View Poll Results: Is sebastian Vettel shooting himself in the foot?

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  • Strongly Agree

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  • Agree

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  • drivers make mistakes, just support him and get behind him for WDC push

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Thread: Is sebastian Vettel shooting himself in the foot?

  1. #31
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    Well said !! There's more to racing than following orders, and what if , not taking a chance. Racing "Passing the other driver" !!

  2. #32
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    He is making a critical error costing him points every 3.6 races at this pace, so he's due for about 3 more before the season ends.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScuderiaBuckeye View Post
    He is making a critical error costing him points every 3.6 races at this pace, so he's due for about 3 more before the season ends.
    There was a time before Ferrari, where mainly the car and what skill he had took him to WDC. I think being up front in them days cost him the much needed experience in the crowd of 6 to 10 racing to get up front. Even with his great understanding team mate Kimi moving over etc. he has big time error probs. Max for ex. went from the crash king at this forum to , well look at how he's doing now. Dan's #1 enemy! and top 4 his home for him. I feel bad for him getting beat in Germany but I above all am interested in WCC for Ferrari. Maybe he should be letting Kimi pass? And the best car to KImi, even give him a real engine! There's still WCC time for sure. Meanwhile Lewis from 14 to 1st. in a not so easy race, well he's not Ferrari but that was some good driving. What nerve him feeling good about it !!

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    There was a time before Ferrari, where mainly the car and what skill he had took him to WDC. I think being up front in them days cost him the much needed experience in the crowd of 6 to 10 racing to get up front. Even with his great understanding team mate Kimi moving over etc. he has big time error probs. Max for ex. went from the crash king at this forum to , well look at how he's doing now. Dan's #1 enemy! and top 4 his home for him. I feel bad for him getting beat in Germany but I above all am interested in WCC for Ferrari. Maybe he should be letting Kimi pass? And the best car to KImi, even give him a real engine! There's still WCC time for sure. Meanwhile Lewis from 14 to 1st. in a not so easy race, well he's not Ferrari but that was some good driving. What nerve him feeling good about it !!
    And who exactly did Hamilton overtake? Ricciardo retired, Verstappen was 1 minute behind due to wrong wet tyre stop, Vettel crashed, Bottas and Kimi pitted so they came behind. Yeah, Hamilton had to overtake no top driver on track just like Silverstone.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    And who exactly did Hamilton overtake? Ricciardo retired, Verstappen was 1 minute behind due to wrong wet tyre stop, Vettel crashed, Bottas and Kimi pitted so they came behind. Yeah, Hamilton had to overtake no top driver on track just like Silverstone.
    This seems to be one of the biggest factors in HAM always coming good as regards points finishes, he always gains from external circumstances. OK so he has had one DNF this year, but apart from that he's been lucky to be in the right place to extract the maximum result. It still makes me cringe when he gets all the plaudits if he has to 'fight' from behind, when most of those he's passing are in inferior cars. Unfortunately Seb has had to fight much harder and maybe take more risks because he doesn't always have his team-mate as rear-gunner, but at this stage in his career I do think he needs to maintain a calmer approach. Frustration is a horrible motivation and leads to all sorts of emotions in the cockpit, and as he was stuck behind a slower Kimi in Germany, he had to regain the momentum to distance himself from the chasing HAM and BOT, knowing that his tyres were the least likely to be optimal. He therefore overdid it and we know the sad result.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by wisepie View Post
    This seems to be one of the biggest factors in HAM always coming good as regards points finishes, he always gains from external circumstances. OK so he has had one DNF this year, but apart from that he's been lucky to be in the right place to extract the maximum result. It still makes me cringe when he gets all the plaudits if he has to 'fight' from behind, when most of those he's passing are in inferior cars. Unfortunately Seb has had to fight much harder and maybe take more risks because he doesn't always have his team-mate as rear-gunner, but at this stage in his career I do think he needs to maintain a calmer approach. Frustration is a horrible motivation and leads to all sorts of emotions in the cockpit, and as he was stuck behind a slower Kimi in Germany, he had to regain the momentum to distance himself from the chasing HAM and BOT, knowing that his tyres were the least likely to be optimal. He therefore overdid it and we know the sad result.
    Well said.
    We're doomed, Cap'n Mainwaring, doomed I tell ye!

