2018 Japanese GP: Race

[Giallo 550]

Well I am leaving this forum, i had enough...

I don't blame you. A lot of fair weather fans out there.

[Giallo 550]

Sebs a racer. Respect to him for trying. Thing i was thinking about on a bike ride, if Lewis or Max would of made the same move, with the same result. I bet, SKYF1, would of said, well he is a racer, he went for a pass and the driver in front should of left more room and saw him.

This.

[Giallo 550]

Despite the poor result in terms of the championship, I thoroughly enjoyed this race. I think Seb has accepted defeat and can now focus on learning from this year and getting back into his groove.

I believe his risk assessment on his attempt to pass Max was justifiable because honestly he was making great moves up to then and the car was quick. We all know Max is not going to give his position easily anywhere but he literally needs to be run off the road and I hope it bites him in the future when he is racing for the championship and someone knocks him out. Karma will be sweet when this happens but until then I think Seb's attempt was justifiable:

1. He needed to win to keep his title hopes alive
2. Waiting for the pit stop would mean losing time every lap to HAM
3. The best chance to pass was probably into the last chicane but that was very predictable and Max would be defending like no tomorrow anyways so:
4. He had the battery charge over Max and knew he could sneak up to him at spoon, somewhere max wouldn't expect as much.

Seb did the best Seb could do. Every experience counts and this should help him for next year as he will better know his limits.

Lets now fully face it, Germany was the turning point. We have never fully recovered since and it has gone down hill from there. We need to regroup and again make some changes. We also lost our chief SM and the consequences of it have been grave. With strong determination we can win again, but we need to make some bold changes.

After this race, I absolutely see the need for a team re-shuffling, and it should very much happen now, not 3 months from now. At worst we need to see some step changes before the last race so that we can start to sort these issues sooner for next year. Whenever there is changes in the team it takes time to adapt. If we wait until the winter to make all our changes we will be going into the new year with both feet behind whereas making a few changes as we go starting now we might only have 1 foot behind us.

(Side note 1) Regarding risk assessment: HAM has learnt a long time ago to not take so much risk, he keeps his racing very clean 90% of the time, his passes usually very precise but probably a bit boring, whereas Seb still goes for it. Having said that, who would I rather watch in a battle, Seb or Ham? 100% Seb everytime. That is why I still believe F1 needs to find a way to promote "racing" and not just having the fastest car so that you can leisurly drive to the finish line in 1st.

(Side note 2)Regarding only the fastest car winning which is boring and promotes more risk management: F1 has a huge cost problem, there seems to be no way to keep costs low. Do you guys think by creating more risk and less predictability we could lower costs. For example, right now it seems you need to spend $500 million to have a 90% chance of being in the top 2. What if we change the way races are held somehow so that having the fastest car only gives a 75% chance of taking the top 2. This way it may not be as justified to spend $500 million for only a 75% chance. Just like a lottery, if you have a 90% chance of winning you will be more willing to throw so much money (especially if you have a lot of it) at it than if your odds are less. How that could be done is beyond me, but somehow we have to make it so that spending more does not mean a for sure win or podium at the end of the race. Maybe we could start by changing qualifying, it seems wrong but maybe qualifying 1st gives you less of an advantage. Instead of being the first on the line, maybe you get the fastest tire to start the race but you have to start in reverse order. At the end of the day, it will make it more difficult for the faster cars, which seems unfair but it would promote the teams to spend less because it may not be as important to have the fastest car anymore. This may also have a knock on effect to making sure the driver is more important, which means it is more likely the best drivers actually make it to F1 and not just how much money they bring.

Looking forward to Austin! Always believe.

Forza Ferrari!

Aaand this.

[superwonderboy]

Hamilton wining is one thing, listen to crofty and co gloating in ferrari's mistakes is another. I thaught crofty was to be reprimand or fired?? I'm sorry, but his style of commentry and hate towards ferrari is abit too much for me.

