Pirelli tyre situation - All discussion here

[Aberracus]

Sorry i'm an newby here, but have been following F1 and Ferrari since the 80's

Anyway i wan to try to get The Scuderia Attention to support them in a defense of the actual tire system,

What was Paul Hembery thinking when he "admitted after the race in Spain that four pit stops, the number Alonso made on his way to victory, was too many."

Spain 2012 Four Pit Stops

Spain 2012
Pole: Lewis 1:21.797
Race: Pastor 1:39:09.145

Spain 2013
Pole: Nico 1:20.718
Race: Alonso 1:39:16.596


Red Bull is Whinning but Red Bull is just killing his tires with THEIR setup. do not change the tyres, let Red Bull change their setup.

Mercedes and McLaren are doing 3 stop strategies when they can’t sustain and they are moaning afterward.


Please Scuderia Ferrari don't let Pirelli change the Tyres.

[Kingdom Hearts]

It's going to happen, we don't have enough political power to stop it, let's hope it's not a complete manipulation, a small change is OK, to let RB design the tyre it's not OK, I hope Pirelli has that clear.

[scuderiafan]

It isn't Pirelli's fault. They were told to keep high degradations by the FIA. Teams can't make a decent car, then moan.

RBR weren't moaning last year or 2011 in the Pirelli era, so it is quite clear what their motivations are.

Pirelli should just make a Super hard tyre to mirror the supersofts at tracks like Barcelona which will be very hard on tyres.

[wisepie]

Make them safer and a little bit more durable, for sure, but no need for a radical revamp to suit a certain other team. Delamination and punctures are too common, and drivers need to be able to push, not base their race on how far they can go on a given set, it defeats the object of motor racing.

[FrankAlfa]

After looking at Alonso's Tires as the end of the race; I would say change the tires to have a bit less graining and the puncture issue. We saw a huge amount of rubber fragments off the racing line and that is concerning as well. Pirelli can certainly dial the tires in to a range that still has controlled grip loss by having a layer of VERY HARD compound beneath the spec tire layer so that less grip is encountered but no delamination or shredding of the tire. This can be Engineered.

ciao,

Forza Ferrari!!!

[Senna4Ever]

A little anaylisis done by myself about the tire issue

2013

Race duration: 1:39:16,596 (185,605 km/h) - Alonso
Qualifying Time: 1:20.718 (207,612 km/h) - Rosberg
Race fastest time: 1:26.217 (194,370 km/h) - Gutierrez

Number of pit stops: 79

2012

Race duration: 1:39:09,145 (185,838 km/h) - Maldonado
Pole: 1:22.285 (203,658 km/h) - Maldonado
Race fastest time: 1:26.25 (194,296 km/h) - Grosjean

Number of pit stops: 67
3x4stoppers
16x3stoppers
3x2stoppers
1x1stopper

2011

Race duration: 1:39:03,301 (186,020 km/h) - Vettel
Pole: 1:20.981 (206,937 km/h) - Webber
Race fastest time: 1:26.727 (193,227 km/h) - Hamilton

Number of pit stops: 77
7x4stoppers (Vettel was one of them)
16x3stoppers
1x1stopper
= 77

2010

Race duration: 1:35:44,101 (192,471 km/h) - Webber
Pole: 1:19.995 (209,488 km/h) - Webber
Race fastest time: 1:24.357 (198,656 km/h) - Hamilton

Number of pit stops: 28
1x3stopper
4x2stoppers
17x1stoppers

2009

Race duration: 1:37:19,202 (189,337 km/h) - Button in Brawn-Super-Blown-Diffuser
Pole: 1:20.527 (208,104 km/h) - Button
Race fastest time: 1:22.762 (202,484 km/h) - Barrichello

Number of pit stops: 32
1x4stopper
2x3stoppers
11x2stoppers

So comparing all the years you see the numbers of pit stops growing anyway ... 2011 was close to this years. The critics about "not pushing" is also a fake as the race duration isn't rising that much that you can say that the guys are only cruising ...

It is a shame for all journalists whom are no crying the same 'bull ' like Marko and (of course Mateschitz talks same nonsense as Marko who is his whistle blower).