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    And who exactly did Hamilton overtake? Ricciardo retired, Verstappen was 1 minute behind due to wrong wet tyre stop, Vettel crashed, Bottas and Kimi pitted so they came behind. Yeah, Hamilton had to overtake no top driver on track just like Silverstone.
    With all that goings on you mention, why didn't someone else win? Lewis overtook whoever he had to , however he had to and almost won!!!! No wait! I think he did win! I wish it was Kimi but there's still races to go. Seb needs to stop crashing! Max stopped ! Leave the crashing to the expert Grosejean!

  8. #38
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    Seb can get a little reckless and those little mistakes that happen once a time hurt us, it's true. We should all state the obvious. However, he can also perform perfectly and deliver some awesome drives and overtakes, that's true as well. I still rate him top 3 on the grid. I just can't rate him de facto number 1.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    However, he can also perform perfectly and deliver some awesome drives and overtakes, that's true as well. I still rate him top 3 on the grid. I just can't rate him de facto number 1.
    He has 4 WDCs all fought for by Alonso, Ham, Button & his team mate which kinda proves he pretty good.

    When his daring moves work they are sensational but of course when they don't they are devastatingly bad.
    I hope Seb can put all his skill to good use this weekend and dedicate the race to Marchionne.


    Forza Jules

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy View Post
    Seb can get a little reckless and those little mistakes that happen once a time hurt us, it's true. We should all state the obvious. However, he can also perform perfectly and deliver some awesome drives and overtakes, that's true as well. I still rate him top 3 on the grid. I just can't rate him de facto number 1.
    If not Seb, then who is your #1? Lewis who can't win in the best car of 2012 - McLaren Mercedes? McLaren Mercedes was also the best car in latter part of 2011, he was still destroyed by Vettel. This is what McLaren's McGrath said in early 2012:

    McGrath added that beating qualifying master Sebastian Vettel will be crucial if McLaren is to be successful in 2012, particularly as its analysis indicated that the raw pace of last year's MP4-26 was superior towards the end of the season despite Red Bull and Vettel's run of poles.

    He must be a brilliant driver, because by the end of last season we definitely had the best car and he[Vettel] was still whupping us," McGrath said. "We're trying to figure out exactly what he's doing that's so good. How does he pull out that fast qualifying lap every time? We think it's driver skill. There's no trickery on the cars, he just gets more out of it than we do.

  11. #41
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    It's 2018!!

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    It's 2018!!
    And Vettel is still the same, the king of qualifying and race management.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    And Vettel is still the same, the king of qualifying and race management.
    76 poles makes a driver king of quali. King of race management is the driver who comes from waay behind and manages to win the race. Ferrari needs to install a " LUCK" button on the steering wheel just like Merc has !!

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    76 poles makes a driver king of quali. King of race management is the driver who comes from waay behind and manages to win the race. Ferrari needs to install a " LUCK" button on the steering wheel just like Merc has !!
    With the car he drove since his debut and especially the past 4 years when he only had to beat his teammate in qualifying, I would say he should have reached 100 poles already. Even Rosberg managed 40 poles in that Merc. Now that Bottas is performing well, you can see Hamilton is unable to outperform him on Saturday, the average qualifying gap between them was like 0.04 or something like that, after Germany it might well have been reversed.

    A true qualifier is the one who can get poles multiple times with not the fastest car, Vettel has achieved that multiple times, Hamilton probably has never done that. But you should continue to post such comments, it provides a good comedy to us users. After all, a good laugh is good for health.

  15. #45
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    Very true , Vettel was driving a bomb back in the RB day ,he had to get out and push that car to the get all those poles; and wins. Do you really believe Vettel's Ferrari is so inferior to Merc? Check it out, that ain't true, Ferrari no matter what you think has a great car that will do WCC as long as Seb can avoid costly mistakes. Here you are saying Lewis should have 100 poles, he's so good. Give him time and your wish may come true! And weather you want to admit it or not Kimi is way better than Bottas even with team orders up the nose!

