear" works ...
    now here it is ...

    should it say: instead of prancing horse we have a wintersleep bear?

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    Ferrari F138 - Development and News

    Suzuka International Racing Course, Japan (11/10/2013)





    Last edited by tifosi1993; 11th October 2013 at 05:52.

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