Pirelli tyre situation - All discussion here

[FrankAlfa]

The problem is not that Pirelli can't do what they need to do! The issue is Paul Hembrey "Over Reached" at the expense of Pirelli!!!!! We are talking about one guy controling what the Pirelli Engineers do directing them to make tire that have a rapid dropoff in keeping with the DEMAND of the FIA to make Formula One "EXCITING"!!!!!!!!!!!! Last year the struggle to understand the tire was a demanding but managable process and that was not good in Paul Hembrey's opinion and so we have the Formula One Chaos we see today!!!!!!! Pirelli was told by Bernie and the FIA to turn Formula One on its ear and "Create Drama"!!!!!!!! This is what has happened and we now know that Formula One is just a "Sham" with all artificial Drama and Results.

Pirelli need to calm things down and be quiet about their work. Unfortunately, the only emotional, blabbering, confused bloke is Paul Hembrey!!!!! Pirelli should fire him and get one of their people from Milan to step in and clean this mess up!!!!!!! Paul Hembrey is way over his head and Pirelli have to respond quickly and REPLACE HIM. I think they will wait adn see how the Tribunal turns out. Pirelli could have been a "Pillar" of Formula One, as they have been in other forms of racing for such a long time now but instead they are looked upon in very unfavorable light and I blame the Brit, Paul Hembery for this!!!!!

[wisepie]

Hang on, FrankAlfa, Hembrey is only doing what Bernie and the FIA are asking him to do, creating confusion and making a level playing field practically impossible, so no need to have a pop at us Brits!

[Senna4Ever]

The tyres of Australia & Canada are not the same tyres, or temperature of the track change a lot in each track...

Oh,
I'm not great in statistics and historical data knowledge ... If someone ask me which type of tires had been used in Canada - I would have to as Google ...
So if I'm right same types of tires had been used in Melbourne as in Canada too but in Canada the tires lifetime last even longer.

I think this might have multiple reasons:
- A the teams had 6 races in between to learn
- track temperature
- different structure of the road surface
- different layout of the track

[sagi58]

The problem is not that Pirelli can't do what they need to do! The issue is Paul Hembrey "Over Reached" at the expense of Pirelli!!!!!

Pirelli need to calm things down and be quiet about their work... I think they will wait adn see how the Tribunal turns out. Pirelli could have been a "Pillar" of Formula One, as they have been in other forms of racing for such a long time now but instead they are looked upon in very unfavorable light and I blame the Brit, Paul Hembery for this!!!!!

Your dislike of Hembrey is duly noted; however, since Pirelli have hired him and since Pirelli have given him this responsibility, that would suggest that Pirelli believe in him and trust him to represent them well. I very much doubt that Pirelli put him in charge if they didn't expect success! You see, Pirelli are responsible for this situation, regardless of whom the figurehead happens to be. Hembrey is not the Lone Ranger, he has Pirelli backing!

IF Hembrey becomes Pirelli's scapegoat after the Tribunal decision, then that too will be Pirelli's decision, which would cast just as much doubt upon their ability, considering they've left Hembrey in charge until now!

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh; but, any company, any team, any group is only as strong as its weakest link!

[Greig]

Your dislike of Hembrey is duly noted; however, since Pirelli have hired him and since Pirelli have given him this responsibility, that would suggest that Pirelli believe in him and trust him to represent them well. I very much doubt that Pirelli put him in charge if they didn't expect success! You see, Pirelli are responsible for this situation, regardless of whom the figurehead happens to be. Hembrey is not the Lone Ranger, he has Pirelli backing!

IF Hembrey becomes Pirelli's scapegoat after the Tribunal decision, then that too will be Pirelli's decision, which would cast just as much doubt upon their ability, considering they've left Hembrey in charge until now!

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh; but, any company, any team, any group is only as strong as its weakest link!

The use of the bold really does make you seem very patronising.

