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Thread: What is going on with Sebastian Vettel

  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vittorio View Post

    Bottom line: Most of us know deep down that Schmuacher at his peak would be neck-and-neck or even leading the WDC in this same 2018 Ferrari - and, dare I say it, probably so too would Alonso.
    In this same 2018 Ferrari, throw in Todt the midjet, Ross, and Rubens ; in the #2 car, deep down I believe Seb would be right up there also. Schumy owned Ferrari inside & out and put it to good use.

  2. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    In this same 2018 Ferrari, throw in Todt the midjet, Ross, and Rubens ; in the #2 car, deep down I believe Seb would be right up there also. Schumy owned Ferrari inside & out and put it to good use.
    Nonsense. The whole 'Schumi owned Ferrari' back then is utter mythology cackled endlessly by his detractors and, frankly, echoed far too often on this forum. If he was that powerful, then how come Ferrari were so quick to basically oust him out of the team in order to bring Raikkonen into the team for 2007? It was actually an incredibly shitty move on the part of Ferrari and typical of Luca di Montezomelo's power plays during his tenure. Schumi hardly 'owned' Ferrari.

    Schumi was able to bring over a team comprised of Todt, Brawn and Byrne to Ferrari precisely because of the superb driver he was and the loyalty he engendered in others. And because he was a brilliant driver - and a very smart one most of the time. That is why an intelligent and seasoned F1 pro like Ross Brawn has only great things to say about Schumacher - and considered him the best and most complete driver.

    And that's not what I meant anyway. Schumacher would have been phenomenal or at least always in the picture in any car because that is the driver he was. Same goes for the likes of Senna. Even the greats made mistakes, of course they did. But they rose to the occasion when it mattered and you always knew they could do something special, even amazing at any time.

    Even Alonso has that ability, and I'm no huge fan of his - but what's fair is fair. Look at what he's done with a frankly sub-par and often quite bad McLaren. I know I had a lot more faith in Alonso when he was driving for our beloved red team, even during the times when the car was nowhere near the best or a front-runner. You just felt he'd get the very best out of the car more times than not.

    I don't have that faith in Vettel in a Ferrari, even when he's driving arguably the best car, and especially this season. His erratic behaviour in a decent Ferrari started to creep in last year and has really come to the fore this season.

    Vettel is simply not in that class.

    That is why so many of us are indeed disappointed in him, especially this year. You expect more from a man who has won four world championships.

    He has not delivered. And he should be judged as such by the tifosi.

  3. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelMar View Post
    Hamilton finished 2012 just under 100 points down on Vettel with a faster car.

    I think I explained it to you a few times before, but Lewis's car was as reliable as Vettel's (both had exactly 2 mechanical DNFs).
    You selectively quote dnf stats whilst making sure you dont talk about the OPERATIONAL errors by the team that cost Hamilton points all season.

    When provided with a link to a news story and reminded that Hamilton left the team that season after numerous said mistakes, you disappeared.

    Only to turn back up again a month later with the same nonsensical arguement that Vettel drove a slower car 100 points better than Hamilton and it was all down to driver skill.

    I mean that is such a rediculous arguement that no one really buys into other than you.

    I support Ferrari, but that doesn't mean i can tell when our rivals have a faster driver and thats the case right now.

    Wait till verstappen get a championship winning car, we wont be seeing titles for another decade if we continue to let him drive for other teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FerrariFan View Post
    You selectively quote dnf stats whilst making sure you dont talk about the OPERATIONAL errors by the team that cost Hamilton points all season.

    When provided with a link to a news story and reminded that Hamilton left the team that season after numerous said mistakes, you disappeared.

    Only to turn back up again a month later with the same nonsensical arguement that Vettel drove a slower car 100 points better than Hamilton and it was all down to driver skill.

    I mean that is such a rediculous arguement that no one really buys into other than you.

    I support Ferrari, but that doesn't mean i can tell when our rivals have a faster driver and thats the case right now.

    Wait till verstappen get a championship winning car, we wont be seeing titles for another decade if we continue to let him drive for other teams.
    Max is fast, but at the moment he is still too reckless to win a WDC. If he is in a championship winning car and losses, that may teach him.

  5. #785
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    Quote Originally Posted by evo_spook View Post
    Max is fast, but at the moment he is still too reckless to win a WDC. If he is in a championship winning car and losses, that may teach him.
    Did you ever see michael Schumacher? In particular how he won in 1994 vs damon hill?

    Verstappen is cut from the same cloth.

