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Thread: The FIA shut down Ferrari's Engine Advantage

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by 512 TR View Post

    I for one believe the swing in Mercs favour is down to both the FIA shutting down Ferrari and Merc's development with the new suspension and heat-absorbing new rims. 3-4 tenths because of the shut-down and 3-4 tenths because of Merc's development compared to Ferrari's dito. Had the FIA not shut it down then Ferrari could have affored being outdeveloped by Merc and still be competitive. At least more competitve than in the last three races. Looks like the powers that are took the safe route.
    If the FIA shut down a loophole that is basically cheating then so be it, not much to cry about and blame them for it? We should have been prepared to get found out and have a plan B, seems we never.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    If the FIA shut down a loophole that is basically cheating then so be it, not much to cry about and blame them for it? We should have been prepared to get found out and have a plan B, seems we never.
    But has anyone actually confirmed in public that Ferrari have been cheating, or at least illegally exploiting a loop-hole? It's been kept very quiet despite the rumours and now it seems the FIA are questioning some of Merc's rear wheel cooling properties........the loop-holes are endless, it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    If the FIA shut down a loophole that is basically cheating then so be it, not much to cry about and blame them for it? We should have been prepared to get found out and have a plan B, seems we never.
    How can a loophole be deemed cheating if no one can, officially, explain where the supposed gain comes from? For a governing body that has the mandate to rule on everything in the sport the same rules should apply as in normal civil courts. Meaning the burden of proof is on the prosecutor. It's not enough to just say something is illegal or cheating if it can't be explained. Clearly, Whiting says he can't talk about it because frankly he obviously doesn't know how the system works. It took the FIA a few weeks to pass Mercs new wheel rims even though a similar RBR design was deemed illegal in 2012. It has taken the FIA more than six months to even try to understand Ferrari's system. This is the first time ever something in F1 has been deemed illegal by the FIA without an official explanation. It obviously fits perfectly with helping Merc win it all again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 512 TR View Post
    How can a loophole be deemed cheating if no one can, officially, explain where the supposed gain comes from? For a governing body that has the mandate to rule on everything in the sport the same rules should apply as in normal civil courts. Meaning the burden of proof is on the prosecutor. It's not enough to just say something is illegal or cheating if it can't be explained. Clearly, Whiting says he can't talk about it because frankly he obviously doesn't know how the system works. It took the FIA a few weeks to pass Mercs new wheel rims even though a similar RBR design was deemed illegal in 2012. It has taken the FIA more than six months to even try to understand Ferrari's system. This is the first time ever something in F1 has been deemed illegal by the FIA without an official explanation. It obviously fits perfectly with helping Merc win it all again.
    It's against the spirit of the rules, I imagine if Ferrari kept doing it then someone could protest. Whiting will understand how it works and so will his staff. Post some links to the Red Bull rims being banned and why they are the same as Mercs? And it really is not the first time it's happened we have seen rules being clarified many many times in the past and probably a lot more of it goes on away from the media.

    If what we were doing was not against the rules then we would not have stopped doing it clearly.....did the FIA give Merc the money and staff to spend 30 million just to do the rims and rear suspension? Why spend that when FIA will let them win anyway LOL that sort of claim is rather pathetic in my view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 512 TR View Post
    How can a loophole be deemed cheating if no one can, officially, explain where the supposed gain comes from? For a governing body that has the mandate to rule on everything in the sport the same rules should apply as in normal civil courts. Meaning the burden of proof is on the prosecutor. It's not enough to just say something is illegal or cheating if it can't be explained. Clearly, Whiting says he can't talk about it because frankly he obviously doesn't know how the system works. It took the FIA a few weeks to pass Mercs new wheel rims even though a similar RBR design was deemed illegal in 2012. It has taken the FIA more than six months to even try to understand Ferrari's system. This is the first time ever something in F1 has been deemed illegal by the FIA without an official explanation. It obviously fits perfectly with helping Merc win it all again.
    x2. Perfectly said! The explanation is that Merc need to win and that's it. Whats silly is that the competition would have been good for the sport, not just for Ferrari fans. the FIA, Liberty and Merc robbed the fans of a great season imo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    It's against the spirit of the rules, I imagine if Ferrari kept doing it then someone could protest. Whiting will understand how it works and so will his staff. Post some links to the Red Bull rims being banned and why they are the same as Mercs? And it really is not the first time it's happened we have seen rules being clarified many many times in the past and probably a lot more of it goes on away from the media.