[FrankAlfa]

You state the situation EXACTLY; PIRELLI PUT HEMBREY IN CHARGE AND HE IS IN THE CALLING THE SHOTS FOR THEM IN FORMULA ONE AT THE MOMENT. Hembrey has mismanaged the situation and his very poor direction has caused this mess!!!!!! His intent has been to make the tires a very odd-ball thin g that keep F1 Engineers guessing and keep the behavior of tires a real challenge to stay on top of! This is what he ORDERED Pirelli Engineers to do but he had them go too far!!!!! Now he has created a Monster and he is trying to make everyone happy which can not happen. Pirelli have to fire Paul Hembrey for the terrible situation HE has caused then the Pirelli Engineers have to take a set back to come up with tire that less extreme but have a fixed number of laps in them. The other thing to all this is Pirelli should not choosing the tires to use on each weekend! Let the FIA decide or give the teams a choice of three types of tires to use.

Last year was fine with very good racing. This year is a mess and this is all Paul Hembrey's doing! Fire Him and move on!

[Tony]

Guys can we try not to bash other countries please, this is a global forum with people from all over the world and it has been up a long time exactly because of that.... please try to keep this in mind when posting...

[Tony]

The tyres of Australia & Canada are not the same tyres, or temperature of the track change a lot in each track...

I'm not sure what you mean, the tyres in both charts are listed as super soft and medium?

[Senna4Ever]

I'm not sure what you mean, the tyres in both charts are listed as super soft and medium?

As I have understand I think @DIEK has suspect, that even if the tires in Melbourne and Canada are marked with the same colour they seem to be different due to the different performance (shown on the chart in the initial posting)

[wisepie]

This is all getting a bit fractious now, we have unpredictable racing, if you can call it that, as a result of the tyre issues and this has become a bigger factor than the cars and designers themselves, which makes a mockery of the words motor-sport. Criticism is being levelled at Hembrey/Pirelli when they're doing what was requested in spicing up the racing, but now seem to have gone a step too far.
No point in slagging them off as it's a done deal, but what with the Merc situation, something has to change to make things totally fair and transparent.

[sagi58]

You state the situation EXACTLY; PIRELLI PUT HEMBREY IN CHARGE AND HE IS IN THE CALLING THE SHOTS FOR THEM IN FORMULA ONE AT THE MOMENT...

I understand your frustration, since I am not very happy with this situation, either! However, I would imagine that it's more than "just one man" running the show and that there must be a team that is involved in the decision-making, right?

[sagi58]

...as a result of the tyre issues and this has become a bigger factor than the cars and designers themselves, which makes a mockery of the words motor-sport. Criticism is being levelled at Hembrey/Pirelli when they're doing what was requested in spicing up the racing, but now seem to have gone a step too far...

Great synopsis, wisepie!! I think what's happened is that the little bit of power the FIA gave Pirelli has gone to their collective head and we are dealing with the fall-out!

[Rob]

LAUDA DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT SECRET TYRE TEST - REPORT
Wednesday 19 June at 16:35 : Jun.19 (GMM) Niki Lauda only knew about Mercedes' secret tyre test at Barcelona in May once "the wheels were turning".

That is the claim on Wednesday of the respected Auto Motor und Sport correspondent Michael Schmidt, as F1 braces for the first ever hearing of Jean Todt's new international tribunal.

Reportedly armed with lawyers and engineers of the Brackley based team, the sole Mercedes chief deployed to Paris on Thursday morning will be Ross Brawn, after a spokesman confirmed that Lauda and Toto Wolff will not be there.

After a disappointing first three years of the 'works' F1 foray, the Austrian pair are the new faces at Mercedes, and both shareholders.

There has been speculation Brawn will be the scapegoat, or fall guy, with former McLaren technical director Paddy Lowe already at work at Brackley, and earmarked to eventually succeed Brawn.

"It was my decision to do the test, so that's a fact," Brawn told reporters in Canada recently. "Let's see what occurs at the tribunal and go from there."

Schmidt reported on Wednesday that Lauda, the triple world champion and Mercedes F1 chairman, first heard about the highly controversial Barcelona test "when the wheels were already turning".

He added that Lauda's deputies insisted that permission had been sought for the use of the 2013 car.

http://www.onestopstrategy.com/daily...+-+report.html

[Hermann]

Oh sure Lauda didn't know a thing- rats are leaving the sinking ship?