  6. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by evo_spook View Post
    Max is fast, but at the moment he is still too reckless to win a WDC. If he is in a championship winning car and losses, that may teach him.
    I would take Max in a championship winning car over the field at the moment, and I would win a championship with him. He has matured a great deal this year and looks to me like he's finally taken that step.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arno View Post
    @FerrariFan, Sorry, my bad, I forgot to add maxy max and riccardo to that list.
    There’s a 99.9 % probabilty that you like them too.
    I have absolutely zero interest in defending Seb however on a serious note, people need to stop bringing in Ric in the equation.
    Yes he did beat Seb that year.
    But one year alone means zero.

    It would be interesting to see what would happen the next year but that never happen.
    On one year alone, one can not know who is the best driver, based on that one year. It's just stupid.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScuderiaBuckeye View Post
    I would take Max in a championship winning car over the field at the moment, and I would win a championship with him. He has matured a great deal this year and looks to me like he's finally taken that step.
    His response to the Kimi incident shows he still has a lot of growing up to do.

  9. #789
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScuderiaBuckeye View Post
    I would take Max in a championship winning car over the field at the moment, and I would win a championship with him. He has matured a great deal this year and looks to me like he's finally taken that step.
    Why verstappen when we will have Leclerc next year ?

  10. #790
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    Quote Originally Posted by evo_spook View Post
    His response to the Kimi incident shows he still has a lot of growing up to do.
    Yes he does as do all 21-year olds but he has matured enough as an F1 driver to win the WDC if he has the car. When Max gets a car that he can put onto the pole he will win races going away just like Schumacher and just like Hamilton and just like Vettel can do when he's not shooting himself in the foot.

    Quote Originally Posted by jpalmito
    Why verstappen when we will have Leclerc next year ?
    Leclerc to his credit appears to have less of a hot-head than Max (and potentially all the talent) but Max has proven his mettle in one of the top teams something Leclerc has yet to do, so if I were to choose today, Max would be the choice no question.

  11. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScuderiaBuckeye View Post
    Yes he does as do all 21-year olds but he has matured enough as an F1 driver to win the WDC if he has the car. When Max gets a car that he can put onto the pole he will win races going away just like Schumacher and just like Hamilton and just like Vettel can do when he's not shooting himself in the foot.



    Leclerc to his credit appears to have less of a hot-head than Max (and potentially all the talent) but Max has proven his mettle in one of the top teams something Leclerc has yet to do, so if I were to choose today, Max would be the choice no question.
    If Verstappen is given a car that is slightly better than Hamilton's, I believe he will emerge victorious. Honestly, if Ferrari can't win next year, I hope he does with Red Bull. Someone needs to stop Mercedes's reign of terror.

    Leclerc is a much cleaner driver than Verstappen is and I believe he is equally as talented as him. What we have seen this season is similar to what we saw Verstappen do at Toro Rosso, minus several of Verstappen's mistakes that could be chalked up to overzealousness. Leclerc will do well with Ferrari and seems to be a driver who can adapt quickly.

  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giallo 550 View Post
    If Verstappen is given a car that is slightly better than Hamilton's, I believe he will emerge victorious. Honestly, if Ferrari can't win next year, I hope he does with Red Bull. Someone needs to stop Mercedes's reign of terror.

    Leclerc is a much cleaner driver than Verstappen is and I believe he is equally as talented as him. What we have seen this season is similar to what we saw Verstappen do at Toro Rosso, minus several of Verstappen's mistakes that could be chalked up to overzealousness. Leclerc will do well with Ferrari and seems to be a driver who can adapt quickly.
    I think as soon as verstappen gets car which has a sniff of winning a wdc, hes gonna be there thereabouts. He is not scared or intimidated of any driver, backs himself 100% and wheel to wheel he has that schumacher ljke ruthlessness about him that i have never seen from another driver in the sport sjnce michaeal, ultra quick, mentally tough, he's everything we should be looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FerrariFan View Post
    You selectively quote dnf stats whilst making sure you dont talk about the OPERATIONAL errors by the team that cost Hamilton points all season.

    When provided with a link to a news story and reminded that Hamilton left the team that season after numerous said mistakes, you disappeared.

    Only to turn back up again a month later with the same nonsensical arguement that Vettel drove a slower car 100 points better than Hamilton and it was all down to driver skill.

    I mean that is such a rediculous arguement that no one really buys into other than you.

    I support Ferrari, but that doesn't mean i can tell when our rivals have a faster driver and thats the case right now.

