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Thread: What is going on with Sebastian Vettel

  1. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Vettel rejects psychological coach.
    i like him as is, so thats good news
    hockenheim 2018 / China 2018 : Never forget how quick Ferrari can lose it all, be humble.
    Positivity doesn't win you championships, whining about people being negative makes you blind!
    lol ignore the bitter old cows ;-)

  2. #722
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    Mmm it's not a shame to get help.

    Ah well maybe next year eh ?
    Hero's come and go, but legends never die!

  3. #723
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    Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari perform in the Formula 1 season 2018 under their possibilities. Christian Danner analyzes where the dog is buried.

    Why are Ferrari and Sebastian Vettel so clearly behind Mercedes and Lewis Hamilton? The car can not lie ...
    Christian Danner: No, the car is clearly not. Ferrari has managed to implement the potential by a combination of political mistakes, strategic mistakes, bad luck and sometimes even a very aggressive Sebastian. From the purely technical and driving side, Ferrari can win any race.

    You have addressed Sebastian Vettel. He is the most heavily criticized by many sides. Is that correct?
    Christian Danner: It's easy - especially after Hockenheim - to beat Sebastian Vettel. In Hockenheim, of course, he has thrown away many points, but you must not forget how it came to this. Kimi has stopped him many laps, Sebastian did not pass, the tire temperatures went up, Hamilton has caught up. Ferrari did nothing. In the rain Vettel then had to drive with much more risk than he would have had to drive. That does not mean you have to leave, but here you have no problem endangering a superior position. I do not want to talk about Monza. There it was clear that you are faster in the slipstream. No matter how they started the year at Ferrari with the slipstream, at some point you have to ask yourself: Who can become world champion? Kimi or Sebastian? It looks a bit bad for Kimi and very good for Sebastian. Then you have to turn it around.

    So Ferrari not only makes life difficult for himself, but especially Sebastian Vettel?
    Christian Danner: Definitely! Let's not forget: What Bottas did in Monza with Kimi, has finally disassembled Kimi's race. As a result, Hamilton passed by and won the race. A very good car with a brilliant Hamilton and a very good Bottas is a bulwark that consistently uses Mercedes with all available parameters against Ferrari and Vettel. Because Ferrari does not do that, it's two against one. Ferrari has to react to that, or it would have had to react a long time ago. But they were scared. Afraid because they did not want to fire Kimi once, but somehow had to. That was almost embarrassing. What do you want? Do you want to make Kimi happy or win the World Cup?

    Is Ferrari historically afraid of stall orders?
    Christian Danner: In the statements of Maurizio Arrivabene about the team order, you realize that he does not understand team order properly. Team orders do not have to be made by saying: Let it pass. That is very different. Teamorder works by agreeing in advance and having a plan for all eventualities. It is not possible that Kimi drove in Hockenheim for a full circle in front of Sebastian. He needs to know that he has to drive to the side. But then there is the contract negotiations at the same time, a big poker. Is he staying, is not he? There you have to make things clear.

    It does not have to be like Schumacher and Barrichello when he had to let him pass in Austria 'for the World Cup'. It does not have to be that dull today. When I stood next to it, Toto Wolff called Bottas Wingman. Even though he later regretted saying so: The word Wingman comes from Toto Wolff and no one else. It's clear how Mercedes does that. Wingman sounds better as a teamorder. But it is nothing else in content.

    If we look at the bigger picture: Is Ferrari just missing out on building a team around Vettel as it was done around Schumacher back then? You do not really support him in the World Cup fight, put him in front of Leclerc next year, although he obviously would have preferred Kimi. Which does not mean that he feels particularly well ...
    Christian Danner: The Schumacher years were in the recent Ferrari past the only days in which Ferrari was consistently ahead. Why did that work then? Jean Todt had the store completely under control both inside and out. Inwardly he has bought and outwardly he has worked politically. No matter what Schumacher did, he always stood in front of him and protected him. The same was true for Ross Brawn. If Michael wanted a brick on the rear wing, then he got it. Most of the time he knew what he wanted and then drove faster. Whether Barrichello liked it or not, they did not care.

    And then you look at Ferrari today: They let Sebastian hang in Monza and then said that it would be the same with Ferrari. Let's take a look at what Mercedes did in Austria: There, James Volwes made a wrong decision and Lewis Hamilton complained. Then the world's best strategist publicly flogged himself and told Lewis over the radio that he made a mistake and apologized. Just to keep the diva Hamilton happy. Mercedes knows: If Hamilton is happy, he is good. That's why they make him happy. You have to be aware of that.

    At Ferrari, it's the other way round. And what does the Italian press do? Drive over Sebastian. That's never happened to Ferrari with Jean Todt, Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne. They stuck together ironically, they had their store under control and there was only one motto: For the driver, I do everything. On the other hand, Sebastian does everything for the team and is always fair. He would have had enough opportunities to criticize the team. But he faces the team, even if there were obvious mistakes.


