F1 Strategy Group calls for investigation into overtaking in races

[Rob]

Formula 1's technical chiefs have been tasked by the Strategy Group to increase opportunities for overtaking in grands prix, AUTOSPORT has learned.

F1 is currently looking to improve the show in 2017 with the introduction of cars five seconds per lap faster, more aggressive looking with wider front and rear wings and fatter rear tyres, and potentially with 1000bhp engines.

The FIA has yet to formulate a set of regulations for 2017, which is causing a number of technical directors concern given the rules have to be in place by March of next year, beyond which they cannot be altered.

Now the Strategy Group has added to the workload by calling for a review of overtaking, and potential ideas on how the number of moves in a race can be increased, with a meeting set for August 18 ahead of the Belgian Grand Prix.

Force India technical director Andrew Green told AUTOSPORT: "Recently we've had a directive from the Strategy Group that they want to improve the overtaking.

"It's something we've not yet discussed. There was supposed to have been a meeting before the summer break, but that was postponed, and it's now the Tuesday before Spa.

"All I can say is the design we have on the table [for 2017] is not necessarily something that would cover that."

Green explained that the way F1 cars generate downforce could need an overhaul.

"At the moment we're still very dependent on the front of the car generating downforce for the whole car," he said.

"The effect of that is as a car approaches the one in front it doesn't just lose downforce from the front of the car, but the whole of the car, so maybe that's something we will be looking at in the next meeting.

"Is that something we can do something about, or is that a function of the cars as they are? That's what I expect to be discussing."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120277

[Rob]

Looking at things that are not the BIG issues in the sport.

Take off alot of the turning vanes, and little "little flick ups" off the front wing. Allow alot more engine development to get the engines all roughly in the same park to go racing.

Anyway, thought the pass flaps, sorry DRS was bought in to help aid overtaking (take a talent away from drivers, "spice up the show" its a sport not a show)

[wisepie]

There is too much emphasis on aero meaning that cars can't get close enough to each other without losing downforce, the DRS makes it artificial when they do overtake, so I think I'm agreeing with you, Rob!

[TigerKing]

The solution is too simple for FIA to see. Replace Aerodynamic downforce with Underside downforce. You get the same cornering capabilities without dirty air. The size of the underside has to be regulated to not produce too much downforce though.

[abbottcostello]

Well, I am certainly no aerodynamic expert, but if we take away a lot of those little gizmos won't we be slowing the cars in corners, ultimately increasing lap times? Do we want better battles at the expense of the speed we pride our sport on?

I honestly don't have a clear cut opinion on what they could or should try to increase overtaking. Really not sure you can make an F1 car immune to dirty air, I drive a brick (1986 Landcruiser) & at freeway speeds I can feel the effects when closely following another vehicle. No simple solutions here.

[Hornet]

Well, I am certainly no aerodynamic expert, but if we take away a lot of those little gizmos won't we be slowing the cars in corners, ultimately increasing lap times? Do we want better battles at the expense of the speed we pride our sport on?

I honestly don't have a clear cut opinion on what they could or should try to increase overtaking. Really not sure you can make an F1 car immune to dirty air, I drive a brick (1986 Landcruiser) & at freeway speeds I can feel the effects when closely following another vehicle. No simple solutions here.

That's true, but I think it could be improved by changing the fundamental idea of how they produce downforce. Right now it's mostly generated by the front and rear wing, and a limited amount by ground effect from the diffuser which is very small today due to regulation changes. A lot of the turbulence are due to the rear wing and wheel which cannot be help. Otherwise, F1 cars are designed to generate as little turbulence as possible as turbulence slows the car down due to drag.

So IMO, by switching to using ground effect more instead of the wings, we can potentially improve the situation because the front wing is more susceptible to dirty air than ground effect. Ground effect produce downforce through the entire car's body.

Ground effect could also generate a huge amount of downforce if we used shaped floors as they did in the 70s. Back then the wings are very small because it's shaped floor already generate most of the downforce. If we do that, we can reduce the amount of turbulence generated by the car as we would reduce the size of rear wing. So, having a less susceptible method of creating downforce, and having less turbulence as well, I think it could potentially be the solution.

Only problem I see is that the smaller teams may veto the idea due to cost reason, as it would take a huge redesign of the car.

[Tony]

I know I'm in the minority and most would consider it blasphemy, but secretly, I wish F1 would eventually allow AWD... more and more road cars are AWD and I would love to see more work done on that area to increase horsepower at the wheels... I know there are other sports for that, but would love to see what the best and brightest minds of F1 could do to advance that technology...

[TigerKing]

Only problem I see is that the smaller teams may veto the idea due to cost reason, as it would take a huge redesign of the car.