    Wait till verstappen get a championship winning car, we wont be seeing titles for another decade if we continue to let him drive for other teams.
    There is no selective quoting at all. Just establishing the facts about 2012 season.
    Vettel finished 91 points ahead of Hamilton.
    McLaren was the faster car ( for instance in quali it was on the average 2 full tenths faster than RedBull)
    Hamilton's reliability was not worse than Vettel's as you suggested (2 DNFs each).
    Hamilton had 3 more DNFs due to accidents when Vettel had none.

    So you are only left with your claim of "Operational errors". RBR also had a few ones like insufficient fuel sample in Abu Dhabi sending Vettel to the back of the grid. McLaren did the same at Spain sending Lewis to the back of the grid.

    It is nonsensical whitewashing to claim McLaren's the operational issues would cause that many points difference compared to RBR's issues. If McLaren made operational errors that somehow caused Lewis 7 points a race ( P1 -> P2, P2 -P5, P3 -> P6, etc), they have to screw up 13 races in a 20 race season to make up 91 points....

    I am sure you also have a bunch of excuses for 2011 when Button was runner up in WDC where Lewis was P5 in the same car.

  14. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelMar View Post
    There is no selective quoting at all. Just establishing the facts about 2012 season.
    Vettel finished 91 points ahead of Hamilton.
    McLaren was the faster car ( for instance in quali it was on the average 2 full tenths faster than RedBull)
    Hamilton's reliability was not worse than Vettel's as you suggested (2 DNFs each).
    Hamilton had 3 more DNFs due to accidents when Vettel had none.

    So you are only left with your claim of "Operational errors". RBR also had a few ones like insufficient fuel sample in Abu Dhabi sending Vettel to the back of the grid. McLaren did the same at Spain sending Lewis to the back of the grid.

    It is nonsensical whitewashing to claim McLaren's the operational issues would cause that many points difference compared to RBR's issues. If McLaren made operational errors that somehow caused Lewis 7 points a race ( P1 -> P2, P2 -P5, P3 -> P6, etc), they have to screw up 13 races in a 20 race season to make up 91 points....

    I am sure you also have a bunch of excuses for 2011 when Button was runner up in WDC where Lewis was P5 in the same car.

    Yawn

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formu...h-says-1447039

    Lewis Hamilton's team boss admitted for the first time McLaren are to blame for the 27-year-old’s wrecked title dreams.

    Martin Whitmarsh revealed the USA Grand Prix winner should be taking part in Sunday’s two-way title decider between Sebastian Vettel and Fernando Alonso in Brazil and their car reliability problems are to blame.


    "He should have been a contender but I haven't spent that much time dwelling on it,” he said.

    "We have underperformed. We haven't done a good enough job in a number of different ways but we've had a quick car and that is an achievement.

    https://www.racefans.net/2012/12/18/...eview-mclaren/

    But failures in the car and by the team cost them the chance to bring home more championship silverware. And they likely contributed to Hamilton’s decision to leave.

    Hamilton began the year with a trio of third-place finishes that briefly put him at the head of the drivers’ championship table. But errors by the team in the pits in Malaysia and China deprived him of better results, and another pair of mistakes in round four left him only eighth.

    An even more costly blunder followed in Spain. With too little fuel in his car, Hamilton was banished to the back of the grid. On a track where overtaking is especially difficult his patient climb through the field was poorly rewarded with another eighth place
    Korean rounds, the latter leaving him to fight a rearguard action against the likes of Kimi Raikkonen. He limped home tenth with a clump of Astroturf stuck to his car, causing further handling problems.

    It was further proof that for Hamilton it was a year when if something could go wrong, it did. Ramming that point home further he retired while leading again in Abu Dhabi, this time with a fuel pressure problem.
    There you go. Actual Sources and Evidence, not someone twisting statistics on the internet to come up with one of the silliest arguements ever seen on an f1 forum.

    Funny how f1 jounalists, McLarens own team boss and others all come to the same conclusion.

    Hamilton drove well but mistakes by the team cost him a shot at the title and that contributed to him leaving the team.

    I see no one of any note saying what you have been parroting on about

    "Vettel fnished 100 points ahead of Hamilton in the wdc in a slower car down to pure driver skills"

    And the reason very few sensible people are saying that is simple.

    Its a dumb thing to say

    Its especially dumb to try and bring that up in 2018....where hamilton outperformed vettel even when we had a faster car than him.

  15. #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by evo_spook View Post
    His response to the Kimi incident shows he still has a lot of growing up to do.
    Max has a good time with interviews, he acts like he's in his 20s! When he's racing he shows he's WDC material in a real car. Lewis also says what he thinks during interviews, but, well we all know what's up when he drives.