What we can blame to Pirelli is that some of the tires are falling apart to easily. But as shown above it is not true that you can't push with them anymore as Vettel is crying. Otherwise the times must have gone much higher as when the lap time grows because of 'only cruising' the total duration should have increasing significantly compared to the years when Vettel and Marko were more pushing in their opinion.

We have some Teams who can deal with the situation ... and some do not. And instead of asking why is this 3x world champion team like Red Bull not able to deal with that they blame others. Mateschitz and his ghost writers blaming that this is a tire challenge ... okay then it is ... and you have to challenge ... as it was no problem for RedBulls and their rat tail as it was a aerodynamic challenge only ...

[Nero Horse]

If there was a guarantee that making tyres more durable wouldn't affect Ferrari's performance one bit, then I would say "Go for it Pirelli, make the tyres harder." but since there ain't no such guarantees then I'm totally against making any major changes to tyre compounds. It would be absolutely ridiculous and complete farce if Pirelli would make changes to tyre compounds and it would end up playing all the good cards into Red Bull's greedy little fat hands. Ferrari has worked hard to get these tyres to work on F138 and now if Pirelli would make drastic changes to the tyre compounds then it would be exactly like penalizing Ferrari for doing a great job. I say NO!!! to any major tyre compound changes. All that Pirelli needs to look at is the delamination issue and that's it. Let the other teams figure out tyre problems on their own. Red Bull, Mercedes and others have only themselves to blame for not getting these tyres to work properly. Nobody helped Ferrari when RB had the blown diffuser advantage.

[Forzi]

Though it would really benefit RedBull and Mercedes, these tires are just wrong. I've always been a fan of the idea of drivers going over the limit the whole race, pushing the car as much as they can and really showing whose the better driver. Something really has to be done. DRS and KERS was already enough for my taste, but now hearing on team radio drivers screaming that the tires went off after 10 laps and engineers telling the driver to look after them as much as possible even a specific tire in a specific turn just goes a lil too far. It's not racing, it's just a "who saves the tires best" competition. Look at lotus, the car ain't aerodynamicly close to being as good as RedBull, but Kimi is constantly on the podium, the main competitor to Vettel so far. All that reached by minding his own business the whole race, abusing tacticly his cars ability to save tires and finishing as he said "easiest races of his career". It's bitter to call this real racing. Really really hopping the new regs of 2014 will be enough to throw out these darn tires.

Though this would hurt us a bit, i'd partly agree with the idea of changing the tires a bit. We need to remember, that we also as all the rest would get the benefit of having better tires. We're really not the ones to prise them. Already had some tire failures and at times, i'd say we're as bad with them as RedBull.

[Nero Horse]

Though it would really benefit RedBull and Mercedes, these tires are just wrong. I've always been a fan of the idea of drivers going over the limit the whole race, pushing the car as much as they can and really showing whose the better driver.

So basically you would prefer to see a better show, even if it means Red Bull domination, Vettel's girly screams when he wins and Ferrari playing catch up again? Because that's exactly what could happen if Pirelli completely changes the compounds. Be very careful what you wish for.

[REDARMYSOJA]

Though it would really benefit RedBull and Mercedes, these tires are just wrong. I've always been a fan of the idea of drivers going over the limit the whole race, pushing the car as much as they can and really showing whose the better driver. Something really has to be done.

I tell you what they can do, they can build a car to hold up to the tires like they know they should. Neither Ferrari seemed to have much trouble pushing the car all day. And no one seemed to mind when Vettel won making 4 stops at the 2011 race.

[ferrari4life]

while i think the tire situation is out of control.. having tires puncture so frequently and fall apart is nuts.

If the tires are changed and red-bull starts to win again I am done with this sport.

[OSS EL BOSS]

Ferrari and especially Lotus will be pushing hard to keep the changes in control Pirelli only needs to impove the reliability of the tires.
Martin Whitmarch told sky that Fernando was the only driver who was able to switch the super durable tyre Pirelli brought to Barcelona on in the first practice session, so I am confident the changes will not affect us that much.

[Nero Horse]

I tell you what they can do, they can build a car to hold up to the tires like they know they should. Neither Ferrari seemed to have much trouble pushing the car all day. And no one seemed to mind when Vettel won making 4 stops at the 2011 race.