    If what we were doing was not against the rules then we would not have stopped doing it clearly.....did the FIA give Merc the money and staff to spend 30 million just to do the rims and rear suspension? Why spend that when FIA will let them win anyway LOL that sort of claim is rather pathetic in my view.

    https://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/...10/story.shtml

    Snippet from the article:

    Ferrari asked why Mercedes was able to run with a rim design that featured a collection of holes that appeared similar to a concept that Red Bull was banned from using at the 2012 Canadian Grand Prix.

    Red Bull's outlawed rims forced the team to make modifications to its front wheel hubs, because holes that channelled air from the brake ducts to the outside of the wheel were ruled to be moveable aerodynamic devices.


    Under the then-article 3.15 of the Formula 1 Technical Regulations, teams were told that "any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance" must be "rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car" and must remain "immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car".

    Greig, an honest question...why are you always so quick to defend the FIA, Pirelli, Merc and Hamilton? You do run a Ferrari Fan Forum. Its so strange to me....You have to admit that the FIA has made some shady calls over the last few seasons during the Merc dominance. No?
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    It's way worse.
    When you have drivers from other teams moving over for Mercedes (ie. Occon) then openly admitting that they did it under orders, and nothing is done about it, when we've seen cars with merc engines trying to hamper Ferrari cars' races, it's not just about the whole advantage.

    It's about the whole "Mercedes championship" that we're witnessing.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    It's way worse.
    When you have drivers from other teams moving over for Mercedes (ie. Occon) then openly admitting that they did it under orders, and nothing is done about it, when we've seen cars with merc engines trying to hamper Ferrari cars' races, it's not just about the whole advantage.

    It's about the whole "Mercedes championship" that we're witnessing.
    He done it off his own decision not a team order? Has LeClerc not made it easy for our guys to pass lol What cars with Merc engines have tried to hamper our race by doing anything but race? again more fantasy to make you sleep better at night?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrari1.8t View Post
    https://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/...10/story.shtml

    Snippet from the article:

    Ferrari asked why Mercedes was able to run with a rim design that featured a collection of holes that appeared similar to a concept that Red Bull was banned from using at the 2012 Canadian Grand Prix.

    Red Bull's outlawed rims forced the team to make modifications to its front wheel hubs, because holes that channelled air from the brake ducts to the outside of the wheel were ruled to be moveable aerodynamic devices.


    Under the then-article 3.15 of the Formula 1 Technical Regulations, teams were told that "any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance" must be "rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car" and must remain "immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car".

    Greig, an honest question...why are you always so quick to defend the FIA, Pirelli, Merc and Hamilton? You do run a Ferrari Fan Forum. Its so strange to me....You have to admit that the FIA has made some shady calls over the last few seasons during the Merc dominance. No?

    In a bid to clear up the matter, Ferrari elected to query it with the FIA to try to understand if it needed to pursue its own solution or whether Mercedes had pushed things too far.
    Following the Ferrari request, it has emerged that the FIA has looked in detail at the design and concept of the Mercedes hubs and rims – which one source has described as 'interesting'.

    The FIA's investigation has concluded that what Mercedes is doing is very different to the 2012 Red Bull system and is fully in compliance with the regulations.

    Both Mercedes and Ferrari have subsequently been informed about the FIA's ruling on the matter.
    You seem to have not quoted the full article???? why not.....So not the same as Mercs REAR wheels then.....lol

    I am not defending them in particular, just find people blaming FIA etc to be rather embarrassing to Ferrari fans.....you want me to sit here and say oh we are not winning because the FIA said so lol no thanks....you can carry on believing what you want but won't make it true.

    FIA has not stopped us winning this year, our own mistakes and again a development stall has seen us not win, if you would rather say the FIA decided it then so be it. Merc are not some mickey mouse team with no ability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    So not the same as Mercs REAR wheels then.....lol

    I am not defending them in particular, just find people blaming FIA etc to be rather embarrassing to Ferrari fans.....you want me to sit here and say oh we are not winning because the FIA said so lol no thanks....you can carry on believing what you want but won't make it true.

    FIA has not stopped us winning this year, our own mistakes and again a development stall has seen us not win, if you would rather say the FIA decided it then so be it. Merc are not some mickey mouse team with no ability.
    Thanks for your response.

