2018 Spanish GP: RACE

[ScuderiaBuckeye]

Look 512TR, I'm quite stumbled to. I was for sure thinking the tests would go for the older compound but I was wrong and have to take Sebs word for what it is.

We really have alot of work to do. I don't know what we did wrong with Seb's car. Maybe the set-up was all wrong or too much downforce....I really don't know. I do know about Kimi's car...I mean we can put an engine back in 2hrs when both teams work together but we can't put a new engine overnight

We are going up against one of the most organized teams in all aspects and we cannot be making blunders like this. The only blunder Mercedes has made this year was some computer software having to do with the safety car...that's it (or at least I can remember). As much as I hate and loathe them, they run almost perfect!!!


Btw Vettel said that the car was exactly the same like on Sunday. No changes or updates.....

Now you wonder if this is all an exercise in futility and today would have been better spent regaining your footing w/ the soft tires that you used to win pole and race in Bahrain.

I believe the way to win this title has been shown at Bahrain and China if Ferrari will only see it and embrace it.

If we spend the rest of the season trying to go toe-to-toe w/ Merc on the medium tires we lose.

[Greig]

Your so called point is totally irrelevant as you have no knowledge of how much the original spec tyres would have affected Merc relatively to Ferrari and neither does Seb. Most people just think this is some sort of a linear problem that affects everyone the same. So just because Merc was 1 second faster with the new tyres they must have been at least that much faster with the original ones as well, and the changes done by Pirelli was for safety reasons. You're of course, like an ostrich with his head in the sand, free to believe whatever you want. Just don't call it facts because some people might actually believe that.

My point is Seb says we would have been worse off, nothing to do with Merc, your the one saying he is lying and you want to call me an ostrich lol, you make something up without any foundation.

You posted many times in this thread before the race how it was a Merc track, Lewis track, Merc good here etc etc......so they were strong because of tyres or strong because it's a track that suits them very well?

[512 TR]

My point is Seb says we would have been worse off, nothing to do with Merc, your the one saying he is lying and you want to call me an ostrich lol, you make something up without any foundation.

Yes, worse off compared to our selves on the original tyres. So what? Where would that have left us compared to Merc if the race would have been run on the original spec? No one knows and that's exactly the problem and the core of the entire issue. It's irrelevant if we would have been worse off if we can't put that in context to how Merc would have done. At least agree with that because that's the only fact regarding this issue. You might be faster than me on a skateboard and I might be faster than you on inlines, right? So where does that leave us?

You posted many times in this thread before the race how it was a Merc track, Lewis track, Merc good here etc etc......so they were strong because of tyres or strong because it's a track that suits them very well?

Yes, yes and yes. There is a good chance Merc might have been quicker on the original spec as well but we'll never know now. Again, why didn't just Pirelli bring the super hard and the hard tyres to Barcelona? Wouldn't that have been the easiest solution and also the most fair one? They knew about these "problems" months ago. The follow up question must then be that maybe relatively to Ferrari they would have been slower on those compounds as well. Prove me wrong on that point. You can't.

[Greig]

So good chance they would have been quicker regardless of the tyres..no we will never know but it's not that far fetched to think they would have been good here with the other tyres just as they were in testing....Pirelli said the alternative to 0.4mm off the tread was to bring harder compounds....I don't think Ferrari would want harder compounds as we seem to struggle as the tyres get harder.

[512 TR]

So good chance they would have been quicker regardless of the tyres..no we will never know but it's not that far fetched to think they would have been good here with the other tyres just as they were in testing....Pirelli said the alternative to 0.4mm off the tread was to bring harder compounds....I don't think Ferrari would want harder compounds as we seem to struggle as the tyres get harder.

With harder compounds at least there wouldn't have been any controversy and accusations of favoritism towards Merc. So what's the next step of in-season changes? Who'll come up with the next request and will it be tyres again or something directly towards the FIA? Because now it's seems it's free for all as there is a precedent in play.

Sometimes it feels this is exactly what Liberty wants.

[Greig]

With harder compounds at least there wouldn't have been any controversy and accusations of favoritism towards Merc. So what's the next step of in-season changes? Who'll come up with the next request and will it be tyres again or something directly towards the FIA? Because now it's seems it's free for all as there is a precedent in play.

Sometimes it feels this is exactly what Liberty wants.

If they brought harder tyres many on here would say it was to help Merc just the same as this change or when they increase tyre pressures etc etc.

[512 TR]

If they brought harder tyres many on here would say it was to help Merc just the same as this change or when they increase tyre pressures etc etc.

Maybe some would but I wouldn't as it at least would have been consistent with the problems reported during winter testing. Blister or higher wear then go harder. Coming up with a 2.0 version of the middle compounds is just wrong and borders on bringing the sport into disrepute. This season will have at least 10 different dry weather compounds. It's a joke really.