Yes, exactly! It's up to RB, Mercedes and other teams to make a car which would be better suited to these tyres. Everyone had equal amount of time to test these tyres during pre-season testing and every team knew what kind of tyres Pirelli would bring for this season. So the conditions are the same for everybody and Ferrari and Lotus have just done a better job than the rest, it's simple as that. There's absolutely no need to make major changes to the tyre compounds, let the pathetic whiners and moaners at Red Cow cry all they want. One thing that needs to be fixed is the delamination issue though.

[Aberracus]

Reliability so no delamination is ok, but i can not understand why 4 pits stop are too much stops?

And Hamilton going so slow, is only because he elected to go for a 3 stops....

In Verger situation i could clearly see the problem arise when Hulk hit him in the pits in exactly that tire, the wheel probably was left un balanced or something so it keeps delaminating, but that shouldn't happen in a normal setup car.


Pirelli is preparing to bend in favor of Red Bull, we have to mount pressure so it not happen...

[Tifoso]

To heck with RB. No one forced them to design a tire eating car. I say they change the tires so that they are even less friendly to RB, resulting in multiple (safe) DNF's.

[eugene22n]

I wouldn't worry because of one fact:

If they make a change in the tire structure it will turn the aerodynamics of EVERY car on its head. Including Red Bull. They will not do this.

What they are likely to do is to tweak and notch the compounds up in their durability. Which is fine because we do quite well on the harder tires anyways.

[No1.FerrariFan!]

Hi all this is my first post, I have always been a guest and now I thought I would like to be part of this community.

I thought I would have my say because this is really upsetting.

If Pirelli go and change the tyres now they are changing the Championship to suit Mercedes and Readbull. Redbull could reduce some downforce to help their situation the only problem and probably the reason why they won’t is because Vettle can’t drive a slightly unsettled car and they know that Webber would out pace him then. For the past 2-3 yrs Ferrari have struggled to get heat into their tyres did they complain? Did Pirelli change for them? NO, otherwise Fernando would have won all those Championships. People need to stop complaining, oh to many pitstops, not enough, the sky is blue, now it’s grey, there are cross winds today, you get my point. Martin Brundle has said that the race was hard to follow, that just says to me that he believes the F1 fans are stupid or maybe he is the one that was struggling I don’t know. I loved the race!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can’t remember Christian Horner complaining about the tyres after Malaysia & Bahrain this year.

I hope for the sake of the sport they don’t go changing the tyres, maybe just tweak the durability.

[Nova]

If they make a tire that grains and laminates less, that could also help Ferrari.

[Hornet]

Though it would really benefit RedBull and Mercedes, these tires are just wrong. I've always been a fan of the idea of drivers going over the limit the whole race, pushing the car as much as they can and really showing whose the better driver. Something really has to be done. DRS and KERS was already enough for my taste, but now hearing on team radio drivers screaming that the tires went off after 10 laps and engineers telling the driver to look after them as much as possible even a specific tire in a specific turn just goes a lil too far. It's not racing, it's just a "who saves the tires best" competition. Look at lotus, the car ain't aerodynamicly close to being as good as RedBull, but Kimi is constantly on the podium, the main competitor to Vettel so far. All that reached by minding his own business the whole race, abusing tacticly his cars ability to save tires and finishing as he said "easiest races of his career". It's bitter to call this real racing. Really really hopping the new regs of 2014 will be enough to throw out these darn tires.

Though this would hurt us a bit, i'd partly agree with the idea of changing the tires a bit. We need to remember, that we also as all the rest would get the benefit of having better tires. We're really not the ones to prise them. Already had some tire failures and at times, i'd say we're as bad with them as RedBull.

Conserving tires will always be part of the game no matter what you do, because teams will try to make 1 pit stop lesser if they can.

I don't know if Red Bull have the most downforce but it doesn't matter. The aim of Formula 1 is to reward the best race driver, not the best downforce car. If Red Bull have the most downforce but completely destroy the tires, does it still mean they deserve to win more than others? No I don't think so. It simply means they are doing it wrong. Alonso and Massa was doing many overtaking during the race, that's hardly conservative. You can push on these tires, period. Red Bull just don't know how to do it.

