2019 China GP: Race

[Brembo]

Vettel is the #1 guy @ Ferrari . Since he's here he hasn't won. He's not driving #1 . Lewis is. Comparing Charles after 3 races with Seb is ridiculous. Tell Seb he's #2 driver for the next 3 races and has to move over for Charles if needed. Then compare how the races turn out. If the car causes a DNF , don't count it against either driver it happens to. Go another race. Charles is doing great at Ferrari since he started , Seb a 4x champion, is doing poorly @ Ferrari. He's not winning !

[Lesky]

How is Vettel that guy though? They've had the car to win 2017 and 2018 but his errors cost them that chance.

Come on. Thats blatantly untrue. I can not believe anyone on this board still believe this myth. Hamilton won the title by almost 100 points,
and doing so while running a conservative strategy the entire 2nd half of the racing calendar.

Hamilton pretty much cruised around and as soon as he were in a tight battle with for example Max, he just let him pass to be safe. As we can see over the years Merc is
playing it safe with the engine modes in the first half of the season and tune it up for the 2nd half, its happening every year.

Hamilton could have won with 150 points if he had pushed himself and the car to the maximum. There was no way Ferrari could have won the title last year.

I was completely devastated after Vettel crashed in germany, but it quickly became a non factor as it was clear the Mercs were far superior.

There is no basis for claiming Ferrari could have won last year, the first half of the season, it swung race by race. And the 2nd half Mercedes wiped the floor with everyone, its not rocket science to figure that out.

We all know Vettel choked last year, no ones denying that, but its just laughable to claim Ferrari had a car to actually win the title.

[Rishu]

Come on. Thats blatantly untrue. I can not believe anyone on this board still believe this myth. Hamilton won the title by almost 100 points,
and doing so while running a conservative strategy the entire 2nd half of the racing calendar.

Hamilton pretty much cruised around and as soon as he were in a tight battle with for example Max, he just let him pass to be safe. As we can see over the years Merc is
playing it safe with the engine modes in the first half of the season and tune it up for the 2nd half, its happening every year.

Hamilton could have won with 150 points if he had pushed himself and the car to the maximum. There was no way Ferrari could have won the title last year.

I was completely devastated after Vettel crashed in germany, but it quickly became a non factor as it was clear the Mercs were far superior.

There is no basis for claiming Ferrari could have won last year, the first half of the season, it swung race by race. And the 2nd half Mercedes wiped the floor with everyone, its not rocket science to figure that out.

We all know Vettel choked last year, no ones denying that, but its just laughable to claim Ferrari had a car to actually win the title.

Can not back it up with numbers but I have watched enough F1 in last two decades to know Michael & Fernando could’ve won title in last year’s car or at least taken the fight to the final race. I do agree in second half of the season Merc were better, but Hamilton won the title in first half when he didn’t have quickest car but still racked up maximum possible points to stay in hunt

[Lesky]

Can not back it up with numbers but I have watched enough F1 in last two decades to know Michael & Fernando could’ve won title in last year’s car or at least taken the fight to the final race. I do agree in second half of the season Merc were better, but Hamilton won the title in first half when he didn’t have quickest car but still racked up maximum possible points to stay in hunt

I disagree even though I am a huge Schumacher fan and rate Alonso as the 2nd best Ferrari driver in modern time. Would they have been closer to Hamilton? Yes, for sure, no doubts as Vettel is a lesser driver than both of them. Would they have been able to perform a miracle? No. Like I said, Lewis almost won by 100 points playing it safe and not even being pushed through the 2nd half of the year, I have no doubt Merc had lots to play with if needed. I can not reach any other conclusion. And yes, Hamilton performed excellent during the first half of the season, but Ferrari had a minor advantage at most during the first half.

For example, Hamilton was set for an easy win in the first race, before a virtual safety car gifted Vettel the win. And many people still claim that "OMG Ferrari was way faster than Mercedes from the first race" - when in reality Lewis would have won easily if no VSC came out. Thats just an example of people trying to re-write history. Its mostly Hamilton fans who wants to create the picture of Hamilton each year by himself wrestling an inferior car to the title even though there is no truth to it. And yet they fail to mention Hamilton is the only one of the BIG drivers that have lost a WDC to a teammate with a dominating car.