[Christopher]

I think the car just doesn't suit the high deg circuits so Ferrari will be in trouble for Sliverstone as well because we were also off the pace in pre season testing

[ScuderiaBuckeye]

Here is an ESPN article on today's test w/ some good quotes from Vettel at the end. I rescind what I said earlier about today's test possibly being a waste of time as it sounds like Vettel did a pretty extensive comparison of the tires and can now comfortably say the problem is w/ Ferrari and how they set up the car. I have put a couple of his comments in bold.

BARCELONA, Spain -- After doing back to back tests in Barcelona on Tuesday, Sebastian Vettel says Pirelli was right to bring thinner tread tyres to the Spanish Grand Prix last weekend.

After Mercedes outpaced Ferrari throughout the race weekend in Spain there were suggestions that Pirelli's decision to bring thinner tread tyres gave a benefit to Mercedes. The decision was based examples of overheating and blistering at the same circuit during pre-season testing, which was partly due to a lack of wear on the new, smooth track surface, which was relaid over the winter.

The more rubber on the tyre, the more heat it retains -- and without the normal level of wear the surface of the tyre was getting so hot through Barcelona's high-speed corners that it started to blister. In agreement with the FIA, a decision was made to reduce the thickness of the tyres by 0.4mm for the Spanish, French and British Grands Prix in an attempt to avoid a repeat in the races.

As part of Ferrari's investigations into its lack of race pace on Tuesday, Vettel tested standard tread versions of the soft and medium compounds as well as thin tread tyres in a back to back comparisons. The thick tread tyres came back with obvious signs of overheating and Vettel admitted after the session that they would have exacerbated Ferrari's issues if they had been used on Sunday.
Sebastian Vettel tested Pirelli's normal tyres on Tuesday and had even more issues than he had on Sunday. David Ramos/Getty Images

"I think it's pretty straightforward," he said. "Obviously you don't get the chance to revisit this kind of decisions that are made [very often], but we did it today and the result is that if we had had the normal tyres on Sunday, it would have probably been worse, so it was the correct call. It was our fault for not having the same tyre wear or life as other people."

Vettel said Ferrari used Tuesday's test to work on improvements in an attempt to solve the issues it faced over the Spanish Grand Prix weekend.

"It's good to have the test to be able to compare and I think we have some ideas. Now it's up to us to turn those ideas into reality. As I said it was good in terms of timing, coming from a poor weekend for us, we were not quick enough and more than not being quick enough we were struggling to make the tyres last -- these things have a link -- so it was good to have a possibility to revisit it and now it's up to us to take action.

"Obviously it looked like from the outside they [Mercedes] had a stronger weekend, without any big issues, but we need to look at ourselves, focus on our car and our problems, so we'll be stronger again."

[Tony]

Do you think there's any credibility to those rumors, Tony? I can't imagine Mercedes would share anything with Ferrari, especially since Ferrari did such a great job last year.

To be honest, I don't want to believe there is... but I really don't know either way :(

[458 Italia]

We haven't heard from the Horse Whisperer recently have we? I would have thought last weekends controversy would've been right up his street to have an outing from the stable.

[Stormy]

So if its not the tires and Merc didn't bring new massive upgrades, what could it be? We lack performance on tracks with fast corners?

[ScuderiaBuckeye]

So if its not the tires and Merc didn't bring new massive upgrades, what could it be? We lack performance on tracks with fast corners?

It looks to be nothing more complicated than that Ferrari has got their setups wrong.

Ultimately I believe the team is still having correlation issues between what they do on a computer vs. what happens in real life on a race track. This was said to be the case w/ the team in preseason testing.

Not in Ferrari's DNA to build a car in a computer. Whatever they do for next agreement they need to demand return of in season testing so they can run the current-year car at Fiorano and work out the kinks as the season progresses. Make some kind of compromise elsewhere to get this back, even if it means giving up free money.

Championships > Appearance Fees

[nani_s23]

So the theory of Anderson & Amus posted after Barcelona winter testing is right. Ferrari 3rd fastest car, which became true in last race. it’s track specific. Silverstone might be trouble for us.

[Brembo]

so if we assume RBR will be fastest car in Monaco, that would make Ricciardo favourite as Max will probably crash at some point

If anything Max will crash the podium again maybe even a win if he can get along side Lewis !!

[zike]

So the theory of Anderson & Amus posted after Barcelona winter testing is right. Ferrari 3rd fastest car, which became true in last race. it’s track specific. Silverstone might be trouble for us.

If we are slow here we will be slow petty much everywhere

[nani_s23]

If we are slow here we will be slow petty much everywhere

Don’t think so such equation exists. We were competitive in 3 of 5 races.
It’s all about winning habbit, mercs are used to it & they are getting together to extract maximum. Where as Ferrari are succumbed to pressure doing lot of mistakes.

[JPBD]

My concern is actually mostly the oil burning through turbo/deploying extra battery power rumours. If the FIA is close on our tail about it, Ferrari may have been inclined to forego those questionable technologies which may be what left us so far behind.