[NickEice]

I hope Mercedes is banned from the Constructors Championship similar to McLaren 2007. That way Caterham and Marussia both win some prize money at the end of the year and they can use that to close the gap to the midfield. Also, any money Mercedes doesn't win is beneficial to us next year as most people see them as being a very formidable constructor under the new formula.

[Kiwi Nick]

Looks like Brawn is done. He was solely responsible and will be solely punished. The Austrian take over is complete.

[Rishu]

I hope Mercedes is banned from the Constructors Championship similar to McLaren 2007.

That will not be enough. WDC will still remain manipulated. They have to allow other teams to go for a 1000km test to maintain level playing field.

[mirafiori]

Well today is D Day for Mercedes and Pirelli, I will be surprised and shocked, if Mercedes was not punished in some way, Regarding Pirelli, It is still unclear what rules they have or have not broken, but for Mercedes Its a clear case. When this story broke, I was very critical of Brawn, Hembery, Whiting, and Bernie, I stated that they were the English Mafia, and these guys had a massive influence in the rules, and what happens on a daily basis in formula one, I still maintain this belief. We have all heard the story's of Ross has a letter from Charlie to test, Friendships between Bernie and Charlie, Charlie and Hembery, but it looks like Ross could be hit hardest today, if a decision is made.

[wisepie]

I can't imagine that Ross Brawn would want to sully his name by taking all the blame for the tests from the Mercedes side of the fence, even if he does realise that it's a way to push him out and make the German/Austrian complete. Perhaps Ross has had enough and wants some more gardening/fishing leave, but whatever the outcome today, I hope justice will prevail.

[mirafiori]

I can't imagine that Ross Brawn would want to sully his name by taking all the blame for the tests from the Mercedes side of the fence, even if he does realise that it's a way to push him out and make the German/Austrian complete. Perhaps Ross has had enough and wants some more gardening/fishing leave, but whatever the outcome today, I hope justice will prevail.

In Canada at the team principal conference, Ross said the decision to test at Barcelona was his, and his alone. he will take full responsibility, but he did say he was confident of the outcome, when all the facts are on the table. Maybe he has a letter, or some sort of notification, allowing him to test. there could be a twist to the story.....

[Hornet]

Mercedes GP as a team needs to be held responsible for the incident. They cannot just punish Ross Brawn alone and pretend like nothing happened. They need to punish the entire team such as stripping off their WCC points.

[Greig]

Horner has turned up at the hearing, probably to stick the knife in

[killer]

So Ross is tasked to fall on his sword. Class act, Mercedes are.

[Rishu]

Horner has turned up at the hearing, probably to stick the knife in

[Greig]

The FIA insists that Mercedes and Pirelli were never granted official permission by the governing body to run its 2013 car during the post-Spanish Grand Prix test.

Furthermore, it claims that that any indication of approval Mercedes had to use its current car by F1 race director Charlie Whiting was 'irrelevant'.

As the hearing into whether or not Mercedes and Pirelli breached the rules in running a 2013 car for a tyre test at Barcelona got underway in Paris, motor racing's governing body laid out its reasoning for bringing the matter in front of the International Tribunal.

And with one of the key issues of the case believed to relate to approval it may have had from Whiting, the FIA's legal representative Mark Howard QC made it clear that only the World Motor Sport Council would have the right to waive the rules.

"Whether or not Whiting consented, it is irrelevant, because testing in relation to Article 22 is a breach, unless it [a rule change] is granted by the World Motor Sport Council," he said.

Howard revealed that Whiting was first phoned by Mercedes team manager Ron Meadows on May 2 about the possibility of running a 2013 car, with team principal Ross Brawn holding a follow-up conversation later in the day.

Howard added: "Whiting was asked a general and non-specific question - the general question on the permissibility of using a 2013 car.

"His preliminary response was that such a test would comply with Article 22 providing purpose was for Pirelli to test its tyre and he would check."

Whiting emailed FIA lawyer Sebastian Bernard the following day to enquire about the situation, and was informed that such a scenario could be possible, but would be subject to Pirelli inviting all the others team to test and demonstrate that it has done so.

Howard said that Whiting informed Brawn of the FIA's legal position, but reiterated that it was not a binding stance.

