Thread: Ferrari SF90

  1. #571
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    You can thank Pirelli for destroying f1 the science in the tyres only mercedes understand why one must ask.All other teams up and down the grid are suffering with these spaghetti thin tyres whilst Pirelli supply f1 with tyres mercedes are at the top of the pile why ?

  2. #572
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    Ferrari SF90

    Quote Originally Posted by Giallo 550 View Post
    This sport is in dire need of a reformation.
    To help yourself, go and watch some YouTube onboard videos from pre 2008 era. I do it sometimes to recharge myself. This formula is crap, V6s, they save tyres, battery, engine, and to add to misery, one team is doing kickass job for too long now.
    “I prefer to beat them on Sunday” -Fernando Alonso, Press Conference Korean GP 2010

    "Giornata fantastica !!"- Andrea Stella, European GP 2012


  3. #573
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    Money, "The root of all evil! " Everyone making the big bucks; win or lose causes the laying back calm @ Ferrari . Starting with Seb and across the board, work is a dream come true. Ferrari fans only have the race results to enjoy, be it WDC or the WCC. Just what can't these hand picked experts figure out? Not even the tires seem easy. On the track Seb for sure has strong competition as far as actually racing to be a winner. He should not be held at all responsible for the car not being the best it can be. And as far as who's on 1st. should be determined during each race, no 1, 2 preferences as to who's who. I find the races for the podium spots still exciting enough to look forward to each race, ohhhh ! would I like to see that win become in Ferraris reach. There's still time .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rishu View Post
    To help yourself, go and watch some YouTube onboard videos from pre 2008 era. I do it sometimes to recharge myself. This formula is crap, V6s, they save tyres, battery, engine, and to add to misery, one team is doing kickass job for too long now.
    A few days ago I re-saw Michael in the Monaco rain. It was at the beginning with Ferrari. He absolutely dominated that race. Only three other cars remained unlaped.
    Last edited by IulianFerrari; 18th May 2019 at 08:45.

  5. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by IulianFerrari View Post
    A few days ago I re-saw Michael in the Monaco rain. It was at the beginning with Ferrari. He absolutely dominated that race. Only three other cars remained unlaped.
    It will rain in Monaco next week in qualifying, race is expected to remain rain free.

  6. #576
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    Hey guys, out team is in trouble. I think they are not organized and they believe too much of their own hype. It was very bad for them to go to the winter tests and be satisfed. They should have seen the data, and trusted the data and also the video evidence. I thought seb was not pushing in the last sector, but I guess he was pushing, but the car had no grip. Also, Mercedes always had a rear steer system, you can tell in testing, how the car was turning on its own axies. I commented on it last year in testing. But this year, they have gone a step further. I think they have mechanically linked the front and rear suspension together with the rear steer. What I noticed in Australia is how the Mercedes has so much grip at the front, but it is not grip from the front tiers, but the rear steer working even when off the brakes to get the car turned, the car did not slide out at all, it sat there like it was on a rail, in low speeds, so its not possible to create downforce at low speeds, but the rear steer is working to keep the car turning. I think they are letting the brakes drag while still in the turn until the steering is straight.
    Our team, on the other hands, ended few of the testing days early, saying they have nothing else to learn, this is the attitude when fighting for a championship?? Its crazy, maybe Vettel knew about it.

  7. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by paolo lalli View Post
    You can thank Pirelli for destroying f1 the science in the tyres only mercedes understand why one must ask.All other teams up and down the grid are suffering with these spaghetti thin tyres whilst Pirelli supply f1 with tyres mercedes are at the top of the pile why ?
    As much as I dislike Pirelli tyres, they are the same for everyone.

    Tyre temperature issues are a result of how the aero and mechanical balance of the car work the tyres on the given surface. So it's never the tyres, it's how the car works the tyres. And in the past Mercedes suffered greatly with tyre temperature, so it's not like they always had pirelli tyres under control.

    Last year Red Bull had the best car interns of tyre wear, but Mercedes after introducing the Singapore upgrades, pretty much got on top of their tyre issue. And they improved it further with this years car.