    Merc is not a mickey mouse team, no one is saying that. But its not hard to think there could be larger factors at play when it comes to these championships. All I know is FIA & Mercedes are too close for comfort. Ferrari wins two races it’s a TRICK, shut them down. Mercedes wins 4 races and they are 'engineering geniuses'. There are so many hidden politics in F1 that I believe none of us could ever understand. Anyway, I will continue to follow Ferrari as I always have, although I am very frustrated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrari1.8t View Post
    Thanks for your response.

    Merc is not a mickey mouse team, no one is saying that. But its not hard to think there could be larger factors at play when it comes to these championships. All I know is FIA & Mercedes are too close for comfort. Ferrari wins two races it’s a TRICK, shut them down. Mercedes wins 4 races and they are 'engineering geniuses'. There are so many hidden politics in F1 that I believe none of us could ever understand. Anyway, I will continue to follow Ferrari as I always have, although I am very frustrated.
    The FIA can't influence our mistakes on the pitwall and on the track, unless Seb is also part of the FIA plan?

    What do the FIA get from Merc winning? if anything Merc winning over and over is bad for Liberty so why would they be assisting it?
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    The FIA can't influence our mistakes on the pitwall and on the track, unless Seb is also part of the FIA plan?

    What do the FIA get from Merc winning? if anything Merc winning over and over is bad for Liberty so why would they be assisting it?
    Lots of money? Or maybe it was part of the deal to bring them back into F1 as a manufacturer and not just an engine supplier, guaranteed championships. Not sure really, but it all seems fishy to me.

    Its an old article but...

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/12...-2017-revealed

    "After meeting its agreed target of two world championships, Mercedes earns a special annual payment that matches Red Bull's."

    Agreed target? How could they target championships and guarantee to win them?
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    HMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm LOL interesting.... ... .. .



    hockenheim 2018 / China 2018 : Never forget how quick Ferrari can lose it all, be humble.
    Positivity doesn't win you championships, whining about people being negative makes you blind!
    lol ignore the bitter old cows ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwk360 View Post
    HMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm LOL interesting.... ... .. .


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpuTfAaVsAA1rdL.jpg
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpuTfAKX4AANT6B.jpg
    HHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm so is Matia Binotto givin away our engine secrets to Merc and Co.....maybe
    ...the new SF90 in the MATTE RED, to me it looks amazing. Let's hope it's gonna be as FAST as it looks.


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    That's why we want Italian blood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FerrariF60 View Post
    HHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm so is Matia Binotto givin away our engine secrets to Merc and Co.....maybe
    lol i was posting that as a joke, but saw on twitter some quote about wolff currently keeping his eyes on ferrari's internal situation at the moment (imo could be the MA vs MB stuff about promotions etc)

    we know mercs are smart they steal all the staff they can so that they weaken the other teams and have extra resource pools. Its like playing for an international team but then getting an offer to play in an all star team or something. Mercs particularly like nabbing ferrari guys too. so never know maybe binotto is going bon voyage next year since MA looks to be staying lol maybe its all dirt and rumors sites spreading since there's nothing really interesting happening in f1 for awhile now
    hockenheim 2018 / China 2018 : Never forget how quick Ferrari can lose it all, be humble.
    Positivity doesn't win you championships, whining about people being negative makes you blind!
    lol ignore the bitter old cows ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrari1.8t View Post
    Lots of money? Or maybe it was part of the deal to bring them back into F1 as a manufacturer and not just an engine supplier, guaranteed championships. Not sure really, but it all seems fishy to me.

    Its an old article but...

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/12...-2017-revealed

    "After meeting its agreed target of two world championships, Mercedes earns a special annual payment that matches Red Bull's."

    Agreed target? How could they target championships and guarantee to win them?
    Just like we agree to get more than the rest regardless? FIA don't decide who gets what money that's nothing to do with them thats up to the owners of the sport, do they fix all the other series they govern out of interest or just F1?

    So all our mistakes this year are part of the FIA plan? come on we have lost it all on our own.

    p.s at least the Leafs are doing well
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Just like we agree to get more than the rest regardless? FIA don't decide who gets what money that's nothing to do with them thats up to the owners of the sport, do they fix all the other series they govern out of interest or just F1?

    So all our mistakes this year are part of the FIA plan? come on we have lost it all on our own.

    p.s at least the Leafs are doing well
    Hey, I don’t have all the answers, just a lot of questions and silly suspicions I guess. It sucks more when it “seems” Merc is getting their way or help of any kind from the FIA/Liberty.

