i hear you my friend. so this engine has gone to heaven hope it gets a second chance up there
Full Member
i hear you my friend. so this engine has gone to heaven hope it gets a second chance up there
Tifoso since Gilles!
Some say a valve, others an injector.Originally Posted by djmorin27
An engine cannot be fixed using reliability reasons (there are no reliability 'tokens').
On reliability basis you can only modify the design for the remaining unrun engines, what's difficult (almost impossible?) is to do it before China to avoid running a new unmodified engine with the same weakeness.
Edit: The Italian version of Motorsport (F1 Omnicorse) posted an article regarding the problem, it says it was an escape valve failure, but that was the effect and not the cause. Allegedly a problem with the electroincs caused an extreme situations at which the valve failed. It occured when Seb was running at very low revs, a situation not found during the race.
The engine is no recoverable and a new identical engine will be used in China (note: With a new software version, I hope)
http://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/fer...-causa-685163/
Last edited by gvera; 6th April 2016 at 13:59.
<_< | ^_^
Personally I feel we have set ourself a wrong target this season. Don't get me wrong, I would like us to fight for WDC and CWC. But, for me the priority this season should have been to build the fastest car during the season. Forget the PU penalties, gearbox penalties, I would be happy, if we are the fastest car, even if that means starting at the back of the grid, or even from pitlane for that matter. Ferrari have been 2nd too long, they have to get the team develop the fastest car over the season, and the benchmark car from the start of the season will follow. If they can't over the season, make changes necessary to the respective departments, and continue to evolve the team. WDC and CWC can wait.
F1 show biz 2016 :
Toto - "Ferrari are a real threat" .... Nico - "Awesome, everything is just awesome" .....Lulu - "Mental strength man, lifestyle man, I'll drive at 400% as ever man".... and then suddenly a wild Bull out of nowhere slams into a Ferrari.
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I mentioned this previously, but on Fox Asia's coverage, they did a terrific video comparison of Hamilton's epic pole lap in qualifying. What was most interesting, was that Kimi was actually faster through T5, 6 & 7. These are high speed areo and shows that we are not only a match for Merc but we were actually better than them there. I wouldn't concede too much ground to Merc in the aero department.
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Thanks for the info.just gutted what do the rest of you think will be there course of action going forward regarding being down a engine so soon dam wouldn't be so bad if it happend after four.do u think they would take a 6th.need to see what the last 4 or 5 tracks are and see ware a 10 spot drop wouldn't hurt so much
Tifoso since Gilles!
This year you can follow that path only on the engine department, with diffrent tyres, cars widths, different aero rules, etc. in 2017, the chasis/aero of the 2017 project will be different to the 2016 car.
Tifoso since Gilles!
You may say we're a match in downforce, but what about drag?
Is the better top speed of the Mercedes all because of more power or a combination of more power/less drag?
Full Member
It's a really good question and I can't give a definitive answer.
My suspicion, or perhaps what I want to believe is the current team under JA would not be "buying" cheaper df at the cost of drag. I also don't think we have come anywhere near to cranking our PU up to the max yet.
Full Member
It's impossible that they will use a new software. They already tried with a new CE in Bahrain. If they use a new software, it will be already the 3rd CE out of 5
Full Member
Nice Explanation !
Translated from Italian language, not from Myself but Google
ECHNICAL: even the SF16-H FERRARI has now BUTTON MAGIC!
By The PJ Wednesday, April 6th, 2016 13 comments:
We quickly reached the second Grand Prix of the F1 world championship in 2016 and to the chagrin of many fans of the red as well as for lovers of sporting competitions in general, we saw a Ferrari that has not fulfilled the expectations for the time being declared by Sergio Marchionne. The SF16-H, despite being a very competitive car, for now has not really managed to trouble the W07 Hybrid, though, especially in the first Grand Prix of the season, Sebastian Vettel has risked the bang. But it must emphasize that the whole is born of a very critical starting duo Mercedes, which still is part of the sport.
Scuderia Ferrari: the qualification is still a problem, but it is the race that cares!