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    Very true , Vettel was driving a bomb back in the RB day ,he had to get out and push that car to the get all those poles; and wins. Do you really believe Vettel's Ferrari is so inferior to Merc? Check it out, that ain't true, Ferrari no matter what you think has a great car that will do WCC as long as Seb can avoid costly mistakes. Here you are saying Lewis should have 100 poles, he's so good. Give him time and your wish may come true! And weather you want to admit it or not Kimi is way better than Bottas even with team orders up the nose!
    Who said SF71-H isn't a great car? Vettel's Red Bull was nowhere near the Mercedes of past 4 years, even McLaren said in early 2012 that they had the best car but Vettel was making all the difference in the world. Vettel got 9 consecutive victories in 2013, second best in history is 7 consecutive wins. Mercedes of the past 4 years were the most dominant cars in the history of Formula 1 so the driver you support(Hamilton) should have beaten Vettel's record of 9 consecutive victories but he coudn't. Hamilton isn't as good as you think he is. Statistically, Red Bull didn't enjoy the same gap over rivals in 2013 as they did in other years.

    https://www.racefans.net/2014/12/12/...-bulls-2010-3/

    Red Bull knows how big an asset Vettel was which is why both Marko and Horner consider Vettel as one of the greatest of all times, at par with Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell and Michael Schumacher. Even now, Marko has said that Ferrari's resurgence has got quite a lot to do with Vettel's input. Everyone is praising Arrivabene, Mattia Binotto, Sergio Marchionne, Ferrari engineers but I haven't seen many praising Vettel but those who worked with him know what he's capable of. Webber said in 2016 that Vettel like a juggernaut will bring Ferrari back to title contenders. You just need to look at the trend, Vettel went to Toro Rosso and made them winners in treacherous wet conditions as a rookie. Went to Red Bull and made them champions, went to Ferrari and now Ferrari has produced the best car since 2008. In case of Hamilton, only opposite has happened, made debut in title capable car, went to Mercedes in 2013 when all preparations for 2014 had already been done, the seed of Mercedes dominance was sown in 2011 as per Ross Brawn.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/f...ream-team.html

    I said Hamilton should have got to 100 poles already till the end of 2017, his cars since 2007 were that good. Of course Kimi is better than Bottas, Kimi has a narrow window but when he is in it, he can be as fast as anyone out there at least on Saturday. The problem with Kimi is his consistency, this year he started performing only when Leclerc to Ferrari rumor was going strong. We'll see whether or not he can continue his strong form of recent races into the second half.

    Weakness of Kimi is his overtaking abilities, he just doesn't go for it. He would sit behind for many laps and will attempt for overtake rarely. But if Kimi can continue his strong form then sure Ferrari can win WCC.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    Who said SF71-H isn't a great car? Vettel's Red Bull was nowhere near the Mercedes of past 4 years, even McLaren said in early 2012 that they had the best car but Vettel was making all the difference in the world. Vettel got 9 consecutive victories in 2013, second best in history is 7 consecutive wins. Mercedes of the past 4 years were the most dominant cars in the history of Formula 1 so the driver you support(Hamilton) should have beaten Vettel's record of 9 consecutive victories but he coudn't. Hamilton isn't as good as you think he is. Statistically, Red Bull didn't enjoy the same gap over rivals in 2013 as they did in other years.

