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Thread: F1 must make effort to solve overtaking problem, says Brawn

  1. #1
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    F1 must make effort to solve overtaking problem, says Brawn

    Ross Brawn says the Australian Grand Prix missed the “vital ingredient” of overtaking and that the problem won’t be fixed until Formula 1 takes a structured approach towards rectifying it.

    Only five overtakes were completed in the season-opening race following the first lap and Red Bull’s Max Verstappen said he would have turned the TV off rather than watch a “worthless” grand prix.

    It came despite the fact the Albert Park track, known for being difficult to pass on, was bolstered with a third DRS zone in the hope of improving the wheel-to-wheel action.

    Brawn, F1’s managing director of motorsports, admits that F1 missed out on a number of exciting battles in Australia because of the inability to overtake.

    “One vital ingredient was missing, namely overtaking, as there were really very few passing moves in this opening round,” he said.

    “It's vital that the cars are capable of getting close to one another and racing wheel to wheel.

    “When there is only a small speed gap between two cars then it's almost impossible for the pursuer to get close enough to mount an attack.

    “We saw that yesterday with [Lewis] Hamilton and [Sebastien] Vettel, Verstappen and [Kevin] Magnussen and again the Dutchman and [Fernando] Alonso and with [Daniel] Ricciardo and [Kimi] Raikkonen.

    "Think of how much wheel-to-wheel dicing we missed out on. And, for the very first time, we even had a third DRS zone specifically to increase the chances of overtaking.”

    F1’s current regulations were introduced in 2017 and played a part in the number of overtakes falling by almost 50 percent in its first year.

    Brawn had set up a panel of independent panel of experts to better F1, including improving overtaking, and he says that a structured approach is needed to fix on-track passing.

    “Until we take a structured approach to the problem, we won't really make any progress,” said Brawn.

    “One of our aims, which we are looking at with the FIA and the teams is that, for 2021, we want to have cars that allow drivers to really fight one another on track.

    “To that end, the FIA and F1 are carrying out an aerodynamic research programme with two car models, both in the windtunnel and using CFD.

    “We need to evolve a car design that achieves close to the level of performance we now see but permits wheel-to-wheel action.”

    Brawn added that pleasing fans is a big incentive to improve overtaking.

    “Formula 1 fans want to see a better show and overtaking is the most exciting and spectacular element you can have on track,” he said.

    “The whole Formula 1 community must make an effort to satisfy this need because the fans are our biggest asset.”

    https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/b...ourne-1019316/
    CAVALLINO RAMPANTE PER SEMPRE

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    Of course this issue is not new. I'm broad stroking the canvas with a huge paint brush when I say this but F1 needs to be "dumb" downed......aero, PU, data software (IT dept), fuel flow rates, unlimited testing needs to come back.

    Things that need to be thrown out the window: efficiency, PU limits, restricted fuel flow rates, engine modes, 7 tyre compounds---> F1 needs to stop being "green" or "PC" correct (sorry about getting political but such is the nature of things given todays and future mindsets of the up and coming).

    F1 needs to be FULL ON PEDAL TO THE MEDAL RACING.....not this crap we have currently all for the sake of road relevance.

    If the car manufacturers want to start a new series to enhance their road relevance investment.....let em....they are the "she-dogs" of F1, coming and leaving at their own expense at the expense of others....except Ferrari who has stayed the longest.

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    F1 will never be dumbed down and neither it should.
    Forza Ferrari

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    So far they haven't figured out, after decades of no passing. I'm not holding my breath this time either. You really have to take all aero efficiency off the car and bring back mechanical grip. Haven't we be saying this since the dawn of time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brawnydog View Post
    So far they haven't figured out, after decades of no passing. I'm not holding my breath this time either. You really have to take all aero efficiency off the car and bring back mechanical grip. Haven't we be saying this since the dawn of time?

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    yep, that's one of the aspects. Even Mario Andretti seems to think so along with other former F1 drivers.


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    Well then just make the tracks ovals like NASCAR. Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Of course this issue is not new. I'm broad stroking the canvas with a huge paint brush when I say this but F1 needs to be "dumb" downed......aero, PU, data software (IT dept), fuel flow rates, unlimited testing needs to come back.

    Things that need to be thrown out the window: efficiency, PU limits, restricted fuel flow rates, engine modes, 7 tyre compounds---> F1 needs to stop being "green" or "PC" correct (sorry about getting political but such is the nature of things given todays and future mindsets of the up and coming).

    F1 needs to be FULL ON PEDAL TO THE MEDAL RACING.....not this crap we have currently all for the sake of road relevance.

    If the car manufacturers want to start a new series to enhance their road relevance investment.....let em....they are the "she-dogs" of F1, coming and leaving at their own expense at the expense of others....except Ferrari who has stayed the longest.
    +1000%

    You are spot on. The PC movement has ruined F1 racing. Fuel restrictions, excessive safety measures, cost controls, mandatory tires, refueling restrictions, etc. were all implemented to appease an overblown “Green” agenda. The FIA caved to PC pressure without fully thinking through the ramifications of such draconian measures.