[Arcana]

So my conclusions:

1. Race was lost in qualifying. Once you're behind Verstappen, it's almost game over.
2. Both Vettel and Kimi had to make a move on Verstappen if they were to have a slight chance to challenge Mercedes. They tried and they failed.
3. I repeat myself a bit but: Vettel really HAD to make a move and not wait for a pitstop, but he had to make it smart, not in a rush and not in that place. Unfortunately he is too impulsive and keeps making stupid mistakes that costed him 2 world titles with Ferrari by now.
4. If Vettel move worked he would have finished 2nd.
5. The cars had the pace to challenge at least Bottas until they were damaged.
6. Redbull with Verstappen will be a big problem for Ferrari next year. Actually they are almost on par with us with that Renault garbage underneath it. If that Honda engine will be on par with Ferrari engine next year, Verstappen will wipe the floor with our drivers and will be the worst nightmare for Lewis.
7. Leclerc needs to push Vettel as hard as possible otherwise we won't win any title in the future with this driver lineup. If Leclerc > Vettel next year and he keeps making stupid mistakes, Vettel has to go.
8. Arrivabene and some of his staff have to go. NOW.

[bonzo]

So my conclusions:

1. Race was lost in qualifying. Once you're behind Verstappen, it's almost game over.
2. Both Vettel and Kimi had to make a move on Verstappen if they were to have a slight chance to challenge Mercedes. They tried and they failed.
3. I repeat myself a bit but: Vettel really HAD to make a move and not wait for a pitstop, but he had to make it smart, not in a rush and not in that place. Unfortunately he is too impulsive and keeps making stupid mistakes that costed him 2 world titles with Ferrari by now.
4. If Vettel move worked he would have finished 2nd.
5. The cars had the pace to challenge at least Bottas until they were damaged.
6. Redbull with Verstappen will be a big problem for Ferrari next year. Actually they are almost on par with us with that Renault garbage underneath it. If that Honda engine will be on par with Ferrari engine next year, Verstappen will wipe the floor with our drivers and will be the worst nightmare for Lewis.
7. Leclerc needs to push Vettel as hard as possible otherwise we won't win any title in the future with this driver lineup. If Leclerc > Vettel next year and he keeps making stupid mistakes, Vettel has to go.
8. Arrivabene and some of his staff have to go. NOW.

+1

[Estoril]

So my conclusions:

1. Race was lost in qualifying. Once you're behind Verstappen, it's almost game over.
2. Both Vettel and Kimi had to make a move on Verstappen if they were to have a slight chance to challenge Mercedes. They tried and they failed.
3. I repeat myself a bit but: Vettel really HAD to make a move and not wait for a pitstop, but he had to make it smart, not in a rush and not in that place. Unfortunately he is too impulsive and keeps making stupid mistakes that costed him 2 world titles with Ferrari by now.
4. If Vettel move worked he would have finished 2nd.
5. The cars had the pace to challenge at least Bottas until they were damaged.
6. Redbull with Verstappen will be a big problem for Ferrari next year. Actually they are almost on par with us with that Renault garbage underneath it. If that Honda engine will be on par with Ferrari engine next year, Verstappen will wipe the floor with our drivers and will be the worst nightmare for Lewis.
7. Leclerc needs to push Vettel as hard as possible otherwise we won't win any title in the future with this driver lineup. If Leclerc > Vettel next year and he keeps making stupid mistakes, Vettel has to go.
8. Arrivabene and some of his staff have to go. NOW.