By analyzing the two key parts of the first two weekends of this Formula 1 2016, namely qualifying and the race, it could be argued that the most important gap between the SF16-H and W07 Hybrid is present in qualifying. But the reliability problems to the power unit, which led to a weakening in many stages of the race of the Grand Prix of Australia and Bahrain, are worrying, and not just the technicians of the Italian team. If in 2015, in Maranello you could be sure to arrive on Sunday, with a smaller gap from Mercedes compared to Saturday's qualifying, now this certainty is no longer so present. Let us see why.
MERCEDES W07: the tough magic button even more!
We know that at that Stuttgart have played an extraordinary work of the whole car and especially the department AMG has developed a Power Unit is exceptional (leaving aside all the controversy on the political benefits and early knowledge of FIA Regulations, okay the Germans rightly give thanks dear marpione Ross); a drive unit that can really push a lot, especially when that is actuated, which has been christened as "magic button."
In Mercedes, since last world championship of Formula 1 had set a configuration "hyper racing" on board its cars, allowing the drivers to have a surplus of power to be used sporadically to make turns in "missile" mode.
This surplus power was available last season for a total of about sixty km passable with an hourly average of 200 km / h and about 12-13 laps on tracks with journey length of around 5 km. But in the winter past Mercedes he has been working on the lifetime of this powerful BOOST which provides about 35 hp (a little bit less in the race, as we were told) more to the Power Unit in qualifying, managing to increase it, as picked up by F1AnalisiTecnica, 50%; now the autonomy of particularly aggressive mapping is 90 km (nearly 1/3 of the race), estimated at approximately 17-18 laps on tracks with journey length of around 5 km.
The BOOST increases HORSES the endothermic part of the Power Unit
And 'appropriate to start by saying that the power increase is related to the part of the HEAT Power Unit: so let's see what are the components that increase the horsepower generated by the MCI.
Surely the increase of power, in addition to a dedicated mapping, derived from the turbine-compressor supercharging group or better still from the level of the combustion air pressure. Before assessing how it can be achieved this overboost Mercedes go over the operation of the supercharging system through turbocharger.
The turbocharger is a supercharging system composed of two distinct thermal engines, compressor and turbine, keyed on the same shaft and, therefore, integral with each other during operation. The exhaust gases from the heat engine exhaust manifolds radially invest the impeller of the turbine, by putting it into rotation, thus yielding part of the kinetic energy of the gases themselves, and then along the path drawn from the exhaust pipe until the release into the atmosphere.
The mass in rotation of the turbine causes the mass in rotation of the compressor that is seen dragged from the first thermal machine.
The in the compressor inlet air is drawn axially and compressed to then be sent to intercooler cooling (it is recalled that each compression causes the heating of the compressed fluid) from which you will eventually get combustion air under pressure and "fresh" available to the internal combustion engine.
It is evident that the higher the rotation of the turbine system, and therefore also that of the compressor, and the higher will be the value of the pressure at which the air is compressed. It is important to emphasize that the rotation of the turbine system is strictly dependent on the flow rate of exhaust gas that invest the same; therefore, also the level of pressure generated depends on the flow of the exhaust gas.
To avoid structural mechanical problems, that jointly to thermal stress, (the gas that invest the turbine are about 850 ° C) can lead to breakage of the supercharging system, it restricts the rotation speed (and therefore the compression pressure of 'combustion air) by simply creating a by-pass to the exhaust gases; which, beyond a predetermined pressure threshold and regulated through the wastegate valve (valve responsible for this process by-pass) not invest more the impeller of the thermal machine but are conveyed directly to the discharge.
It is evident that the adjustment of the valve wastegate is critical to determine at which pressure value to operate the heat engine (and establish the output power) and the rotation speed of the turbocharger group to which obviously is associated with the rotation speed (and therefore the flow electricity) of the MGU-H electrical system.
