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Thread: Ecclestone pushing for 2016 engine change

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    Ecclestone pushing for 2016 engine change

    Formula One chief Bernie Ecclestone says he is confident the Strategy Group can push through a change in engine regulations for 2016.

    The debate over engines has been lingering for much of the season, with Red Bull [Renault] and Ferrari united in the desire to lift the in-season engine freeze to help cut the gap to Mercedes. Red Bull boss Christian Horner recently called for new engines in 2016, something which would need a majority vote rather than a unanimous agreement.

    The Strategy Group, which next meets on December 18, consists of commercial rights holder Bernie Ecclestone, the FIA and six teams - Mercedes, Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Lotus - with six votes for each of the three entities.

    When asked when he wanted the engine change, Ecclestone told reporters on Thursday: "2016. These are my ideas ... We have six [votes] so if we have four teams want to do that that's ten. There's 18 votes so that's the majority."


    When asked if he is contemplating a return to V8s or even V10s, Ecclestone replied: "It's up to them [the teams]."

    But Ecclestone hopes any change will retain some of the positive aspects of the current power units and would be formally branded as hybrids to emphasise that fact.

    "We can all put our money together and have a wager that Mercedes will win the championship next year which is not really the sort of thing we are looking for. I have been proposing and am going to propose that we go back to a normally aspirated engine with some hybrid bits built into it.

    "The manufacturers will have to call it a 'McLaren hybrid', 'Ferrari hybrid' or a Williams hybrid' so that it will get across the message. They are hybrids now but nobody tells anybody. It's the best-kept secret actually. What this engine is for. What was it designed for and what have we achieved? It is a fantastic bit of engineering.

    "People have built these racing engines and anyone that is currently building the engines we currently have, it would be a bit of a dream for them to build a normally aspirated engine and develop it to about 1000 horsepower which is what I believe we want."


    Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/s...tcHl1ARkhUU.99

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    Good to see that the cost savings are so close to the heart of Mr Ecclestone. A brand new engine layout every two to three years.
    "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."

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    Α ferrari car with better sound than current f1 engines.....


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Harley View Post
    Good to see that the cost savings are so close to the heart of Mr Ecclestone. A brand new engine layout every two to three years.
    Indeed LOL. After only two seasons and millions of Euros wasted on developing these V6 turbos... Bernie simply decides: "yea, that's enough, let's just go back to V8s and put even more money into the development of new engines". Brilliant thinking! Massive cost savings are taking place in F1.

    I would love if F1 would someday go back to NA V8s or even V10s but considering all this money saving and cost cutting mantra, which is unfortunately an essential part of F1 these days, it would seem really weird and hypocritical if already by 2016 all cars would be running with brand new V8s.
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    Don't think Bernie has really been banging the cost saving drum, compared to the FIA.

    But how about we set the rules to be the same for 10 years or so, no new cars no need for wind tunnels, testing, designers etc would that suit the "cost saving" party? How much do teams spend on aero and car design compared to the engine, anyone know???
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    It would be disaster for manufacturers.
    The only problem I see is lack of power unit noises. Surely there is some way to increase it. There is no need for entirely new engines.
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    I don't see any team except Ferrari and RedBull want to change power unit.

    plus I believe as soon as Renault or Ferrari solved their power unit problems, there will be no complain.
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    Bernie annoys the hell out me.

    He has always hated turbos, F1 is about the manufacturers not him.
    How about the teams get to run whatever engine platform they want, but I guarantee that just like in the 80's, 90% of teams would run turbo anyway.

    You would not reliably get 1000hp from a N/A v8 or 10 with the 5 engine rule. Even if they could, the turbo motor will still have much more torque and be way more entertaining to watch from a sideways point of view.

    Personally I think in 2016 that they should run the same motor but twin turbo at 1000hp. The motors are already built for that but detuned to the power limit.

    Twin turbo would increase the noise levels to needing earplugs again, especially if they can run 1000hp.