    Vettel seems to make more mistakes without backing and with the pressure.
    Christian Danner: I do not necessarily think so. He compensates a lot with risk. But I already believe that you get a Vettel in maximum form, if you give him a good feeling. At Red Bull, it was not much different, I remember Multi21. There, however, Dr. Marko then said: Vettel will be world champion and not Webber. It's not as if that had not been tried to get the Vettel in the maximum range.

    Schumacher then had many people - Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne have already been addressed - from Benetton to Ferrari piloted. Did Vettel miss building up his team or is it not working anymore?
    Christian Danner: That does not work anymore. Ferrari is different. And besides, you can badly implant the Red Bull team at Ferrari. You also need a Jean Todt for it. And that does not exist. Technically, that works, but even greats like James Allison and Co. always ran aground because the political head is not the right one. Instead of relieving Sebastian properly, he fights alone.

    The car is good, Mattia Binotto has a good team together. The engines are going crazy! Only: If the opponent is just as good, that's not enough. Not only do I want to chop up Ferrari, they have achieved many things that many did not even dare to do. They have a more reliable and powerful engine than Mercedes and they have a car that works everywhere: in slow corners as well as in fast corners, they have found a good compromise between downforce and aerodynamic drag. You've done a lot right, but that's not enough if you want to win the World Cup.

    Is there a way out? Is the title still possible?
    Christian Danner: Yes, that is still possible! In the one and a half weeks between Singapore and Sochi, one hopes to sit down and think: What do we really want? Do we want to roll or do we want to become world champions? Mind you, Leclerc will not be coming until next year, and if you've calculated that Kimi will not be able to do that in the World Cup then you should come to the logical conclusion and say: If Mercedes does that, then we'll do it that way , Besides, you have to analyze the mistakes you make soberly and not emotionally.






    Is this guy saying that Ferrari is full of "stupid" people who does not know how to win with fastest car??

    He is mentioning Todt and Schumacher with fastest car...

    But I remember Domenicali team with slower car and Alonso still was able to fight for title until last race twice (2010, 2012). Does that mean Ferrari had better team with Domenicali than now with Maurizio? If so, why Ferrari let go Domenicali and his team??

    This guy talks ...

    The biggest problem is Vettel...

  4. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwk360 View Post
    i like him as is, so thats good news

    Is this guy saying that Ferrari is full of "stupid" people who does not know how to win with fastest car??

    He is mentioning Todt and Schumacher with fastest car...

    But I remember Domenicali team with slower car and Alonso still was able to fight for title until last race twice (2010, 2012). Does that mean Ferrari had better team with Domenicali than now with Maurizio? If so, why Ferrari let go Domenicali and his team??

    This guy talks ...

    The biggest problem is Vettel...

  5. #725
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    Vettel is a perfect example of the fact that having a lot of luck in life and making the right decision can be achieved very much without the skills required for this.

    Hamilton is a perfect example of the fact that having a lot of luck in life and making the right decision can be achieved very much with the skills required for this.

    Alonso is a complete opposition of Vettel, skill but wrong decisions and bad luck.

  6. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    Vettel is a perfect example of the fact that having a lot of luck in life and making the right decision can be achieved very much without the skills required for this.

    Hamilton is a perfect example of the fact that having a lot of luck in life and making the right decision can be achieved very much with the skills required for this.

    Alonso is a complete opposition of Vettel, skill but wrong decisions and bad luck.
    That's what i have been satin saying, but when you say it on this forum, the fanboys take offence at it and come with arguments like 4 time wdc and what Fernandoz got??, he's negative etc etc
    But i think we can't hide the truth forever, it dawn's upon us one day.
    Samez the case with Sebastian, i mean hez a good driver but not in the likes of Fernando and Lewis. FOR FERRARI TO WIN CHAMPIONSHIP, EITHER LEWIS SHOULDN'T BE IN THE MERCEDES OR ALONSO/LEWIS SHOULD BE IN THAT FERRARI.

  7. #727
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    Quote Originally Posted by red arrow View Post
    That's what i have been satin saying, but when you say it on this forum, the fanboys take offence at it and come with arguments like 4 time wdc and what Fernandoz got??, he's negative etc etc
    But i think we can't hide the truth forever, it dawn's upon us one day.
    Samez the case with Sebastian, i mean hez a good driver but not in the likes of Fernando and Lewis. FOR FERRARI TO WIN CHAMPIONSHIP, EITHER LEWIS SHOULDN'T BE IN THE MERCEDES OR ALONSO/LEWIS SHOULD BE IN THAT FERRARI.
    Well most of them are driver/Vettel fan pretending to be Ferrari fan. They are only here because Vettel is in Ferrari and will leave this forum when Vettel leaves Ferrari. I wouldn't pay too much attention to them.