The increase of the supercharging pressure is via the electric motor MGU-H
It would seem easy to conclude that the famous "magic button" Mercedes can act on the westegate valve adjustment by moving the valve opening limit values of higher pressures. This would allow to increase the number of revolutions of the TC group and consequently increase the boost pressure of the combustion air input to the MCI. In this case the heat engine would develop definitely higher powers but would have a greater rotation speed than that at which they are operating the PU currently. To achieve a significant increase of power (at least twenty horses) in fact arise the need to operate with rotational speeds of the heat engine definitely exceed 13000 rev / min, in order to ensure flow of the exhaust gases sufficient to raise the rotation speed of the turbine. Since this does not occur (because of the constancy of the flow rate of fuel in excess of 10500 rev / min) We can not attribute the overboost of the magic button to the simple westegate of the valve adjustment.
If we assume that the maximum speed of the thermal engine remains unchanged between the overboost configuration and the standard configuration, also assuming that the management of the number of revolutions of the turbine-compressor supercharging is made independent group (partially) from the exhaust gas flow and that it is instead handled by the electrical component MGU-H.
Off-electric absorption, then with the MGU-H functioning as a motor, the rotation of the TC group can be managed to generate combustion air pressures higher than the standard operation equal to the heat engine rotation speed (therefore with gas flow drain which alone would not make possible the rotation of the CT system obtainable in this configuration).
All this translates into an increase in power delivered by the internal combustion engine to equal number of laps, a dispensing curve shifted to a power level higher than the standard.
A second important aspect to consider is the power available to implement this type of strategy. It is very important to consider that the recoverable energy from the MGU-H system is unlimited (unlike the one recovered from the MGU-K system limited to 2 MJ / rev) but at the same time the energy stored in the batteries can not exceed 4 MJ / lap difference between minimum and maximum loads of the storage system. The result is that in addition to reliability problems, there is a problem linked to the accumulation limit of electrical energy, which must therefore be handled with the best possible strategy. Use the BOOST during the qualifying than in the race (this is also why we are able to generate slightly less CV) is much simpler because in qualifying you can leave the pits with fresh batteries and return with batteries. While in the race it is more complicated, and requires a really efficient Power Unit as regards the recovery of energy through MGU-K (ers) and above the other electric motor, called MGU-H (eat). It seems that the Germans, even very strong performance electrical components, already in 2014 have joined the efficiency of the electricity recovery using the same smart.
Bahrain also SF16-H FERRARI used the "BUTTON MAGIC!"
For those who last year had wondered why other teams like Ferrari, do not they adopted a system of "magic button" in-house Mercedes, we can answer that it all had to be born from the original design of the Power Unit and the changes necessary to avoid compromising the engines during operation in overboost would be too great to be dealt with.
Finally, since the middle of last season, in Maranello had started working on the new Power Unit 2016, also focusing development on this particular use of the electric generator MGU-H and BOOST mode to be exploited at least for the first half of the season especially in qualifying, because it was there where the SF15-T was paying much gap against the W06 Hybrid.
And finally in Bahrain, officially debuted on SF16-H the magic button made in Maranello. Mapping which is not yet in the most aggressive version, as to what we have been told, the increase in power stood around to "only" 20 hp (and there is still margin).
FERRARI SF16-H: 3:00 to 4:00 tenths Bahrain but only for two laps!
As far as we know, the onset of this particular mapping remained in doubt until the last, because the technicians of the Italian team after the fail of the turbine in the first Grand Prix of the season, they were not sure that the new power unit could bear this increase performance; in fact, they are linked, as previously written, the boost pressure of the turbocharger group, the real problem of the Italian new drive unit.
In fact, is the turbocharger group that technicians of the Italian team are working very hard now for a few weeks; problem then unfortunately has a direct impact on the hybrid part of the new Italian Power Unit.
At Maranello last winter a choice was made: to be able to maximize the power unit endothermic has opted for a large blower, produced externally by Honeywell supplier. Apparently, however, the size of that was incorrect and the current problems linked to the turbine are many and important. Having a very large turbine means having a big effect called "turbo lag" or "turbo lag". Then starting from the low and mid range, current Formula 1 turbocharged V6 engines to solve the big problem of turbo lag is used, thanks all'MGU-H which acts as a motor, the energy stored in the battery that helps put the right range of operation in terms of rotation of the turbine speed. But this energy, formerly recovered, it is as if "wasted", since otherwise it could be downloaded in the form of CV through the other electric motor, the MGU-K.