The Mercedes domination is far beyond the domination Ferrari had under the Schumacher era, its not even close, I remember seeing stats of it last season and its only gotten worse since then with Mercs advantage only increasing the last 10 races or so.
---
And now for the second myth - the reason Alonso could combat Vettel with a lesser car:

Answer: Vettel and Webber battled it out and were crashing out, having car failures all over the place, while Alonso just played it smart and kept his cool in midfield and gained ALOT of positions and points while the top dogs were battling each other and making silly mistakes and having mechanical retirements.

The fact is had Vettel and Webber just driven clean, Alonso would have had no chance whatsoever. Dont get me wrong, this is not a knock on Alonso. Alonso did perform AMAZINGLY well, but he still would not have stood a chance if the others had not made so many silly mistakes. And thats also one of the reasons why people are wrong when they claim Alonso would have won last years title. He would not, because Hamilton was not going to have multiple mechanical failures and other DNF by running off road or into other cars, which was key to Alonso being able to compete with Vettel in 2010 and 2012. And yeah, that means Hamilton is in an entire different ballgame than Vettel, not just on pace, but most of all with smartness and ability to stay out trouble and focus on the championship. Alonso were even superior to Schumacher in that regard, he was a genius on strategy and always cool and collected, never lost any points due to mistakes that could easily be avoided. Schumacher on the other was a hot head and threw away valuable points by his agressive driving.

[Vettel165]

How is Vettel that guy though? They've had the car to win 2017 and 2018 but his errors cost them that chance.

With a picture of Alonso on a profile its hard to take your opinion about Seb serious really. Still salty probably about 2010,2012. Mercedes still had a faster car in 17,18.

[stefa]

Guys instead of ping pong with comments about Ferrari drivers, can't you see that the problem is AGAIN mediocre car!?!?

[Senna4Ever]

Just for the records
and not only Hughes as the pole position for the philosophers stone

so interesting articel from Benson

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/47926537


The gap might look big to Merc right now but only 3 races gone - many left. After Barcelona I would say that you can judge the car really. I always remember 2010 when the situation completely switched after summer break.

With a picture of Alonso on a profile its hard to take your opinion about Seb serious really.

not to forget to mention Webber in that avatar too ...
at least you are the objective Team Fan with your Avatar ...

[Ferrarichamp]

Guys instead of ping pong with comments about Ferrari drivers, can't you see that the problem is AGAIN mediocre car!?!?

true, and also mediocre pitwall/management it seems..

[killer]

Guys instead of ping pong with comments about Ferrari drivers, can't you see that the problem is AGAIN mediocre car!?!?

Been avoiding it but, crap, there's evidence thus far. Strategy hasn't been exactly inspiring either. Been around long enough to smell a stinker for what it is. Each race is like "what's it going to be this time?"

I still hope to be proven wrong.

[Vettel165]

not to forget to mention Webber in that avatar too ...
at least you are the objective Team Fan with your Avatar ...

Thank you for the support neighbour. I try to do my best to comment on a different situation in a objective and not biased way. Because I support one driver more than others. All drivers have their weaknesses, one is more prone under pressure, one needs the pressure, motivation to become faster. They are so different. Without the real mindset you cant succeed in f1. You can win one championship maybe by a ton of luck, but 4? Impossible.

Cheers and bring on Baku.

[killer]

Would they have been able to perform a miracle?

Neither would have needed to.

[Noquarter]

This will be the first decade in which Ferrari will not win any championships.

[Rishu]

Neither would have needed to.

+1

[ss-89]

So the car is poor in the slow speed corners which was evident in sector 3 we simply didn't have the speed going into the two hairpins before the straights compared to merc but could match or better them in the other sectors. Looking at Bahrain our car is strong in medium and high speed corners (and to the same extent barcelona). I think we will have a fairly strong package for Baku and will be back in contention for pole.

[Vittorio]

This will be the first decade in which Ferrari will not win any championships.

I know, it's actually quite pathetic when one realizes that. The Scuderia even won two constructor's championships during the 1980s, which was on the whole a pretty lacklustre decade for Ferrari. And I remember how painful that era was for tifosi, given that I've been a tifoso since 1977.

