Ferrari and Fernando were robbed of 2013 title by Pirelli- NEWEY

[scuderia_nano]

Sebastian Vettel benefited from mid-season tyre rules change

By Andrew Benson
Chief F1 writer in Greater Noida

Red Bull say that changing the design of Formula 1's tyres mid-season was key to Sebastian Vettel's title win.Ferrari's Fernando Alonso was only 21 points behind the German after eight races this season.But the tyres were changed afterfailures at the British Grand Prix in June,and Vettel has won seven out of eight races since."Going back to 2012 tyres for sure helped us," Red Bull designer Adrian Newey said."Our car generally gets quite a bit of its benefit in the high-speed corners and the '13 tyres were much more load-sensitive."It was much easier to damage them if you put too much load into them, so we couldn't really use that high-speed benefit on the '13 tyres."Alonso had already identified the decision to revert to the more durable 2012 tyres as areason for Ferrari's loss of form.

Super-competitive Red Bull

"Arguably with 20-20 hindsight you could say we pushed more than we needed to."Red Bull designer Adrian NeweyPirelli changed the tyre design for 2013 but a series of failures in early-season races led todisquiet among teams and drivers,and a change was then forced on the sport by seven tyre failures during the British Grand Prix at the end of June, one of whichcost Mercedes driver Lewis Hamilton a victory.A change in materials was made for the subsequent German Grand Prix, before theentire construction of the tyre was changed for the next race in Hungary,with a reversion to the 2012 design.Hamilton won in Hungary, but both he and Newey believe that was only because Vettel got stuck behind slower cars - including Jenson Button's McLaren.Since then, Vettel has won six consecutive races and the Germansealed his fourth championship in a rowwith victory in India on Sunday.Newey said that Red Bull's domination during the second half of the season was also down to them improving their car - extra performance they were able to exploit because of the greater durability of the tyres."We made some decent steps," said Newey, Red Bull's chief technical officer. "We actually introduced quite a few parts to the car, some of them in Hungary.Play mediaSebastian Vettel - the season so far"And really Hungary was one that got away for us in as much as I feel that was a weekend we didn't manage to deliver the full potential of the car, partly through set-up, although partly what ruined our race, of course, was Seb getting stuck behind Jenson."So that was a disappointment that perhaps masked where we'd got to in Hungary. In other words, we'd got further than it showed."But there was no single magic component or magic bullet to our upturn in performance."It was a number of components and we'd had a couple of races we probably should have done better at."Silverstone should have been an easy win [after Hamilton's retirement] but we had an input shaft failure [on the gearbox]."A bit of it was nature of circuit as well."The circuits we had as we got into the second half of the season suited the car - in as much as we'd been competitive on the medium-downforce circuits such as Bahrain and Montreal earlier in the season, but we hadn't fully got on top of the high-downforce front-limited circuits, such as China and Barcelona in particular."So Spa and Monza suited us as being medium and low-downforce circuits. And then by the time we got to Singapore, we managed to get on top of the high-downforce areas we'd struggled with a bit earlier in the season."Play mediaIs this the secret to Vettel's success?Newey said Ferrari's early season form - and the run of eight pole positions in nine races achieved by Mercedes, from the third Grand Prix in China to the 11th in Belgium - encouraged Red Bull to push hard with their car.That push went even as far as to reducing the effort Red Bull were putting into the 2014 car, which will need to take into account the new chassis and engine rules set to take effect."Ferrari started off well, but come mid-season Mercedes seemed to be making very good strides. You were kind of worrying that their development was going to overtake us and we could be on the back foot, so we kept pushing," said Newey, who haswon 10 drivers' and 10 constructors' titles with three different teams,a unique feat in F1 history."Arguably with 20-20 hindsight you could say we pushed more than we needed to, because of course all the time we were pushing on the '13 car, we weren't working on the '14 car."Equally if we'd gone the other way and backed off too early, then we'd have felt pretty sick."

[Senna4Ever]

somehow they must have at least one sorcerer as every development which they brought made their car better and faster ... Completely contrary to us ... this is really impressive ... And if its true that they have slacked their development for 2014 a bit (as Newey mentioned in the article) they might not be front runners in the first races but roll up from behind like bulldozer ...