  16. #796
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    Max has a good time with interviews, he acts like he's in his 20s! When he's racing he shows he's WDC material in a real car. Lewis also says what he thinks during interviews, but, well we all know what's up when he drives.
    If max could drive right now the second Mercedes, I can assure you Lewis will loose all his cool and will have a very difficult fight against max .

    Prost was criticized a lot but he agreed the senna challenge in 1988 !

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    If MV would drive right now the second Mercedes he too would be running as wingman until WDC would be decided.
    "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Harley View Post
    If MV would drive right now the second Mercedes he too would be running as wingman until WDC would be decided.
    No way. Max will gave Golden Chain Boy very hard time.

  19. #799
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noquarter View Post
    No way. Max will gave Golden Chain Boy very hard time.
    For that to happen, it would mean to have equal number one status in his contract, as it was with Rosberg

    Bottas can’t do or say anything as his clearly the no. 2 at Merc and being two chains wing man
    Last edited by Rob; 12th October 2018 at 15:02. Reason: no need for the silly name calling, plus, spell his name right. Thankyou.
    ...the new SF71H looks amazing. Let's hope it's gonna be as FAST as it looks.


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    Those 2 chains fans talk about could very well be Lewis' "good luck charms" Seb should get fitted up ASAP. There's still time !!

  21. #801
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    I don’t think Max will ever move over like Bottas, Räikkönen does. His first year in F1, driving for TR at Singapore GP, career not made yet, risks being ousted by team for disobeying team instruction, he told his team and entire world what he thinks about moving over
    “I prefer to beat them on Sunday” -Fernando Alonso, Press Conference Korean GP 2010

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  22. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    Those 2 chains fans talk about could very well be Lewis' "good luck charms" Seb should get fitted up ASAP. There's still time !!
    you might be unto something, but is it 2 chains or 3?

    LH.jpg

  23. #803
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrarichamp View Post
    you might be unto something, but is it 2 chains or 3?

    LH.jpg
    Three chains are too many, the weight may cause blistering! On his neck and tires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DelMar View Post
    There is no selective quoting at all. Just establishing the facts about 2012 season.
    Vettel finished 91 points ahead of Hamilton.
    McLaren was the faster car ( for instance in quali it was on the average 2 full tenths faster than RedBull)
    Hamilton's reliability was not worse than Vettel's as you suggested (2 DNFs each).
    Hamilton had 3 more DNFs due to accidents when Vettel had none.

    So you are only left with your claim of "Operational errors". RBR also had a few ones like insufficient fuel sample in Abu Dhabi sending Vettel to the back of the grid. McLaren did the same at Spain sending Lewis to the back of the grid.

    It is nonsensical whitewashing to claim McLaren's the operational issues would cause that many points difference compared to RBR's issues. If McLaren made operational errors that somehow caused Lewis 7 points a race ( P1 -> P2, P2 -P5, P3 -> P6, etc), they have to screw up 13 races in a 20 race season to make up 91 points....

    I am sure you also have a bunch of excuses for 2011 when Button was runner up in WDC where Lewis was P5 in the same car.
    Are you trying to say that Vettel is a better driver than Hamilton? Because the evidence from the last 2 years doesn’t support that idea very much. The amount of mistakes Vettel has made must be running into double figures by now. That is something you really don’t expect from a seasoned pro especially a 4 time world champion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonecrasher View Post
    Are you trying to say that Vettel is a better driver than Hamilton? Because the evidence from the last 2 years doesn’t support that idea very much. The amount of mistakes Vettel has made must be running into double figures by now. That is something you really don’t expect from a seasoned pro especially a 4 time world champion.
    I concur with you, Bonecrasher.

  26. #806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonecrasher View Post
    Are you trying to say that Vettel is a better driver than Hamilton? Because the evidence from the last 2 years doesn’t support that idea very much. The amount of mistakes Vettel has made must be running into double figures by now. That is something you really don’t expect from a seasoned pro especially a 4 time world champion.
    The amount of mistakes Hamilton has made must be running into triple figures by now. Just look at how many titles he lost due to his poor performance, you only have to look at his total titles before he signed up for the rocketship Mercedes - 1. Yeah he won just title and that's his real level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    The amount of mistakes Hamilton has made must be running into triple figures by now. Just look at how many titles he lost due to his poor performance, you only have to look at his total titles before he signed up for the rocketship Mercedes - 1. Yeah he won just title and that's his real level.
    LOL his only challenge would be Alonso who is leaving, after that there is nobody on his level and that's the way it is.
    Forza Ferrari