E 'for this reason, ie to preserve the integrity of the turbocharger, the engineers of the Italian team did not want to exceed the number of kilometers performed with the particular very aggressive mapping. Vettel and Raikkonen in fact, have been able to enjoy the new BOOST, built in Bahrain thanks to a new software, for just two laps then only about 10 km.
Raikkonen raced weakened in some stages of the race!
Now, thanks to a fast but careful analysis of Leonardo Fiorentino in our article the analysis of the second race of the season, we want to show how the speed has changed in the three sectors of the qualifying session and the race.
qualifying session with BOOST mapping, while in the race, even for a lot of laps, Kimi was shot with a mapping much more "safe", from about 25 bhp less than the Ferrari classic mapping. To give you the numbers, with the latter configuration, Ferrari pays instead about 10 horsepower Mercedes; gap increases when Hamilton and Rosberg also exploit the BOOST during certain stages of the Grand Prix (example: on the first flying lap coming out of the pit stop).
Maximum speed - Qualification:
1st sector Vettel Rosberg 251.4 252.9
2nd sector Raikkonen Hamilton 277.6 277.7
3rd sector Vettel Hamilton 297.2 301.5
maximum speed - Race:
1st sector Raikkonen Hamilton 238.6 246.1
2nd sector Rosberg Raikkonen 254.7 256.6
3rd sector Raikkonen Hamilton 297.7 302.0
The Shakir circuit has a first sector where, apart from the first curve, very slow, there are two straights of which one very long and where the power of the power unit is critical. And the numbers listed above, call for tender, SF16-H paid nearly 8 km / h from Mercedes to Speed Trap of the first sector. To conclude the analysis of the Bahrain circuit, the second area is a mixture of medium-curves - fast, where Ferrari has performed very well over the weekend and where the SF16-H from the GPS data was stronger than even the W07. The last segment is another straight a 90 ° bend and then straight to the finish.
And if the problem in qualifying on the energy stored in the battery does not exist because the batteries are always charged to the maximum, and turbocharger for a single spin can also withstand the high number of laps without major problems, the energy starts in the race in short supply, and the turbocharger is affected by the mechanical and thermal stresses, though continually stressed at high speeds needed to maximize energy recovery from MGU-H.
The 8 km h gap that had been created in some stages of the race (it was little more than 1 km / h in qualifying), it can be explained by the fact that once past the finish line with the battery rather download, performing curve 1 rather narrow and slow, there was with the little energy recovered during braking, to be used both to win the turbo lag that for the early stages of acceleration. But too much energy required to win the turbo lag, was almost immediately terminate the electrical energy with consequent generation of much lower speed than in the case of the classification. And indeed, we think that from a certain point on the straight, Ferrari went even recovering energy with H, useful energy then, in the later parts of the circuit.
In conclusion, until it is updated the Italian Power Unit, it is good that the team understands that it is useless to risk too much to get still in third place, although a little closer to the Mercedes duo. In these moments, even a noble team like Ferrari must learn to be content, waiting for better times!
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George Kabardis
So if i understand correctly,we have some troubles with the PU that keeping us behind Merc and this is a bit bad for now,BUT the teamknows what's the problem and when they'll fix it we will be Merc nemesis!!!!!
P.S And that we have a pretty good chassis!!!!
FERRARI FOR EVER !!!!!!!
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Exactly.
Full Member
Okay, so reading the translated Italian article, it looks as though their main issue is that the turbo charger is too big (as mentioned many times here), which means that the hybrid system is wasting too much recovered electrical energy to spool up the big and relatively heavy turbine to prevent lag. On one hand, they can tap into plenty of power on the straights because of the big turbo but the wasted energy going into spooling up the heavy turbine cannot be used on the kers as a result, affecting acceleration and therefore top speeds as well! Get it? Let's hope they get it right!