I don't care if Red Bull have more downforce than Ferrari or Lotus. Ferrari won because they understood every important element in a race including the tires, and they have the best driver who knows how to race.

[Forzi]

It's a delicate topic since the way it unfolds decides who will get the upper hand at this part of the season. Those that like the drama, will side with the tires, others that hate the artificial drama and want this to be racing on the limit as it used to be will want them gone. Just get refuling back and we'll be able to drop drs and the tires.

Though it would hurt us, im sure it wouldnt destroy us. We'd still be better with the tires then most. Those few additional laps of better tires wouldnt go away.

[Senna4Ever]

It's not racing, it's just a "who saves the tires best" competition. Look at lotus, the car ain't aerodynamicly close to being as good as RedBull, but Kimi is constantly on the podium, the main competitor to Vettel so far. All that reached by minding his own business the whole race, abusing tacticly his cars ability to save tires and finishing as he said "easiest races of his career". It's bitter to call this real racing. Really really hopping the new regs of 2014 will be enough to throw out these darn tires.

Nothing was done when it was a pure aerodynamics competition and no one was able to get close to Newey's developments. Only at the end of the season FIA closed gaps in the rules. Only LDM complained it that it is too much aerodynamic ... but he was blamed by media: yes of course he says that because Ferrari doesn't get it right ...

Now the situation is to build or setup a car that can deal with both. And it was the same situation for everyone when the season started. And somehow they didn't manage it. And I would put my hand into fire: if we would have the same situation like in the '00 years, where we had Bridgestone & Michelin, RedBull would complain also that it is unfair competition and again a pure tire war when they are not upfront ... They are now in the situation that they have a variable in the game which they seems not to understand right which others do.

RedBull would have had an easy way out: last week the teams made a poll about the relaunch of testing during season. RedBull could have be part of the supporters to test with Pirelli tires to get their issues solved by testing. What did the do? They where on the side of the opponents. Why? Maybe they haven't the capacity to run such a test team as they have focused on simulation?

And as the figures show the races are not gonna be much "slower" as they complain. Did anyone complain about 77 pit stops in 2011?

I give my full support for all who say that Pirelli has to take care about quality control. A tire might loose grip but he shouldn't fall apart or loose the half of the running surface at once.

Who is really complaining about the tires:
Mercedes (have the same issue like last year where there had already a massive problems with the tires the entire season (except some highlights))
Red Bull (didn't had any issues with the tires at the end of the season when everything was running for Vettel. They only complained about the alternator ....)
and of course British and German Media:
- Germanys next Top Model Vettel is not upfront - so national pride is damaged and all the upset die hard Schumacher Fans keep their hopes high in Vettel ...
- Mercedes putted a lot of effort into the team structure and development, god Schumacher was stained a bit in his second carrier at Merc, they started from Pole 3 times in a row but couldn't make out of it
- McLaren messed it up completely during winter so what to talk about them?

Did we complain Pirelli last year as we didn't get temperature in it?
Did we complain Pirelli last year for Canada?
Most of what I've read here is that we complain about the Team, the members and the drivers ...

Did anybody complain about last years Sauber who was able to make some goods points because of their tire management car last year?

Something completely different: how should Pirelli 'bake' a good tire if they have no actual car to test the tire? It is easy to blame Pirelli now for something where they have to pick in the dark without having a modern car where they are able to test their components ....

Finally I say it again: I give my full support for all who say that Pirelli has to take care about quality control. A tire might loose grip but he shouldn't fall apart or loose the half of the running surface at once.

[impactX]

Other teams need to hire the likes of Hirohide Hamashima and make the tyres interact with the car better.

[PURE PASSION]

As many said before, it's not the tires fault!! I saw Ferrari perfecting the 4stop strategy (full attack with continues fastest laps) and Lotus perfecting the 3 stop strategy with concerving the tires but putting pretty fast lap times!!! So in this case the tires where good!!!
The answer is RBR and Merc watch and learn!!!!!!!!

[trabzon]

irelli says it can bring boring processions back to F1 if asked
By Jonathan Noble Monday, May 13th 2013, 16:06 GMT

Pirelli says it will help bring back boring processions to Formula 1 if that is what teams and fans want.