  28. #808
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    LOL his only challenge would be Alonso who is leaving, after that there is nobody on his level and that's the way it is.
    Pretty much, all the grind of 2009-2012 and battling Rosberg has made him a formidable driver, both skill wise & mentally
    “I prefer to beat them on Sunday” -Fernando Alonso, Press Conference Korean GP 2010

    "Giornata fantastica !!"- Andrea Stella, European GP 2012


  29. #809
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    The amount of mistakes Hamilton has made must be running into triple figures by now. Just look at how many titles he lost due to his poor performance, you only have to look at his total titles before he signed up for the rocketship Mercedes - 1. Yeah he won just title and that's his real level.
    Blah blah blah... the fact is, after this year's championship, Hamilton will be 5-time WDC. And the amount of WDC Vettel managed to win driving for Ferrari is big fat ZERO. When the car showed promise, Vettel has thrown big points away. Even the majority of the tifosi,including myself, have lost faith in him, and I suspect Ferrari itself to some extent hence getting rid of ol' faithful Kimi to replace him with a promising young talent. I doubt they're bringing in Leclerc just to force him to be Vettel's wingman.

    Sure, there is perhaps extra pressure to drive for Ferrari, but Ferrari didn't tell Vettel to or make him do silly mistakes this season.

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    Arrivabene: Vettel will be world champion in a Ferrari

    Maurizio Arrivabene is not a man of many words in the Formula 1 paddock, but out of the confines of the circus, he is understandably very passionate about Ferrari, the sport’s greatest team he has managed since 2014.

    The team principal was a guest speaker at the Festival della Sport, on stage at the Teatro Sociale in Trento, where Arrivabene was questioned about the pressure he feels at the helm of the Scuderia.

    He replied, “When we talk about Formula 1 we immediately think of Ferrari because it is in the DNA of this sport. Is there too much pressure? I wouldn’t say so, on the contrary, we have to thank everyone for the passion they have for our team. This love has to make us strive to do better and better.”

    On being chosen to lead the Reds, the 61-year-old opened up, “It gave me great pride to be chosen for this role. I do not have the Prancing Horse only on my jacket, I also have it in my heart.”

    As for the highlight of his season thus far, “Among the most beautiful victories I remember was at Silverstone, the home of Formula 1. I always try to be calm and cool on the pitwall, I try not to show my feelings but this time I could not hide the great emotion of winning that grand prix.”

    Kimi Raikkonen and Sebastian Vettel are the drivers currently under his watch, next year young Charles Leclerc joins the team. The veteran Finn. a long time soldier and Ferrari’s last World Champion when he won the title in 2007, departs at the end of the season marking an end of an era.

    Many believe that the announcement Raikkonen would leave the team was premature and, for whatever reason, did coincide with the team’s dismal dip in form since their home Italian Grand Prix in early September.

    Critics suggesting that the timing of the announcement did not do much to encourage Raikkonen to be a team player in their championship quest, particularly when coming to the aid of Vettel when it really mattered.

    But Arrivabene explained, “I have worked with Kimi for many years, he is a great professional and wanted to know before Monza what our plans were for 2019. For that reason, we confirmed the arrival of Leclerc.”

    “We replaced Raikkonen to allow a talented youngster like Leclerc to grow alongside a champion like Vettel. Raikkonen will race another two years with Sauber, with us he would not have gone beyond 2019. Despite the news, Kimi showed that he is a great professional at Monza.”

    With four rounds remaining in this year’s championship, the chances of a first F1 title in a decade for the Reds is bleak despite ruling the roost earlier this season. Heading to next round, in the United States, Vettel trails drivers’ championship leader Lewis Hamilton by 67 points while Ferrari are 78 points adrift of Mercedes in the constructors’ title race.

    After a below par Japanese Grand Prix, Arrivabene declared that their task was “mission impossible” and repeated it to the audience on Saturday, “It has become a mission impossible, but it’s not over.”

    “In Austin, if we leave beaten I want to say clearly: I am sure that sooner or later Sebastian Vettel will win the world championship at the wheel of a Ferrari.”

    “I think he has something of Schumacher in him, he is German but also very Italian and passionate about Maranello from an early age,” concluded Arrivabene referencing Vettel’s maiden victory at the 2008 Italian Grand Prix in a Ferrari powered Toro Rosso.


    https://www.grandprix247.com/2018/10...-in-a-ferrari/

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