[sreenivaschinne]

Sebastian Vettel benefited from mid-season tyre rules change

By Andrew Benson
Chief F1 writer in Greater Noida

Red Bull say that changing the design of Formula 1's tyres mid-season was key to Sebastian Vettel's title win.Ferrari's Fernando Alonso was only 21 points behind the German after eight races this season.But the tyres were changed afterfailures at the British Grand Prix in June,and Vettel has won seven out of eight races since."Going back to 2012 tyres for sure helped us," Red Bull designer Adrian Newey said."Our car generally gets quite a bit of its benefit in the high-speed corners and the '13 tyres were much more load-sensitive."It was much easier to damage them if you put too much load into them, so we couldn't really use that high-speed benefit on the '13 tyres."Alonso had already identified the decision to revert to the more durable 2012 tyres as areason for Ferrari's loss of form.

Super-competitive Red Bull

"Arguably with 20-20 hindsight you could say we pushed more than we needed to."Red Bull designer Adrian NeweyPirelli changed the tyre design for 2013 but a series of failures in early-season races led todisquiet among teams and drivers,and a change was then forced on the sport by seven tyre failures during the British Grand Prix at the end of June, one of whichcost Mercedes driver Lewis Hamilton a victory.A change in materials was made for the subsequent German Grand Prix, before theentire construction of the tyre was changed for the next race in Hungary,with a reversion to the 2012 design.Hamilton won in Hungary, but both he and Newey believe that was only because Vettel got stuck behind slower cars - including Jenson Button's McLaren.Since then, Vettel has won six consecutive races and the Germansealed his fourth championship in a rowwith victory in India on Sunday.Newey said that Red Bull's domination during the second half of the season was also down to them improving their car - extra performance they were able to exploit because of the greater durability of the tyres."We made some decent steps," said Newey, Red Bull's chief technical officer. "We actually introduced quite a few parts to the car, some of them in Hungary.Play mediaSebastian Vettel - the season so far"And really Hungary was one that got away for us in as much as I feel that was a weekend we didn't manage to deliver the full potential of the car, partly through set-up, although partly what ruined our race, of course, was Seb getting stuck behind Jenson."So that was a disappointment that perhaps masked where we'd got to in Hungary. In other words, we'd got further than it showed."But there was no single magic component or magic bullet to our upturn in performance."It was a number of components and we'd had a couple of races we probably should have done better at."Silverstone should have been an easy win [after Hamilton's retirement] but we had an input shaft failure [on the gearbox]."A bit of it was nature of circuit as well."The circuits we had as we got into the second half of the season suited the car - in as much as we'd been competitive on the medium-downforce circuits such as Bahrain and Montreal earlier in the season, but we hadn't fully got on top of the high-downforce front-limited circuits, such as China and Barcelona in particular."So Spa and Monza suited us as being medium and low-downforce circuits. And then by the time we got to Singapore, we managed to get on top of the high-downforce areas we'd struggled with a bit earlier in the season."Play mediaIs this the secret to Vettel's success?Newey said Ferrari's early season form - and the run of eight pole positions in nine races achieved by Mercedes, from the third Grand Prix in China to the 11th in Belgium - encouraged Red Bull to push hard with their car.That push went even as far as to reducing the effort Red Bull were putting into the 2014 car, which will need to take into account the new chassis and engine rules set to take effect."Ferrari started off well, but come mid-season Mercedes seemed to be making very good strides. You were kind of worrying that their development was going to overtake us and we could be on the back foot, so we kept pushing," said Newey, who haswon 10 drivers' and 10 constructors' titles with three different teams,a unique feat in F1 history."Arguably with 20-20 hindsight you could say we pushed more than we needed to, because of course all the time we were pushing on the '13 car, we weren't working on the '14 car."Equally if we'd gone the other way and backed off too early, then we'd have felt pretty sick."

so does this mean that pirelli does favours to red bull alone????????????????

[FFFerrari]

so does this mean that pirelli does favours to red bull alone????????????????

No. Mercedes also solved their tyre management problems when Pirelli reverted to 2012 specs in tyre construction.

[Hermann]

so does this mean that pirelli does favours to red bull alone????????????????

It was Mercedes who had a secret test.

[BigGar32]

Yes the tyre spec change favoured Red Bull but I still think the change was necessary. It enabled Red Bull to take advantage of their car's inherent superiority. Surely that's a good thing from a sporting point of view, regardless of who benefits! We may well have benefitted tremendously also, had our own car been good enough. It wasn't and we just have to accept that and hope we make the necessary adjustments next year.