You're right about that but the small teams are wrong. It would cost a lot of money up front but within 2 years or so, ground effect would be significantly cheaper than aerodynamic downforce. Imagine the millions of dollars teams like Red Bull and Ferrari spend on discovering those stupid little winglets that smaller teams like Force India and Sauber cannot afford. If only teams started thinking about the long term future rather than short term greed...

[Brembo]

I agree that HP is what gets you on pole. And the HP to get the jump at the start to get those seconds ahead. Clean fast pits, and you won.

[abbottcostello]

I know I'm in the minority and most would consider it blasphemy, but secretly, I wish F1 would eventually allow AWD... more and more road cars are AWD and I would love to see more work done on that area to increase horsepower at the wheels... I know there are other sports for that, but would love to see what the best and brightest minds of F1 could do to advance that technology...

Now that would be fun!

You're right about that but the small teams are wrong. It would cost a lot of money up front but within 2 years or so, ground effect would be significantly cheaper than aerodynamic downforce. Imagine the millions of dollars teams like Red Bull and Ferrari spend on discovering those stupid little winglets that smaller teams like Force India and Sauber cannot afford. If only teams started thinking about the long term future rather than short term greed...

I think the small teams are thinking about short term survival more than greed.

[Winter]

What ever you decide in the F1 tragedy group, do not create any more artificiality to the sport

[Grinsomx]

by 2020, the rules will include turn signals and politely asking the other driver to pass...
this sport needs a rule freeze and a lot less FIA interference.

[impactX]

How about start letting the teams test again so that other teams can actually overtake Mercedes for once without artificial interference?

[Nova]

Didnt the teams used to use a form of traction control for awhile?
If u look at the cars say from 98 thru 2004..Not sure when it was, but Im sure someone
here knows. I did like the way the cars looked then a heck of a lot better than now.
If they used TC, wouldnt it allow less aero aids all over the car?

[Nand0Nand0]

First of all, I think it is a huge mistake to make overtaking easier. What I think F1 needs to focus on is to enable drivers to battle for position. The overtake itself shouldn't be easy - and that's one of the problems I have with F1 today. Watching a "highway" overtake where the guy in front is reduced to a sitting duck is totally unsatisfying for me.

One problem we have now, with the tires we have and the focus on fuel conservation means drivers and teams bottle out of a fight for position to save something - this should be anathema to F1.

We've slowed cars down, and removed avenues of innovation to keep struggling non-competitive teams on track.

If I had the magic wand for the next gen of regulations, I'd be far less concerned with the minutia and be far more concerned with removing and reducing all regulations to an absolute minimum.

[Brembo]

Didnt the teams used to use a form of traction control for awhile?
If u look at the cars say from 98 thru 2004..Not sure when it was, but Im sure someone
here knows. I did like the way the cars looked then a heck of a lot better than now.
If they used TC, wouldnt it allow less aero aids all over the car?

Traction control F1 is a tough subject to talk about , even today. Launch cont. Traction cont. was banned in 1994. Only Ferrari came out clean when the comp. controls were impounded by FIA. Shumacher's Benetton [ B194 ] was still using Launch & Trac. control illegally. At the time the big bosses at Benetton were none other than Ross Brawn Byrne and last but not least Flavio Briatori! Ayrton till the end insisted Schumacher his team were cheating. I doubt either launc or TC. will ever come back to use without controversy.

[Rob]

Traction control F1 is a tough subject to talk about , even today. Launch cont. Traction cont. was banned in 1994. Only Ferrari came out clean when the comp. controls were impounded by FIA. Shumacher's Benetton [ B194 ] was still using Launch & Trac. control illegally. At the time the big bosses at Benetton were none other than Ross Brawn Byrne and last but not least Flavio Briatori! Ayrton till the end insisted Schumacher his team were cheating. I doubt either launc or TC. will ever come back to use without controversy.

LMP1s use TC, alot of modern day road cars have TC in aswell.

[Tobes]

Traction control F1 is a tough subject to talk about , even today. Launch cont. Traction cont. was banned in 1994. Only Ferrari came out clean when the comp. controls were impounded by FIA. Shumacher's Benetton [ B194 ] was still using Launch & Trac. control illegally. At the time the big bosses at Benetton were none other than Ross Brawn Byrne and last but not least Flavio Briatori! Ayrton till the end insisted Schumacher his team were cheating. I doubt either launc or TC. will ever come back to use without controversy.

You say that like it's fact, but that was never actually proven, it was alleged that the engine mapping gave them a kind of TC, at some point in 1994 (I think after Imola) Ferrari, Benetton and McLaren all had to provide their tech data, Ferrari did so immediately but Benetton and McLaren both stalled, one can assume there was something going on, but in the end there was insufficient evidence that either Benetton or McLaren were using an illegal engine map, but the Benetton Ford engine was running without a fuel filter (or an illegal one, I can't remember exactly) so it gave them a clear advantage as the fuel flow was not as restricted as in the competition cars...