  8. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by mardyrt View Post
    Hey guys, out team is in trouble. I think they are not organized and they believe too much of their own hype. It was very bad for them to go to the winter tests and be satisfed. They should have seen the data, and trusted the data and also the video evidence. I thought seb was not pushing in the last sector, but I guess he was pushing, but the car had no grip. Also, Mercedes always had a rear steer system, you can tell in testing, how the car was turning on its own axies. I commented on it last year in testing. But this year, they have gone a step further. I think they have mechanically linked the front and rear suspension together with the rear steer. What I noticed in Australia is how the Mercedes has so much grip at the front, but it is not grip from the front tiers, but the rear steer working even when off the brakes to get the car turned, the car did not slide out at all, it sat there like it was on a rail, in low speeds, so its not possible to create downforce at low speeds, but the rear steer is working to keep the car turning. I think they are letting the brakes drag while still in the turn until the steering is straight.
    Our team, on the other hands, ended few of the testing days early, saying they have nothing else to learn, this is the attitude when fighting for a championship?? Its crazy, maybe Vettel knew about it.
    This is illegal. I am sure if they had such a system everyone would know it and we would have seen at least a leak.
    Remember the oil burning.

    And, we would have some video evidence for that.

  9. #579
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    Helmut Marko on Monaco:

    Although the Mercedes has the longest wheelbase, their advantage there will be even bigger, they’re true traction monsters and that’s the nuts and bolts of Monaco. We’ve found something, but it’s not enough.

    If Ferrari can not generate downforce and traction, they’ll probably only finish sixth or seventh in Monaco, but their weakness was evident in the last race in Barcelona, ​​which is most reminiscent of Monaco, their engine is very good but they lacked downforce and extreme traction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tpe View Post
    This is illegal. I am sure if they had such a system everyone would know it and we would have seen at least a leak.
    Remember the oil burning.

    And, we would have some video evidence for that.
    You cannot show it on video, it is hard to proove with data. They use the tolerance in braking from left to right wheel, because it is a brake by wire system and each wheel must be set that the brake force must be applied equally. But this equality has to have a tolerance, you cannot say both wheels must be equal, if 40% brake power applied to both equally, you have slight differences in lenth of the pipe, and the brake ware and many other factors can influence it. So you must give it some tolerance. So, lets say you have 5% tolerance, for each wheel. So, if you apply 100%, for each wheel, then right wheel can have 105% and the left can have 95%, that is a 10% difference from wheel to wheel. Mercedes use this tolerance, tighten it in their design, lets say to 3%, so, in their car, they can have a tolerance of 103% to 97%. It 6% difference, but you still have a 4% difference that is allowed by the rules. So you can use this 4% to apply the brakes for rear steer. It is not illegal. There is no way you can proove it is being used. IT is within tolerance and no one will see it, except for the people who had designed it. They can also apply the diff settings to help. To get the turn in after the apex, when applying throttle, you just let the brakes drag, loose pressure slowly, so the effect will still be there and it also helps with traction because the inner wheel is the wheel with the least load, outer wheel is the wheel with the highest load so the most traction is on the other wheel so when the power goes to that wheel, it put better power down on the ground. Better traction. It also helps to turn the car, transfer weight to the front outside wheel, so you get better traction on the front as well.
    Last edited by mardyrt; 18th May 2019 at 16:20.

  11. #581
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    The mercedes car is very good but i think they are doing something clever with there hybrid engine in the corners.
    Some people say they are using rear wheel steering but thats illegal. I believe they are using regenarative braking in the corners when they go off throttle.

    This system would help them immensely in the corners since using this system they would able to brake less and getting on the throttle much sooner.

    Guys look it up and tell its me it s not possible. Regenarative braking with electric engines.

  12. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpe View Post
    This is illegal. I am sure if they had such a system everyone would know it and we would have seen at least a leak.
    Remember the oil burning.

    And, we would have some video evidence for that.
    There was a leak, in the italian press, they had it last year in testing, you can tell in the video for the keen eye, there was brake steer. This year it is even more, and by using the trick front suspension they have, they can translate the shift in weight to better traction on the front wheels. IT is not illegal, they are using the tolerances, and you cannot prove they are using it because they can just say, hey, we are within your tolerances, so we are ok.