"This communication was not an agreement by the FIA - it was nothing more than Whiting and Bernard's interpretation of [article] 22."

The FIA argues that rival teams were not invited to take part in the Barcelona test with a current car subsequent to the Whiting discussions, even though Pirelli had offered other teams the possibility to test back in 2012.

Looks like Pirelli will take the blame then....

[Hermann]

In essence, Mercedes are arguing that because this wasn't their test, they cannot be prosecuted under the terms of the sporting regulations
by Pete Gill 12:11 PM
Mercedes claim that because the test was theirs, it was not 'essential' they received it. However, because Ross Brawn showed an 'abundance of caution, he thought he should check with Mr Whiting and the FIA's legal department. They said yes, end of story

FIA hearing into Testgate in session in Paris; FIA stress they did not approve the test and Mercedes did not receive explicit permission to stage the test; 'informal communications' held with Charlie Whiting but governing body maintain that permissible conditions in which the test could take place were not met

Live chat blog: http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/...ibunal-updates

[sagi58]

Mercedes GP as a team needs to be held responsible for the incident. They cannot just punish Ross Brawn alone and pretend like nothing happened. They need to punish the entire team such as stripping off their WCC points.

Completely agree with you on this!!!
Brawn is a representative of the team and as such acted on behalf of the team!!
Just as Whiting is a representative of the FIA and acted on behalf of the FIA!!
And, just as Hembrey is a Pirelli representative and acts on their behalf!!
If one is "punished" all three should be, along with their respective organizations!!!


p.s. Just thought of something, wouldn't that be ironic? The FIA sanctioning itself because of Whiting!!

[Hermann]

Mercedes argue that if they are in breach of Article 151c then so too are Ferrari as there isn't a substantial difference between the 2011 and 2013 cars
by Pete Gill 12:46 PM

What?

[Rishu]

What?

Desparation

[Sab_g]

FIA Tribunal: Mercedes challenges Ferrari's tyre test with 2011 car
By Jonathan Noble Thursday, June 20th 2013, 10:38 GMT

Mercedes claims that if it is found guilty of breaching Formula 1 testing rules by running its 2013 car at Barcelona, then Ferrari should also be sanctioned for its Pirelli tyre test earlier this year.

During the team's testimony at the FIA headquarters in Paris on Thursday, Mercedes' lawyer Paul Harris QC claimed that if the International Tribunal adopts a strict interpretation of the testing rules, then Ferrari would also have to be in the wrong even though it ran its 2011 car.

Ferrari took part in a Pirelli tyre test at Barcelona ahead of the Spanish Grand Prix using a two-year-old car with its test driver Pedro de la Rosa.

MERCEDES AND PIRELLI TYRE TEST TRIBUNAL
FIA says it didn't grant permission for test
Pirelli summoned over test secrecy
Rules not details key to Paris hearing
How the International Tribunal works
Although it has been accepted by the FIA that running two-year-old cars is permissible, Harris argues that a strict interpretation of article 22 says that cars cannot 'conform substantially' with the current rules.

Article 22 defines testing as: "Any track running time not part of an event undertaken by a competitor entered in the championship, using cars which conform substantially with the current Formula 1 technical regulations in addition to those from the previous or subsequent year."

Harris said: "Our position is if we are wrong on interpretation of what [article] 22 means and there was track running by us, such as we are in breach, it follows that Ferrari were also in breach.

"They ran their car on track and we argue their car followed substantially with the regulations... I put the marker down.

"It does not follow that if Ferrari runs on track a 2011 car, that that 2011 car does not confirm substantially to either the 2012 or 2013 regulations.

"There was only half [a second] difference between the 2011 cars and 2013 cars, showing the changes between 2011 and 2013 are minuscule in terms of performance."

Mercedes also revealed that Ferrari had another testing opportunity in 2012 with Pirelli, when Felipe Massa was used in its pre-Spanish Grand Prix test and that the team conducted more than 1000 kilometres.

Harris also added that if Ferrari was not deemed to be in breach of article 151C for conducting its 2011 car test, then Mercedes could not be either for running a 2013 contender.

"We note the same lack of transparency being held against us is identical compared to the lack of transparency with both Ferrari tests," he said.

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