And don't get me started on Ferrari's obsession with team orders, even so early in a championship. It riles me beyond belief.

Being a fan of Ferrari is, for the most part, a series of heartbreaks.

[aroutis]

I know buddy its the French thing, you come from Canada and Charles speaks French. We know that you hate Seb because he is German and a fraud. We heard it already. Its the history, that we dont like one particular driver, even if he didnt do anything wrong. Like i dont like the British Lewis.Ban him...

Seb was quiet on the radio, he didnt ask for it. Today this forum will explode. Well at least we have a good discussion with some members.

Kitchener is in Ontario (been there, nice place). They speak English there. By no definition it's not the french thing. At least if you want to start attribute things start by knowing your map..

[wappad]

I disagree even though I am a huge Schumacher fan and rate Alonso as the 2nd best Ferrari driver in modern time. Would they have been closer to Hamilton? Yes, for sure, no doubts as Vettel is a lesser driver than both of them. Would they have been able to perform a miracle? No. Like I said, Lewis almost won by 100 points playing it safe and not even being pushed through the 2nd half of the year, I have no doubt Merc had lots to play with if needed. I can not reach any other conclusion. And yes, Hamilton performed excellent during the first half of the season, but Ferrari had a minor advantage at most during the first half.

For example, Hamilton was set for an easy win in the first race, before a virtual safety car gifted Vettel the win. And many people still claim that "OMG Ferrari was way faster than Mercedes from the first race" - when in reality Lewis would have won easily if no VSC came out. Thats just an example of people trying to re-write history. Its mostly Hamilton fans who wants to create the picture of Hamilton each year by himself wrestling an inferior car to the title even though there is no truth to it. And yet they fail to mention Hamilton is the only one of the BIG drivers that have lost a WDC to a teammate with a dominating car.

The Mercedes domination is far beyond the domination Ferrari had under the Schumacher era, its not even close, I remember seeing stats of it last season and its only gotten worse since then with Mercs advantage only increasing the last 10 races or so.
---
And now for the second myth - the reason Alonso could combat Vettel with a lesser car:

Answer: Vettel and Webber battled it out and were crashing out, having car failures all over the place, while Alonso just played it smart and kept his cool in midfield and gained ALOT of positions and points while the top dogs were battling each other and making silly mistakes and having mechanical retirements.

The fact is had Vettel and Webber just driven clean, Alonso would have had no chance whatsoever. Dont get me wrong, this is not a knock on Alonso. Alonso did perform AMAZINGLY well, but he still would not have stood a chance if the others had not made so many silly mistakes. And thats also one of the reasons why people are wrong when they claim Alonso would have won last years title. He would not, because Hamilton was not going to have multiple mechanical failures and other DNF by running off road or into other cars, which was key to Alonso being able to compete with Vettel in 2010 and 2012. And yeah, that means Hamilton is in an entire different ballgame than Vettel, not just on pace, but most of all with smartness and ability to stay out trouble and focus on the championship. Alonso were even superior to Schumacher in that regard, he was a genius on strategy and always cool and collected, never lost any points due to mistakes that could easily be avoided. Schumacher on the other was a hot head and threw away valuable points by his agressive driving.

What a nice read

Thanks for this!

[Noquarter]

I know, it's actually quite pathetic when one realizes that. The Scuderia even won two constructor's championships during the 1980s, which was on the whole a pretty lacklustre decade for Ferrari. And I remember how painful that era was for tifosi, given that I've been a tifoso since 1977.

And don't get me started on Ferrari's obsession with team orders, even so early in a championship. It riles me beyond belief.

Being a fan of Ferrari is, for the most part, a series of heartbreaks.

I support Ferrari since very difficult 1993. No competitor was as strong as now Mercedes. Williams and McLaren were overcome. Mercedes has unlimited funds, probably the best driver now that grew out of youthful mistakes, a very good technical department that has the answer to every Ferrari innovation. You must also say that in the same car Lewis would not have the slightest problems with defeating Sebastian. In recent years Ferrari lacked not only the speed of the car but also the outstanding driver. The title from 2000 can be better attributed to Schumacher's speed than the superiority of Ferrari to McLaren.