    https://www.racefans.net/2014/12/12/...-bulls-2010-3/

    Red Bull knows how big an asset Vettel was which is why both Marko and Horner consider Vettel as one of the greatest of all times, at par with Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell and Michael Schumacher. Even now, Marko has said that Ferrari's resurgence has got quite a lot to do with Vettel's input. Everyone is praising Arrivabene, Mattia Binotto, Sergio Marchionne, Ferrari engineers but I haven't seen many praising Vettel but those who worked with him know what he's capable of. Webber said in 2016 that Vettel like a juggernaut will bring Ferrari back to title contenders. You just need to look at the trend, Vettel went to Toro Rosso and made them winners in treacherous wet conditions as a rookie. Went to Red Bull and made them champions, went to Ferrari and now Ferrari has produced the best car since 2008. In case of Hamilton, only opposite has happened, made debut in title capable car, went to Mercedes in 2013 when all preparations for 2014 had already been done, the seed of Mercedes dominance was sown in 2011 as per Ross Brawn.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/f...ream-team.html

    I said Hamilton should have got to 100 poles already till the end of 2017, his cars since 2007 were that good. Of course Kimi is better than Bottas, Kimi has a narrow window but when he is in it, he can be as fast as anyone out there at least on Saturday. The problem with Kimi is his consistency, this year he started performing only when Leclerc to Ferrari rumor was going strong. We'll see whether or not he can continue his strong form of recent races into the second half.

    Weakness of Kimi is his overtaking abilities, he just doesn't go for it. He would sit behind for many laps and will attempt for overtake rarely. But if Kimi can continue his strong form then sure Ferrari can win WCC.

  18. #48
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    Is sebastian Vettel shooting himself in the foot?

    Not really tbh, unless he has the powers to control the weather,vsc,sc, strategy and pitstops then maybe
    hockenheim 2018 / China 2018 : Never forget how quick Ferrari can lose it all, be humble.
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    lol ignore the bitter old cows ;-)

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwk360 View Post
    Is sebastian Vettel shooting himself in the foot?

    Not really tbh, unless he has the powers to control the weather,vsc,sc, strategy and pitstops then maybe
    They said replace Vettel with Ricciardo or Alonso so maybe Ricciardo and Alonso have powers to switch weathers, they can summon VSC or SC at will, they make the strategy and calls. The only advantage Vettel has over Ricciardo or Alonso or any other driver is that he can qualify faster and race better than them, he unfortunately isn't skilled enough to change weather, summon safety cars etc.. For sure Vettel is shooting in the foot by lacking these powers.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    They said replace Vettel with Ricciardo or Alonso so maybe Ricciardo and Alonso have powers to switch weathers, they can summon VSC or SC at will, they make the strategy and calls. The only advantage Vettel has over Ricciardo or Alonso or any other driver is that he can qualify faster and race better than them, he unfortunately isn't skilled enough to change weather, summon safety cars etc.. For sure Vettel is shooting in the foot by lacking these powers.
    agreed, but hey vettel makes more mistakes than hamilton and alonso he should'v left it sunny for qualifying what was he thinking, he brought out the vsc wrong time at baku too. silly mistakes, pitting too late at today's race after traffic cost him 3seconds another vettel mistake why didnt he change his tyres himself like Xnda
    hockenheim 2018 / China 2018 : Never forget how quick Ferrari can lose it all, be humble.
    Positivity doesn't win you championships, whining about people being negative makes you blind!
    lol ignore the bitter old cows ;-)

  21. #51
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    I like to see Alonso - Vettel paired together next year.

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    They said replace Vettel with Ricciardo or Alonso so maybe Ricciardo and Alonso have powers to switch weathers, they can summon VSC or SC at will, they make the strategy and calls. The only advantage Vettel has over Ricciardo or Alonso or any other driver is that he can qualify faster and race better than them, he unfortunately isn't skilled enough to change weather, summon safety cars etc.. For sure Vettel is shooting in the foot by lacking these powers.
    Verstappen is destroying Ricciardo. When he does not have a car issue, he with very high percentage beats Ricciardo.
    If there is a driver to get to Ferrari, it is him.
    Last edited by DelMar; 29th July 2018 at 17:56.

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelMar View Post
    Verstappen is destroying Ricciardo. When he does not have a car issue, he with very high percentage beats Ricciardo.
    If there a driver to get to Ferrari, it is him.
    Oh yes, just because of 2014, Ricciardo overrates himself too much. He thought he was better than Vettel. Even before Race of Champions 2015, he said he wanted redemption by beating Vettel again to prove that he is actually faster than Vettel but Vettel beat him by over half a second lol. Kvyat beat Ricciardo in 2015, he wasn't great before 2014 as well.