1) Both drivers performed badly in qualifying. It is true that the team gave them the wrong tyres, but when they did their laps it was just as dry as it was for Hamilton and others. But the result was that Kimi messed up in 1 corner and Seb did 3 (!!!) mistakes on his lap. Unforgivable.
2) Kimi had bad luck when Max went a bit cuckoo, but Seb vs Max was all on Seb. He would have had DRS for the next straight and would have easily taken Max.
3) He would have taken Max by the end of the start-finish straight, at worst.
4) Agreed, Ferrari's pace here was great actually. But once again, we did not maximise the result.
5) For sure. Mercedes' pace was nothing special, we are far faster than Red Bull and Bottas was struggling against Max.
6) Max, whilst still somewhat overagressive at times, has done the right things. He has shown he is ready to collide and won't back down. This will help him in future because others will be more aware next to him and will be more inclined to back down. This is the Senna/Schumacher way. But his speed is amazing, I am not sure if any driver in F1 could handle him. Maybe Hamilton, but it would be super hard for him. Our drivers are sadly not on the same level
7) I have very high hopes for Charles. If he is what everyone thinks he is, then he has to be on pace of Seb from the first race on. I really think that. Look at Hamilton vs Alonso, for example.
8) There are internal problems within the team for sure.

[doublesixes]

Wished Max wore a red driving suit. If he qualified on pole not even mighty Lewis can overtaking him.

[doublesixes]

Max is definitely wasting time in RBR.

[doublesixes]

Ricci realized that and moved on. Renault might not be the passport to a championship but at least he’s trying. Max should do the same and may find a home in Ferrari.

[Vettel165]

What a plonker that Max, Seb had the corner, and Max didnt give him not a cm.

[Senna4Ever]

What a plonker that Max, Seb had the corner, and Max didnt give him not a cm.

[Brembo]

[QUOTE=Vettel165;992707]What a plonker that Max, Seb had the corner, and Max didnt give him not a cm.

Max don't do team orders !

[FerrariFan]

Leclerc has to be given a fair shot at beating vettel, none of this "learning from the master" rubbish. If he is equal or faster then bye vettel.

[Noquarter]

Vettlel had in his career only one class opponent who destroyed him. Ferrari do not need such a driver.

[WRX202]

Vettlel had in his career only one class opponent who destroyed him. Ferrari do not need such a driver.

BS! if you mean the time Vettel got beat by Daniel may I remind you that for Vettel to leave he had to have a "bad year" as listed in his contract. How many titles has Daniel won yet? Ah right... NIL! It's like saying Rosberg destroyed Lewis coz he won the WDC last when the 2 were still together. Vettel had a bad year and that's all. All drivers do and even Lewis would leave Mercedes to drive for Ferrari, he admitted it himself just before Vettel signed his extension.

Vettel needs a good team around him. Ferrari started well this year (past years were miserable) and screwed everything up mid way through. Yes he did mistakes but as everyone can see our car cannot keep up with the Mercedes with a gap of 0.6sec per lap.

The Mercs were just 0.3sec shy from Ferrari on the harder compound let alone on the equal rubber. Tell me what could Vettel/Kimi do more than drive their car to the limit? You think if Vettel started from p1 he would have crashed with Verstappen? So no, Vettel is much at fault as the rest of the team.

I've read it all: Sensors, Battery tricks, Suspension miracles from Merc, Ice Pack tricks for launch, Flexi wings and the sort. The latest word going around now is that since Sergio died there is a mad power struggle in Ferrari between Binotto and Arrivabene. Sergio kept all under control but with him gone the knives are out. If you look at the events leading to this downfall everything started from his death on-wards so there is strong probability this is for real. Instability within the team is the worst thing you can have. Look at McLaren for an example.

[stefa]

BS! if you mean the time Vettel got beat by Daniel may I remind you that for Vettel to leave he had to have a "bad year" as listed in his contract. How many titles has Daniel won yet? Ah right... NIL! It's like saying Rosberg destroyed Lewis coz he won the WDC last when the 2 were still together. Vettel had a bad year and that's all. All drivers do and even Lewis would leave Mercedes to drive for Ferrari, he admitted it himself just before Vettel signed his extension.

Vettel needs a good team around him. Ferrari started well this year (past years were miserable) and screwed everything up mid way through. Yes he did mistakes but as everyone can see our car cannot keep up with the Mercedes with a gap of 0.6sec per lap.