[maxc1]

Question for all of you great people.... What does anyone think about posting the high-res pics from each race in a (picture specific thread)? Could this be done? I page through all of the threads and like to use them for my laptop image! However, they are a bit difficult to find! LMK thoughts?

Thank you!

[Vittorio]

With a picture of Alonso on a profile its hard to take your opinion about Seb serious really. Still salty probably about 2010,2012. Mercedes still had a faster car in 17,18.

Says the guy whose profile name is Vettel65.

Just saying...

[tifosi1993]

Vettel is the #1 guy @ Ferrari . Since he's here he hasn't won. He's not driving #1 . Lewis is. Comparing Charles after 3 races with Seb is ridiculous. Tell Seb he's #2 driver for the next 3 races and has to move over for Charles if needed. Then compare how the races turn out. If the car causes a DNF , don't count it against either driver it happens to. Go another race. Charles is doing great at Ferrari since he started , Seb a 4x champion, is doing poorly @ Ferrari. He's not winning !

He's doing an exceptional job. Hypothetically speaking,

In Australia, without Ferrari's team order, Leclerc would've scored 12 points.
In Bahrain, without his bad luck, He would've easily won that race. So 25 points.
In China, yet another team order, without it Leclerc would've scored 15 points.

So the standings after the first three race, Leclerc 52 points - Vettel 30/32 points. Now reliability issues are part of the game and I wouldn't call them bad luck (well...from drivers POV, maybe it is bad luck), but not team-orders, our pitwall deliberately hindered Charles two times already. I seriously don't understand Ferrari/Binotto's fascination with Vettel? Can't they see they're losing points, not gaining it by imposing team orders.

[Vittorio]

I support Ferrari since very difficult 1993. No competitor was as strong as now Mercedes. Williams and McLaren were overcome. Mercedes has unlimited funds, probably the best driver now that grew out of youthful mistakes, a very good technical department that has the answer to every Ferrari innovation. You must also say that in the same car Lewis would not have the slightest problems with defeating Sebastian. In recent years Ferrari lacked not only the speed of the car but also the outstanding driver. The title from 2000 can be better attributed to Schumacher's speed than the superiority of Ferrari to McLaren.

True regarding just how dominant Mercedes have been in this era. Never seen anything like it for such a prolonged time for just one team since the late 1970s.

True regarding how Hamilton would probably have done a better job in the same Ferrari. I HATE having to admit that, as I'm hardly a Hamilton fan - but he is simply a better and more complete driver than Vettel.

True regarding how it was Schumacher himself who ultimately won the 2000 championship, rather than a 'dominant' Ferrari at the time. The Ferrari was really only dominant in 2002 and 2004 during those glorious Schumacher years that I miss so much.

And, my word, do I miss the Schumacher era. What a glorious time to be a tifoso. You just knew that Schumi would always be a contender, even when the car wasn't the best. Alonso had traces of that too but he was too wrapped up in his own ego most of the time.

Vettel simply doesn't have that ability or inspire that type of confidence in me as a tifoso - sorry, but he doesn't.

[Vittorio]

He's doing an exceptional job. Hypothetically speaking,

In Australia, without Ferrari's team order, Leclerc would've scored 12 points.
In Bahrain, without his bad luck, He would've easily won that race. So 25 points.
In China, yet another team order, without it Leclerc would've scored 15 points.

So the standings after the first three race, Leclerc 52 points - Vettel 30/32 points. Now reliability issues are part of the game and I wouldn't call them bad luck (well...from drivers POV, maybe it is bad luck), but not team-orders, our pitwall deliberately hindered Charles two times already. I seriously don't understand Ferrari/Binotto's fascination with Vettel? Can't they see they're losing points, not gaining it by imposing team orders.

I agree that Leclerc is doing a great job, all things considered. I'm very proud of him and very glad he's in the team.

This ongoing obsession by Ferrari's management and pitwall to keep making Vettel the de facto #1 is both strategically stupid and frankly undeserved. It makes me very angry because, no, I do not believe it is in the team's best interest to keep backing Vettel as the 'lead' driver. And to insist on doing it so early in the championship too. Ridiculous.

