Ferrari and Schumi v Merc and Lewis

[Greig]

Having a read of the forum today and the last few months has really made me chuckle a bit about how we have done a complete 180

I am sure many of us here will remember the claims made against Ferrari and MS in our peak, the FIA helps us, Bridgestone make tyres specially for us, team orders, Schumi never gets penalty, FIA bans anything on other cars that make them good etc etc

Now so many of us here make the same claims against Merc and Lewis, it really is a strange sport F1....

Personally back then when I defended our team against those claims I always maintained it was up to our rivals to step up and challenge us, and that now applies to us and crying foul and conspiracy theories really won't change a thing until our team raises themselves back to the top, and they will soon enough. Sure some of you might lose interest before then, and some will kick and scream until it happens but it will happen and there is nothing we can write here that will change it or make it happen any quicker.

Forza Ferrari

[aquaria]

Well, not going into deep thoughts right now but I will only touch on the issue you mentioned: "I always maintained it was up to our rivals to step up and challenge us";

as our rivals never dethroned us by becoming better than us in development, I was young at that time and don't remember it but what my father told me, and what I've researched later on by myself, those rules introduced for 2005 season were directly aimed at ending Michael's and Ferrari's domination of the sport because people were complaining how boring F1 has become (especially after F2004 destroyed everything).

Now we have a team that's in the same situation as us back then, they will be Constructors champions for fifth season in a row as well as having a driver's Champion from their team, again, fifth season in a row.

And we had a lot of discussion here about how certain rules, on and off the track, apply (or don't apply) to Mercedes and the rest of the grid (Hamilton pit-stop scene in Germany for example).

[Rob]

Having a read of the forum today and the last few months has really made me chuckle a bit about how we have done a complete 180

I am sure many of us here will remember the claims made against Ferrari and MS in our peak, the FIA helps us, Bridgestone make tyres specially for us, team orders, Schumi never gets penalty, FIA bans anything on other cars that make them good etc etc

Now so many of us here make the same claims against Merc and Lewis, it really is a strange sport F1....

Personally back then when I defended our team against those claims I always maintained it was up to our rivals to step up and challenge us, and that now applies to us and crying foul and conspiracy theories really won't change a thing until our team raises themselves back to the top, and they will soon enough. Sure some of you might lose interest before then, and some will kick and scream until it happens but it will happen and there is nothing we can write here that will change it or make it happen any quicker.

Forza Ferrari

[Lega Verde]

Good point.

(tbh I was McLaren guy back then. Similarities are obvious though)

[FerrariF60]

Good point.

(tbh I was McLaren guy back then. Similarities are obvious though)

i should have known, because KIMI was driving for them, right???

[vecchiasignora]

if u give schumacher a car 0.4 slower then top car, he will get u championship. hamilton lost to his friggin teammate a championship(rosberg).
no one would ever beat schumi, he is in a class of his own.its insult to put hamilton in same sentence with him.

[Greig]

if u give schumacher a car 0.4 slower then top car, he will get u championship. hamilton lost to his friggin teammate a championship(rosberg).
no one would ever beat schumi, he is in a class of his own.its insult to put hamilton in same sentence with him.

Guess you never even read the post, nobody is comparing. Calm down

[Lega Verde]

i should have known, because KIMI was driving for them, right???

Yeah, I have explained the situation back in 2017 when I joined this forum on introduction thread. It is on page 31 if you are interested.

[FerrariF60]

Yeah, I have explained the situation back in 2017 when I joined this forum on introduction thread. It is on page 31 if you are interested.

no worries mate, i'm good.....
as for me, first and foremost i'm a FERRARI fan.....drivers come and go, only LEGENDS stick in my mind

[Cavallino]

I've watched since 1998. Ferrari supporter the whole time. Michael was one of my childhood heroes.

First of all, the bias in the media is obvious. So I will just glance over that. We all know that they cried that F1 was boring back then. I have never found F1 boring. Until now. I hate manufactured excitement, through rules.

Onto the FIA.

In the early 2000s, They changed the qualifying strategy every year it seemed. It was ridiculous. Constantly changed the tyre rules, eliminated refueling. And ever increasing bans on on track testing.

Yes, there are similarities to Mercedes now, here is the thing, instead of trying to stop the domination, it has been EMBRACED. Now suddenly team orders are okay.

Can anyone here name 1 regulation that has changed of any consequence during Mercedes' domination?