The Mercs were just 0.3sec shy from Ferrari on the harder compound let alone on the equal rubber. Tell me what could Vettel/Kimi do more than drive their car to the limit? You think if Vettel started from p1 he would have crashed with Verstappen? So no, Vettel is much at fault as the rest of the team.

I've read it all: Sensors, Battery tricks, Suspension miracles from Merc, Ice Pack tricks for launch, Flexi wings and the sort. The latest word going around now is that since Sergio died there is a mad power struggle in Ferrari between Binotto and Arrivabene. Sergio kept all under control but with him gone the knives are out. If you look at the events leading to this downfall everything started from his death on-wards so there is strong probability this is for real. Instability within the team is the worst thing you can have. Look at McLaren for an example.

Well sad! Bravo!

[ScuderiaBuckeye]

Can we please stop lionizing SM now that he is gone? Once again his tenure at Ferrari produced ZERO world championships in F1 of any fashion. You can go back to when he took over Fiat and the results are the same.

This current Ferrari team w/ a poor pit wall (Arrivabene), engine/power performance based solely on exploiting loopholes in the rules that when closed make your performance disappear (Binotto), poor aero correlation between sim and track (???), a mistake-prone #1 driver (Vettel), and an anchor in the 2nd Ferrari who was re-signed to the team as recently as last season (Kimi) was all put together by SM.

At this rate many of you will soon be lamenting the lack of world peace on SM's passing.

[KimiBot]

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1049173971353067522

[FerrariFan]

BS! if you mean the time Vettel got beat by Daniel may I remind you that for Vettel to leave he had to have a "bad year" as listed in his contract. How many titles has Daniel won yet? Ah right... NIL!

Rediculous arguement.

Vettel is only 4 times world champion because of the CAR.

As if Daniel Riccardo wouldn't have been a 4 time champion in that red bull....are you serious

[T99]

Rediculous arguement.

Vettel is only 4 times world champion because of the CAR.

As if Daniel Riccardo wouldn't have been a 4 time champion in that red bull....are you serious

Well webber wasn’t was he?! In 2013 ferrri was already talking to vettel and he told them about the clause in his contract that he could leave it below 4th in the championship, but in 2013 red bull was the most competitive car in vettels hands anyway and there was no chance of getting out of contract, 2014 red bull was nowhere in the title fight so it was the perfect excuse Seb wasn’t even trying in 2014 because he wanted to leave for Ferrari, and after he told red bull he was leaving they stopped giving him updates for his car because he was leaving for a rival team just like riccardo this year has had a disastrous year, and by the way kviat has beaten riccardo in the same red bull car in 2015, so kviat must be the real deal maybe we should give him a seat!

[FerrariFan]

Well webber wasn’t was he?! In 2013 ferrri was already talking to vettel and he told them about the clause in his contract that he could leave it below 4th in the championship, but in 2013 red bull was the most competitive car in vettels hands anyway and there was no chance of getting out of contract, 2014 red bull was nowhere in the title fight so it was the perfect excuse Seb wasn’t even trying in 2014 because he wanted to leave for Ferrari, and after he told red bull he was leaving they stopped giving him updates for his car because he was leaving for a rival team just like riccardo this year has had a disastrous year, and by the way kviat has beaten riccardo in the same red bull car in 2015, so kviat must be the real deal maybe we should give him a seat!

What the hell has Mark Webber got to do with anything? Hes not faster than Daniel Riccardo either, so its a pointless arguement.

Now you are saying Vettel lost in 2014 on purpose just to leave red bull and join Ferrari, interesting theory that, ive got another theory which is much more realistic.

Riccardo is faster than Vettel.

[T99]

What the hell has Mark Webber got to do with anything? Hes not faster than Daniel Riccardo either, so its a pointless arguement.

Now you are saying Vettel lost in 2014 on purpose just to leave red bull and join Ferrari, interesting theory that, ive got another theory which is much more realistic.