  13. #583
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTRSMAD View Post
    The mercedes car is very good but i think they are doing something clever with there hybrid engine in the corners.
    Some people say they are using rear wheel steering but thats illegal. I believe they are using regenarative braking in the corners when they go off throttle.

    This system would help them immensely in the corners since using this system they would able to brake less and getting on the throttle much sooner.

    Guys look it up and tell its me it s not possible. Regenarative braking with electric engines.
    They use the brake force tolereances to play with the steering. There are no individual motors on each wheel, it is on the engine, the force is only applied by the brakes, this is no other way for the wheels to be slowed down individually. The electric motor is in the engine.

  14. #584
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    Thats the point. Engine braking using the hybrid system of the car.

  15. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTRSMAD View Post
    Thats the point. Engine braking using the hybrid system of the car.
    It is not related to the hybrid engine, it is done just by brakes. You cannot send power to individually, there are no regenrative units in the wheels, only brakes. So, only way you have is to use differing forces in each wheel and that can only by caused by brakes.

  16. #586
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    Here is what come out when you google: Regenarative braking with electric engines


    Regenerative braking uses an electric vehicle's motor as a generator to convert much of the kinetic energy lost when decelerating back into stored energy in the vehicle's battery. ... It takes the inefficiency of braking and simply makes the process less wasteful.

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    This regenarative process not only regens the battery but slows the car down too and when do you slow down in a formula 1 car? In the corners.

  18. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTRSMAD View Post
    Here is what come out when you google: Regenarative braking with electric engines


    Regenerative braking uses an electric vehicle's motor as a generator to convert much of the kinetic energy lost when decelerating back into stored energy in the vehicle's battery. ... It takes the inefficiency of braking and simply makes the process less wasteful.
    Yes, this is the theory. In F1, there is an electric motor that is built into the engine. It is connected to the crankshaft with chains or with a few gears. Then, when the car is braking, it uses the wheel speed coming through the gearbox, through the crankshaft to turn the electric motor, generating electricity. When you need power, or boost, the electric motor turns and supply power to the crankshaft, then it will go through the gearbox to the wheels. You do not have an electric motor on each wheel, it will be to heavy plus it will be very difficult to develop such a small motor fit in to the wheels that is light enough.

  19. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTRSMAD View Post
    This regenarative process not only regens the battery but slows the car down too and when do you slow down in a formula 1 car? In the corners.
    All cars do this, even with internal combustion engines do it, its called engine braking. But, you can slow the car down this way, but to steer, you have to apply to each wheel. Just applying brakes will not turn the car, you have to selectively apply to each wheel. Its similar to stability control in modern cars, they apply brakes to individual wheel to stop you from sliding off in a corner.

  20. #590
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    well if it's true Mercedes have by far the best car for Monte Carlo, it's hard to imagine anything else than another Lewis win. I mean i could be wrong, but I don't really see Bottas beating him.

    note to self: place bet on Lewis at bookies

  21. #591
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    Let s get this straight the front wheels brake and steer.
    The rear wheels do the the propulsion and the braking but they cannot steer. There is no rear steering or traction control in formula 1.

    The feeling of regenarative braking is like trail braking but with the rear wheels. It slows the car down while regenerating the battery. Basically you control the car only with one pedal: the accelarator.

    Why do think the ferrari can hang with mercedes in the fast sweeping corners but falls apart when they come off the throttle to take corners? Cause the mercedes use regenerative braking off throttle to slow down and accelerates through corners.

  22. #592
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    Mercedes in the slow corners.

    Mercedes are using a special rear suspension geometry and a brake-by-wire system for the rear that SIMULATES rear wheel steering; this is also in correlation with the rake of the W10 which has the lowest degree rake angle(thereby lowering the center of gravity) but at the same time has a wheelbase like the SF90.

    RedBull has the shortest WB but a higher rake. The RedBull WB and rake angle philosophy is out the window.

    Currently, it's not about gaining horspower because IMO, MB have maxed out all the hp along with the deployement of the MGU's.

    The W10 is on another level with this suspension geometry and simulated rear wheel steering in the slow corners.