I'm frankly worried that an ambitious, super talented young star like Leclerc is just going to get demotivated if the team keeps deferring to Vettel. And that's not good for Ferrari.

My only hope is that Vettel leaves Ferrari at the end of this season, so that Leclerc can then be given free rein to be the excellent and smart racer that he is.

This 'second fiddle' nonsense was (barely) befitting of a Raikkonen in the decline of his career - it is NOT befitting of a superstar in the making such as Leclerc.

[FerrariF60]

True regarding just how dominant Mercedes have been in this era. Never seen anything like it for such a prolonged time for just one team since the late 1970s.

True regarding how Hamilton would probably have done a better job in the same Ferrari. I HATE having to admit that, as I'm hardly a Hamilton fan - but he is simply a better and more complete driver than Vettel.

True regarding how it was Schumacher himself who ultimately won the 2000 championship, rather than a 'dominant' Ferrari at the time. The Ferrari was really only dominant in 2002 and 2004 during those glorious Schumacher years that I miss so much.

And, my word, do I miss the Schumacher era. What a glorious time to be a tifoso. You just knew that Schumi would always be a contender, even when the car wasn't the best. Alonso had traces of that too but he was too wrapped up in his own ego most of the time.

Vettel simply doesn't have that ability or inspire that type of confidence in me as a tifoso - sorry, but he doesn't.

You and me both brotha.....you and me both

Pettel needs a rocketship like he had at red bull in order to win WDC’s; with a car like ferrari is providing him so far he’s nowhere at close racing if he’s NOT on pole in order for him to run into the sunset and win the race like he did while at red fools

He’s also nowhere at wheel to wheel racing....at least Alo was on fire in 2012 and almost won that WDC and put that mule of a car in plac3s that it did not deserve to be.....and his starts were lightning fast, always gaining 2-3 spots off the start if he wasn’t on pole.....

yeah Vettel165, he almost won that year in a car that wasn’t even close to the rocketship Pettel had....end of story

And had it NOT been for Crashjean stupid mistake in Spa, Alo would have had enough points to win the WDC that year in a mediocre car

And all of us would have praised Alo to this day for winning it....but it wasn’t meant to be I guess

[wisepie]

Seb was all over the back of Charles during the first stint and Max was catching. Ferrari had to make the swap as Seb did look like he was quicker at the time its easy in hindsight to look at it and say Seb wasn't much quicker than Charles and letting him through wasn't worth it but the team didn't know that at the time they would have been silly not to give it ago even if they didn't swap the cars Max would have still undercut one of the Ferraris most likely Seb as Charles would have been brought in first as the lead car just like in Bahrain. It was leaving Charles out on the hards for 6 laps to long during the second stint that ruined Charles race not the team order. If Ferrari had brought Charles in after Bottas passed him he would have been able to have a go at Max for the last few laps.

That's exactly the way I see it, too much fuss is being made over these 'team orders' when they had to try something as the Mercs were just cruising away in front.

[Vettel165]

yeah Vettel165, he almost won that year in a car that wasn’t even close to the rocketship Pettel had....end of story

And had it NOT been for Crashjean stupid mistake in Spa, Alo would have had enough points to win the WDC that year in a mediocre car

1. Who is Pettel, I would like to know that guy, a new driver perhaps?

2. RBR in 2012 wasnt dominant, not even close in first half of the season, with 7 different winners in 7 races. Guess who was leading the WDC after 4 races that year in a not dominant car after Bahrain 2012? Seb, even Lotus was faster on race in that race. They Webber, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel were extremely close in points before Valencia, guess what happened there? Seb retired because of issues while leading, Monza retired while having at least 10-12 points. After Singapore 2012 yes RBR but just in his hands was dominant, but before that Mclaren was the faster car with many reliability issues.

Championship standing without reliability issues in 2012.

1. Seb: 320 points
2. Alonso 271 points


3. Alonso did a major mistake in Japan 2012, which cost him the title. His penalty in Silverstone 2010 cost him also a lot, Monaco crash, Belgium crash, no where near to perfection.