[Ken]

I smell a conspiracy theory ?????????????????????????

So Perelli decided the racing should only be between Hamilton and Vettel :twisted

[Kyss4k]

To somehow back up Pirelli in this, they said (when everyone called for bringing back the 2012 tyres) that it would give Red Bull the tiles. Pirelli then denied that it gave Red Bull the advantage, but that was just to cover their butts.

[Silent Bob]

Yes the tyre spec change favoured Red Bull but I still think the change was necessary. It enabled Red Bull to take advantage of their car's inherent superiority. Surely that's a good thing from a sporting point of view, regardless of who benefits! We may well have benefitted tremendously also, had our own car been good enough. It wasn't and we just have to accept that and hope we make the necessary adjustments next year.

Not if a team has spent considerable time designing their car to use the tires in a certain way. The change back to 2012 tires didn't just affect the tires but also the aero at the back of the car. Red Bull had a car optimized for the 2012 tires... Ferrari had a car better suited to the 2013 tires. Would Ferrari have won if the tires had stayed the same? Maybe not, but it might have been a better season for us. Maybe our developments would have worked better, maybe strategy would have allowed us to win some races... no one will ever know. The only fact is that Red Bull dominated once the tires changed and Ferrari fell back. I don't think you should change something so critical as tires mid way through the season, there should have been a better solution.

[Greig]

In a way I can agree with BigGar32, if we had a great car yet let down by tyres then we would be shouting about it, see 2005.

Pirelli really had no option to change back, Silverstone was a disaster and the drivers were going to strike.

[Greig]

Also if we were robbed of the title then does this mean Stefano is not actually to blame?

[mirafiori]

Not if a team has spent considerable time designing their car to use the tires in a certain way. The change back to 2012 tires didn't just affect the tires but also the aero at the back of the car. Red Bull had a car optimized for the 2012 tires... Ferrari had a car better suited to the 2013 tires. Would Ferrari have won if the tires had stayed the same? Maybe not, but it might have been a better season for us. Maybe our developments would have worked better, maybe strategy would have allowed us to win some races... no one will ever know. The only fact is that Red Bull dominated once the tires changed and Ferrari fell back. I don't think you should change something so critical as tires mid way through the season, there should have been a better solution.

You are 100% correct, we all know that Ferrari were shafted, at the time there was favouritism given to Mercedes, they were struggling badly so the secret tyre test was a way of helping them to solve there tyre issues. But in the end it was Red Bull who gained the most.

[Alonsomaniac]

We were robbed of nothing. The car was not good enough.

[Mike996]

If lives are at stake, there is no other option. Seven tyre failures in one race are not acceptable from a safety point of view. Yes, it did favor certain teams and not Ferrari in the aftermath, but the reason for the reversion to 2012 spec tyres was not to do certain teams a favor but to make sure the tyres are safe.
I don't need another deadly accident.

[scuderia_nano]

Actually
All the more reasons to put blame on SD. Last year's Ferrari and Last years' Pirelli were better than This year's Ferrari and Last years' Pirelli.

Even he somewhat says that they lost on last years Advantage too.

Another example of How the team is actually going Backwards.

[wisepie]

Can it be possible that the F138 looked to be such a handful for both drivers just because of the tyre construction in the latter part of the season? Or is there something inherently wrong with the design and development of the car which caused us to go backwards with each 'upgrade'? Yes, we probably lost out a lot reverting to the 2012 tyres, but everyone else managed to overcome the problem better than us. And I don't just blame SD, it's seems that the technical masterminds were unable to work together to solve the issues.

[Rosso Corsa]

The 2013 tyres were changed before Silverstone. There were delaminations in the early races, but Pirelli made them worse by removing the steel belt prior to Silverstone, such that there were catastrophic failures. The tyre spec should never have changed from Melbourne. They were fragile but safer.

[Senna4Ever]

Yes the tyre spec change favoured Red Bull but I still think the change was necessary. It enabled Red Bull to take advantage of their car's inherent superiority. Surely that's a good thing from a sporting point of view, regardless of who benefits! We may well have benefitted tremendously also, had our own car been good enough. It wasn't and we just have to accept that and hope we make the necessary adjustments next year.

exactly

it was worth to change back as it was too dangerous to stay at the wrong tire spec.
And at least Pirelli has a hard thing to do: develop something where you're not allowed to test. No one in the world (and especially in a high level sport like F1 which should be "uppermost of the toppermost") is forced not to test a high critical component of a racing machine without testing.