    Ferrari can......no need to lodge a "illegality" complaint to the FIA saying MB are using rear wheel steering ONLY to find out how this complex system works to employ in the 2020 car.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  23. #593
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    The technical regulation prevent any types of ABS and the suspension is not doing anything magical on the Mercedes.

    Did you notice how Ferrari are under steered in most corners while Mercedes as incredible turn in? Regen braking. Read up on it cause its being applied by mercedes.

    Here is a short video in action if you want to learn about something today...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYD93umvADc

    You can control the amount of regan braking force applied off throttle.

  24. #594
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTRSMAD View Post
    The technical regulation prevent any types of ABS and the suspension is not doing anything magical on the Mercedes.
    I published MB suspension geometry and simulted rear wheel steering from Italian Motorsport dated the last quarter of 2018 in the season. I still have that issue should you like to read it.

    This issue, published yesterday at time of this post, also re-afirms MB suspesion geometry and brake-by-wire SIMULATED rear wheel steering.



    MPH: How Mercedes is leaving Ferrari behind

    “The limitations of the car were highlighted this weekend,” said a downbeat Mattia Binotto post-Spanish Grand Prix. “They were already present in other races in the season. It may even be in the concept of the car.”

    The performance pattern between the Mercedes and Ferrari has been very distinct this season, much more so in the last couple of years. Essentially, the Ferrari has lower drag and more power (in the high engine modes, at least) but the Mercedes has more downforce.

    How those traits play out vary according to the circuit layouts. But it’s in the specifics of where the apparent downforce difference shows itself that may be of significance. “Yes, it’s not only downforce,” allows Binotto. “There’s something more… something we need to analyse.”

    What he’s almost certainly referring to is how the Ferrari loses big chunks of time to the Mercedes in slow corners. Earlier in the season, at least, there was very little difference between their speed through the faster corners; it just wasn’t able to live with how the Mercedes could devour the slow ones. With Mercedes’ big Barcelona upgrade around the front wing and barge boards, it was faster through every corner. But still, the biggest differentiator was the slow turns, particularly sector three with its slow left-right flick of a chicane. Mercedes was taking a massive 0.65sec from Ferrari through there in qualifying (the Mercedes was 0.8sec quicker over the lap).

    Despite being a significantly longer car, the Mercedes is particularly adept at changing direction at slow speeds. The Ferrari is notably poor at this and carries a limiting understeer balance. These traits have been very clear from Albert Park all the way to Barcelona even at those places where the Ferrari has been quick over the lap. In the case of both cars, it seems there may be a mechanical element associated with the performance.

    Mercedes has been experimenting for some time with simulating the effects of rear-wheel steering – either in the tolerances allowed within the suspension geometry and/or in the brake-by-wire software. It was very apparent last year through the final turn at Austin, in the car’s enhanced rotation upon turn in. It looked like the beginnings of a rear slide, only then to straighten itself up once it was pointed at the apex. It’s the sort of trait a driver can amplify by how and where he comes off the brakes, but the car needs to be responsive to this – and the Mercedes was visibly so at that place last year. But it wasn’t always so obvious – and the W10 hasn’t always looked like this in the early part of 2019. The suggestion is that the feature has been tricky to set up. A breakthrough of sorts may have been made in understanding at Baku – between the practices of Friday evening and Saturday morning. Certainly at Barcelona, the W10 had the responsive slow corner reactions of a much smaller car even while enhancing its massive high-speed aero performance.

    Meanwhile at Ferrari, there’s a recurring story of a new front suspension being trialled back at the factory but not yet raced. Difficult to know at the moment if this is real or mythical. The theory goes that the SF90 was originally designed with this suspension and that its aerodynamics were conceived around it, but that it suffered a breakage (either in testing or on the rig at the factory), causing Ferrari to adapt a version of last year’s suspension to the new car. This is all just hearsay from Italy so far – and not something that Ferrari has come close to confirming. Certainly in pre-season testing there was nothing visually obvious suggesting a different suspension to that currently on the car.

    https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...mpression=true
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    I think Binotto as read the same article as you last year thats why they are still slow.