    Now before I get flamed for mentioning safety measures, please understand that I do not wish to return to the 1970’s regulations, but some of the rules in place today are ridiculous. Refueling is not unsafe. It is a vital part of race strategy and should return. Virtual Safety Car is not needed. Either get the Safety Car on the track or use local yellows. The Halo is another unnecessary feature and should be eliminated.

    Testing bans need to be lifted so teams can develop their programs throughout the season. Yes, it is expensive, but it’s an integral part of racing. F1 is supposed to be on the cutting edge of technology. Limiting testing only prevents teams from attaining peak performance, and should have never been a part of F1.

    If Brawn truly wishes to bring excitement back to Grand Prix weekends, he will need to overcome the PC crowd at the FIA and roll back the strangling regulations of the last decade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hajj View Post
    +1000%

    You are spot on. The PC movement has ruined F1 racing. Fuel restrictions, excessive safety measures, cost controls, mandatory tires, refueling restrictions, etc. were all implemented to appease an overblown “Green” agenda. The FIA caved to PC pressure without fully thinking through the ramifications of such draconian measures.

    Now before I get flamed for mentioning safety measures, please understand that I do not wish to return to the 1970’s regulations, but some of the rules in place today are ridiculous. Refueling is not unsafe. It is a vital part of race strategy and should return. Virtual Safety Car is not needed. Either get the Safety Car on the track or use local yellows. The Halo is another unnecessary feature and should be eliminated.

    Testing bans need to be lifted so teams can develop their programs throughout the season. Yes, it is expensive, but it’s an integral part of racing. F1 is supposed to be on the cutting edge of technology. Limiting testing only prevents teams from attaining peak performance, and should have never been a part of F1.

    If Brawn truly wishes to bring excitement back to Grand Prix weekends, he will need to overcome the PC crowd at the FIA and roll back the strangling regulations of the last decade.
    All in agreement here. I would also like to see a return to full ICE engine, preferably V10. They sounded amazing and I personally feel that's part of the excitement for the fans at the track. My opinion only.

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    this has been the talk all these years.
    There are lot of solutions for it, few in my view
    1. Remove fuel restriction
    2. Remove Engine limit
    3. Change Tyre compounds (this year it’s less narrow window between tyre compounds)

    Above 3 r enough to make race exciting.

    Else other solutions change engine regulations return to V10’s n push like a hell. That’s what makes race is exciting.

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    Increasing braking distances and removing aero is the only way to improve overtaking.....
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    Not the first we hear this after Australia, it was even after 2011 and then there was "too much" overtaking on some tracks. People used to complain about high-degrading tyres but when the races were at their most exciting? In 2011-2013 when we had two or three stops per race. One stop races were boring in 2010 as well. That should increasing overtaking.

    Yes, effienciency formula, which is in effect from 2014, is not making racing any favours. Instead of focusing on actual racing, driver has to control fuel, engine modes and temperatures. Of course I know we had fuel and tyre saving before that but it was in far less degree. Now a driver is wary of being too fast/slow because the engine will drop into less effective mode and they have only 3 engines per season as well...

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    I'll take quality over quantity of overtakes any day. That's important to me and I hope Ross too. None of this push to pass rubbish. To see a driver trying a move, and keep you on the edge of your seat for 7 laps, will he won't he, it's the stuff racing is made of. I remember many a race with only 1 or 2 overtakes at the head of the field, but they ticked every box for excitement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosso Corsa View Post
    I'll take quality over quantity of overtakes any day. That's important to me and I hope Ross too. None of this push to pass rubbish. To see a driver trying a move, and keep you on the edge of your seat for 7 laps, will he won't he, it's the stuff racing is made of. I remember many a race with only 1 or 2 overtakes at the head of the field, but they ticked every box for excitement.

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    Yes the fuel and engine saving have to go. This was doomed to fail passing from the get go and it shows.

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    Brawn says overtaking etc. is what excites fans and is needed. Except back at Ferrari when he and the midget were into holding back their driver so the other can pass him. He's into overtaking!! What a hypocrite bum he was and obviously still is. Throw in the "Legend" midget Todt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    Brawn says overtaking etc. is what excites fans and is needed. Except back at Ferrari when he and the midget were into holding back their driver so the other can pass him. He's into overtaking!! What a hypocrite bum he was and obviously still is. Throw in the "Legend" midget Todt
    Seems he's only into overtaking now after witnessing Hamilton unable to pass Vettel. Overtaking has been a problem for a long time now. It's seems the FIA, SKY and Liberty have one thing in mind, keep Mercedes ontop and rapper boy winning.
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    Another ferrari regect brawn and todd should start there own f1 series and pull there own cash out of there pockets unstead of trying to spend every other teams money with there ever changing f1 ideas.