4. Nobody is perfect, each driver has his weaknesses.

5. About this year what happened in reality?

Australia: Seb faster in qualy and in the first stint of the race, then was put on the bad strategy and more older tyres. He deserved his position infront of Charles.
Bahrain: Setup struggle with having problems with the soft tyres for Seb, Charles was keeping the tyres with a different setup more in a optimum temperature. Was faster the whole weekend, didnt obey team orders and passed Seb.
China: Seb slightly faster in qualy, and marginally 0,1-0,2s faster on average in the race. Ferrari did a major mistake to hold him up for so long. Lost a potential to take a fight to Bottas, similar critical mistake as Hockeheim 2018.

And thats it from my point of view.

[FerrariF60]

1. Who is Pettel, I would like to know that guy, a new driver perhaps?

2. RBR in 2012 wasnt dominant, not even close in first half of the season, with 7 different winners in 7 races. Guess who was leading the WDC after 4 races that year in a not dominant car after Bahrain 2012? Seb, even Lotus was faster on race in that race. They Webber, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel were extremely close in points before Valencia, guess what happened there? Seb retired because of issues while leading, Monza retired while having at least 10-12 points. After Singapore 2012 yes RBR but just in his hands was dominant, but before that Mclaren was the faster car with many reliability issues.

Championship standing without reliability issues in 2012.

1. Seb: 320 points
2. Alonso 271 points


3. Alonso did a major mistake in Japan 2012, which cost him the title. His penalty in Silverstone 2010 cost him also a lot, Monaco crash, Belgium crash, no where near to perfection.

4. Nobody is perfect, each driver has his weaknesses.

5. About this year what happened in reality?

Australia: Seb faster in qualy and in the first stint of the race, then was put on the bad strategy and more older tyres. He deserved his position infront of Charles.
Bahrain: Setup struggle with having problems with the soft tyres for Seb, Charles was keeping the tyres with a different setup more in a optimum temperature. Was faster the whole weekend, didnt obey team orders and passed Seb.
China: Seb slightly faster in qualy, and marginally 0,1-0,2s faster on average in the race. Ferrari did a major mistake to hold him up for so long. Lost a potential to take a fight to Bottas, similar critical mistake as Hockeheim 2018.

And thats it from my point of view.

maybe by some miracle we could have fought Bottas.....but somehow i don't think we had the pace even if Vet would have passed Charles (or charles be told let Vet through)....we just DID NOT have the pace to fight with the Mercs....period

until Ferrari fixes the issues we have with slow corner speed (both entry and exit), we are NOT gonna be in the same fight as the Mercs.....we're good in high speed stuff of the circuits, but NOT low speed....we're gonna get walloped in Monaco, singapre....if we dont' take actions and fix our weaknesses by then

[Vettel165]

until Ferrari fixes the issues we have with slow corner speed (both entry and exit), we are NOT gonna be in the same fight as the Mercs.....we're good in high speed stuff of the circuits, but NOT low speed....we're gonna get walloped in Monaco, singapre....if we dont' take actions and fix our weaknesses by then

Sadly a true fact, but all is not yet lost, we have to deliver really.

[Ferrarichamp]

did anyone read this?

https://www.pitpass.com/64404/Retire...ns-says-Vettel

[Giallo 550]

I agree that Leclerc is doing a great job, all things considered. I'm very proud of him and very glad he's in the team.

This ongoing obsession by Ferrari's management and pitwall to keep making Vettel the de facto #1 is both strategically stupid and frankly undeserved. It makes me very angry because, no, I do not believe it is in the team's best interest to keep backing Vettel as the 'lead' driver. And to insist on doing it so early in the championship too. Ridiculous.

I'm frankly worried that an ambitious, super talented young star like Leclerc is just going to get demotivated if the team keeps deferring to Vettel. And that's not good for Ferrari.

My only hope is that Vettel leaves Ferrari at the end of this season, so that Leclerc can then be given free rein to be the excellent and smart racer that he is.

This 'second fiddle' nonsense was (barely) befitting of a Raikkonen in the decline of his career - it is NOT befitting of a superstar in the making such as Leclerc.

Nailed it.