Forget about the fact that Mercedes had a head start, forget the fact that Mercedes had an illegal tyre test. In the beginning of this formula, there were actually regulations on how many upgrades the teams could make to their power units. The FIA basically ensured that the other teams couldn't catch up! They perpetuated this length of dominance.

Look no further than the last 2 races. Ferrari supposedly brought developments that either don't work or chew the tyres too fast? Do you know why? Because you can't test them? Something like that should never happen. But the FIA banned in season testing. Ferrari has their own test track, just sitting there collecting dust. They'd know well before the races that something didn't work. Just bolt it on the car! But the FIA decided that was unfair. Remember 1998? Ferrari used to be the kings of in season development! And that is why! But the FIA banned it, seriously hurt Ferrari, and Ferrari still hasn't fully figured out how to build new parts without on track testing.

The FIA robbed us from knowing just how good the F2005 was. Imagine how much more competitive the F2006 would have been if we didn't spend all that time trying to figure out how to make 1 set of tyres last the whole race? It doesn't take much of a leap to say that Schumacher would have continued dominating through 2008.

But that wasn't acceptable. They turned the Rasscasse incident into a witch hunt. Hamilton purposely steered his car into Kimi in Canada 2008. That was okay.

[evo_spook]

Well, not going into deep thoughts right now but I will only touch on the issue you mentioned: "I always maintained it was up to our rivals to step up and challenge us";

as our rivals never dethroned us by becoming better than us in development, I was young at that time and don't remember it but what my father told me, and what I've researched later on by myself, those rules introduced for 2005 season were directly aimed at ending Michael's and Ferrari's domination of the sport because people were complaining how boring F1 has become (especially after F2004 destroyed everything).

Now we have a team that's in the same situation as us back then, they will be Constructors champions for fifth season in a row as well as having a driver's Champion from their team, again, fifth season in a row.

And we had a lot of discussion here about how certain rules, on and off the track, apply (or don't apply) to Mercedes and the rest of the grid (Hamilton pit-stop scene in Germany for example).

3rd brake pedal, beryllium metal and mass damper says hello

Oh and lets not forget Michelin tyres

[evo_spook]

I've watched since 1998. Ferrari supporter the whole time. Michael was one of my childhood heroes.

First of all, the bias in the media is obvious. So I will just glance over that. We all know that they cried that F1 was boring back then. I have never found F1 boring. Until now. I hate manufactured excitement, through rules.

Onto the FIA.

In the early 2000s, They changed the qualifying strategy every year it seemed. It was ridiculous. Constantly changed the tyre rules, eliminated refueling. And ever increasing bans on on track testing.

Yes, there are similarities to Mercedes now, here is the thing, instead of trying to stop the domination, it has been EMBRACED. Now suddenly team orders are okay.

Can anyone here name 1 regulation that has changed of any consequence during Mercedes' domination?

Forget about the fact that Mercedes had a head start, forget the fact that Mercedes had an illegal tyre test. In the beginning of this formula, there were actually regulations on how many upgrades the teams could make to their power units. The FIA basically ensured that the other teams couldn't catch up! They perpetuated this length of dominance.

Look no further than the last 2 races. Ferrari supposedly brought developments that either don't work or chew the tyres too fast? Do you know why? Because you can't test them? Something like that should never happen. But the FIA banned in season testing. Ferrari has their own test track, just sitting there collecting dust. They'd know well before the races that something didn't work. Just bolt it on the car! But the FIA decided that was unfair. Remember 1998? Ferrari used to be the kings of in season development! And that is why! But the FIA banned it, seriously hurt Ferrari, and Ferrari still hasn't fully figured out how to build new parts without on track testing.

The FIA robbed us from knowing just how good the F2005 was. Imagine how much more competitive the F2006 would have been if we didn't spend all that time trying to figure out how to make 1 set of tyres last the whole race? It doesn't take much of a leap to say that Schumacher would have continued dominating through 2008.

But that wasn't acceptable. They turned the Rasscasse incident into a witch hunt. Hamilton purposely steered his car into Kimi in Canada 2008. That was okay.

team orders were allowed before Merc winning.
You do know they keep banning parts of the merc suspension.

[evo_spook]

Hamilton purposely steered his car into Kimi in Canada 2008. That was okay.

huh?

[ScuderiaBuckeye]

I've watched since 1998. Ferrari supporter the whole time. Michael was one of my childhood heroes.

Forget about the fact that Mercedes had a head start, forget the fact that Mercedes had an illegal tyre test. In the beginning of this formula, there were actually regulations on how many upgrades the teams could make to their power units. The FIA basically ensured that the other teams couldn't catch up! They perpetuated this length of dominance.