Unfortunately the mid season test was wasted resources from our side as we haven't learned anything about tires in Silverstone ... or we weren't able to convert it onto our car.

[Greig]

Actually
All the more reasons to put blame on SD. Last year's Ferrari and Last years' Pirelli were better than This year's Ferrari and Last years' Pirelli.

Even he somewhat says that they lost on last years Advantage too.

Another example of How the team is actually going Backwards.

So you post a thread saying the tyre change robbed us of the title, so therefore without the tyre change then we would have won and Stefano is doing his job.

So Stefano and the team in fact did move forward and would have been title winners if not for the Pirelli change as you say? This year's Ferrari was not designed to run on last years tyres was it.

[Hornet]

Can it be possible that the F138 looked to be such a handful for both drivers just because of the tyre construction in the latter part of the season? Or is there something inherently wrong with the design and development of the car which caused us to go backwards with each 'upgrade'? Yes, we probably lost out a lot reverting to the 2012 tyres, but everyone else managed to overcome the problem better than us. And I don't just blame SD, it's seems that the technical masterminds were unable to work together to solve the issues.

From what I understand, Newey is saying the original 2013 tires were holding back the Red Bull performance because they couldn't last. Red Bull has always been the faster car, but they could not unleash their pace due to their usage of the tires.

Ferrari was never the faster car, but we got the 2013 tires right. So we were able to use our car more to it's potential while Red Bull was restricted. After Silverstone accident, there was no any choice but to go back to the old tires. They are more durable, and Red Bull then could unleash their performance and kick everyone's rear.

It was an unfortunate situation because after Silverstone accident, there was nothing we can do to avoid changing the tires. Before Silverstone, Horner was always complaining about the tires for those reasons Newey mentioned. But it didn't matter after Silverstone where it became a safety issue.

[Suzie]

Last year after Seb won, it was flags. This year after he wins, it's tyres. Always an excuse for why we didn't win.

I felt sick watching all those tyre explosions at Silverstone - let's not forget that both our drivers were affected that day, and most sane fans were very much in favour for Pirelli changing them.

I know that when Ferrari doesn't win, ranting and raving about cheating or conspiracies helps cope with the misery of defeat, but the bottom line is that another team did a better job.

[BigGar32]

Last year after Seb won, it was flags. This year after he wins, it's tyres. Always an excuse for why we didn't win.

I felt sick watching all those tyre explosions at Silverstone - let's not forget that both our drivers were affected that day, and most sane fans were very much in favour for Pirelli changing them.

I know that when Ferrari doesn't win, ranting and raving about cheating or conspiracies helps cope with the misery of defeat, but the bottom line is that another team did a better job.

Couldn't agree with you more. Sums my feelings up perfectly.

[impactX]

The only reason why the tyres blew up at Silverstone was because the teams put the left tyre on the right side and vice versa, not because there was anything wrong with the tyres structurally.

[Nova]

We were robbed of nothing. The car was not good enough.

I dont understand your reply. Its very simple actually...the F138 was a new car built to 2013 tire specs..the RB, an evolution. Ferrari was very competitive 1st part of the season. Look at the results. Now look at the results after the tire change...The 2012 tires didnt work on the F138, which shows just how new the car was. They can bring any updates they want, theyre not going to work..the car was designed for different tires. You can blame SD, Tomb, or anyone else you want to, but the truth lies in the results. And the results show just how much the tire change affected Ferrari.

I blame Pirelli..not only did their tires suit RB, but severely punished many of the other teams. And Pirelli being a big company on seeing this, should and could have introduced yet another new tire to F1. But they didnt..even after seeing how much RB dominated the 2013 season so far, they still did not do anything to level the field. I blame them for this as it does shape the season. Made it lopsided, and truth be told, boring as all get out.

You're blaming Ferrari, when they actually built a good car. By your handle, its no secret you are an Alonso fan. So yea, its ok to be ticked, but I am a Ferrari fan, and to me, this season is a lopsided wash. I cant believe the FIA let Pirelli get away with this. Pirelli is threatening to leave? Good..go away Pirelli, you've shown where your loyalty lies. The sport would be better if you did leave. Read what Newey said above...even he admits to it....