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    I think we should get rid of rev limits and engine penalties. Let them have more than five PUs for the season to start with. After all weak teams are still not surviving even with this new'cost saving' formula.
    A friend of mine who went to monza told me the gp2 cars sounded better, that's embarrasing something needs to improve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AfterLife View Post
    It would be disaster for manufacturers.
    The only problem I see is lack of power unit noises. Surely there is some way to increase it. There is no need for entirely new engines.
    There is one way to increase the noise is increasing the Rev Limit. I agree with this Bernie lost his mind. its shame to have new engines after all the work and money put on V6's.
    If any thing let all manufacturers develop the engines for 2 or 3 years with changing the freeze rules that will make all engines more or less same. Need Noise why not on earth increase the Rev limit to 22K the V8 max rev. Let the manufacturers to manage it with their efficiency. Change the Fuel flow limit and Give more fuel tank. Job done, If still a team is ahead then it is due to their development and others failure. 2 Years is more than enough for all manufacturers to get the parity in my view.
    Going to NA's is only a killer for Manufacturers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alesi1 View Post
    I think we should get rid of rev limits and engine penalties. Let them have more than five PUs for the season to start with. After all weak teams are still not surviving even with this new'cost saving' formula.
    A friend of mine who went to monza told me the gp2 cars sounded better, that's embarrasing something needs to improve.
    I think teams need to have Restriction on how many PU's they can use per year or else big teams like Ferrari , Mclaren , RBR , Merc will turn up with new engine every race that would take out contention of others due to the mega budget. 8 Engines per year will be enough and for that the Cost of V6 must be reduced.
    I read some where long time ago kinda like 5 or 6 months where the 8*V8's is even less than 5*V6's package so for smaller teams if they used more that cost more. The more we dig the more mess we see in this rules
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sriharsha View Post
    There is one way to increase the noise is increasing the Rev Limit.
    Um..........No !! The 80's turbo monsters were revving to 12.5k max and they were loud !! Mind you they were running 5 bar plus in quali (75+ psi) so you are right that the fuel flow needs to be raised. But also they were twin turbo with external wastegates = 2 exhausts and 2 screamer pipes from the wastegates = lots of noise.

    In 1986 this was good for between 800-1200hp+ !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by izybluffen View Post
    Um..........No !! The 80's turbo monsters were revving to 12.5k max and they were loud !! Mind you they were running 5 bar plus in quali (75+ psi) so you are right that the fuel flow needs to be raised. But also they were twin turbo with external wastegates = 2 exhausts and 2 screamer pipes from the wastegates = lots of noise.

    In 1986 this was good for between 800-1200hp+ !!
    Turbo Position is what eating the sound to spool itself up. If you have to increase the sound you need to put more energy via revs such that we can hear more sound and turbo also have enough energy to run itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AfterLife View Post
    I don't see any team except Ferrari and RedBull want to change power unit.

    plus I believe as soon as Renault or Ferrari solved their power unit problems, there will be no complain.
    You'd be surprised... I think the smaller teams have already spoken out against this as they were forced into this whole era.

    Montezemolo, although happy with the V6, warned these fools as far back as 2012 about the rushed introduction of these engines and that it would lead to small teams struggling due to costs but he was laughed off as being a dinosaur. Well, here we are folks, the sport at a crossroads with Mercedes refusing to compromise on development and threatening to quit should the engine formula change.

    I think the best thing is to revert back to the V8's because given the current regulations Mercedes will not be caught and anybody hoping that Honda can make interesting is living in lala land. They are that far ahead when they actually decide to stretch their legs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hush View Post
    You'd be surprised... I think the smaller teams have already spoken out against this as they were forced into this whole era.
    Among 6 teams *Mercedes, Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Lotus*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hush View Post
    You'd be surprised... I think the smaller teams have already spoken out against this as they were forced into this whole era.
    Among 6 teams *Mercedes, Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Lotus*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hush View Post
    You'd be surprised... I think the smaller teams have already spoken out against this as they were forced into this whole era.

    Montezemolo, although happy with the V6, warned these fools as far back as 2012 about the rushed introduction of these engines and that it would lead to small teams struggling due to costs but he was laughed off as being a dinosaur. Well, here we are folks, the sport at a crossroads with Mercedes refusing to compromise on development and threatening to quit should the engine formula change.

    I think the best thing is to revert back to the V8's because given the current regulations Mercedes will not be caught and anybody hoping that Honda can make interesting is living in lala land. They are that far ahead when they actually decide to stretch their legs.
    Montezemolo was not happy with V6, he was really UNhappy with V4 and just pushed against that and we ended up with V6.
    V6 was what Mercedes wanted all along and worked really hard for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    Montezemolo was not happy with V6, he was really UNhappy with V4 and just pushed against that and we ended up with V6.
    V6 was what Mercedes wanted all along and worked really hard for it.
    And..... We are the ones with the veto power but didn't do anything about it. Atleast we could have postponed it until we had confidence in our PU.

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    im really looking forward for December 18th and im sure it will be a bernie flop show only. No Manufacturer want to go back to Older Engines even we are, All we have to do is opening up a way in regulations and if we can take out or negate Mercedes advantage in engine department and open development through out season.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    Montezemolo was not happy with V6, he was really UNhappy with V4 and just pushed against that and we ended up with V6.
    V6 was what Mercedes wanted all along and worked really hard for it.
    Actually Ferrari were happy with the original turbo. It was supposed to be a 4 cylinder, twin turbo direct gas injected power unit. Ferrari CEO is on record confirming that. It was Mercedes that agitated for the change - and their concern wasn't the number of cylinders, they wanted to create a heavy dependency on hybrid power - their great strength. Near the start of this season Mercedes board member let the car out of the bag that they had the attitude of "do it our way our we will leave f1".

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    Dec.16 (GMM) Mercedes is reportedly ready to compromise amid the engine regulations dispute.