  8. #728
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    What is going on with Vettel?, lack of racing intelligence. Perfect example today, that move on Max was too optimistic, but even if we believe Max was at fault, Vettel could have waited to overtake in other part of the track were it's safer. On top of that Max had a penalty. I guess Vettel was delusional enough to believe he could have finished 2nd so he had to go all attack without using his brain.

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    Is Fernando still out of contract next year?

  10. #730
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    Ferrari team mistakes are much bigger than Vettel’s driving mistakes.
    Ferrari have structural in-house problems. No driver would manage to get past it.

  11. #731
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    Indeed, he is
    I wish he gets a call from Ferrari
    It would be a treat to watch Fred and vettle battling it out with lewis and blok-ass

  12. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by red arrow View Post
    Indeed, he is
    I wish he gets a call from Ferrari
    It would be a treat to watch Fred and vettle battling it out with lewis and blok-ass
    What a treat that would be. But sadly it wont be happening. We already have Leclerc, and we wont be dumping Seb. So lets brace ourselves for next year.
    Silently, like a shadow

  13. #733
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    Ferrari should have picked up Ricciardo and let go of Kimi for 2019. Aside from his DNF's, he would have been the better pick for 2019 IF Ferrari wanted to win from a drivers perspective.....but Ferrari let him go. He would have given Seb....a time to think of how to overtake when necessary. I get it, find the gap and go for it. How has that worked out for Seb when compared to Ricciardo.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  14. #734
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    By the way, the permutation for Austin is the same for Hamilton to win the championship as it was in 2015 over Vettel. In other words, Vettel is just as far away this year as 2015.



    Let that sink in...

  15. #735
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    Quote Originally Posted by zike View Post
    By the way, the permutation for Austin is the same for Hamilton to win the championship as it was in 2015 over Vettel. In other words, Vettel is just as far away this year as 2015.



    Let that sink in...
    Do you have the championship breakdown from 2015? Seems hard to believe.

  16. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by evo_spook View Post
    Do you have the championship breakdown from 2015? Seems hard to believe.
    With 4 races to go Seb was 66 points down on Hamilton in 2015. This year he is 67 points behind. Shocked... Seb finished 103 points behind LH that year. Last year he was 59 points down with 4 races to go
    Last edited by IulianFerrari; 7th October 2018 at 18:20.

  17. #737
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    Seb has made just too many mistakes this year.

    Even Michael made mistakes, but heck not this many!
    I hope Leclerc will be allowed to race and win next year, if he has to be Seb's "Bottas" then we are in deep trouble from the off. Hopefully that won't be the case.

  18. #738
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    Quote Originally Posted by IulianFerrari View Post
    With 4 races to go Seb was 66 points down on Hamilton in 2015. This year he is 67 points behind. Shocked... Seb finished 103 points behind LH that year. Last year he was 59 points down with 4 races to go
    Last two years, get to Singapore and Ferrari implodes

  19. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by IulianFerrari View Post
    With 4 races to go Seb was 66 points down on Hamilton in 2015. This year he is 67 points behind. Shocked... Seb finished 103 points behind LH that year. Last year he was 59 points down with 4 races to go
    2015 & 2016 was under the token system. 2017 was no token system so Seb was closer in pts. 2018 is the better car IMO when compared to the previous 3 years cars and we've fallen back to 2015 pts wise... Interesting.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  20. #740
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    The best F1 drivers of all time have a thing called patience. Sometimes, you have to let a race come to you. Sometimes that race doesn't come to you, and you then need to gather as many points as you can and move on.

    Michael won his first title for Ferrari by patiently trailing along behind Mika Hakkinen at Suzuka for most of a GP until he had the chance to pip him during a pit stop. Michael did not need to force a pass there, and he knew it. Patience.

    About a month ago in Italy, Lewis Hamilton patiently trailed behind Kimi Raikkonen for nearly an entire GP until he found a chance to pass him late for the win. Patience.

    Sebastien Vettel, for all his titles and all his experience as a GP driver, has no patience in the cockpit.

  21. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwk360 View Post
    i like him as is, so thats good news
    ????

  22. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScuderiaBuckeye View Post
    The best F1 drivers of all time have a thing called patience. Sometimes, you have to let a race come to you. Sometimes that race doesn't come to you, and you then need to gather as many points as you can and move on.

    Michael won his first title for Ferrari by patiently trailing along behind Mika Hakkinen at Suzuka for most of a GP until he had the chance to pip him during a pit stop. Michael did not need to force a pass there, and he knew it. Patience.

    About a month ago in Italy, Lewis Hamilton patiently trailed behind Kimi Raikkonen for nearly an entire GP until he found a chance to pass him late for the win. Patience.