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    I personally find the issue of overtaking quite funny...
    Let's go back to the 80's where turbo engines were the norm, and... Ferrari was fast, but blew up just a little too much...( I digress)...
    then there were very many possibilities of overtaking, and overtaking was the norm when a fast car approached a slower car, and when evenly matched, there were a few passes too... but...(here is my point)... do we forget how more often than not, winners ended up 30 + seconds or more up the road from their nearest rivals, and lapping cars up to even 4th and 5th was more norm than not, and domination by manufacturers happened back then... so fixing overtaking will not resolve anything, there is always a cycle where one is superior to another... so I say. careful what you wish for... DRS and whatever other artificial assistance that may be added for overtaking ease... does not seem a good road to follow....in my opinion.

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    More HP! Get pole and up 2 seconds of the line. There's no one around you to have to pass!

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    I think tracks are partly to blame also. Need to be a bit wider. No more street tracks. Sorry Australia and Canada. Monaco can stay only because of the glamour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Increasing braking distances and removing aero is the only way to improve overtaking.....
    I agree. That's basicly the way to do it without dumbing down the evolution already made over the years to the entire formula. Longer braking distances (worse breaks and discs) and less DF would give bold drivers the opportunity to pass if they dare to break later. Sure, that's not a politically correct view as it would increase the danger element further but PC is what basicly already is killing societies nowdays.

    Brawn will never succeed if he thinks "dumbing down F1" (engine evolution) is the way to go.

    On the other hand, I've always wondered what's so special about a lot of overtaking in races? Should racing only be about overtaking all the time beause certain conditions at a given time let the trailing car to do so (like DRS and the battery)? I never understood that. I thought racing was all about getting to the flag first.

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    They are doing a technical investigation to change aerodinámica rules for 2021, brawn says it need to be a Holistic change, all the car

    https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/b...tions-1020664/


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    Changes for 2019 to help overtaking approved by F1 Commission:

    Simplified front wing, with larger span & low outwash potential
    Simplified front brake duct with no winglets
    Wider, deeper rear wing
    FIA: “studies indicated strong likelihood of positive impact on racing & overtaking”


    With the potential new F1 aero rule changes for 2019, here's a video from last year explaining the problem of outwash-wake with overtaking.

    How 'dirty air' makes overtaking so hard in F1

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdWF...ature=youtu.be

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    Brawn threw the midget under the pass charlie whiting controls what little chances there are to overtake he holds the key with his safety car calls i wonder who is instucting him?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
    Ross Brawn says the Australian Grand Prix missed the “vital ingredient” of overtaking and that the problem won’t be fixed until Formula 1 takes a structured approach towards rectifying it.
    Could not agree more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brawnydog View Post
    I think tracks are partly to blame also. Need to be a bit wider. No more street tracks. Sorry Australia and Canada. Monaco can stay only because of the glamour.

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    Yup. Tilke tracks are absolutely boring. Having said that, so is Monaco, so.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso View Post
    Yup. Tilke tracks are absolutely boring. Having said that, so is Monaco, so.....
    Don't get your undies in a wad but it looks like Miami is going to join in the fray of street tracks....2019 looks possible. They (city of Miami) have posted 2 proposals in the works,

    One of the proposals has the track going over a long curved bridge (yes over water)..both ways which looks to be the overtaking zones.

    Yeah, I'm not a fan of street tracks either with exception towards Baku..it is growing on me.

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    I don't think more overtakes would make F1 any more interesting or exciting for aficionados or novices. I also don't think that dumbing down F1 is a solution.

    IMO it's quite simple what F1 needs - racing. Wheel to wheel racing. It makes little to no difference if the racing ends in an overtake or not, just as long as the fans see racing.

    It's also seems obvious to me how to get to pure racing. Remove mountains of rules and regulations. That will produce innovation and free teams to make rapid improvements to either leap ahead or catch up in the space of a race or two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Don't get your undies in a wad but it looks like Miami is going to join in the fray of street tracks....2019 looks possible. They (city of Miami) have posted 2 proposals in the works,

    One of the proposals has the track going over a long curved bridge (yes over water)..both ways which looks to be the overtaking zones.

    Yeah, I'm not a fan of street tracks either with exception towards Baku..it is growing on me.
    I wonder what circuits on the current calendar will be cut to make room for the likes of Miami, Vietnam and Argentina? Liberty has said 21 races is the maximum and the european amount will not decrease. On the bright side, the more circuits they cut from the current calendar the easier it will be for a breakaway series to establish themselves in the 2020's as the circuits that will be cut will be up for grabs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enjaybel3 View Post
    I don't think more overtakes would make F1 any more interesting or exciting for aficionados or novices. I also don't think that dumbing down F1 is a solution.

    IMO it's quite simple what F1 needs - racing. Wheel to wheel racing. It makes little to no difference if the racing ends in an overtake or not, just as long as the fans see racing.

    It's also seems obvious to me how to get to pure racing. Remove mountains of rules and regulations. That will produce innovation and free teams to make rapid improvements to either leap ahead or catch up in the space of a race or two.
    If you free the rules the distance between cars will be measured in seconds and not tenths.


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    I just don't understand the hatred towards Monaco. It's one of my favorite races on the calendar. The track requires an incredible amount of skill and precision, and rarely disappoints me.

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