    Backed by struggling Ferrari and Renault, F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone is so concerned about the current turbo V6 rules that at Thursday's Strategy Group meeting he will vote to repeal them for 2016.
    He rails against the noise, the cost and the complexity, but his major issue is that the regulations as they stand could mean Mercedes' huge competitive advantage is not tracked down even by 2020.

    "We can all put our money together and have a wager that Mercedes will win the championship next year which is not really the sort of thing we are looking for," he told reporters including Forbes' Christian Sylt in London last week.

    The latest situation has arisen after rivals Ferrari and Renault tried to get Mercedes to agree to relaxing the so-called engine development 'freeze' for 2015. Those efforts failed, and so Mercedes is now facing the prospect of having the regulations scrapped completely for 2016 by being out-voted at the Strategy Group. "Well we (Formula One Management) have six (votes) so if we have four teams want to do that, that's ten. There's 18 votes so that's the majority," said Ecclestone.

    According to Germany's Sport Bild, the situation is giving Mercedes - who have said a wholesale regulation change could cause them to quit F1 - pause for thought.

    The publication said it has learned that Mercedes is contemplating a compromise solution.

    "Mercedes insiders have already indicated that they would supply their highly-complex and extremely successful hybrid system - without the basic V6 turbo - to the competition.

    "That way, the current regulations could be maintained without the opponents fearing years of Mercedes dominance," revealed correspondents Ralf Bach and Bianca Garloff.

    The report said the proposal of a standard, Mercedes-supplied hybrid system would be not unlike the standard McLaren-supplied electronic control units that are already deployed by every F1 team up and down the grid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bondilad View Post
    Dec.16 (GMM) Mercedes is reportedly ready to compromise amid the engine regulations dispute.

    Backed by struggling Ferrari and Renault, F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone is so concerned about the current turbo V6 rules that at Thursday's Strategy Group meeting he will vote to repeal them for 2016.
    He rails against the noise, the cost and the complexity, but his major issue is that the regulations as they stand could mean Mercedes' huge competitive advantage is not tracked down even by 2020.

    "We can all put our money together and have a wager that Mercedes will win the championship next year which is not really the sort of thing we are looking for," he told reporters including Forbes' Christian Sylt in London last week.

    The latest situation has arisen after rivals Ferrari and Renault tried to get Mercedes to agree to relaxing the so-called engine development 'freeze' for 2015. Those efforts failed, and so Mercedes is now facing the prospect of having the regulations scrapped completely for 2016 by being out-voted at the Strategy Group. "Well we (Formula One Management) have six (votes) so if we have four teams want to do that, that's ten. There's 18 votes so that's the majority," said Ecclestone.

    According to Germany's Sport Bild, the situation is giving Mercedes - who have said a wholesale regulation change could cause them to quit F1 - pause for thought.

    The publication said it has learned that Mercedes is contemplating a compromise solution.

    "Mercedes insiders have already indicated that they would supply their highly-complex and extremely successful hybrid system - without the basic V6 turbo - to the competition.

    "That way, the current regulations could be maintained without the opponents fearing years of Mercedes dominance," revealed correspondents Ralf Bach and Bianca Garloff.

    The report said the proposal of a standard, Mercedes-supplied hybrid system would be not unlike the standard McLaren-supplied electronic control units that are already deployed by every F1 team up and down the grid.
    I don't like this idea at all. In my opinion it will be a loss for both Ferrari and Renault in the development battle and Mercedes will be taking part in every success made by the others.
    All I'm hoping for is that the voting goes in favor of a twin turbo v6 engines with basic KERS system, in such way the cars will maintain their HYBRID nature and we all know that Turbo is the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bondilad View Post
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    "Mercedes insiders have already indicated that they would supply their highly-complex and extremely successful hybrid system - without the basic V6 turbo - to the competition.
    .
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    There is no way Renault or Ferrari are going to accept this. It is humiliating. IMO Mercedes will play with ideas and suggestions unitl the end of 2015 to just postponed in season powerunit developments and then suddenly will accept in season powerunit developments for 2016. In this case Mercedes will keep its advantage for 2015, 2016 and 2017.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AfterLife View Post
    There is no way Renault or Ferrari are going to accept this. It is humiliating. IMO Mercedes will play with ideas and suggestions unitl the end of 2015 to just postponed in season powerunit developments and then suddenly will accept in season powerunit developments for 2016. In this case Mercedes will keep its advantage for 2015, 2016 and 2017.
    Good point.

    Merc would only make suggestions if they know they can retain their advantage . Remember the illegal tyre test, they themselves came up with the penalty they should receive. What a joke.

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    Only four engines for 2015.

    And Mr Ecclestone is still pushing a completely new engine for 2016.

    http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/f...r-9129184.html

    https://translate.google.com/transla...r-9129184.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJTaurus View Post
    Α ferrari car with better sound than current f1 engines.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pnZG60R4FU
    Beautiful video and the sound is amazing.

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