    And yes, at least one of my teams is finally doing well! Go Leafs Go!! Lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwk360 View Post
    HMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm LOL interesting.... ... .. .
    Ferrari want to sign Toto Wolff?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrari1.8t View Post
    Lots of money? Or maybe it was part of the deal to bring them back into F1 as a manufacturer and not just an engine supplier, guaranteed championships. Not sure really, but it all seems fishy to me.

    Its an old article but...

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/12...-2017-revealed

    "After meeting its agreed target of two world championships, Mercedes earns a special annual payment that matches Red Bull's."

    Agreed target? How could they target championships and guarantee to win them?
    You don't understand how targets work.

    If you boss goes, Make two sales and I give you a bonus. You are not guaranteed those two sales, you have to aim to meet it.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    It's against the spirit of the rules, I imagine if Ferrari kept doing it then someone could protest. Whiting will understand how it works and so will his staff. Post some links to the Red Bull rims being banned and why they are the same as Mercs? And it really is not the first time it's happened we have seen rules being clarified many many times in the past and probably a lot more of it goes on away from the media.
    There is no such "rule" as being agianst the spirit of the rules. That's an MSM invention and up until today it has never flied in any legal process conducted by the FIA. Either something is clearly against the written rules or it's not. Most stuff that is deemed questionable is very often given the pass by the FIA and some times a redesign is later given the go ahead. Obviously the Ferrari system can't be redesign in-season but can only be turned off.

    The link to the news about the RBR rims were posted here above by ferrari1.8t. It went' pretty swiftly for the FIA to declare the Merc rims as legal and why that is on the basis of the illegal RBR rims. Meaning that there is a difference according to the FIA. They clearly now explained why they think the Merc rims are legal. I never said the Merc rims were illegal, only similar to RBR's. No such clarification about the Ferrari system has emerged and probably never will.

    If what we were doing was not against the rules then we would not have stopped doing it clearly.....did the FIA give Merc the money and staff to spend 30 million just to do the rims and rear suspension? Why spend that when FIA will let them win anyway LOL that sort of claim is rather pathetic in my view.
    That's a good question. The only explanation, besides going down the "incompetent" route, is that there is something more than can be unleashed next year which will make this row seem like nothing.

    The new Merc rims and suspension may not have been enough for Merc to clearly start winning easily again. They might also not have been sure if the development would work, hence the help from the FIA just in case. Now both their development and the "help" worked in tandem.
    Last edited by 512 TR; 18th October 2018 at 11:11.

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    I doubt Binotto and Wolf will make conspiracies against Ferrari out in the open like that

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    lol it was just a joke, i believe they are quite old pics, but wolff is interested in the internal guys of ferrari at the moment with all the inner conflict and changes, would suck to lose more guys to mercs
    hockenheim 2018 / China 2018 : Never forget how quick Ferrari can lose it all, be humble.
    Positivity doesn't win you championships, whining about people being negative makes you blind!
    lol ignore the bitter old cows ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by evo_spook View Post
    You don't understand how targets work.

    If you boss goes, Make two sales and I give you a bonus. You are not guaranteed those two sales, you have to aim to meet it.
    I understand how targets work. I just find is suspicious how a team with Merc's record coming back into F1 would set those targets. They were a mid-field team at best. Would Haas, Force India, Marussia, Cateram etc have targeted WCC's coming into the sport? Not likely. Even Hamilton signing with them shocked the F1 world, as if he knew of what was to come...

    Its all about money. Maybe Brawn still has a share in the profits after the sale of Brawn GP to Mercedes. More conspiracy theories I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrari1.8t View Post
    I understand how targets work. I just find is suspicious how a team with Merc's record coming back into F1 would set those targets. They were a mid-field team at best. Would Haas, Force India, Marussia, Cateram etc have targeted WCC's coming into the sport? Not likely. Even Hamilton signing with them shocked the F1 world, as if he knew of what was to come...

    Its all about money. Maybe Brawn still has a share in the profits after the sale of Brawn GP to Mercedes. More conspiracy theories I guess.
    eh?!

    Mercedes have being supplying top engines for decades.

    The team set up by Brawn had recently won a WDC and know what they was doing if given a budget.