Riccardo is faster than Vettel.

Is kviat faster than riccardo then? Is rosberg or button faster than Hamilton?

[ScuderiaBuckeye]

Now you are saying Vettel lost in 2014 on purpose just to leave red bull and join Ferrari, interesting theory that, ive got another theory which is much more realistic.

This is in fact the case. Very early in 2014 it was obvious that Merc was not going to be beaten and Seb would not win another title that year, so he scuppered his own performance to trigger his "out" clause. You can do a google search and learn for yourself things such as how surprised Horner was that he triggered the clause and where precisely Seb had to be in the championship and when in order to trigger his out. When you know the details, it's pretty obvious that Seb did this to himself to go to Ferrari.

[FerrariFan]

Is kviat faster than riccardo then? Is rosberg or button faster than Hamilton?

Riccardo out qualified kyvat 12-7 in 2015

So no is the answer in my book.

Riccardo also outqualifed vettel 10-9 and won 3 races to vettels 0.

[WRX202]

Riccardo out qualified kyvat 12-7 in 2015

So no is the answer in my book.

Riccardo also outqualifed vettel 10-9 and won 3 races to vettels 0.

he won 3 races! Wow! We have a new Senna here ladies & gentlemen! You speak as if you haven't even watched a single F1 race. So explain to me Daniels' current form. Why is he getting beaten by Verstappen, actually wait, why he's getting mopped by Verstappen? Still don't believe that drivers perform according to what they have in mind for the future? Do you at least realise that ever since he signed for Renault he became a zero in RedBull?

Having won 3 races in a season goes to show that the RedBull was on the decline and hence why Vettel was looking for an exit. Drivers look for top teams, it's always been like that.

[Stormsearcher]

he won 3 races! Wow! We have a new Senna here ladies & gentlemen! You speak as if you haven't even watched a single F1 race. So explain to me Daniels' current form. Why is he getting beaten by Verstappen, actually wait, why he's getting mopped by Verstappen? Still don't believe that drivers perform according to what they have in mind for the future? Do you at least realise that ever since he signed for Renault he became a zero in RedBull?

Having won 3 races in a season goes to show that the RedBull was on the decline and hence why Vettel was looking for an exit. Drivers look for top teams, it's always been like that.

OR... Max is very very good. But no one wants to accept that.
And DR is an excellent pilot and in the long run, given the same machinery, will beat Max. As he did vettel.
Max has more flair and is certainly more daring. We needed him in the Ferrari.

[Stormsearcher]

This is in fact the case. Very early in 2014 it was obvious that Merc was not going to be beaten and Seb would not win another title that year, so he scuppered his own performance to trigger his "out" clause. You can do a google search and learn for yourself things such as how surprised Horner was that he triggered the clause and where precisely Seb had to be in the championship and when in order to trigger his out. When you know the details, it's pretty obvious that Seb did this to himself to go to Ferrari.

Then, thats a rotten thing to do. oh well, not really surprised.

[WRX202]

OR... Max is very very good. But no one wants to accept that.
And DR is an excellent pilot and in the long run, given the same machinery, will beat Max. As he did vettel.
Max has more flair and is certainly more daring. We needed him in the Ferrari.

No one said he is not. It's just silly to judge a driver that won 4 titles for one "bad" year.

[FerrariFan]

he won 3 races! Wow! We have a new Senna here ladies & gentlemen! You speak as if you haven't even watched a single F1 race. So explain to me Daniels' current form. Why is he getting beaten by Verstappen, actually wait, why he's getting mopped by Verstappen? Still don't believe that drivers perform according to what they have in mind for the future? Do you at least realise that ever since he signed for Renault he became a zero in RedBull?

Because Max Verstappen is a better driver than Daniel Riccardo. Simple. No silly conspiracy theories about stuff that has no basis in any fact like your arguement.


And both of them are faster and better all around drivers than Vettel as is hamilton and as is Alonso.