Look no further than the last 2 races. Ferrari supposedly brought developments that either don't work or chew the tyres too fast? Do you know why? Because you can't test them? Something like that should never happen. But the FIA banned in season testing. Ferrari has their own test track, just sitting there collecting dust. They'd know well before the races that something didn't work. Just bolt it on the car! But the FIA decided that was unfair. Remember 1998? Ferrari used to be the kings of in season development! And that is why! But the FIA banned it, seriously hurt Ferrari, and Ferrari still hasn't fully figured out how to build new parts without on track testing.

It is ridiculous to blame this on the FIA the teams agreed to these rules and Ferrari agreed to stop testing at Fiorano. It was foolish of Ferrari to do this and yeah their developments often don't work b/c their technical staff or their equipment/software cannot design products on a computer as effectively as the Merc/Red Bull staff can do. That is on Ferrari, not the FIA.

Right now Ferrari is in the same panic mode they were in last year when the championship started slipping away and they are throwing proverbial poo poo into the fan to find something that sticks b/c they need a massive performance upgrade to win races again it seems. Updates that destroy the tires you say??? Same thing happened in Spain back in the spring so what is new here? Nothing...same ole story w/ this team they cannot design their cars on a computer b/c they lack the technical expertise somewhere.

[mwk360]

team orders is the smart thing to do when you are in a championship battle unlike 2016 when mercs were in leagues of their own, obviously Ferrari rarely ever have the chance to do it since kimi and seb are usually far apart on track or seb is usually ahead anyway. Then the entire press/media makes it to be some dirty underhanded move to keep kimi down and ferrari being cheaters etc etc (who cares the f1 media does that purposely to sucker people in to believing it)
JT was smart and did it with schumi he had developed a beast of a car with the preference of schumi driving style, M.A is all aboout being equal well thats the results he gets

Mercs obviously have the brains and the talents to stay ahead since their pool of resources is limitless whilst ferrari tries to thrive of their own pool, thats where ferrari's downfall is, anytime they take few steps forwards its a long time before they make another that others have caught up or passed already or it ends up being a naughty little trick for the short term.

Hopefully new management can find the best engineers and brain team to develop and continue throughout the year, summer break is seemingly when maranello shuts down till next year

[Cavallino]

huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbSL8edgC3Y

[Cavallino]

It is ridiculous to blame this on the FIA the teams agreed to these rules and Ferrari agreed to stop testing at Fiorano. It was foolish of Ferrari to do this and yeah their developments often don't work b/c their technical staff or their equipment/software cannot design products on a computer as effectively as the Merc/Red Bull staff can do. That is on Ferrari, not the FIA.

Right now Ferrari is in the same panic mode they were in last year when the championship started slipping away and they are throwing proverbial poo poo into the fan to find something that sticks b/c they need a massive performance upgrade to win races again it seems. Updates that destroy the tires you say??? Same thing happened in Spain back in the spring so what is new here? Nothing...same ole story w/ this team they cannot design their cars on a computer b/c they lack the technical expertise somewhere.

Then what happened to this Ferrari veto power? Is Ferrari management so incompetent that they agree to rule changes that they know will hinder them? I don't get it. I'm not saying you're wrong, I agree, with what I think you're getting at. But if you're right, then who is agreeing to all this?

[Cavallino]

team orders were allowed before Merc winning.
You do know they keep banning parts of the merc suspension.

Can you provide an article?

[Cavallino]

I'm going to say something ridiculous I was thinking today.

Without that 2005 rule change, Schumacher would be 11 times world champion, with close to 150 race wins. Easy.

And if it wasn't for Adrian Newey designed cars, he would be champ in 96-99 too.

15 championships.

[jgonzalesm6]

Can you provide an article?

which one are you wanting an article from? "team orders?" or "they keep banning parts of the merc suspension?"

[Cavallino]

which one are you wanting an article from? "team orders?" or "they keep banning parts of the merc suspension?"

suspension. It couldn't have been last year.

[jgonzalesm6]

suspension. It couldn't have been last year.

Then fellow tifoso [evo_spook] is correct then and it was last year.

Ferrari wrote a letter to the FIA in the beginning of Jan. 2017 regarding MB "FRIC" system (google it). RedBull was using it too but the letter, I believe, was focused on MB. The FIA agreed and MB and RedBull had "plan b" in place.

Prior to that, Ferrari was insisting clarification on the FRIC system which both MB and Redbull had been using for over 2 years.....since....MB had been "tweaking" this FRIC system....until the beginning of 2017.