[scuderia_nano]

So you post a thread saying the tyre change robbed us of the title, so therefore without the tyre change then we would have won and Stefano is doing his job.

So Stefano and the team in fact did move forward and would have been title winners if not for the Pirelli change as you say? This year's Ferrari was not designed to run on last years tyres was it.

Firstly. We infer from what Neway said. Redbull gained a lot since The Tyres were changed.


Secondly. This year rules are same as last years with really minor changes. Even Stephano indicates that Ferrari lost Last year's advantage too.

Thirdly, Fernando, our lead driver, said that Tyre Change mid season affected our form.

And race after race from the past 4 race weekends, he has somewhat said that We lost because our development program has failed yet again.

So

Its nothing that I am saying. Its Fernando, Stephano and Neway saying things. I am merely psting them.


Why dont you open your mind and read and understand.

[FA fan]

Another secret of Red Bull's dominance in the second half of the season is emerging.

Germany's Auto Motor und Sport said former Stewart and Jaguar designer Gary Anderson, now a technical pundit for the BBC, floated the theory about the RB9.

The car, which in Sebastian Vettel's hands has won the last six grands prix on the trot, caught Anderson's attention recently when images of a rear-facing thermal camera were broadcast.

The images show that the floor just underneath the drivers' feet, the so-called 'tea-tray', was running extremely hot at slow speeds.

Anderson believes Adrian Newey may have found a way to "lift the 'tea tray' away from the track as it gets hot", allowing a lower front ride height.

Auto Motor und Sport reported on Tuesday that Force India also believes the Anderson theory, and that such a solution would be illegal.

So, in India, the FIA's technical delegate Jo Bauer reportedly put Anderson's theory to the test, heating the 'tea tray' to a temperature of 300 degrees C.

"The result? It did not move," said Auto Motor und Sport correspondent Michael Schmidt. "Consequently, the Red Bull RB9 is legal, at least in this area."

[Greig]

Firstly. We infer from what Neway said. Redbull gained a lot since The Tyres were changed.


Secondly. This year rules are same as last years with really minor changes. Even Stephano indicates that Ferrari lost Last year's advantage too.

Thirdly, Fernando, our lead driver, said that Tyre Change mid season affected our form.

And race after race from the past 4 race weekends, he has somewhat said that We lost because our development program has failed yet again.

So

Its nothing that I am saying. Its Fernando, Stephano and Neway saying things. I am merely psting them.


Why dont you open your mind and read and understand.

If we were robbed by the tyre change as your thread title states, then how do you say Ferrari done a bad job. If we design a car to work on 2013 tyres a car that would win the title then how is that us doing a bad job? So we done a great job in making a 2013 car but the tyres stopped us winning.

[scuderia_nano]

If we were robbed by the tyre change as your thread title states, then how do you say Ferrari done a bad job. If we design a car to work on 2013 tyres a car that would win the title then how is that us doing a bad job? So we done a great job in making a 2013 car but the tyres stopped us winning.

I believe you should ask Andrew Benson and Adrian Newey that. Im merely posting what they are stating.

Here Andrew suggests that Fernando was 21 points behind b4 tyres were changed.

Not Me.

[Greig]

You made the headline that it robbed us? not Benson

[scuderia_nano]

Let's try and analyse a few things.

#Q- Its seems since Pirelli changed the tyres Ferrari have struggled. Is that the case or is it simply the team have not been able to develop the car?


Alonso: The problem is our development. The problem is we didn't adapt to tyres or had steps that we planned. We arrive to races in July and with some updates that looked good on paper, but not so much on track. Annd I think that slowed down the performance inprovement that we should have had. The pirellis are an extra thing..... (Contd..)

Stephano- "This year we were unable to give our drivers a good car to fight with Vettel on equal terms from the very beginning of the season. Thanks to Fernando and his amazing talent, we managed to worry the world champion elect more than others, but unfortunately our efforts were not enough to fight all the way to end"

Ok mate, the thread title is misleading. I shouldn't have gotten influenced by Newey. Ferrari's development plan actually sucked bad and fell flat on the face 4th time in a row.

I'm going back to my Original hardcore fire Stephano stance. Thanks for the eye opener. I thought I'd give him a break but our conversation has opened my eyes as they say.

I hope Luca realizes SD's taken Ferrari backwards and takes a call.

Meanwhile you can change the thread title if you wish to.