Edit... just googled it as couldn't remember, it was the fuel valve in the fuel rig that was illegal, not in the car, this allowed Benetton to fuel the car during a pit stop 12.5% faster than the other teams...

[Rob]

You say that like it's fact, but that was never actually proven, it was alleged that the engine mapping gave them a kind of TC, at some point in 1994 (I think after Imola) Ferrari, Benetton and McLaren all had to provide their tech data, Ferrari did so immediately but Benetton and McLaren both stalled, one can assume there was something going on, but in the end there was insufficient evidence that either Benetton or McLaren were using an illegal engine map, but the Benetton Ford engine was running without a fuel filter (or an illegal one, I can't remember exactly) so it gave them a clear advantage as the fuel flow was not as restricted as in the competition cars...

Edit... just googled it as couldn't remember, it was the fuel valve in the fuel rig that was illegal, not in the car, this allowed Benetton to fuel the car during a pit stop 12.5% faster than the other teams...

The good old days of "shadow wars" in F1.

[Nova]

I agree w/Nando0 is saying..I watched a race today from 97...Loved how the cars looked and ran...And sounded.
Im afraid we will never see F1 like that again. Its hard to tell who the really good drivers are of the new crop..
Especially if they make the cars faster. Im wondering how long I will have to endure this form of F1 b4 they make changes that will actually make F1, F1 again. Im afraid the people running the show r out of touch..
Im really enjoying F2 and WEC.

[Brembo]

You say that like it's fact, but that was never actually proven, it was alleged that the engine mapping gave them a kind of TC, at some point in 1994 (I think after Imola) Ferrari, Benetton and McLaren all had to provide their tech data, Ferrari did so immediately but Benetton and McLaren both stalled, one can assume there was something going on, but in the end there was insufficient evidence that either Benetton or McLaren were using an illegal engine map, but the Benetton Ford engine was running without a fuel filter (or an illegal one, I can't remember exactly) so it gave them a clear advantage as the fuel flow was not as restricted as in the competition cars...

Edit... just googled it as couldn't remember, it was the fuel valve in the fuel rig that was illegal, not in the car, this allowed Benetton to fuel the car during a pit stop 12.5% faster than the other teams...

Flavio & Co. stalled IMO long enough to erase any tech. computor trace & so on. So as you say they got away do to insufficient evidence. Ayrton was sure they were cheating and said so openly. I believed him then and now. Ok , Flavio proved later to be an upstanding figure in F1, but all others involved at the time IMO were slippery characters to say the least.

[Senna4Ever]

Difficult topic
I mean we all want action ... but not too much that someone might get hurt ...
We want unpredictable races and more competitors racing against ... but this would mean all have the same ability to make development and research. But that is not possible as it is cost intensive.

and on aerodynamic side F1 has developed so fast and has already reached a level where it is hard to go back to where it was in the late 80ies and early 90ies.
Same for all the electronical and IT related gimmicks: I think we are too deep in that already to make an easy cut ...

Bring back the in season test would make already a big step forward i guess. Look at MotoGP, without the possibility to test and the chance to change the setup, Marques would be nowhere this year, but they had the chance to test and change a lot and got back on track again. It would be sufficient (I guess) if this in season test would take place on the week after a grand prix exactly where raced the weekend before. Everything is there so no travel costs ... from year to year the circuits where those tests take place changes ... or rotates.

[Tobes]

Flavio & Co. stalled IMO long enough to erase any tech. computor trace & so on. So as you say they got away do to insufficient evidence. Ayrton was sure they were cheating and said so openly. I believed him then and now. Ok , Flavio proved later to be an upstanding figure in F1, but all others involved at the time IMO were slippery characters to say the least.

That may be the case, I don't know, we're all very aware of Flavio's dubious moral compass, as was demonstrated in Singapore '08..!
I remember Ayrton constantly bemoaning Schumi's Benetton claiming it had a form of TC, he went to Sir Frank and Patrick and repeatedly asked them to protest the Benetton, but neither Frank or Patrick thought there was anything wrong and refused Ayrtons repeated requests, I understand where you're coming from, but i'm more inclined to believe Frank and Patrick over a very annoyed and indignant Ayrton who couldn't (wouldn't) believe Schumi was better than him in that car...
F1 in the mid 90's was full of upstanding slippery characters, but Verstappen's Benetton was no threat to Ayrton so he didn't worry about him, it may be that Schumi was simply that good and Ayrton just couldn't accept that, history has kind of demonstrated that may have been the case...
Ultimately we'll probably never know the whole truth, I would guess it lies somewhere between both our opinions...

[Brembo]

Tobes, I couldn't agree with you more. Opinions and love of F1 is why we fans gather here. I have to believe as far as Ayrton, between Prost and then the young Michael he had competition and then some ! And as we both agree, from lets say Benetton1994 to 2008 Flavio never let up. I'll always have my doubts, especially because Ayrton was my favorite at the time.