On race pace, it was just tyres. Fact is we would have finished 2nd or 3rd if we weren’t chewing through them as much as we were.

Potentially this could indicate how we ordinarily set the car up to fire up the tyres. We’ve been more successful than others in previous races, potentially it was simply too harsh for this tyre/track/event. Monaco will be interesting. If we’re 3rd fastest, I think it’s confirmation that some of our technologies are excluded from the car. If we’re fast again, Barcelona was a blip. Exciting times, but for Ferrari fans - so very stressful. I’m so afraid that the reason for our speed has been things that are of questionable legality. Hopefully not.

[nani_s23]

My concern is actually mostly the oil burning through turbo/deploying extra battery power rumours. If the FIA is close on our tail about it, Ferrari may have been inclined to forego those questionable technologies which may be what left us so far behind.

On race pace, it was just tyres. Fact is we would have finished 2nd or 3rd if we weren’t chewing through them as much as we were.

Potentially this could indicate how we ordinarily set the car up to fire up the tyres. We’ve been more successful than others in previous races, potentially it was simply too harsh for this tyre/track/event. Monaco will be interesting. If we’re 3rd fastest, I think it’s confirmation that some of our technologies are excluded from the car. If we’re fast again, Barcelona was a blip. Exciting times, but for Ferrari fans - so very stressful. I’m so afraid that the reason for our speed has been things that are of questionable legality. Hopefully not.

I read the articles abt Ferrari legality issue abt battery. At the same time, those articles indicated its tough to prove that Ferrari technology is illegal. So the teams were asking about clarification on it not a ban.
So FIA might give clearance for this year or may say it’s legitimate. So that other teams can adopt such technology

[mardyrt]

My question is, who is leaking this information to other teams. It cannot be just photos, because battery pack is buried deep in the car. Especially, to know that there is a 2nd ECU just for the battery! This type of stuff cannot be just people taking photos. Someone from inside the team had to talk, or FIA source leaked. If that, FIA leaked from their source, those type of people need to put on court and loose job and ban from working in F1. Just like McLaren had a dossier about the Ferrari, and people go banned, same thing should happen to anyone who leak this type of info to the outside. Its FIA's job to do their job to keep everything legal, and find out. If they cannot find out by themselves, then why are they there??

[nani_s23]

My question is, who is leaking this information to other teams. It cannot be just photos, because battery pack is buried deep in the car. Especially, to know that there is a 2nd ECU just for the battery! This type of stuff cannot be just people taking photos. Someone from inside the team had to talk, or FIA source leaked. If that, FIA leaked from their source, those type of people need to put on court and loose job and ban from working in F1. Just like McLaren had a dossier about the Ferrari, and people go banned, same thing should happen to anyone who leak this type of info to the outside. Its FIA's job to do their job to keep everything legal, and find out. If they cannot find out by themselves, then why are they there??

Ex Ferrari employee now joined mercs

[paolo lalli]

Loose lips sink ships .

[Ferrarichamp]

why do F1 engineers not have non-disclosure clauses in their contracts as they do in others fields. They should not be permitted to share technical secrets for at least one year.

[Ed Harley]

You would not be able to monitor such clause. Typically they have the gardening leave of six months or so.

[jgonzalesm6]

Reports today is that Charlie Whiting and the FIA have checked and studied the Energy Store of Scuderia Ferrari and will issue a directive before the Monaco Grand Prix.

[zike]

Reports today is that Charlie Whiting and the FIA have checked and studied the Energy Store of Scuderia Ferrari and will issue a directive before the Monaco Grand Prix.

so we are done

[Rob]

Here's the W09 after the Spanish GP at Parc Ferme

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdL9IpWWAAADZYv.jpg (rear diffuser)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdL9tK0W4AMbcFj.jpg (rear diffuser)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdL-dwUX4AE_Ldm.jpg (left tyre after the race)

No one has indicated this a "new diffuser" that I'm aware of.

https://www.f1technical.net/forum/vi...7059&start=525

[jgonzalesm6]

https://www.f1technical.net/forum/vi...7059&start=525

yes....please refer to post #601 on the same thread.

[jgonzalesm6]

Spanish GP rear suspension and aero device....Ferrari

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdTj3Y0X0AEM5TO.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdP-NTpW0AEBHNT.jpg

[JPBD]

I read the articles abt Ferrari legality issue abt battery. At the same time, those articles indicated its tough to prove that Ferrari technology is illegal. So the teams were asking about clarification on it not a ban.
So FIA might give clearance for this year or may say it’s legitimate. So that other teams can adopt such technology

Hopefully it is all smoke and mirrors from Mercedes to take some of the heat off from the weekends relatively unpopular (based on twitter) victory. However, a threat to protest is quite rare. This indicates Mercedes are quite confident that we are in breach of the regulations. Ultimtely, I have no idea. However, I’m certainly keen to see how we stack up in Monaco and Canada to better understand our true pace relative to others

It’s been a very odd start to the season...