Ferrari are on a journey, which we are all on board with. The excitement of the chase is far more stimulating and empowering than winning all the time. And once we reach our destination, we will all look back at the journey and fondly remember the levels of emotions during the highs and lows.
The feeling of being somewhere is not as powerful as the desire to be there.
Full Member
Another article on the engine failure.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pe...ailure-685224/
Sebastian Vettel's engine failure at the Bahrain Grand Prix was the result of a perfect storm of circumstances related to electronic mapping, Motorsport.com can reveal.
The German failed to make the start at Sakhir after his engine blew up spectacularly on the formation lap, with smoke seen billowing out from the back of his car.
Although initial suspicion had revolved around broken fuel injectors, detailed analysis at Maranello this week has confirmed it was something totally different.
Read more on the link.
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Hopefully the software won't be too difficult to change, hopefully they will have enough time to test it properly.
Full Member
a bit confused.. I thought we were already using this so called "magic button" this year.....Vettel’s blown Bahrain engine is beyond repair
Sebastian Vettel is down to four power units for the remaining 19 races this year, following his smoky retirement on the parade lap in Bahrain.
Earlier, the Ferrari media insider Leo Turrini said the problem had been traced to an injector, but he now clarifies that the fault was actually caused by “a bug on the electronic mapping”. That is good news for the Maranello team, as the fix will presumably be easier.
“It was an electronic problem rather than the failure of a mechanical part,” agreed a report in La Repubblica newspaper.
The report explained that the electronic glitch occurred in a certain gear at precise revs “causing a sort of blackout that affected the engine” so badly that it was damaged “irreparably”.
“In China, Seb switches to power unit two”, Turrini wrote in a follow-up post on his Quotidiano blog.
Meanwhile, La Gazzetta dello Sport reports that Ferrari is working on an innovative system for its F1 ‘power unit’ called HCCI that would help the team track down Mercedes’ power advantage, particularly in qualifying.
Whether it will come quick enough for Sebastian Vettel’s 2016 title challenge is unclear, but F1 legend Gerhard Berger said the German will not lose his cool.
“Seb will not lose his patience,” the former F1 driver told Sport Bild. “He did not think he would have such a good first year, so I assume that he was ready to say the world championship would take three years.”
But F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone said alarmingly this week that he thinks Mercedes’ current advantage is so great that Ferrari will not win a title by 2020.
Vettel replied: “My contract is not even that long, so that’s the first thing I need to sort out! Apart from that, by then I will already be an old man.”
“So yes, I am confident,” he smiled when asked if he can win the title soon.
George Kabardis
Nothing really new.Just what we have listen/understand from all the rumours ,this time from James Allen!!The engine failure for Sebastian Vettel in Bahrain was certainly a painful blow to Ferrari, dropping Vettel 35 points behind Nico Rosberg already and costing the team the chance to stay in touch with Mercedes in the Constructors Championship.
By pushing the envelope on the engine, these are the risks that Ferrari decided to take in seeking to bridge the gap to Mercedes from 2015 to this year. But there could be good news on the horizon.
An injector failure is being discussed as the cause of Vettels failure, the damage likely to be severe enough for the four time champion to need a new unit for the next event in China. This is not the end of the world, as the teams have five engines for the 2016 season, despite there only being two more races than in 2015, when they had four. So there is some room for manoeuvre.
Perhaps more significant is the development which is coming for the team on the turbo, which was due for China and has now been pushed back to Spain, while the customer teams will get it for Austria.
This will fix a problem whereby vibrations from the turbo, which is seeking to spin at very high speeds, are causing the unit to overheat. Ferrari has not been able to exploit the full potential of its unit as a result and has had to run more conservatively.
Bahrain however showed that they have made strides on the control electronics side and the speeds they were achieving show that, once the turbo issue is fixed, there will be little to choose between the Ferrari and the Mercedes on power.
The problem is that they have already lost this early ground in both championships and cannot get it back.