    Lewis was informed of the mercs potential when signing up. Merc had geared 2012 and 2013 to winning in 2014.

    You are talking nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evo_spook View Post
    eh?!

    Mercedes have being supplying top engines for decades.

    The team set up by Brawn had recently won a WDC and know what they was doing if given a budget.

    Lewis was informed of the mercs potential when signing up. Merc had geared 2012 and 2013 to winning in 2014.

    You are talking nonsense.
    From 2010 - 2013 (V8 Era), they were consistently 4 and 5 in the WCC as manufactures. Hamilton would sign with a 5th place team merely based on potential? No nonsense here, just my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrari1.8t View Post
    Thanks for your response.

    Merc is not a mickey mouse team, no one is saying that. But its not hard to think there could be larger factors at play when it comes to these championships. All I know is FIA & Mercedes are too close for comfort. Ferrari wins two races it’s a TRICK, shut them down. Mercedes wins 4 races and they are 'engineering geniuses'. There are so many hidden politics in F1 that I believe none of us could ever understand. Anyway, I will continue to follow Ferrari as I always have, although I am very frustrated.
    Have to agree, and Greig mentions a 'development stall' but it just doesn't add up that we can go backwards so quickly, that's not even taking into account any mistakes by Seb or the pit-wall. It's obviously true that the final stage of this year's championship will now be a dumbed-down affair and the FIA's leniency towards Mercedes (special tyres/wheels etc) will not please Liberty, nor the fans who wanted to see a championship worth watching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 512 TR View Post
    There is no such "rule" as being agianst the spirit of the rules. That's an MSM invention and up until today it has never flied in any legal process conducted by the FIA. Either something is clearly against the written rules or it's not. Most stuff that is deemed questionable is very often given the pass by the FIA and some times a redesign is later given the go ahead. Obviously the Ferrari system can't be redesign in-season but can only be turned off.

    The link to the news about the RBR rims were posted here above by ferrari1.8t. It went' pretty swiftly for the FIA to declare the Merc rims as legal and why that is on the basis of the illegal RBR rims. Meaning that there is a difference according to the FIA. They clearly now explained why they think the Merc rims are legal. I never said the Merc rims were illegal, only similar to RBR's. No such clarification about the Ferrari system has emerged and probably never will.



    That's a good question. The only explanation, besides going down the "incompetent" route, is that there is something more than can be unleashed next year which will make this row seem like nothing.

    The new Merc rims and suspension may not have been enough for Merc to clearly start winning easily again. They might also not have been sure if the development would work, hence the help from the FIA just in case. Now both their development and the "help" worked in tandem.
    If the rev limit is 17k but Ferrari find a way to bypass the rev counter and run 19k then that would be against the spirit of the rules, yes it does exist and the FIA are very often having to clarify rules based on this. Ferrari seem to have bypassed the FIA way to measure boost, clearly this is not legal but they have not broken any rules just the spirit of the rules hence why the FIA have probably told us to stop it or else face a protest and risk losing race results.

    The Merc rear hubs are not the same as the RBR front wheels, when teams come up with these ideas they don't just make them and hope they are legal they will be in contact with the FIA and make sure they are legal. FIA only clarified because Ferrari asked, probably so we can develop the same idea. The FIA also said our battery system was legal at first, but I guess they got some more info that resulted in them realising what was really going on hence more sensors and our sudden loss of the extra boost.

    It seems you will just believe that the FIA are out to help Merc for no valid reason and anything else you will just ignore so there really is not much point trying to debate it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wisepie View Post
    Have to agree, and Greig mentions a 'development stall' but it just doesn't add up that we can go backwards so quickly, that's not even taking into account any mistakes by Seb or the pit-wall. It's obviously true that the final stage of this year's championship will now be a dumbed-down affair and the FIA's leniency towards Mercedes (special tyres/wheels etc) will not please Liberty, nor the fans who wanted to see a championship worth watching.
    The special tyres we won Silverstone with and could have France if not for a Seb mistake? How can we blame the FIA for that? Have we gone backwards or it simply we have stalled and Merc have gone forwards? Looks to me we were using the extra boost to make all our time on the straights meaning we could run more downforce, now we have to run less downforce to regain straightline speed at the cost of sliding around more and hurting our tyres....

    Without all our mistakes then I have no doubt we would be winning the title this year, we would have been well clear of Lewis and they probably would not have spent so much in this years development war.
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    If only Sergio were alive....

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