[evo_spook]

Then fellow tifoso [evo_spook] is correct then and it was last year.

Ferrari wrote a letter to the FIA in the beginning of Jan. 2017 regarding MB "FRIC" system (google it). RedBull was using it too but the letter, I believe, was focused on MB. The FIA agreed and MB and RedBull had "plan b" in place.

Prior to that, Ferrari was insisting clarification on the FRIC system which both MB and Redbull had been using for over 2 years.....since....MB had been "tweaking" this FRIC system....until the beginning of 2017.

I think the Fric was updated about 2 times prior to being banned due to FIA rule clarifications. Due to the system being banned in early 2017 was thought one of the reasons Merc started slowely as they built their car around a suspension system they had to remove before the first race.

[evo_spook]

I'm going to say something ridiculous I was thinking today.

Without that 2005 rule change, Schumacher would be 11 times world champion, with close to 150 race wins. Easy.

And if it wasn't for Adrian Newey designed cars, he would be champ in 96-99 too.

15 championships.

So, really, take away another that disadvantaged Ferrari and take away any cars that were competing against Ferrari......

MS would have less championships aswell if FIA had clamped down on forcing people of the road, not banned Berillium, not banned 3rd brake pedal and not instigated Michellien Gate.

You see it works both ways...

[aroutis]

Having a read of the forum today and the last few months has really made me chuckle a bit about how we have done a complete 180

I am sure many of us here will remember the claims made against Ferrari and MS in our peak, the FIA helps us, Bridgestone make tyres specially for us, team orders, Schumi never gets penalty, FIA bans anything on other cars that make them good etc etc

Now so many of us here make the same claims against Merc and Lewis, it really is a strange sport F1....

Personally back then when I defended our team against those claims I always maintained it was up to our rivals to step up and challenge us, and that now applies to us and crying foul and conspiracy theories really won't change a thing until our team raises themselves back to the top, and they will soon enough. Sure some of you might lose interest before then, and some will kick and scream until it happens but it will happen and there is nothing we can write here that will change it or make it happen any quicker.

Forza Ferrari

I Clearly remember back then when everyone was blaming the Ferrari International assistance for our dominance.
When of course, it was down to two things :
1. The team effort
2. The incompetence of the others to match what we were doing.

Needless to say, I believe that right now this is our problem. Whether we like it or not, Mercedes is doing a better job.
We should have implemented team orders but we don't (and for some reason we have the man in charge trying to defend that).
We have had a great package up until the summer break, now we've lost (or it seems so) that advantage
And when it comes to politics, well, specially after the demise of Sergio, it seems we have no leverage.

So we need to put our head down, stop looking to what others do, and start looking to what we do.

[aroutis]

if u give schumacher a car 0.4 slower then top car, he will get u championship. hamilton lost to his friggin teammate a championship(rosberg).
no one would ever beat schumi, he is in a class of his own.its insult to put hamilton in same sentence with him.

Michael being Michael , there is always 2005 to prove to you that if the package is crap for whatever the reason (back then it was the way that the car worked with tyres) , the driver simply cannot just perform miracles.

[evo_spook]

Michael being Michael , there is always 2005 to prove to you that if the package is crap for whatever the reason (back then it was the way that the car worked with tyres) , the driver simply cannot just perform miracles.

2006 aswell. Both Ferrari and Renault produced excellent cars.

[jgonzalesm6]

I think the Fric was updated about 2 times prior to being banned due to FIA rule clarifications. Due to the system being banned in early 2017 was thought one of the reasons Merc started slowely as they built their car around a suspension system they had to remove before the first race.

like in 2 months before Melbourne!!!! And 2 weeks before Melbourne you have Barcelona (Catalunya) testing. They clearly had plan b ready.

[Brembo]

Lewis @ 33yrs. old with only 70 wins 79 poles 130 podiums has just 10 more years to Schumy's final retirement age of 43.. Ok ; the poles are done, but he better hurry up if he want's to finish on top. Just 10 yrs. !! I Believe if Max gets blessed with a top car as Shumy and Lewis were blessed, he will be the #1 F 1 driver.

[ScuderiaBuckeye]

Then what happened to this Ferrari veto power? Is Ferrari management so incompetent that they agree to rule changes that they know will hinder them? I don't get it. I'm not saying you're wrong, I agree, with what I think you're getting at. But if you're right, then who is agreeing to all this?

Quite simply, Ferrari agreed to it so they could keep getting their free appearance fee from the FIA just for showing up to GPs.