If we think back to the two four-day tests in Barcelona, Mercedes had everyone guessing by covering very high mileages on the medium tyres, not going for lap times, but going for reliability. This has paid off in the opening rounds and the only points dropped are the three Hamilton did not pick up for second place rather than third in Bahrain, after a tangle on the opening lap caused car damage.
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He does make a point though, Ferrari's testing appears to be mainly about setup. They don't seem to spend much time on getting mileage to check for reliability.
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The path Ferrari are on now (essentially playing a catch-up game) determined how they tested in Barcelona, I think. Lots of bits & pieces, you don't just throw them all on at once & start collecting data. Merc's concerns were tyre wear & possibly brake reliability, two areas where you need a lot of test distance to get data.
Not a proven fact, just my theory. Who knows, after seeing what Merc did, maybe more teams will see a value to their approach & imitate next winter?
Forza Ferrari !
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." - Juan Manuel Fangio
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Imagine ! Grosjean had a better Ferrari than Seb !!
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Clipping...So how are they going to fix it? It doesn't exactly seem like small issue that will be fixed by new combustion and more heat. Maybe it will, maybe Ferrari made turbo slightly larger knowing they will deliver more HP later in season (Spain). If this doesn't fix the issue, its going to be a long long Spa when we get there...
George Kabardis
Again , now its looks bad and costing us performance and DNFs/DNSs ,but if we look that competitive with ll this problems that forcing us run detuned,then what will happen when we manageto solve this problems and run 100%??because the team looks confident about solving this problems and then i reacon that we will see a totaly different picture(championship)!!
Full Member
I feel somehow that the Mercs have lots of power in reserve and they don't wick the engine up just to look like we are competing with them. The last qualifying they were both 4 tenths faster on the engine alone and that's quite a gap.
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a quick question as i'm no engineer, aren't these engine issues supposed to have been tested in the dyno or these things wouldn't be encountered in such test scenario? thanks!
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Does this mean that only the works team have the "Magic Button" for qualifying ?
Banned
Yes. Yes it should have. Those engines should have been on an dyno running full races and Quali sessions all winter long. I'm sure there is a restriction to the amount of time they can use just like wind tunnel but still.
Full Member
People always say Merc is sandbagging and if they want they can turn the engine up and destroy the feild but theres only so much Merc can do because of fuel flow restrictions. Has it ever occured to anyone that Merc doesnt have all this power that people say it has and that Ferrari could be ahead of Merc even if Merc turns their engine to insane Mode. Our problem right now is reliability thats stopping us from pushing the engine. I think the fear of Merc's power has made people to think they are untouchable. Come on, their power unit does not have infinite power if we are 35hp down on them and we catch up , theres no way merc can unleash another 35hp to stay ahead. Where will they be getting that power from ? Its just not possible there's only so much the ICE and electronics can do unless they upgrade and now I think their upgrades will have minimal returns now because of fuel flow restrictions We always say Merc never show their true pace, I personaly believe thats just anxiety thinking if theres ever such a thing ( fear of the unknown) Merc on the other hand know their full pace and when they say ferrari is close we just take it for granted that they are saying that for the sake of the sport " to keep fans interested " but has anyone ever thought that Merc could actualy be shitting their pants with fear that their domination is coming to an end ? . The amount of Token spent on updrages by Ferrari 23+4 =27 thats almost the whole engine apart from the frozen bits. Now you seriously cannot tell me that with that much investment we havent caught up thats just insane. Merc may have spent 19 tokens on their engines but the car we have now will murder the W06 hands down and most people said that car couldnt be caught its miles ahead. We are breathing on Mercs neck and thats it. Thats all I wana believe and I wont let anyone tell me differently
George Kabardis
More or less I agree with you . I also disagree with people who when Merc are ahead they say "oh Mercs are mighty etc" and when we are really close its just that they are not showing their true pace for good of the sport.and the reason I don't believe that is simply because on the next race that they are truly stronger they are leaving everybody behind seconds.So their they don't care about the sport ????
They only bad thing is that the truth is that till now we haven't shown a pace capable of putting us clearly ahead of them.Not yet but I also feel that we will pretty sure and they will not have any performance left to answer!!
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