    Sebastien Vettel, for all his titles and all his experience as a GP driver, has no patience in the cockpit.
    They are pretty different situations though, Michael did not NEED to win that race to claim the title and neither did Lewis in Monza, you could also say 2010 Alonso had patience and lost the title so it's not really that clear cut, could also mention MS at Brazil 2006 he could not be patient and he went for it and had a problem. Seb needed to make moves yesterday as the time for patience has clearly run out.
    Forza Ferrari

  23. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by FerrariSteve View Post
    Seb has made just too many mistakes this year.

    Even Michael made mistakes, but heck not this many!
    I hope Leclerc will be allowed to race and win next year, if he has to be Seb's "Bottas" then we are in deep trouble from the off. Hopefully that won't be the case.
    Dont think he will be allowed to race. Maybe am reading too much into things, but the way he bent over each time Seb came up behind him in the japanese GP, seems to suggest that the contract is very clear who is the boss.
    In a year or two, yes perhaps he will be leading the team. He is brilliant, and i hope he doesnt end up becoming a Bottas or a Massa.
    Silently, like a shadow

  24. #744
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    Kimi has way less "incidents" on the track for 2018 than Vettel...as that's because Kimi plays second fiddle with "outdated" components at times.
    Last edited by jgonzalesm6; 8th October 2018 at 12:47.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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  26. #746
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    I would have picked up Ricciardo. LeClerc move to HAAS for 1 yr or 2 against K-Mag and let Grosjean go.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  27. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    They are pretty different situations though, Michael did not NEED to win that race to claim the title and neither did Lewis in Monza, you could also say 2010 Alonso had patience and lost the title so it's not really that clear cut, could also mention MS at Brazil 2006 he could not be patient and he went for it and had a problem. Seb needed to make moves yesterday as the time for patience has clearly run out.
    Seb displayed no patience in Baku, no patience in France, and no patience in Italy. He has none.

  28. #748
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    As a Ferrari fan, I can honestly say that I cannot comprehend how we are behind in points in both WDC and WCC. Sorry, but this is just inexcusable. Most of the blame for this I put on the drivers. Everyone knows that Kimi is nr.2, but Seb has had every chance in the world to go for the WDC. Sadly, he has failed. I was not happy with his performances last year, when I thought Ferrari was much better than it showed sometimes, but this year has just been awful. Far too many mistakes and underperformances from him, all the while Hamilton is putting in awesome drives every week. We have overall had the best car, how on earth are we so much behind


    I truly thought after Silverstone that this will be a walk in the park from now on. And it has been. But for the wrong team.

  29. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    They are pretty different situations though, Michael did not NEED to win that race to claim the title and neither did Lewis in Monza, you could also say 2010 Alonso had patience and lost the title so it's not really that clear cut, could also mention MS at Brazil 2006 he could not be patient and he went for it and had a problem. Seb needed to make moves yesterday as the time for patience has clearly run out.
    Time for patience had run out because he had made sure it would (unwillingly, of course).
    Thing of the matter is that as much as I want to defend Vettel, if I want to be just, he just has made so many errors.
    But if we need to understand why, the answer might be in the simple fact that he has to be in the cockpit and also do stuff he should not (like strategize while driving, having Kimi pressuring him while at Merc there is no such thing, and so on).

    So the real question is, is Ferrari doing all they can to take the unnecessary pressure from him ?
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

  30. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Estoril View Post
    As a Ferrari fan, I can honestly say that I cannot comprehend how we are behind in points in both WDC and WCC. Sorry, but this is just inexcusable. Most of the blame for this I put on the drivers. Everyone knows that Kimi is nr.2, but Seb has had every chance in the world to go for the WDC. Sadly, he has failed. I was not happy with his performances last year, when I thought Ferrari was much better than it showed sometimes, but this year has just been awful. Far too many mistakes and underperformances from him, all the while Hamilton is putting in awesome drives every week. We have overall had the best car, how on earth are we so much behind


    I truly thought after Silverstone that this will be a walk in the park from now on. And it has been. But for the wrong team.
    Just because you don't understand things, that does not make things inexcusable.
    You say bout #1, #2, but Arivabene simply denies this and says he does not believe in team orders so how do you support that "everybody knows" ?
    In fact, late events underline the very fact that EVERYONE now clearly should know, that there is no clear status, and in fact, if there was, the team would be in far better state, even if there are these few romantics (you all know who I am talking about) that think that sport is better without team orders.

    A team goes astray when there is no clear leadership in place.
    Is it strange that after Sergio's death , things went to hell?
    Is it strange that there is no clear leadership in the pits?

    Is it strange that the way Kimi was handled in respect to his contract was an utter fail ( I don't mean he was not kept in Ferrari, but the WAY he was dealt with at this point of the championship )?
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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