    Its all speculation and i am giving my opinion because nobody actually knows what they are doing except Mercedes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TTRSMAD View Post
    Let s get this straight the front wheels brake and steer.
    The rear wheels do the the propulsion and the braking but they cannot steer. There is no rear steering or traction control in formula 1.

    The feeling of regenarative braking is like trail braking but with the rear wheels. It slows the car down while regenerating the battery. Basically you control the car only with one pedal: the accelarator.

    Why do think the ferrari can hang with mercedes in the fast sweeping corners but falls apart when they come off the throttle to take corners? Cause the mercedes use regenerative braking off throttle to slow down and accelerates through corners.
    You cannot trailbrake so easily with F1 cars, the forces you apply in F1 cars, its not like in regular cars. The snap is so quick, it is very hard to catch. You can do some, but most of your braking is done on a straight line, but you can still slow the car down into the apex but very slightly. THere is no physical rear steering in F1, but you can steer the car with the brakes. When you go into a corner, if you brakes your inner wheel more than your right wheel, it is like steering, you will turn into the corner. All cars have regenerative braking, they use the rear wheels to turn the electric motor in the engine. Even if you slow down, you still have to turn. Ferrari can hang in the fast corners because Mercedes cannot use brake steer in fast corners, because there are no braking in fast corners and even if there are braking in fast corners, you cannot apply a system like that, because the car will slide off. That is why in slow corners they gain so much, because they can steer. You can see in Melbourne, we gained on the in the initial braking phase, but when turning in to the corner, they make up loads of time. Also, they have almost no understeer in slow corners, its like they are chained to a post. This is because they use the braking difference in rear wheels to turn the car.

  27. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by mardyrt View Post
    You cannot trailbrake so easily with F1 cars, the forces you apply in F1 cars, its not like in regular cars. The snap is so quick, it is very hard to catch. You can do some, but most of your braking is done on a straight line, but you can still slow the car down into the apex but very slightly. THere is no physical rear steering in F1, but you can steer the car with the brakes. When you go into a corner, if you brakes your inner wheel more than your right wheel, it is like steering, you will turn into the corner. All cars have regenerative braking, they use the rear wheels to turn the electric motor in the engine. Even if you slow down, you still have to turn. Ferrari can hang in the fast corners because Mercedes cannot use brake steer in fast corners, because there are no braking in fast corners and even if there are braking in fast corners, you cannot apply a system like that, because the car will slide off. That is why in slow corners they gain so much, because they can steer. You can see in Melbourne, we gained on the in the initial braking phase, but when turning in to the corner, they make up loads of time. Also, they have almost no understeer in slow corners, its like they are chained to a post. This is because they use the braking difference in rear wheels to turn the car.
    That could be it.

  28. #598
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    Ferrari say quick turnaround possible but we do not know exactly where the problems are.What on earth does that mean? The problem is way bigger than they are saying this will be evident at the next race then what is binotto going to state interesting and difficult times ahead.

  29. #599
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    Quote Originally Posted by mardyrt View Post
    You cannot trailbrake so easily with F1 cars, the forces you apply in F1 cars, its not like in regular cars. The snap is so quick, it is very hard to catch. You can do some, but most of your braking is done on a straight line, but you can still slow the car down into the apex but very slightly. THere is no physical rear steering in F1, but you can steer the car with the brakes. When you go into a corner, if you brakes your inner wheel more than your right wheel, it is like steering, you will turn into the corner. All cars have regenerative braking, they use the rear wheels to turn the electric motor in the engine. Even if you slow down, you still have to turn. Ferrari can hang in the fast corners because Mercedes cannot use brake steer in fast corners, because there are no braking in fast corners and even if there are braking in fast corners, you cannot apply a system like that, because the car will slide off. That is why in slow corners they gain so much, because they can steer. You can see in Melbourne, we gained on the in the initial braking phase, but when turning in to the corner, they make up loads of time. Also, they have almost no understeer in slow corners, its like they are chained to a post. This is because they use the braking difference in rear wheels to turn the car.
    Nicely argued.

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  30. #600
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    Lol the only of the top three teams that have improved in the sector 3 in Barcelona compared to last year was Mercedes and by some margin. Even redbull went backwards i won't even mention Ferrari ...

    arctile here https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/s...onaco/4392210/

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