    There is another reason for Ricciardo's hype - before 2014, no driver had ever beaten Vettel over the course of a season and even till now, 2014 was the only year where Vettel's teammate scored more points than him. After Vettel's 9 consecutive wins in 2013, it was considered a miracle if anyone could beat him and Ricciardo scored more points so he was considered the next big thing but that hype train is quickly derailing and people are realizing that Ricciardo was never a world champion material.

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    Oh yes, just because of 2014, Ricciardo overrates himself too much. He thought he was better than Vettel. Even before Race of Champions 2015, he said he wanted redemption by beating Vettel again to prove that he is actually faster than Vettel but Vettel beat him by over half a second lol. Kvyat beat Ricciardo in 2015, he wasn't great before 2014 as well.

    There is another reason for Ricciardo's hype - before 2014, no driver had ever beaten Vettel over the course of a season and even till now, 2014 was the only year where Vettel's teammate scored more points than him. After Vettel's 9 consecutive wins in 2013, it was considered a miracle if anyone could beat him and Ricciardo scored more points so he was considered the next big thing but that hype train is quickly derailing and people are realizing that Ricciardo was never a world champion material.
    Ricciardo is not over rated at all. There are politics in F1 and they're the cause of certain issues. Picture this: Ricciardo is on the hunt for a seat in 2019, RedBull want to extend and make their offer, Now what would be the best way to get a pretty good driver for cheap? Having his team mate beat him on points, making him look as an average driver to other teams so he cannot bargain much. RedBull are quite sly when it comes to bargaining and it goes for everything. Engines, drivers, Engineers and so on. Verstappen is young and gutsy, he came cheap and now is starting to fatten his pay cheques so eventually he'll get the same. Vettel was getting demotivated and Riccardo did better than him during their last year together.

    The only person in RB that has priceless value is Adrian Newey as RB know too well that thanks to his Aero masterpieces even with an inferior PU they can still win. Had Newey joined Merc or Ferrari they would be unstoppable with their current engines.

    Daniel is a good driver, plans over takings ahead imo even better than Lewis as LH relies on his "you can't touch me coz I am god" status when he dives in. The only one that is on par or slightly better is Alonso but the man is a train wrecking machine in every team he joins with the instability he brings inside the organisation.

    As much as I would like to see Vettel win this year I fear he lacks the killer instinct. I'm actually surprised he is taking risks lately for once.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRX202 View Post
    Ricciardo is not over rated at all. There are politics in F1 and they're the cause of certain issues. Picture this: Ricciardo is on the hunt for a seat in 2019, RedBull want to extend and make their offer, Now what would be the best way to get a pretty good driver for cheap? Having his team mate beat him on points, making him look as an average driver to other teams so he cannot bargain much. RedBull are quite sly when it comes to bargaining and it goes for everything. Engines, drivers, Engineers and so on. Verstappen is young and gutsy, he came cheap and now is starting to fatten his pay cheques so eventually he'll get the same. Vettel was getting demotivated and Riccardo did better than him during their last year together.

    The only person in RB that has priceless value is Adrian Newey as RB know too well that thanks to his Aero masterpieces even with an inferior PU they can still win. Had Newey joined Merc or Ferrari they would be unstoppable with their current engines.

    Daniel is a good driver, plans over takings ahead imo even better than Lewis as LH relies on his "you can't touch me coz I am god" status when he dives in. The only one that is on par or slightly better is Alonso but the man is a train wrecking machine in every team he joins with the instability he brings inside the organisation.

    As much as I would like to see Vettel win this year I fear he lacks the killer instinct. I'm actually surprised he is taking risks lately for once.
    Vettel lacks the killer instinct? That's a new thing, Hamilton, Alonso, Ricciardo all lack in one field or another but I don't see Vettel inferior in any of the departments from qualifying, race management, team builder, technical input etc... Verstappen I think has shown Vettel esque qualities from time to time. A couple more years and we'll see what Leclerc has to offer as he looks very promising.