In the wake of a fresh debate about the impact the tyres are having on the sport - and Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz claiming F1 "has nothing to do with racing anymore" – Pirelli has reiterated it is only doing what it has been asked to.

When Pirelli returned to F1 for the 2011 season, it was asked to spice up the show and deliver multiple stop races with high degrading rubber, just like the famous 2010 Canadian Grand Prix.

Paul Hembery, its motorsport boss, is aware his company is facing criticism for what is happening on track right now, but he has made it clear that those calling for a radical overhaul need to be sure about exactly what they are hoping for.

"What do you want?" he said. "We were asked to provide two to three stops and replicate Canada [2010].

"I know some of you would like us to do a one stop race where tyres are not a factor, and you can go back to processional racing where the qualifying position is the end position, if that is what you want in racing.

"What do you want us to do? You tell us, we will do it."

Hembery suggested that his company was baffled about why the tyre situation was being viewed as so extreme this year, when it has been no different ever since it returned to F1 in 2011.

"It is rather bizarre because we are only doing what we did in the last two years," he said.

"We don't understand why you [the media] are all so excited.

"It is a bit bizarre - unless you all want us to give tyres to Red Bull to help them win the championship, which appears to be the case.

"I think it is pretty clear. There is one team who will benefit from a change and that is them."

Red Bull's RB9 is widely believed to be the car that produces the most downforce in Formula 1 this year, but it cannot make use of all that peak performance because it puts the tyres under too much stress.

The nature of the challenge of looking after tyres means cars that are more mechanically sympathetic like the Lotus and Ferrari are better equipped when it comes to being consistent in the races.

[Greig]

@NobleF1 Pirelli is to make structural changes to tyres from Canadian GP to ensure 2/3 stop races. Elements of 2012/2013 design merged. Story soon

[Kingdom Hearts]

I only hope that our car likes this tyres.

[Meiga]

I only hope that our car likes this tyres.

I have to say that I do not understand why Ferrari is allowing this change to take place. I don't remember Pirelli accomodating the red team when it had issues with warming up the tyres, I can't see why they should now accomodate those who have issues with saving them.

[F2002]

Red Bull have suffered since the ban on EBD.

The tyres are the same for everybody.

They want to win by having an 'unfair' advantage.

[theforce]

Pirelli making changes for Canada

Paul Hembery says Pirelli will make "some structural changes" to the tyres in time for the Canadian Grand Prix in order to bring races back to two or three stop strategies.

The decision comes after the hardest two compounds delivered a four-stop race in Barcelona on Sunday. Following a Pirelli meeting on Monday, Hembery tweeted the new tyres would also combine "elements [of] 2012 and 2013 products", and that the "changes made in interests of sport".

Speaking exclusively to ESPN after the race, Hembery explained just how Pirelli had ended up getting the tyre compounds wrong and said there were a number of options available which it would consider next.

"We're looking at compounds and structure, and the idea is obviously to get back to our two/three stop strategies," Hembery said. "What you've got at the moment is a combination of the cars are really going hard - much harder than we had anticipated, big steps forward in performance - together with a structure that pushes very heavily the compounds. It's a very aggressive structure in the corners and you're pushing the compounds beyond the limits.

"Now the question is are you able to - in a short space of time - change the compounds and provide the desired result? Bearing in mind we have such limited access to cars and testing… Equally, can you modify the structure so that it is less aggressive to the compounds, or go back to say last year's structure with this year's compounds which is somewhere in the middle. It's a difficult thing to get right.

"Four stops wasn't something that we want; we don't like it. It's not dramatic, I mean we've had an interesting race and for many years Barcelona has been the most boring race on the calendar. To have a Ferrari with Alonso winning his home event doesn't make it such a bad weekend overall, but if that were to continue then I think that would be wrong."

Asked by ESPN if he felt changes would be unfair on some teams, Hembery replied: "Well, we're never going to get them all to agree."

...then why are you giving in to only ONE team's whinging???

[kiwifella]

Dont change a thing!!!
It seems to suit us just fine!!!!!
Let the Red Cows squeal just cause it dont suit them!!!

Come on Tifosi.............5 years out in the cold and, arguably any help we can get anytime would be just the bees knees. If we dont work the regs to suit us, you bet your bottom dollar the Red Cows will every day of the week!!!

Forza Ferrari