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    Vettel lacks the killer instinct? That's a new thing, Hamilton, Alonso, Ricciardo all lack in one field or another but I don't see Vettel inferior in any of the departments from qualifying, race management, team builder, technical input etc... Verstappen I think has shown Vettel esque qualities from time to time. A couple more years and we'll see what Leclerc has to offer as he looks very promising.
    There's a difference between diving in a-la-Maldonado/Verstappen and overtaking Ricciardo/Alonso style, that is what I mean with "killer instinct", no one is questioning his quick lap qualifying qualities and he has improved a lot over the last year when it comes to managing pressure and frustration. Vettel was the type that stays far too long behind other cars ruining his tyres and even flat spotting them if the defending driver late brakes him (which Bottas thinks he is great at but sucks! hence the contact in Hungary with SV and DR). That extra bit of grip and power is giving Vettel more confidence this year.

    As for Leclerc I was all in favour of seeing him in the Red car next year until I watched his performance in the last 2 races. He didn't look that good in the wet whereas Kimi was shining + considering that Alfa have the Ferrari EVO3 spec engine I was a bit let down with their performance in Hungary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WRX202 View Post
    There's a difference between diving in a-la-Maldonado/Verstappen and overtaking Ricciardo/Alonso style, that is what I mean with "killer instinct", no one is questioning his quick lap qualifying qualities and he has improved a lot over the last year when it comes to managing pressure and frustration. Vettel was the type that stays far too long behind other cars ruining his tyres and even flat spotting them if the defending driver late brakes him (which Bottas thinks he is great at but sucks! hence the contact in Hungary with SV and DR). That extra bit of grip and power is giving Vettel more confidence this year.

    As for Leclerc I was all in favour of seeing him in the Red car next year until I watched his performance in the last 2 races. He didn't look that good in the wet whereas Kimi was shining + considering that Alfa have the Ferrari EVO3 spec engine I was a bit let down with their performance in Hungary.
    I think they weren't running Spec 3 to full power just like how Ferrari did the same in Canada, only since Austria, did Ferrari was gaining immense laptime on straights. I believe Ferrari is in good shape for Spa and then maybe can unleash the power of Spec 3 fully in home race. That would be quite good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chinmay View Post
    I think they weren't running Spec 3 to full power just like how Ferrari did the same in Canada, only since Austria, did Ferrari was gaining immense laptime on straights. I believe Ferrari is in good shape for Spa and then maybe can unleash the power of Spec 3 fully in home race. That would be quite good.
    Only HAAS and AlfaRomeo Sauber had EVO3 spec, Ferrari was running previous spec. In other words if they were gaining so much in the straight with EVO2 let's hope they dominate with EVO3 as from next race ;) Monza is very important for the tifosi and SPA is a power circuit too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WRX202 View Post
    Only HAAS and AlfaRomeo Sauber had EVO3 spec, Ferrari was running previous spec. In other words if they were gaining so much in the straight with EVO2 let's hope they dominate with EVO3 as from next race ;) Monza is very important for the tifosi and SPA is a power circuit too.
    Ferrari are testing today with Force India, Williams, Mercedes, STR. So under testing rules if a car blows an engine during testing, it does'nt count towards the component allocaton allotment or no penalties.

    They (any team) can blow as many engines as they want and it won't count against them.

    Ferrari are probably testing the Spec 3 engine right now with GIO in the car....I would......food for thought.
    Last edited by jgonzalesm6; 31st July 2018 at 14:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Ferrari are testing today with Force India, Williams, Mercedes, STR. So under testing rules if a car blows an engine during testing, it does'nt count towards the component allocaton allotment or no penalties.

    They (any team) can blow as many engines as they want and it won't count against them.

    Ferrari are probably testing the Spec 3 engine right now with GIO in the car....I would......food for thought.
    Whatever engine Antonio was using today in testing, it was a strong one and the boy did good! Fastest and new lap record too.

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